View Poll Results: Should Don Kessinger be in the Hall of Fame?

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  • Yes

    2 4.35%
  • No

    43 93.48%
  • Maybe

    1 2.17%
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Thread: Don Kessinger

  1. #1

    Don Kessinger

    Offensively, Don Kessinger wasn't very good. He hit only .252 with an OPS+ of 73. And yet, he managed to make the All-Star team six times, so people must have thought he was pretty talented. He won two Gold Gloves at shortstop, and he led all shortstops in putouts three times, assists four times, double plays four times, and fielding percentage once. He also once had a 54 game errorless streak.

    Statistically, Kessinger is offensively similar to one Hall of Famer: Johnny Evers. He is also similar to Alfredo Griffin, Larry Bowa, Roger Peckinpaugh, Bill Russell, Kid Gleason, Roy McMillan, Ozzie Guillen, Tony Taylor and Joe Quinn.

    In his first and only year of Hall of Fame eligibility in 1985, he received two votes.

    So, should Kessinger be in the Hall of Fame? Does his defensive ability make up for his offensive lacking?
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  2. #2

  3. #3
    Quote Originally Posted by Cowtipper View Post
    Offensively, Don Kessinger wasn't very good. He hit only .252 with an OPS+ of 73. And yet, he managed to make the All-Star team six times, so people must have thought he was pretty talented. He won two Gold Gloves at shortstop, and he led all shortstops in putouts three times, assists four times, double plays four times, and fielding percentage once. He also once had a 54 game errorless streak.

    Statistically, Kessinger is offensively similar to one Hall of Famer: Johnny Evers. He is also similar to Alfredo Griffin, Larry Bowa, Roger Peckinpaugh, Bill Russell, Kid Gleason, Roy McMillan, Ozzie Guillen, Tony Taylor and Joe Quinn.

    In his first and only year of Hall of Fame eligibility in 1985, he received two votes.

    So, should Kessinger be in the Hall of Fame? Does his defensive ability make up for his offensive lacking?

    Are you serious here?

    Why don't we run a poll and see if George Theodore is a hall of famer?

    Kessinger is nowhere near similar offensively to Johnny Evers, who had a career OPS+ of 106. Evers also played in 300 less games than Kessinger, played his entire career in the deadball era, and still scored more runs and had more RBIs than Kessinger, who had hall of fame hitters Banks and Williams and also Santo hitting behind him.

    Johnny Evers was an excellent player who is not far from being a hall of fame level player, and is in the Cooperstwon hall. Kessinger is just a good regular.

    WIN SHARES CAREER
    Kesinger - 159
    Evers - 268

    TOP THREE SEASONS
    Kessinger - 23, 15, 14
    Evers - 28, 27, 27 (in shorter seasons, too)

    WS per 162
    Kessinger - 12.40
    Evers - 24.34

    Evers was almost twice as valuable per game as Kessinger was.

  4. #4
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    Kessinger was a poor man's Mark Belanger.

  5. #5
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    Defensively, I get this card for Kessinger:
    Code:
    Ps	Yr	EqG	Wins	PCA-BA
    SS	1968	158	4.61	0.318
    SS	1969	156	4.24	0.309
    SS	1970	152	3.97	0.304
    SS	1972	143	3.71	0.303
    SS	1976	103	2.07	0.277
    SS	1967	138	2.57	0.271
    SS	1979	32	0.60	0.271
    SS	1971	152	2.85	0.271
    SS	1973	157	2.58	0.261
    SS	1978	109	1.57	0.252
    2B	1976	25	0.37	0.249
    SS	1965	101	1.35	0.248
    SS	1975	131	1.28	0.231
    SS	1966	142	1.33	0.230
    SS	1974	144	0.58	0.206
    If by poor man's Mark Belanger, you mean the Mark Belanger you would buy if you were unemployed during the great depression...maybe.

  6. #6
    So...is that a no?
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  7. #7
    Quote Originally Posted by SavoyBG View Post
    Are you serious here?

    Why don't we run a poll and see if George Theodore is a hall of famer?
    Because he only played two seasons.


    Kessinger is nowhere near similar offensively to Johnny Evers, who had a career OPS+ of 106. Evers also played in 300 less games than Kessinger, played his entire career in the deadball era, and still scored more runs and had more RBIs than Kessinger, who had hall of fame hitters Banks and Williams and also Santo hitting behind him.

    Johnny Evers was an excellent player who is not far from being a hall of fame level player, and is in the Cooperstwon hall. Kessinger is just a good regular.

    WIN SHARES CAREER
    Kesinger - 159
    Evers - 268

    TOP THREE SEASONS
    Kessinger - 23, 15, 14
    Evers - 28, 27, 27 (in shorter seasons, too)

    WS per 162
    Kessinger - 12.40
    Evers - 24.34

    Evers was almost twice as valuable per game as Kessinger was.
    Don't blame me, blame Baseball Reference.
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  8. #8
    I know Mr. Kessinger somewhat well from my 7 years spent in Oxford, MS. Excellent human being, but a Hall of Famer....

    NO WAY IN HELL

  9. #9
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    Quote Originally Posted by SABR Matt View Post
    Defensively, I get this card for Kessinger:
    Code:
    Ps	Yr	EqG	Wins	PCA-BA
    SS	1968	158	4.61	0.318
    SS	1969	156	4.24	0.309
    SS	1970	152	3.97	0.304
    SS	1972	143	3.71	0.303
    SS	1976	103	2.07	0.277
    SS	1967	138	2.57	0.271
    SS	1979	32	0.60	0.271
    SS	1971	152	2.85	0.271
    SS	1973	157	2.58	0.261
    SS	1978	109	1.57	0.252
    2B	1976	25	0.37	0.249
    SS	1965	101	1.35	0.248
    SS	1975	131	1.28	0.231
    SS	1966	142	1.33	0.230
    SS	1974	144	0.58	0.206
    If by poor man's Mark Belanger, you mean the Mark Belanger you would buy if you were unemployed during the great depression...maybe.
    A homeless man's Mark Belanger?

  10. #10
    Common Cowtipper, you were doing so well lately with picks that at least could be conceivable to a HOF discussion. This is no where close to being worthy of one. Worse than the Tommy Herr thread which was pretty bad in of itself

    I never thought in a million years a player with a 73 career OPS+ playing at Wrigley Field & a career high BA of .274 with no special skills would ever be mentioned as a candidate on this thread - so I guess I've seen it all over here.
    Last edited by Greg Maddux's Biggest Fan; 06-27-2009 at 07:30 AM.

  11. #11
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    Bambam,

    Your reaction was a series of rofl icons--yet you're recorded by the poll as voting for Kessinger's induction? Is that a mistake, or what?
    Seen on a bumper sticker: If only closed minds came with closed mouths.
    Some minds are like concrete--thoroughly mixed up and permanently set.
    A Lincoln: I don't think much of a man who is not wiser today than he was yesterday.

  12. #12
    Quote Originally Posted by jalbright View Post
    Bambam,

    Your reaction was a series of rofl icons--yet you're recorded by the poll as voting for Kessinger's induction? Is that a mistake, or what?
    Mistake. Shoulda been no!

  13. #13
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    Quote Originally Posted by jalbright View Post
    Bambam,

    Your reaction was a series of rofl icons--yet you're recorded by the poll as voting for Kessinger's induction? Is that a mistake, or what?
    Quote Originally Posted by bambambaseball View Post
    Mistake. Shoulda been no!
    I guess it's easy to mis-click when you're ROFL!!

  14. #14
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    Quote Originally Posted by bambambaseball View Post
    Mistake. Shoulda been no!
    I corrected it, though your name probably won't show anywhere now.
    Seen on a bumper sticker: If only closed minds came with closed mouths.
    Some minds are like concrete--thoroughly mixed up and permanently set.
    A Lincoln: I don't think much of a man who is not wiser today than he was yesterday.

  15. #15
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cowtipper View Post
    So, should Kessinger be in the Hall of Fame? Does his defensive ability make up for his offensive lacking?
    No and no.
    "The value of a stat is directly proportional to how good it makes Steve Garvey look." -- Nerdlinger

  16. #16

    LaMarr Hoyt What if?

    Oops. Please delete

  17. #17
    Quote Originally Posted by bambambaseball View Post
    Oops. Please delete
    LaMarr Hoyt was the man.
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  18. #18
    Quote Originally Posted by Cowtipper View Post
    LaMarr Hoyt was the man.
    He was. I meant to start a new thread about him but accidentally hit reply to your thread first. Sorry about that!

  19. #19
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    Amongst players who logged at least 1000 games at SS, Kessinger is amongst the Bottom Ten in offensive production.
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  20. #20
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    Quote Originally Posted by KCGHOST View Post
    Amongst players who logged at least 1000 games at SS, Kessinger is amongst the Bottom Ten in offensive production.
    Lowest OPS+, 1000+ games at SS
    Code:
      Cnt Player            OPS+  RC    PA  From  To
    +----+-----------------+----+----+-----+----+----+
        1 Bobby Wine          55  226  3467 1960 1972 
        2 Dal Maxvill         57  271  3898 1962 1975 
        3 Joe DeMaestri       62  294  3678 1951 1961 
        4 Neifi Perez         64  567  5510 1996 2007 
        5 Tim Foli            64  526  6573 1970 1985 
        6 Ed Brinkman         65  495  6640 1961 1975 
        7 Everett Scott       65  505  6373 1914 1926 
        8 George McBride      65  398  6235 1901 1920 
        9 Gary DiSarcina      66  356  4032 1989 2000 
       10 Leo Durocher        66  512  5827 1925 1945 
       11 Alfredo Griffin     67  615  7330 1976 1993 
       12 Roger Metzger       67  370  4676 1970 1980 
       13 Wally Gerber        67  504  5816 1914 1929 
       14 Ozzie Guillen       68  631  7133 1985 2000 
       15 Mark Belanger       68  535  6602 1965 1982 
       16 Bones Ely           69  504  5563 1884 1902 
       17 Larry Bowa          71  837  9103 1970 1985 
       18 Frank Taveras       71  397  4399 1971 1982 
       19 Roy McMillan        72  692  7653 1951 1966 
       20 Mickey Doolan       72  506  6598 1905 1918 
       21 Dick Schofield      73  453  4928 1983 1996 
       22 Don Kessinger       73  769  8529 1964 1979
    Lowest OPS+, 1600+ games at SS
    Code:
      Cnt Player            OPS+  RC    PA  From  To
    +----+-----------------+----+----+-----+----+----+
        1 Ed Brinkman         65  495  6640 1961 1975 
        2 Everett Scott       65  505  6373 1914 1926 
        3 George McBride      65  398  6235 1901 1920 
        4 Alfredo Griffin     67  615  7330 1976 1993 
        5 Ozzie Guillen       68  631  7133 1985 2000 
        6 Mark Belanger       68  535  6602 1965 1982 
        7 Larry Bowa          71  837  9103 1970 1985 
        8 Roy McMillan        72  692  7653 1951 1966 
        9 Mickey Doolan       72  506  6598 1905 1918 
       10 Don Kessinger       73  769  8529 1964 1979 
       11 Tommy Corcoran      74  852  9368 1890 1907 
       12 Germany Smith       75  633  6995 1884 1898 
       13 Royce Clayton       77  829  8164 1991 2007 
       14 Monte Cross         80  574  6711 1892 1907 
       15 Bill Russell        82  757  8020 1969 1986 
       16 Luis Aparicio       82 1135 11230 1956 1973 
       17 Rabbit Maranville   82 1081 11256 1912 1935 
       18 Omar Vizquel        83 1248 11160 1989 2009 
       19 Greg Gagne          83  634  6207 1983 1997 
       20 Orlando Cabrera     85  799  6856 1997 2009
    Last edited by Freakshow; 06-29-2009 at 09:08 AM.
    Eradicate, wipe out and abolish redundancy.

    Free El Duque!(and Mark Mulder) -- discover how the HOF rules are cheating this renowned member of Torre's Yankees dynasty and ask the HOF to include him on the ballot for the next BBWAA election.

  21. #21
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    In theory the last chart makes Vizquel a HOF candidate by the Aparicio/Maranville standard.

  22. #22
    In a way, Kessinger is an interesting question. Not because he's HoF material -- I don't think even his parents would think that -- but because I'd be interested to know how many six-time all-stars are farther away from the HoF line than Kessinger is. I don't think it'd be that many; it's (to me) an interesting example of a usual marker of goodness (if not greatness) being very, very misleading.

  23. #23
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    Omar Vizquel has played more games at shortstop than anyone, ever. Intuitively, that seems like a HOF achievement.

    Also, he's a half dozen hits from tying Luis Aparicio for the most hits ever from a person manning the shortstop position. (Wagner, Ripken, Yount, et al logging a number of seasons at other positions). He shouldn't hold this record for long...Jeter's only around 50 hits behind him, and barring unforeseen calamity will pass Omar and Luis next season if not this one.

    He has more hits than Aparicio overall, making him the Venezuelan hit king.

    It can't be overstated that reaching these marks of distinction is more of an indicator of how valuable Vizquel has been with the glove than any utility he brings with the bat. But, historic value is historic value.

  24. #24
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    The thing that bothers me about Vizquel is that he seems to get written up as being = Ozzie Smith. He's not close either offensively or defensively and along with his DP partner Alomar got glorified (and overrated) for making some highlight worthy DPs that got on ESPN.

  25. #25
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    Quote Originally Posted by PVNICK View Post
    The thing that bothers me about Vizquel is that he seems to get written up as being = Ozzie Smith. He's not close either offensively or defensively and along with his DP partner Alomar got glorified (and overrated) for making some highlight worthy DPs that got on ESPN.
    That's what his supporters have used as their primary argument for his candidacy all these years. It's a poor argument and if it's his only one, speaks volumes against his election, IMHO.
    "The value of a stat is directly proportional to how good it makes Steve Garvey look." -- Nerdlinger

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