The Mets are in rebuilding mode, there's nothing wrong with that. They're waiting to get Santana and Bay's contracts off the books and that money is expected to be spent on new talent. They should be lining up to be competitive soon, but when they have the foundation in place they need to start spending even above the new money that came off the books. The Wilpons are making a lot of profit through SNY with a below-market TV rights contract that's sheltered from MLB revenue sharing. They need to spend that money, because even with the recent price cuts people still pay a lot of money to see the Mets play and they should be getting adequate value for their money. Sports owners in general have no respect for their fanbases, which is pretty tragic. The exception that comes to mind is George Steinbrenner (his kids have zero respect it's 100% about maximizing profits) and Mark Cuban. If only a guy like Cuban owned the Mets, they would be at the top of the division every year AND they would be profitable
Last edited by GordonGecko; 02-05-2013 at 07:58 AM.
This is a 2011 non-story that tells most what they already know about Fredo and the city willing to give them anything they want.
Mike Illitch via his wife Marian is about one inch lower than Fredo on the human garbage scale. He got his taxpayer funded baseball stadium, neglected Tiger Stadium while getting paid maintain it and milked every penny he could get out of it, then had bulldozers waiting to tear into the grandstand within minutes of a court decision to defeat a group trying to make it a museum because he did not want competition to his taxpayer funded ballpark in a place where vacant buildings stand for generations. Now he wants another development where he's paid via the taxpayers for an arena.
Almost seems Marian Illitch grabbed for this deal from NY in 2011:
Last edited by WEB; 02-05-2013 at 03:21 PM.
I am boycotting going to Met games but by no means am I a front runner.
Front running in my opinion is ignoring a team because they are losing. That reason alone is not nearly why I am boycotting this horrible Wilpon owned mess. I need to see a team TRY to win. TRY to put a professional team on the field. TRY to compete. Right now we are not getting any kind of effort at all. We are being slapped in face and told to come back for more.
RJ if you get slapped in the face by a "partner" (and dont kid yourself - the team/fan relationship should be a partnership) and go back and ask for more...then so be it. Its your choice. I opt to expect an effort on both sides...mine and theirs.
Like Straw - I have been a Met fan for 40+ years and have gone through some horrendous periods blindly rooting and hoping with very little in return. I find it disgusting to see ownership treat the fans in the manner they have since the stolen money stopped rolling in. Disgusting.
What I find more disgusting are fellow fans that dont get it. Fans that root for a team because it says METS across their shirt regardless of anything else. I find it disgusting that after 40+ years of rooting for a team through all kinds of crap...and believe me its been mostly crap...that you get called a front runner. It takes a huge amount of nerve for someone to call fans of a team for that many years a front runner.
You go ahead and love your Wilpon owned Mets while your getting your pocket picked while watching a AA team. Your call.
A quick definition of "frontrunner" on google basically says someone who only shows interest in a team when they win. By that definition, you or any of the frequent flyers on this site are not "frontrunners" because you are still showing interst even though they are losing. I do think you have a flare for the dramatic when you say this team is not trying? Really?, not at all? Tell that to players who will wear the uniform next year. I root for the players. I do not root for the owners, but I also do not root against them. I believe thats not in a team I like best interests and have no time for the negativity. You also state a fan/team relationship is 2 ways, which it is. You feel the team is not living up to their end of the bargain? Well what exactly is there end of the bargain? Are you looking for a guarantee that your team will win? Thats not going to happen. Do you expect every move will pay instant dividends? thats not realistic. Do you think you deserve more because you live in a certain part of the country and your team should try harder than the other 29 who also want to win? There's another name for that. Do you feel your boycotting this team, which I take as financially(not buying tickets) may actually be slowing down the process of rebuilding this team?
I have pre bought Met tickets via a partial or season plan for most of the last 30 years. I can honestly say the Mets are more fan friendly now then they have ever been. Please read other threads for examples of perks, dedicated sales reps who actually help you find a location that works for you and believe it or not a price point for tickets that I feel is fair which is supported by me being able to recoup my investment via the secondary market for games I cannot use.
Now be honest with yourself and ask this question? If the Mets somehow develop a good team under Wilpon Ownership, will you watch more, which increases ad revenue or maybe even purchase tickets, which goes directly into the evil hands that you and others have berated thousand of times in the last few years? Or maybe even ask yourself the question, Have I supported this team financially in the past while they put a winner on the field while fully knowing whose grimmy hands my money was going to? That answer may be more damning? Maybe we cannot call it frontrunning but can we at least agree to call it hypocritical?
And I do get that me and my family have enjoyed going to Citifield over the last few years despite the lack of championships. I also hope that maybe a good lifes lesson will be taught to my kids. Don't give up on something when its down and sticking with something during bad times makes the enjoyment of the good times even better. Now I think thats why we should be proud to be a Mets fan.
The day will come when this team has success again, and that's when they will return to see Fredo and Jeff-R-Us team in their Brooklyn Dodger stadium, many will suddenly defend the newly re-branded tough hard decisions they complain about today which will be spun into what needed to be done to finally produce a winner the so called " right way. "
History always has a sad way of being selectively rewritten when it finally produces results.
Last edited by WEB; 02-06-2013 at 12:30 PM.
Now answer a question yourself. Are they really trying? Is the organization really trying? If you think ownership is giving any kind of effort you are just justifying how and why you spend your money. Are the players trying? Or course they are. What does that mean? They have AA & AAA players trying. I can go see the Ducks play and see that 15 minutes from my house. By trying I mean that ownership is putting a Major League team on the field. They are not.
WEB -- your beautiful dude. You can spew your crap all you want, but I will never defend anything these Wilscums do. Will I go to a game if I see an organizational/fan partnership where they attempt to put a real team on the field. Yes I probably would. If thats damning then let me be damned......I guess. First and foremost I want a real team on the field.
This is all speculation at this point because they are far from having a real team, and history states that there is no way they have a good team over a period of time. Its like Haley's comet. They are good then they fade because building a winning team from top to bottom is something foreign to the Wilscums.
Bloomberg, Mario Cuomo chest bumping with Fredo outside court or some past press conference or development pr schtick or when Fredo tells Bloomberg to send the cops around Willets Point for some nice organizational fan partnership with the eminent domain notices is the only partnership they know.
In 2009 Met fans around here sounded like Fredo demanding the generational businesses must go for Fredo's organizational fan partnership.
Hey we robbed thousands of people, please take some free land as a reward to go with your taxpayer funded mallpark.
After all what's a mallpark without real mall to go with it.
But when things finally do turn on the field-GO TEAM GO, winning cures all.
They got the public, the neighborhood and the fans by the throat. There's your organizational fan partnership win or lose where it be 2006, 2008, 2009, 2013.
Hint, that's the same everywhere. Fredo's only worse in his traits of how he wrecked the brand permanently which has nothing to do with payroll or on field results and his off field issues which are enormous requiring his immediate removal with Jeff-R-Us.
For the thirteen teams spending more than the Mets and most of the teams spending less the words organizational fan partnership are the equivalent of hearing the words stick em up as you pay what they tell to to pay for parking, concessions, tickets or the fun stories by dstoffa about Fredo's security chasing down fans for seat jumping and the infamous stories of the convicted felon's security in the Bronx.
Last edited by WEB; 02-06-2013 at 03:49 PM.
Long time lurker, lifetime Mets fan. Having been a Mets fan since 1962, I find this whole discussion amusing and a little sad. The Mets have ALWAYS been run this way, to greater or lesser degrees. In '62, they left their best players on the bench most of the time, making a business decision that they were going to lose anyway, so they might as well play the "familiar" (read: "old") faces of former Giants and Dodgers to boost attendance. Meanwhile, they just kept stocking the farm system. A lot of highly regarded talent came and went through the 60s--most of them falling far short of successful in the pros--Steve Chilcott, Billy Cotton, Les Rohr, John Glass--until, eventually, some of the kids stuck--McGraw, Harrelson, Swoboda, Ryan, Gentry. They got lucky with Seaver. Soon, there was a core major league team and a farm system full of "the next..." They weren't of course, but the overstocked farm permitted trades that gave the Mets the '69 championship. Some, you'd have liked and some you'd have hated, I'm sure. When Whitey Herzog ran the farm system and Gil was manager, that was the one stretch in their existence the Mets were run smart. But the championship team they'd built--even when they were run smart--only won once. '73 was something of an encore, but that was a fluke; they put together a nice run when it counted, but they weren't a very good team, really, and their complete demise was already well underway. From 74 through 81, roughly, they were a complete joke, each year seemingly more pathetic than the last. You honestly think THIS outfield is worse than the likes of Dwyer, Mangual, Mike Vail and Leon Brown? Really? (and, might I add, Leon Brown was one of my favorite all time Mets, but even so...)
From 81 or 2 on, they, again, stocked the farm system and waited until the core was in place. Then they traded off "future stars" for some key pieces, signed a free agent or two and the next thing you know, ol' Jed's a millionaire. But, again, they only won once. I remember when supposed Mets fans demanded Davey's head on a platter because "all he ever does is finish second". This time, their downfall turned out to be trying to build a team around Gregg Jefferies. And, so, back to the wilderness we went.
When they rose again in 2000, it was after another long period of stocking the farm and putting the pieces together until they fit well enough to get us back to the Series. And then came Omar. Say what you will, Omar was trying his level best to put a championship team on the field. He spent a lot of money and I have no doubt he had total latitude to do whatever he wanted. Unfortunately, Omar's level best wasn't all that great and he totally let the farm system go to hell.
Here's the thing. As a Mets fan, my love and support for this team has only waivered once and you'd likely be surprised to know that it was the '86 team I hated. I could relate to the '69 team, the '73 team, the 2000 team, and all the years that didn't go so well. That '86 team was a bunch of jerks. I didn't like them. I couldn't root for them. Putting that aside for the moment...
I do not concern myself with the ownership. I fully respect Sandy Alderson, I believe he DOES have a plan (that, largely, consists of building the farm system back up and husbanding resources in the interim) and I fully believe he has full autonomy to persue his plan. Omar spent a lot of money and did more damage than good. Spending a lot of money doesn't make you smart. And it doesn't make you a winner, either, unless you've got deeper pockets than Boss Steinbrenner (and, even at that, the Yankees had their sucky years). Pitching and defense make you a winner. A farm system stocked to the gills makes you a winner. I can understand the team's signing Wright for ridiculous money (while otherwise pleading poverty) given the team's history at third base and needing one legitimate "face of the franchise". On the other hand, I hated the Dickey deal with a passion; I don't think you ever get value trading a reigning Cy Young winner. Dickey was cheap enogh to keep and much better than the Mets (and a lot of fans) will ever realize; what he could've given us tutoring young pitchers would have been enormous. If you get 5 or 6 young pitchers for him, then, maybe, you do the deal. But not for this package. That said, its done. Time to move on.
I don't question anyone's right to boycott the Mets, nor do I question that someone doing so legirimately believes that "starving the beast" is the best or only avenue to change the team's direction. I disagree, but I'm not going to say that belief makes one a fair weather fan. But, if your view is that (like the Yankees) the Mets should be competitive pretty much every year then you should probably look for another team. Historically, fans of the Red Sox and Cubs have suffered far more than Met fans and, gripe as they might, they love their teams just as much when they lose as when they win (which, in the Cubs case, ain't often).
I love my Mets because they are my Mets--whoever they are. Win, lose or draw, that doesn't change. And I would just as soon watch a bunch of kids, most of whom will never amount to much, finishing last than a bunch of kids and Justin Upton or a bunch of kids and (free agent here) finishing next to last. And say what you will about Citi Field, Shea had to go. It had become a toilet. Litterally. I say that with love, but its true.
Last thought. Madoff aside, it's hard for me to get all riled up about Wilpon & Co. If you honestly think they're the worst the Mets have ever had, you must be too young to remember M. Donald Grant. By comparison, Fred's a piker at destroying a franchise. Right now, the Mets are undefeated and tied for first. Me? I'm going to enjoy that while I can. You all do whatever it is you feel you have to do.
The Payson era coincided with the years between institution of the amateur draft and free agency. During that brief window being in a big market didn't confer an economic advantage easily translated into better players. Powerhouse teams came from places like Baltimore, Cincinnati, Pittsburgh and Oakland. Once free agency arrived big market teams could throw their weight around again. So there's just no excuse for the endless saga of failure that is the Wilpon era.
I loved the 1986 team. I like watching the Mets win. The notion that crummy teams, bad management and being a perpetual underdog is somehow part of the Mets' DNA is something I can't agree with. It reminds me of Dave Howard telling me being a Mets fan builds character. It's justifying a swindle.
M. Donald Grant was never really a baseball man and ultimately a dinosaur who the game had bypassed. He was swept away in due time. Fred, Saul and Jeff are parasites who keep getting fatter and fatter and refuse to leave the host. Many times a host will predecease its parasites. I'm afraid that's the kind of tenacity the Wilpons have. They've proven ten-fold more long lived and ten-fold more destructive than Grant.
"The Fightin' Met With Two Heads" - Mike Tyson/Ray Knight!
Believe it or not I also the love the Mets win lose or draw. What I can not and will not accept is lack of effort by the organization. Right now that is what we are and have been going through. There is no effort by ownership to put a winner on the field.
Like you I didnt concern myself with ownership....until 2009 when the stuff hit the fan, and his Madoff dealings had a huge and obvious impact on the team. Again...not acceptable to me. Then I realized what kind of creep Wilpon was. As I have said in another post - I can easily ignore Wilpon. I will ignore him when I feel there is an organizational effort to put a winner on the field. I will never give him credit for turning it around or suddenly see the light of the Wilpon Way. At best I will ignore that this creep is the owner.
Right now the OF is Baxter, Kirk, Duda. That may be the worst OF in the history of baseball. It makes me think Mazzilli, Henderson, and Youngblood were the heart of Murderers Row.
The one I'd like to take on here is the myth that all Omar Minaya ever did was throw money at free agents - and that his level best wasn't good enough. No, he didn't put a World Series team on the field, but he did come close and even his big money record is mixed, not hideous. Several key aspects of Omar's work get white-washed by the Alderson fans:
- Jeff Wilpon was every bit the meddler then as he is now, maybe even more so. I have this directly from several people who witnessed it. Omar and Sandy both toiled under that cloud, no question, but Alderson actually has it better because he was ordered in here by Bud Selig with a directive to clean up and pare down the Mets. So he has more autonomy than Minaya ever did.
- Minaya didn't just throw money at free agents. There were a couple of young, up and coming, farm-grown talents he moved quickly to retain. Their names were Wright and Reyes. Minaya wisely built around them.
- He moved quickly to sign Pedro and Beltran in his first year - both excellent signings.
- His early acquisitions included Billy Wagner, Carlos Delgado, LoDuca, and he did a great job (approximately 8,000 times better than Alderson) in bringing in key veteran spare parts on inexpensive deals or trades, guys like Endy, Valentin, Franco and Nady and bullpen arms. Oh and some dude named RA Dickey. No way in heck Omar Minaya fields an OF like the Mets currently have. The man had energy and drive.
- He didn't destroy the farm system. The Mets, under the Wilpons, have always stayed under the slot for draft picks, and they've let plenty of picks walk over money and years. And yet Omar Minaya drafted or signed Ike Davis, Jon Niese, Dillon Gee, Matt Harvey, Daniel Murphy, Ruben Tejada and others.
I would hardly call that letting "the farm system go to hell." I'd call it pretty successful working, given his Wilpon limitation.
Yeah Omar made some very bad calls - Jason Bay being the worst, Santana second worst (and don't get me started on Ollie Perez). Yes, he melted down under the glare in New York, and under the thumb of the Wilpons. But the notion that Sandy Alderson is somehow a much better baseball man than Omar Minaya is ludicrous.
Minaya did a lot more for the Mets than "spend a lot of money." His time here, while flawed, deserves to be remembered accurately and fairly.
Last edited by Strawman; 02-07-2013 at 07:06 AM.
Cleon Jones catches a deep fly ball in F. Scott Fitzgerald's Valley of the Ashes, and a second-grader smiles in front of the black and white television.
To compare Alderson and Minaya is a little bit skewed. Wouldnt you say?
Given the same exact resources I believe Alderson could run rings around Minaya. History will not prove that out because of wins and losses under their tenure, and after all isnt that how GM's get judged?
The one thing that is very bizarre in your post Strawman is to say that Alderson has more autonomy. Well that may be true but its an autonomy in a different direction isnt it? Under Omar the Wilscums were looking to increase payroll so of course he had less autonomy. More spending means less autonomy in any aspect of business. You need to run spending through the boss. Alderson is here to cut payroll. I am sure the Wilscums want to hear less about the cutting than they do about the spending.
You applaud Omar for building around Reyes/Wright while retaining them - while Alderson had to let one of them go due to financial constraints.
Believe me - I have become less and less a fan of Alderson just because I am disgusted with the whole hot mess, but I also understand that its very hard to judge them on equal ground because they are not playing on equal ground.
I have always felt that you hold this Met Era against Alderson. Insert any GM you want into this mess and its a disaster. What team is Omar the GM for right now? Its a little funny how this great GM isnt a GM anywhere isnt it? He is a good judge of young talent. I will give him that. His strength is in scouting etc.
There is so much that goes on that we have no clue about it would probably make our heads spin. So what seemingly is Alderson doing nothing to us is probably what he has been told what to do. If not he wouldnt have his job.
You're right, they can't be judged evenly because the circumstances are different. But you judge Alderson better somehow. I'd rather have Minaya.
Cleon Jones catches a deep fly ball in F. Scott Fitzgerald's Valley of the Ashes, and a second-grader smiles in front of the black and white television.
I don't want to get into a big back and forth. Let's just say my memories are..."different".
1) While there was generally more stability in a team's roster and a player's career prior to free agency (and how could there not be--the players were virtual slaves afterall), the long course of history tells a different story. The powerhouse teams were generally the same power house teams and, at core, they got that way by stocking the farm system--especially with young arms. Before the draft and after the draft, the Yankees, Orioles, A's, Cardinals, etc. all had farm systems filled to overflowing. Free Agency changed the equation somewhat but, as the Marlins have shown, you can compete and win in this era with good scouting and smart management...even if you end up holding a fire sale after you win. BTW, I'd much rather be a Mets fan than a Marlins fan, either when they were winning or losing and especially now. That current bunch, there, will be the end of them; they'll be selling or moving that team very soon. Now there's a group of owners that truly doesn't care about anything other than milking what they can. If you were fooled by their signings last year, then you're not as astute as you'd like to think you are.
2) M. Donald Grant was far, far more vile and destructive than Wilpon and Doubleday could ever hope to be. Maybe time and distance have made him seem less so to some. But my memories of him are still fresh and putrid. It wasn't just the Seaver trade (and badmouthing Tom Terrific on the way out the door), though that should be enough to consign him to the deepest levels of hell; it was everything he did and said. I've seen talk about the good will the current ownership has lost. You couldn't have imagined a team with more good will than the Mets had when Grant started his reign of terror and you couldn't imagine a team with less by the time he was through. From '62 forward, Mets fans were proud of their squad and their love for them, regardless of the won-loss record. By the time Grant was done, Mets fans--the few who were left--would be ashamed to say so out loud. Grant took a team with the kind of lifetime fan base that would be passed from generation to generation (as with Red Sox fans) and squandered it all with his quest for short term profit and hugely stupid moves. I always had the feeling Grant hated baseball. He surely hated the Mets. By the time he was "swept away", there was nothing left and the Mets had no fan base at all. Wilpon couldn't approach that level of destruction in 20 lifetimes. And comparisons are largely invalid anyway since the fan base the Mets have now is much different than the one Grant tossed away. The current fan base is much more results oriented whereas the fan base Grant destroyed had it in their blood. You can destroy today's fan base by sucking on the field for an extended period; the only way to destroy the fan base Grant destroyed was to rip their hearts from their chests and crush them to dust in front of them. He did that.
3) Yes, the '86 squad were winners. They were brash and electric. They were a-holes. They were bullies. I knew then Lenny Dykstra would land in jail. I'm just surprised more of that team hasn't. I'm not saying the Mets have to be perpetual losers. But if its winning at any cost you want and the character of the team doesn't matter to you...you may not be a Mets fan. There are plenty of teams out there for that sort of thing. I'd prefer my Mets weren't one of them. I don't like bullies, whether they're wearing my team colors or not, whether they win or not. The world has far too many bullies and a-holes already.
4) I give Minaya credit for effort, but, c'mon, let's be honest. Unless you want to credit him for the moves the club made when he was apprentice to that other moron, Steve Phillips, you can't credit him for Reyes and Wright. And, no, he gets no extra points for not trading them away. If anything, his propensity for trading young arms away instead would more than counterbalance that. Omar overpaid for everyone and everything. And even my hispanic friends joked about his Latin fetish (and bemoaned it). Ironically, I don't fault him for Ollie Perez, but credit him for that one instead. Ollie Perez was (at the time) a young lefthander with a fastball (at the time) like few have ever seen. Even had I known, at the time, what a jackass Ollie was, I'd have still made that move. Hell, I still would today. What Ollie needs, more than anything, is a good pitching coach. That and a bit of an attitude adjustment. But you should always, in baseball, take a chance on a left arm like that. And, yes, Omar did destroy the farm system. You want to spread the blame for that around a bit, fine, but then you can't deny him blame for the failings and yet still credit him for the successes. Step back, take a wide angle shot, and you'll see a farm that had loads of talent when he started and precious little when he finished. Seriously, outside of Matt Harvey (who we really don't know about yet), the rest of that list--Davis, Niese, Gee, Murphy, Tejada--probably wouldn't even be in competition for regular work on any other franchise. Niese has worked his way forward, but he wasn't considered any great talent at the time. Even now, he's a #4 on a good squad. I say that as a big Niese fan and booster. I want Niese on my team. I want him on my fantasy team. But he's not an ace. Not even close. And, had Omar stuck around, its likely Niese and Harvey would be pitching for someone else, now. Gee certainly would be. Omar loved to trade young arms for middling bats.
Its too soon to grade Alderson. Really, it is. He's been here two years, essentially. Some of his moves I like, some I hate. But he does have something of a track record. And if you're going to jetison a GM for "failing" after two years, you're never going to have a winner. And, as for the outfield, we don't really know who they are yet, any more than anyone knew in 66 or 67 that Jones and Swoboda would be champions. Toss a Tommy Davis (big name star) in there, they don't look so good; with an Agee (small name "star"), they look much better. Davis hit over .300 with the Mets. What did they win? Cleon hit under .250 that year with 5 home runs. Was he garbage to be tossed aside? Likely Baxter and Duda are just fillers and back ups, but they are giving you 100% effort. We haven't seen enough of Captain Kirk to know anything about him, yet. I feel better with those three than with two of them and the perennial underperforming Upton. We weren't winning in 2013 either way. And, no, there's no way even this outfield is as bad as the outfield of 76 and beyond. Henderson, Mazzilli and Youngblood maybe. But Dwyer, Mangual, Leon Brown, Mike Vail, Don Hahn, etc., etc. Uh, no. Just no. Anyway, I'm far less concerned with the outfield than with the bullpen. You can win a lot of 1-0 games if you've got good pitching, top to bottom. And, if you don't, you're going to lose a lot of 8-6 games no matter how accomplished your offense.
Like I said, the 2013 Mets were not going to compete no matter what. What's the point of bringing in a few high priced names or trading young kids for them when you're not even close? So you can "look" like you're trying? I'll pass. You don't build a winner that way. You build a winner with pitching and defense and a strong farm system. And patience. Win or lose, Minaya or Alderson, Grant or Wilpon, they're still my Mets. They will always be my Mets. And I will always root for them. Because that's what fans do.
I thought having Wright, Ike, Upton would have been a nice middle of the order for a very subpar team.
The one move I hope they dont make and makes ZERO sense is signing Bourne. 31 years old, by the time the Mets are good he will be well out of his prime, especially for a speed player.
How you can possibly feel better with those three instead of adding Upton is beyond me. He may actually out perform all three combined.