Originally posted by Greg Maddux's Biggest Fan
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Roy Halladay
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Originally posted by jjpm74 View PostThen you went on to say that he was extremely durable and made light of that fact while emphasizing his freak injury. He missed most of 2 peak years due to injuries. How is that a sign that he is durable and will not get injured again?
A) You can't blame a pitcher for lack of durability when he gets nailed with a line drive up the middle and breaks his leg. I emphasized to note that although he missed time in 2005 because of this, it was due to circumstances beyond his control; again NOT A DURABILITY ISSUE.
B) Since 2002, leading the league in IP 3 times and 3rd & 4th once is extremely durable. He's pitched more innings since 2002 than just about anyone. Yes, he had shoulder problems in 2004 which curtailed about 1/3 of the season, BUT IT HAPPENED JUST ONCE SINCE 2002! He's also leading MLB in IP this year.
What you're basically saying is that if a pitcher goes on the DL twice in 7 1/4 years (2005 DOES NOT count), then he's not durable (despite the fact he's pitched a ton of innings).
You make absolutely no sense.
The best measure of durability in IP, and Halladay has been superior. Thats the bottom line.
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Originally posted by Greg Maddux's Biggest Fan View PostOh my god, whats wrong with you??
A) You can't blame a pitcher for lack of durability when he gets nailed with a line drive up the middle and breaks his leg. I emphasized to note that although he missed time in 2005 because of this, it was due to circumstances beyond his control; again NOT A DURABILITY ISSUE.
B) Since 2002, leading the league in IP 3 times and 3rd & 4th once is extremely durable. He's pitched more innings since 2002 than just about anyone. Yes, he had shoulder problems in 2004 which curtailed about 1/3 of the season, BUT IT HAPPENED JUST ONCE SINCE 2002! He's also leading MLB in IP this year.
What you're basically saying is that if a pitcher goes on the DL twice in 7 1/4 years (2005 DOES NOT count), then he's not durable (despite the fact he's pitched a ton of innings).
You make absolutely no sense.
The best measure of durability in IP, and Halladay has been superior. Thats the bottom line.
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Originally posted by Greg Maddux's Biggest Fan View Post
A) You can't blame a pitcher for lack of durability when he gets nailed with a line drive up the middle and breaks his leg. I emphasized to note that although he missed time in 2005 because of this, it was due to circumstances beyond his control; again NOT A DURABILITY ISSUE.
B) Since 2002, leading the league in IP 3 times and 3rd & 4th once is extremely durable. He's pitched more innings since 2002 than just about anyone. Yes, he had shoulder problems in 2004 which curtailed about 1/3 of the season, BUT IT HAPPENED JUST ONCE SINCE 2002! He's also leading MLB in IP this year.
What you're basically saying is that if a pitcher goes on the DL twice in 7 1/4 years (2005 DOES NOT count), then he's not durable (despite the fact he's pitched a ton of innings).
You make absolutely no sense.
The best measure of durability in IP, and Halladay has been superior. Thats the bottom line.
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Originally posted by jjpm74 View PostI'm not. I'm simply stating that you cannot make base durability on 3-4 years then project that out and draw a conclusion that he will remain durable for another 6+ years which is what you are attempting to do. Productivity declines as one ages. It does not remain constant.
How does this show that he will not get injured down the road?
IN YOUR OPINION!
Sigh..... I never attempted to project anything. All I did was dispute your assertion that Halladay hasn't been durable. He has been and thats an indisputable fact.
And I fail to understand how pitching the most innings than almost anyone since he became a full time regular in 2002 shows anything other than outstanding durability. I hardly think using total IP thrown as a durability metric is a matter of personal opinion, unless you have a better way to measure durability that is.
Anyway, I think this back-and-forth ship has sailed. I appreciate your opinions JPM even if I completely disagree with them
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Originally posted by Greg Maddux's Biggest Fan View PostSigh..... I never attempted to project anything. All I did was dispute your assertion that Halladay hasn't been durable. He has been and thats an indisputable fact.
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We just had this thread. I have some patience with people not searching, but this one is so recent, you really ought to pay attention. Anyway, like all threads on the same player, this one's getting merged.Seen on a bumper sticker: If only closed minds came with closed mouths.
Some minds are like concrete--thoroughly mixed up and permanently set.
A Lincoln: I don't think much of a man who is not wiser today than he was yesterday.
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Originally posted by Jsquared83 View PostAnother complete game W for Halladay tonight. 133 pitches (ouch) but 14ks. Definitely the front runner for the AL Cy Young to this point. 4 more solid years and he's in.
Nevertheless, Halladay is having another superb season.
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I don't think so. Tommy John, and Blyleven, Luis Tiant with their totals can't even get elected. Neither can Jack Morris. Orel Herschiser has 204 wins, but is not in the hall. Halladay is a great pitcher, but at this time in his career even if he pitches until he's 38, and averages 17 wins, he might have reached 240 or so wins. I really don't see that happening. We have seen the last of the 300 game winners.I think Jamie Moyer would have a better shot. Great pitcher, but he'll have to buy a ticket to get in the HOF.Last edited by tony67; 06-03-2009, 09:50 AM.
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Originally posted by tony67 View PostI don't think so. Tommy John, and Blyleven, Luis Tiant with their totals can't even get elected. Neither can Jack Morris. Orel Herschiser has 204 wins, but is not in the hall. Halladay is a great pitcher, but at this time in his career even if he pitches until he's 38, and averages 17 wins, he might have reached 240 or so wins. I really don't see that happening. We have seen the last of the 300 game winners.I think Jamie Moyer would have a better shot. Great pitcher, but he'll have to buy a ticket to get in the HOF.
Plus, voters also look at W-L%, and Halladay's is much better than John's, Tiant's, or Blyleven. If Halladay continues on his current pace, he'll most likely have a resume that looks more impressive to the average HoF voter than those three.
Blyleven - 287-250 (.534), 0 Cy Youngs (2 Top-3 finishes)
Tiant - 229-172 (.571), 0 Cy Youngs (0 Top-3 finishes)
John - 288-231 (.555), 0 Cy Youngs (2 Top-3 finishes)
Halladay's W-L% is .676, will probably have more wins than Tiant, and he's already won a Cy Young and finished 3 times in the top-3. Even though he's probably only going to win 225-250 games, he's very likely to have a much better winning % than those three and be much more decorated.
Drysdale only needed 209 wins to get in the Hall. Guys who were thought of as great pitchers don't need the big win totals to make the Hall that guys like Glavine, Mussina, and Blyleven do.
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Originally posted by mwiggins View PostThen do you think Santana will make it? He's likely to not end up with too many more wins than Halladay. He's averaged 17 a season since he became a full time starter. 8 more years of that would put him at age 38 with about 245 wins. Guys with a dominant peak, who were thought of as one of the handful of best pitchers during their prime don't need as many wins as a guy like Glavine or Tommy John.
Plus, voters also look at W-L%, and Halladay's is much better than John's, Tiant's, or Blyleven. If Halladay continues on his current pace, he'll most likely have a resume that looks more impressive to the average HoF voter than those three.
Blyleven - 287-250 (.534), 0 Cy Youngs (2 Top-3 finishes)
Tiant - 229-172 (.571), 0 Cy Youngs (0 Top-3 finishes)
John - 288-231 (.555), 0 Cy Youngs (2 Top-3 finishes)
Halladay's W-L% is .676, will probably have more wins than Tiant, and he's already won a Cy Young and finished 3 times in the top-3. Even though he's probably only going to win 225-250 games, he's very likely to have a much better winning % than those three and be much more decorated.
Drysdale only needed 209 wins to get in the Hall. Guys who were thought of as great pitchers don't need the big win totals to make the Hall that guys like Glavine, Mussina, and Blyleven do.
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Originally posted by Jsquared83 View PostSantana is the closest pitcher in the game to having a Pedro-esque type peak, but with way more durability and has clearly been the best pitcher in the game overall for the last 5+ years. Barring a huge dropoff or career ending injury, 200 wins with anything near his current 146 ERA+ will make him a no brainer.
Though both still have a lot of work to do, at least they've made it through their 20's without the kind of issues that derailed guys like Gooden and Saberhagen.Last edited by mwiggins; 06-03-2009, 02:39 PM.
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