This is our fourteenth election in this project. The entire rules follow.
This election will run through 11:59:59 PM EDT June 19, 2009.
The prior election, and the ballots of the 1948 voters, are in this thread
Researcher/advocate/mod
This is our fourteenth election in this project. The entire rules follow.
This election will run through 11:59:59 PM EDT June 19, 2009.
The prior election, and the ballots of the 1948 voters, are in this thread
Seen on a bumper sticker: If only closed minds came with closed mouths.
Some minds are like concrete--thoroughly mixed up and permanently set.
Researcher/advocate/mod
Rules
1) All BBF users in good standing may participate. However, if there is more than one vote being cast from any one computer or IP, it must be cleared in advance. Should there be unannounced multiple votes from the same IP, I will investigate the circumstances, and all user names involved may be barred from this project as a result, and all but one of the multiple usernames permanently banned from the site. I only anticipate exceptions for family members living in the same home, but I will entertain requests on other bases. Please note that I and the other mods who participate in the project have the capability of determining the IP from which posts come, and I for one intend to monitor same. I have had to deal with a single user manipulating a project with multiple votes, and I don't intend to repeat the experience.
2) Elections will require a 10 voter quorum. If we do not get ten voters and there are candidate(s) who would be elected no matter what the voters needed to make a quorum did, those candidate(s) will be inducted. Otherwise, no one will be inducted. Further, if we fail to meet a quorum in two of any four consecutive elections, the project will end. If, for instance, we're doing fine on the player end but not the contributor end, I would drop the contributor end under this rule.
3) We will start in 1936, just as Cooperstown did. For the first election (1936), voters will rank their top 20, taking 10. After that we will go to having voters rank their top 12 players. Points awarded 12-11-10, etc. We will take the top five through 1940, then top three players per year elected until 2010, then two per year. If a voter does not number his selections, I will try to get him/her to do so. If they do not do so before the end of the election period, I may in my sole discretion invalidate the ballot. I have included this provision in order to ease the process of recording the votes. On another point, I know, the 1936 backlog is huge--but that was a historical issue they couldn't avoid, so neither will we.
4) We will also have a contributor ballot, which will elect one a year through 1985, then one every three (3) years. Contributors will be ranked 1 through 5, with points awarded 5-4-3-2-1. Voters may choose to participate in either one of the ballots or both.
5) It is permissible to vote for a candidate on both the contributor and player lists.
6) You are allowed to change your ballot at any time the ballot is open. However, if you change your ballot, you've got to notify me (jalbright) by PM or by a new post in the voting thread, or the changes likely will not be registered.
7) Players are eligible at the later of age 45 or the first year thereafter in which the player does not play. If the birthdate is not known, add five years to the first time the player misses a season and has less than 10 games the next season. There is an exception for early death, in which case the year of death plus two will be used if that yields an earlier date.
8) Contributors become eligible at age 65 or in the year of death plus two. whichever comes first.
9) Each election will run for approximately two weeks unless expressly altered by the project manager, contributors and players done simultaneously.
10) No one is excluded from being a candidate, regardless of the league they played in, except those elected in either the contributor or player ballots. At that point, they are removed from further consideration. If there are players who returned to the Negro Leagues or Japan after going to the majors, the departure from the majors will be their career end date for purposes of this project.
11) The standard for including a player on one's ballot is that the player must in the voter's opinion be among the very best eligible players (preferably the number voted on, but if a voter wishes to support someone they feel is 15th in a 12 person ballot instead of one of the top 12, it's too close for anyone to reasonably object. On the other hand, supporting the 25th best eligible candidate on a 12 person ballot is probably beyond the pale). I reserve the power to invalidate ballots which I do not feel are a reasonably knowledgeable, good faith effort to rank the players. One issue I am quite concerned about is that I do not want to see what clearly appear to be attempts to manipulate the ballot so as to elect a candidate. In isolation, I probably could live with this, but if it became a widely used tactic, the project would devolve into something I have no desire to be associated with. Moreover, I think that this position asks everyone else to cast legitimate votes so that you can manipulate the system to favor your pet candidates. I cannot accept that, as it strikes me as unfair to other voters. For example, you can't expect to favor even a legitimate HOF candidate like Bill Dahlen over Babe Ruth to get Dahlen elected without being asked to provide a reasonable justification for ranking Dahlen over Ruth. If you can provide a reasonable justification in that scenario, the ballot will stand. If not, you will be asked to make a change. Certainly, a reasonable justification does not indicate in essence simply that you want Dahlen elected. Furthermore, if I invalidate multiple ballots by the same individual as failing to meet this rule, that individual will forever lose the right to have his/her ballots counted. Voters are encouraged to consider character, sportsmanship, and compliance with the rules and spirit of baseball in their rankings of players.
12) I will post lists of eligible players and contributors before each election. If you have a question about the eligibility of a candidate, please ask. I will provide a list of future eligibility dates as well.
13) My eligibility lists come from all persons in the BBF HOF, BBTF Hall of Merit, and Cooperstown, plus all persons getting a vote in a BBF HOF election in the past year and a half or in a BBWAA election. This is a relatively comprehensive list, and thus I must request that if you want another candidate included, you provide some justification for why said candidate is worthy of getting a vote in this project. The main area I think this might come into play is if a voter supports a person who was eligible for the final selections from the recent pre WWII or Negro League committees but not on my master list. That fact alone would serve as ample justification for putting said candidate on the list. We may learn more about Cuban ball or what have you and thus include others after a case is made for them, however. The contributor list is undoubtedly not as comprehensive, and this fact will be taken into consideration.
14) Other than the sportsmanship and character issues, players are to be evaluated solely upon their play. I would prefer that if a player is qualified by his play standing alone that he be elected on that basis. However, a candidate may only be elected either as a contributor or a player, but not both. Contributors are the area where the entire body of work during his career in the sport, including his play, managing, scouting, executive, writing, broadcasting or other work in the sport is relevant. Contributors are to be ranked based on who the voter thinks is most worthy of induction into the Contributor group in this project.
15) Any ballot with two (2) or more spots unfilled with eligible candidates is invalid. In the event of the listing of ineligible names, I will try to notify the voter so that he/she can correct the ballot before the end of the voting period. If the change is made timely, it will count. If not, and there are two or more invalid names, the ballot will not be considered valid. If there is only one, the ineligible name will be stricken and all names after it on the affected ballot will be moved up one spot.
16) Any players listed beyond the 12th place for any ballot but the first (in which case it is 20th place) will be ignored. If more than one person is listed as tied for the last available place and the ballot is oversize, all names will be dropped, which may lead to the invalidation of the ballot.
17) Ties are not permitted in ballot listings. I reserve the right to invalidate ballots for use of ties in the rankings, be it within a single ballot or over the course of several ballots. If the voter does not correct such a listing voluntarily, except in the case of an oversize ballot tie for the last eligible place, if do not invalidate the ballot, I will choose the placement of the two "tied" candidates, generally preferring the candidate preferred by the other voters.
18) For any ties between candidates straddling the in/out line of selections, the first thing considered is the ranking of the candidates by the ballots cast. If there are more than two candidates tied, use a 3-2-1 or whatever is appropriate system. Once one person separates from the tied group, restart with the remaining candidates until there are only as many candidates as the rules call for being elected. If they remain tied after this process, the candidate with the most votes received wins. If it is still tied after that, those with the most #1 votes as the next step, then the most #2 votes and so on to see if that breaks the tie. If not, we will induct all candidates who remain tied at that point.
19) One thing we're going to have to be aware of is the timeline in the case of at least a few contributors. Two which jump out at me are Buck O'Neill, 1976, and Branch Rickey, 1946. I intend to eventually vote for both men, but in 1946, Jackie Robinson was still in Montreal. Really, Branch should wait until at least 1947 after Jackie's success in the majors to get credit for that move. If you think Rickey belongs in the top 5 in 1946 without his role in breaking the color line, that's fine--but he shouldn't get credit for that important success until it actually happened. Buck O'Neill did some important things up until 1976, but after that he was in Ken Burns' Baseball and he was instrumental in the establishment of the Negro Leagues Hall of Fame (both occurred in or around 1994). If you think he belongs based on accomplishments before those two things, that's perfectly acceptable, but please don't credit him with them before they actually happened.
20) I reserve the right to hold a Negro League special election in 2000 if we don't have a sufficient number in that category by then. These elections probably will be limited to voters I feel are appropriately versed on the group of players to be considered. I do wish to only use this as a last resort, however, and only to ensure that this group received what I regard as at least adequate bare minimum representation. I do not plan on sharing with you what I consider to meet those bare minimum standards, but I think that the number I am thinking of are well below the number of candidates that well informed observers believe are well qualified candidates from that group.
21) I will maintain a thread of the project's history and rules which will provide a listing of all elected candidates.
22) Feel free to ask questions by either sending jalbright a PM, or by posting a question in voting thread
Seen on a bumper sticker: If only closed minds came with closed mouths.
Some minds are like concrete--thoroughly mixed up and permanently set.
Researcher/advocate/mod
The players who become eligible in 1949 are:
On the contributor side, Billy Evans joins the list of eligiblesCode:Cissell , Bill Davis , Spud Foster , Willie Gibson , Josh Klein , Chuck Martin , Pepper Myer , Buddy West , Sam
Seen on a bumper sticker: If only closed minds came with closed mouths.
Some minds are like concrete--thoroughly mixed up and permanently set.
Researcher/advocate/mod
The 1948 player candidates who were not elected had these results in the that election:
The 1948 contributor candidates who were not elected had these results in the that election:Code:player…………….. votes points Waner, Paul 16 154 Wilson, Jud 12 66 Sisler , George 10 54 Collins , Jimmy 9 53 Clarke , Fred 10 52 Vance , Dazzy 9 45 Magee , Sherry 10 42 Jackson , Joe 4 37 Wheat , Zack 6 32 Radbourn , C 6 26 Start , Joe 4 22 Bennett , C 3 21 Traynor , Pie 4 21 Keeler , Willie 4 20 Johnson , HR 3 18 Lyons , Ted 3 18 Bell, Cool Papa 6 17 Groh , Heinie 4 17 Sutton , Ezra 2 17 Waddell , Rube 4 12 Coveleski , S 2 11 Stovey , Harry 3 11 Flick , Elmer 2 10 Joss , Addie 1 10 McPhee , Bid 3 10 Thompson , Sam 1 10 Mackey, Biz 2 9 Maranville , R 2 9 Carey , Max 2 8 Caruthers , B 2 8 Terry , Bill 3 8 Grant , Frank 2 6 Pearce , Dickey 2 6 Chance , Frank 1 5 Gore , George 1 5 Averill, Earl 1 4 Bresnahan , R 1 4 Rixey , Eppa 1 3 Browning , Pete 1 2 Hill , Pete….. 1 2 McGinnity , Joe 1 2 Tinker, Joe 1 2 Duffy , Hugh 1 1 Evers , Johnny 1 1 Galvin , Pud 1 1
I strongly suggest that you pay attention to this list, as the leaders of the holdovers are likely to join any strong newcomer candidates as the leaders for winning induction.Code:Contributor………. votes points Barrow , Ed 11 35 Cartwright , A 7 25 Reach , A. J. 10 22 Commiskey , C 6 18 Landis , K 7 18 Taylor , C. I. 2 9 Hanlon , Ned 4 8 Posey, Cum 3 8 Dunn , Jack 2 6 Pearce, Dickey 2 6 Caylor , O. P. 1 5 Spink, Albert 2 5 Clarke , Fred 1 4 Doubleday , A 1 2 Huggins , M 1 2 Conlan , C 1 1
Seen on a bumper sticker: If only closed minds came with closed mouths.
Some minds are like concrete--thoroughly mixed up and permanently set.
Researcher/advocate/mod
Members of the Best of Baseball Hall
Players
ContributorsCode:Pete Alexander Cap Anson Frank Baker Ross Barnes Dan Brouthers Mordecai Brown Jesse Burkett Oscar Charleston John Clarkson Ty Cobb Mickey Cochrane Eddie Collins Roger Connor Sam Crawford Bill Dahlen George Davis Ed Delahanty Buck Ewing Frankie Frisch Lou Gehrig Charlie Gehringer Goose Goslin Lefty Grove Billy Hamilton Gabby Hartnett Harry Heilmann Paul Hines Rogers Hornsby Carl Hubbell Walter Johnson Tim Keefe King Kelly Nap LaJoie Pop Lloyd Christy Mathewson Kid Nichols Jim O'Rourke Eddie Plank Bullet Joe Rogan Amos Rusie Babe Ruth Louis Santop Al Simmons Tris Speaker Turkey Stearnes Mule Suttles Cristobal Torriente Honus Wagner Ed Walsh John M. Ward Deacon White Smoky Joe Williams George Wright Cy Young
Code:Doc Adams Henry Chadwick Jim Creighton Rube Foster William Hulbert Ban Johnson Bill Klem Connie Mack John McGraw Francis Richter Branch Rickey Al Spalding Harry Wright
Seen on a bumper sticker: If only closed minds came with closed mouths.
Some minds are like concrete--thoroughly mixed up and permanently set.
Researcher/advocate/mod
The complete list of eligible players:
The complete list of eligible contributors:Code:Adams , Babe Adams , Sparky Altrock , Nick Archer , Jimmy Arlett , Buzz Austin , Jimmy Averill , Earl Bancroft , Dave Barry , Jack Battin , Joe Beaumont , Ginger Beckley , Jake Beckwith , John Bell , Cool Papa Bender , Chief Bennett , Charlie Benton , Larry Berg , Moe Bergen , Marty Berry , Charlie Bigbee , Carson Bishop , Max Blades , Ray Blue , Lu Bluege , Ossie Bodie , Ping Boley , Joe Bond , Tommy Bottomley , Jim Bradley , Bill Breitenstein , Ted Bresnahan , Roger Browning , Pete Burns , George J. Bush , Joe Bush , Donie Bush , Guy Cadore , Leon Camnitz , Howie Carey , Max Carrigan , Bill Caruthers , Bob Chance , Frank Chapman , Ray Chase , Hal Chesbro , Jack Childs , Cupid Cicotte , Eddie Cissell , Bill Clark , Watty Clarke , Fred Coakley , Andy Collins , Jimmy Collins , Shano Combs , Earle Conroy , Wid Coombs , Jack Cooper , Andy Cooper , Wilbur Coveleski , Stan Crandall , Doc Cravath , Gavvy Creighton , Jim Criger , Lou Critz , Hughie Cross , Lave Crowder , Al Cruise , Walt Cummings , Candy Cuyler , Kiki Daubert , Jake Davis , Curt Davis , Harry Davis , Spud Dinneen , Bill Doak , Bill Donlin , Mike Donovan , Bill Dooin , Red Doyle , Jack Doyle , Larry Duffy , Hugh Dugan , Joe Dunlap , Fred Dykes , Jimmy Earnshaw , George Ehmke , Howard Elberfeld , Kid Elliott , Jumbo Ens , Jewel Evers , Johnny Faber , Red Falkenberg , Cy Fitzsimmons , Freddie Fletcher , Art Flick , Elmer Fonseca , Lew Foster , Eddie Foster , Willie Fraser , Chick Galvin , Pud Gibson , Josh Glasscock , Jack Gleason , Kid Gonzalez , Mike Gore , George Gowdy , Hank Grant , Eddie Grant , Frank Grantham , George Griffith , Clark Grimes , Burleigh Grimm , Charlie Groh , Heinie Haas , Mule Hafey , Chick Hahn , Noodles Haines , Jesse Hallahan , Bill Hargrave , Bubbles Harris , Bucky Herman , Babe Herzog , Buck Hill , Pete Hinchman , Bill Hooper , Harry Hoyt , Waite Huggins , Miller Irwin , Charlie Jackman , Will Jackson , Joe Jennings , Hughie Johnson , Home Run Johnson , Judy Jones , Charley Jones , Fielder Jones , Sam P. Jordan , Tim Joss , Addie Judge , Joe Kamm , Willie Keeler , Willie Kelley , Joe Kerr , Dickie Killefer , Bill Kilroy , Matt Klein , Chuck Kling , Johnny Knabe , Otto Kremer , Ray Lange , Bill Larkin , Henry Latham , Arlie Lazzeri , Tony Leach , Freddy Leach , Tommy Leever , Sam Lewis , Duffy Lobert , Hans Long , Herman Lowe , Bobby Lucas , Red Lundy , Dick Luque , Dolf Lyons , Denny Lyons , Ted Mackey , Biz Magee , Sherry Manush , Heinie Maranville , Rabbit Marberry , Firpo Marquard , Rube Martin , Pepper Mathews , Bobby Mays , Carl McAleer , Jimmy McCarthy , Tommy McCormick , Jim McGinnity , Joe McGowan , Bill McInnis , Stuffy McLean , Larry McManus , Marty McPhee , Bid McVey , Cal Meadows , Lee Mendez , Jose Meusel , Bob Milan , Clyde Miller , Bing Miller , Dots Miller , Hack Monroe , Bill Moore , Dobie Moran , Pat Mostil , Johnny Mullane , Tony Murphy , Danny Murray , Red Myer , Buddy Nehf , Art O'Doul , Lefty Oeschger , Joe O'Farrell , Bob O'Leary , Charlie Oms , Alejandro O'Neill , Steve O'Neill , Tip Orr , Dave Pabor , Charlie Paskert , Dode Pearce , Dickey Peckinpaugh , Roger Peitz , Heinie Pennock , Herb Perdue , Hub Perkins , Cy Phillippe , Deacon Pike , Lip Pipp , Wally Poles , Spotswood Pruett , Hub Quinn , Jack Radbourn , Charlie Raymond , Bugs Redding , Dick Remsen , Jack Rice , Sam Richardson , Hardy Ring , Jimmy Ritchey , Claude Rixey , Eppa Robertson , Dave Rommel , Eddie Root , Charlie Roush , Edd Rucker , Nap Rudolph , Dick Ruel , Muddy Ryan , Jimmy Schacht , Al Schaefer , Germany Schalk , Ray Schang , Wally Schreckengost , Ossie Schulte , Frank Scott , Everett Scott , Jack Severeid , Hank Sewell , Joe Sewell , Luke Seymour , Cy Sheckard , Jimmy Sherdel , Bill Shocker , Urban Sisler , George Smith , Earl Smith , Sherry Sparks , Tully Stahl , Jake Start , Joe Steinfeldt , Harry Stephenson , Riggs Stovey , Harry Street , Gabby Sukeforth , Clyde Sutton , Ezra Sweeney , Bill Tannehill , Jesse Taylor , Ben Tenney , Fred Terry , Bill Thevenow , Tommy Thomas , Ira Thompson , Sam Tiernan , Mike Tinker , Joe Toney , Fred Traynor , Pie Turner , Terry Uhle , George Van Haltren , George Vance , Dazzy Veach , Bobby Waddell , Rube Walberg , Rube Wallace , Bobby Wambsganss , Bill Waner , Paul Warfield , Frank Welch , Mickey West , Sam Wheat , Zack White , Sol White , Will Whitehill , Earl Williams , Cy Williams , Ken Williamson , Ned Willis , Vic Wilson , Hack Wilson , Jimmie Wilson , Jud Witt , Whitey Wood , Joe Wright , Glenn Yerkes , Steve Youngs , Ross Zachary , Tom Zimmer , Chief
Code:Abe , Iso Bancroft , Frank Barrow , Ed Bolden, Ed Bulkely , Morgan Carrigan, Bill Cartwright , Alexander Caylor , O. P. Chance , Frank Clarke , Fred Commiskey , Charlie Conlan , Charles Connolly , Tom Cooper , Andy Cummings , Candy Dinneen , Bill Doubleday , Abner Dreyfuss , Barney Dunn , Jack Elias , Al Munro Evans, Billy Foster , John B. Fullerton , Hugh Gleason , Kid Griffith , Clark Hanlon , Ned Harridge, Willie Hillerich , John Huggins , Miller Jennings , Hughie Krichell, Paul Landis , Kenesaw Lardner , Ring Leavitt, Jr. , Charles W. McCarthy , Tommy Mendez , Jose Mills , A. G. Moran , Pat Mutrie , Jim Navin , Frank Norworth, Jack Osborn , Frank Posey, Cum Reach , A. J. Rice, Grantland Robinson , Wilbert Ruppert , Jacob Selee , Frank Shibe , Ben Spink, Albert Stallings , George Street, Gabby Taylor , C. I. Thayer , Ernest Warfield , Frank White , Sol Wilkinson , J. L. Wilson , Horace
Seen on a bumper sticker: If only closed minds came with closed mouths.
Some minds are like concrete--thoroughly mixed up and permanently set.
Researcher/advocate/mod
My ballot:
Players
1. Josh Gibson
2. Paul Waner
3. Sherry Magee
4. Zack Wheat
5. Jud Wilson
6. Fred Clarke
7. Dazzy Vance
8. Harry Stovey
9. Ted Lyons
10. Cool Papa Bell
11. Joe McGinnity
12. Rube Waddell
Contributors
1. Ed Barrow
2. Kennesaw Landis
3. Miller Huggins
4. Ned Hanlon
5. Cum Posey
Josh Gibson moves to the top of my ballot and Joe McGinnity returns. I've moved to Rube Waddell as he's getting more support than either Grimes or Galvin right now. They will reappear in due time. I wish I had a spot for Willie Foster, but not yet. I'm also close on adding Grant "Home Run" Johnson, though with the classes we've got coming up, he may wait a while.
Last edited by jalbright; 06-06-2009 at 07:34 AM.
Seen on a bumper sticker: If only closed minds came with closed mouths.
Some minds are like concrete--thoroughly mixed up and permanently set.
Researcher/advocate/mod
Josh Gibson
He was a very crucial contributor on quite a few champions--the Crawfords and the Grays dynasty chief among them. I count four Negro League world series champs and several more pennant winners. Add to that a title in Cuba and in the 1937 Dominican, that's quite a few. He was in the Negro League all-star game 13 times. He won 11 Negro League HR titles, 1 such title in Mexic0 and 2 in Puerto Rico. He added batting titles in the 37 Dominican, Puerto Rico and one in the Negro Leagues. That's a heck of a resume.
He certainly had a long career for a catcher, 18 years. He played 2 years in Mexico in the summer, 16 in American Negro Leagues. He also played in some winter leagues. In the American Negro Leagues, Holway's data has him leading his league in average once, and in the top five five times. Holway's data has him with the most homers in American Negro Leagues 11 times, and in the top 3 14 times. He also led in homers once in Mexico and was second another time. He was on a Negro League all-star team in nine seasons, and Holway rates him worthy of two more before that game began. Gibson certainly played for winning teams, 12 American Negro League pennant winners, 2 Mexican league pennant winners, 1 Cuban Champ, and one Puerto Rican Winter League playoff team. Gibson hit .393 in his two years in Mexico, slugged .802, and had an OBP of .495. In Puerto Rico, he averaged .355 and homered at a rate of 27 HR per 550 AB. In the sources I've consulted, the lowest American Negro League average he had for his career is .351, and his lowest rate of homers per 550 AB for his American Negro Leagues career is 38.8 homers despite playing much of his American Negro League career in a terrible home run park, Griffith Stadium in Washington, D. C. (where the Senators played). So, in his own environment, Gibson clearly hit for high average and tremendous power, not even considering he was a catcher.
We can look at how Negro Leaguers who were Gibson's contemporaries performed in the majors (the data I've seen suggest that a Negro League home run was just as hard to come by in one place as another, but that Negro League averages were significantly higher, maybe as much as 15%. Even so, that would suggest Gibson was a career .300+ hitter with over 35 HR power per 550 AB. His Mexican walk rate suggests he had good plate discipline, so he should have been at least above average in that regard in the majors, looking at the evidence we have. Holway suggests Gibson was a MVP six times in the American Negro Leagues, while Bill James says five. Either way, a guy with that profile would be winning some MVPs if he had any talent around him, because he'd make almost any team better. Contemporary and expert opinion, even guys who were in the majors, suggests all the above conclusions as to Gibson's talent are valid.
The reports of Gibson's catching prowess are positive, though they may be a bit overblown. However, given that Negro League teams bunted a lot and stole a lot, and that if a guy with Gibson's talent with the bat wasn't much defensively as a catcher, it would make a lot of sense to move him to another spot where his career would likely be longer, especially since he caught for championship teams, I think you've got to credit him with being at least a solid defensive catcher. Basically, the evidence all points to a high average, high power hitting with good plate discipline guy who is also at least a solid catcher defensively over a long career with championship teams.
Seen on a bumper sticker: If only closed minds came with closed mouths.
Some minds are like concrete--thoroughly mixed up and permanently set.
Registered User
Contributors
1 Comiskey
2 Reach
3 Posey
4 Hanlon
5 Barrow
Thus among the builders of teams, I am going with Comiskey, Posey, Hanlon, and Barrow ahead of Selee, Griffith, Taylor, and Wilkinson --and perhaps someday Al Spink, Frank Bancroft, Sol White, or Jack Dunn. Except for Comiskey whose early stardom as player/captain of the Browns distinguishes him from the others, my priorities are governed largely by who seems to have bandwagon potential at this stage. For example, a heavyweight just climbed aboard for Posey, so we should soon be rolling.
Fred Clarke's career as a player alone warrants election a few years ago, in my opinion, which everyone here must know. His work as captain/manager/gm is significant but so dwarfed by his stature as a player that I won't vote for him here. That contrasts with my double votes for Ward in the past and perhaps for Griffith in the future. Clarke's resume is really unbalanced.
Last edited by Paul Wendt; 06-06-2009 at 08:16 AM.
Registered User
01. Josh Gibson
02. Paul Waner
03. Dazzy Vance
04. Fred Clarke
05. Sherry Magee
06. Rube Waddell
07. Jimmy Collins
08. Joe Jackson
09. Ted Lyons
10. Cool Papa Bell
11. George Sisler
12. Rabbit Maranville
01. Charles Comiskey
02. Ed Barrow
03. Cum Posey
04. Alexander Cartwright
05. Ned Hanlon
Researcher/advocate/mod
I'm with you in general on Clarke--he's well qualified. Here's what I wrote about him when I pushed him at the BBF HOF project:Originally Posted by Paul Wendt
In Cooperstown, the Baseball Think Factory "Hall of Merit" and our own Timeline project's hall. He has 400 win shares, 6th among left fielders listed in the BJHA and 44th best all time among all players in the Win Shares book. He also had 160 gray ink points, good for 70th among hitters. He accomplished this while spending the vast majority of his career as a player/manager. I might add that 8 of his 10 most similar players listed by baseball-reference.com are in Cooperstown.
Seen on a bumper sticker: If only closed minds came with closed mouths.
Some minds are like concrete--thoroughly mixed up and permanently set.
1. Paul Waner
2. Sherry Magee
3. Pie Traynor
4. Heinie Groh
5. Max Carey
6. Frank Chance
7. Rabbit Marranville
8. Bid McPhee
9. Joe Tinker
10. Johnny Evers
11. Roger Bresnahan
12. George Sisler
1. Charles Comiskey
2. Ed Barrow
3. Jack Dunn
4. A.J. Reach
5. Alfred Spink
Registered User
Here are some Hall of Merit rankings at leftfield
6. Simmons
8. Clarke
12. Magee
14. Wheat
17. Goslin
"Everyone" may agree that there is a big gap between 6 Simmons and 7 Burkett, but we may be out on a limb alone in promptly electing Goslin while Clarke --and Magee and Wheat-- are merely strong contenders (albeit sure things as time goes by).
By the way, ranks 13 and 16 at the Hall of Merit are Jimmy Sheckard and Joe Kelley who have no support here yet.
Researcher/advocate/mod
Since I'm voting for Cum Posey, I might as well remind those who do know about him and fill in the rest on his claims to fame:
From pages 636-638 Riley's Biographical Encyclopedia of the Negro Leagues:
.The man who could properly be called the father of the Homestead Grays, his association with the ballclub had roots reaching virtually to the team's inception, and his genius made the Grays a successful franchise. Beginning as a player, he rose through the ranks, proogressing to manager, booking agent, business manager and owner of the ballclub . . . .
[I]n 1912 Posey took charge [of the Grays] and began booking enough games to permit the players to devote all their time to playing baseball.
Within the the next decade the Homestead Grays were the biggest attraction in independent baseball . . . . As more teams appeared, they patterned their operations after Posey's Grays. Posey's dynamic leadership kept the Grays near the top ot the talent pool, and under his guidance they became a team of major-league quality and a dominant dynasty in the Negro Leagues
[Until 1929] Posey split his time between playing and managing [in addition to running the team]. In 1929 he ended his career as an active player and became a bench manager until turning the team over to Vic Harris in 1937 and concentrating on the business end of the Grays . . . .
[W]hen the [American Negro League] folded [in 1930], he returned [the Grays] to independent play, picking up some more stars, including Oscar Charleston, Josh Gibson and Judy Johnson. . . .
Posey . . . had built a powerhouse by signing players from other teams, [but now] became the target for Gus Greenlee's similar tactics. Posey lost Charleston, Gibson and Johnson among other players to Greenlee's Pittsburgh Crawfords because he could not match Greenlee's salaries . . . . [With new financial backing] Posey . . . [eventually] lured Gibson back into the fold to form a dynamic power duo with Buck Leonard.
Posey continued to corral top players, keeping the Grays the class of the league [to the time of his death]
Seen on a bumper sticker: If only closed minds came with closed mouths.
Some minds are like concrete--thoroughly mixed up and permanently set.
Registered User
1. Josh Gibson
2. Paul Waner
3. Jud Wilson
4. Ted Lyons
5. Elmer Flick
6. Dazzy Vance
7. Willie Foster
8. Home Run Johnson
9. Fred Clarke
10. Pete Hill
11. Heinie Groh
12. Hughie Jennings
Team Veteran
Players:
1. Josh Gibson
2. Stan Coveleski
3. Charlie Bennett
4. Jimmy Collins
5. Ezra Sutton
6. George Sisler
7. Bob Caruthers
8. Roger Bresnahan
9. Dickey Pearce
10. Sherry Magee
11. Jud Wilson
12. Paul Waner
Contributers:
1. O.P. Caylor
2. Ed Barrow
3. A.J. Reach
4. Charles Commiskey
5. Cum Posey
Registered User
Players:
1. Josh Gibson
2. Ezra Sutton
3. Joe Start
4. Jimmy Collins
5. Paul Waner
6. Charlie Bennett
7. Rabbit Maranville
8. George Sisler
9. Jud Wilson
10. Pie Traynor
11. Cool Papa Bell
12. Ted Lyons
Contributors:
1. Cum Posey
2. C. I. Taylor
3. Charley Comiskey
4. Al Reach
5. Dickey Pearce
2004 & 2007
1. Josh Gibson
2. Paul Waner
3. Jud Wilson
4. Jimmy Collins
5. George Sisler
6. Zack Wheat
7. Willie Foster
8. Cool Papa Bell
9. Old Hoss Radbourn
10. Fred Clarke
11. Biz Mackey
12. Frank Grant
Contributors:
1. C. I. Taylor
2. Ed Barrow
3. A.J. Reach
4. Al Spink
5. Cum Posey
2004 & 2007
Here's a little info I've gathered on Negro League pitcher Willie Foster;
Willie (Bill) Foster, LHP:
NeL Career Stats according to SABR’s HOF study, found in the book Shades of Glory;
G 291 W 143 L 69 IP 1859.7 ER 495 K 1013 BB 516 WP 16 HB 36 SV 17 ERA 2.40
Elected to the HOF in 1996: http://www.baseballhalloffame.org/ho...layerId=492565
Elected to BBTF's HOM: http://www.baseballthinkfactory.org/...on/bill_foster
Named the NeL's best pitcher three times by Bill James in his Historical Baseball Abstract book for 1927, 1931 and 1932. Also named winner of "The George Stovey Award" (NeL version of a Cy Young) in John Holway's, The Complete Book of Baseball's Negro Leagues for 1927, 1931 and 1932. http://www.baseball-fever.com/archiv...p/t-36139.html
According to Negro League Historian John Holway, Foster’s record was;
W 160 L 76 http://baseballguru.com/jholway/analysisjholway57.html
Willie Foster is widely considered the greatest left-handed pitcher from the Negro Leagues. Those that saw him describe Foster as an intelligent power pitcher with near-perfect control. His pitch selection included a fastball, change-up, curve as well as a side arm curve and a slider.
Here’s some quotes about Foster;
“Willie Foster was the greatest left-hander that I ever played with. He could have made history if he could have played in the Big Leagues." -Double Duty Radcliffe
"All the years I played, I never got a hit off him. He threw fire." - Buck Leonard
"If I could paint you white I could get $150,000 for you right now." - Charlie Gehringer
"Willie Foster's greatness was that he had this terrific speed and a great, fast-breaking curveball and a drop ball, and he was really a master of the change-of-pace. He could throw you a real fast one and then use the same motion and bring it up a little slower, and then a little slower yet. And then he'd use the same motion again, and Z-zzz. He was really a great pitcher." - Dave Malarcher
Last edited by Dogdaze; 06-06-2009 at 11:06 PM.
Registered User
Players
1. Josh Gibson
2. Paul Waner
3. Sam Thompson
4. Chuck Klein
5. Joe Jackson
6. George Sisler
7. Harry Stovey
8. Willie Keeler
9. Bill Terry
10. Charley Radbourn
11. Pete Browning
12. Cool Papa Bell
Contributors
1. Kenesaw Landis
2. Alexander Cartwright
3. Abner Doubleday
4. Charles Commiskey
5. Charles Conlon
1. Josh Gibson
2. Paul Waner
3. George Sisler
4. Jimmy Collins
5. Hoss Radbourne
6. Fred Clarke
7. Pie Traynor
8. Bob Caruthers
9. Willie Keeler
10. Stan Coveleski
11. Bill Terry
12. Dazzy Vance
cleared up a few "omissions" swapped Clarke into Averill's spot (and put him ahead of Traynor for good measure) and plugged in Keeler and Coveleski.
1. AJ Reach
2. Albert Spink
3. Barrow
4. Landis
5. Hanlon
Registered User
1 Josh Gibson
2 Paul Waner
3 Fred Clarke
4 Jud Wilson
5 Jimmy Collins
6 Dazzy Vance
7 Zack Wheat
8 Joe Start
9 George Sisler
10 Sherry Magee
11 Ted Lyons
12 Bid McPhee
Eradicate, wipe out and abolish redundancy.
Free El Duque! -- discover how the HOF rules are cheating this renowned member of Torre's Yankees dynasty and ask the HOF to include him on the ballot for the next BBWAA election.
Registered User
1 Joe Jackson
2 Addie Joss
3 Josh Gibson
4 George Sisler
5 Dazzy Vance
6 Bid McPhee
7 Willie Keeler
8 Elmer Flick
9 Rube Waddell
10 Bill Terry
11 Chuck Klien
12 Pie Traynor
Researcher/advocate/mod
We now have a quorum on the player side, and one more contributor ballot will make a quorum on that side as well.
Seen on a bumper sticker: If only closed minds came with closed mouths.
Some minds are like concrete--thoroughly mixed up and permanently set.
Registered User
1. Josh Gibson
2. Paul Waner
3. Charlie Bennett
4. Zack Wheat
5. Dazzy Vance
6. Pud Galvin
7. Jimmy Collins
8. Rube Waddell
9. Ezra Sutton
10. Fred Clarke
11. Sherry Magee
12. Joe McGinnity
1. Alexander Cartwright
2. Ed Barrow
3. Kennesaw Landis
4. Ned Hanlon
5. Charles Comiskey
In response to a user inquiring about me having Mr. Bennett at #2 in the 1945 election (which I was unable to reply to due to my computer having its final meltdown), I have him ranked highly because I think he deserves more attention and will receive an extra push if he appears higher in the yearly voting results. It's a case of him being the most underrated so far in my humble opinion. The same can be said of Pud Galvin who has really seen his support dwindle.
1955 1959 1963 1965 1981 1988
1889 1890 1899 1900 1916 1920
1941 1947 1949 1952 1953 1956
1966 1974 1977 1978
1983 1985 1995 2004 2008 2009
1996 2006
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