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Thread: The Mets Ownership / Management Thread

  1. #3201
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    Quote Originally Posted by mandrake View Post
    We are on the very same page. And while I pointed out Big Red lost at Saratoga (and he lost 5 of 21 races) I consider him the greatest horse of my lifetime and probably the greatest of all time. His Belmont was not only the greatest horse racing performance ever, but I consider it the single greatest achievement in all of sports.

    Now ...the Mets. In the beginning of the year I predicted the Mets would be 4 games behind the Nats at the end of the year. I didn't think the Nats were as good as others thought...in fact I now think if the Mets added two real proven MLB bats, they win the division. I would not be shocked if only the East winner makes the post season and the other 4 teams come from the Central and West. The NL east isn't very good, so this is the season to make the move.

    It is time for 2015's Donn Clendenon moment !!! The Mets were 30-26 after their game in Los Angeles on June 15,1969. After 'stealing" Donn from the Expos that day, the Mets went 70 and 36 the rest of the way. Donn also hit 3 hrs in the World Series.

    This year's Mets are 31 and 27. It is time to get that missing power hitter.
    Agreed on Secratariat 100% - the horse was other worldly.

    I think the Nats are a little better than you do, but I do agree that the if the Mets had two big bats they could play with anyone. Its just that two big bats dont grow on trees and that IF is a huge one. The Nats are not playing well right now so its easy to think that the last two weeks is their reality. I dont believe it is. This may be as bad as the Nats get. Hopefully I am wrong and the Mets can hang.

    One thing is for sure - We will be having this conversation about the Mets through the whole summer if they dont improve with the bats. They will look great for a spell then look like a bad team for a time. We have already seen this happen this season a couple of times.

    This is no revelation but we all know the best teams are balanced. The pitching on this team is good enough to carry them to a point, but at some point the offense needs to pick up the pitching also. That is not going to happen enough with this team.

    You cant count on winning every game 3-2 eventually the dam breaks. You have to have the team that can win the 1-0 game and the 11-10 game on occasion.

    There have been times this that the Mets have lost 2-1 and the pitching was blamed (the bullpen mores specifically). My opinion is yes the pen blew a lead, but if you only score one run then there is nothing to complain about.

  2. #3202
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    Quote Originally Posted by Paulypal View Post
    Agreed on Secratariat 100% - the horse was other worldly.

    I think the Nats are a little better than you do, but I do agree that the if the Mets had two big bats they could play with anyone. Its just that two big bats dont grow on trees and that IF is a huge one. The Nats are not playing well right now so its easy to think that the last two weeks is their reality. I dont believe it is. This may be as bad as the Nats get. Hopefully I am wrong and the Mets can hang.

    One thing is for sure - We will be having this conversation about the Mets through the whole summer if they dont improve with the bats. They will look great for a spell then look like a bad team for a time. We have already seen this happen this season a couple of times.

    This is no revelation but we all know the best teams are balanced. The pitching on this team is good enough to carry them to a point, but at some point the offense needs to pick up the pitching also. That is not going to happen enough with this team.

    You cant count on winning every game 3-2 eventually the dam breaks. You have to have the team that can win the 1-0 game and the 11-10 game on occasion.

    There have been times this that the Mets have lost 2-1 and the pitching was blamed (the bullpen mores specifically). My opinion is yes the pen blew a lead, but if you only score one run then there is nothing to complain about.
    Sort of like some fans who watched the NY Rangers get shut out back to back at the Garden in the conference finals by a Tampa goalie not really among the elite, and the fan base blames Lundquist.

    The Mets cant have starters afraid to give up a run. Ask Seaver, Kooz, and Matlack about that.

  3. #3203
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    Quote Originally Posted by mandrake View Post
    Sort of like some fans who watched the NY Rangers get shut out back to back at the Garden in the conference finals by a Tampa goalie not really among the elite, and the fan base blames Lundquist.

    The Mets cant have starters afraid to give up a run. Ask Seaver, Kooz, and Matlack about that.
    Exactly.

    Its the old saying - the more you do the more your expected to do. Lundquist is the last reason why the Rangers are home right now, but people expect so much of exceptional players that they can never really fulfill what people expect.

    Same with the Mets. The pitching is suppose to throw shutouts or give up a run or two or they have failed. God forbid the bullpen gives up a run. Although there are some fans and forum members that hate the offensive side of the game - like it or not it is necessary. Sometimes you have to out hit, out slug your opponent so a team needs a full tool belt to win.

    These fans/forum members that feel this way always point to the Giants, the Royals, and a couple of other teams throughout the history of baseball. They tell you that "see the Giants won 3 of 5, and the Royals made it to the WS on pitching, speed and defense". Yes these teams did what they did, but they did it through a historic down turn in offense.

    The history of baseball suggests you need to hit as well as hit with power to win. Pitching is a constant necessity no doubt, but so it offense.

  4. #3204
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    Nelson Doubleday has died at age 81:
    http://www.nytimes.com/2015/06/18/bu...ies-at-81.html
    The Mets have the best, smartest fans in baseball.

  5. #3205
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    Reading several different Mets blogs, it seems that by a huge margin, Mets fans seemed to like Doubleday a helluva lot more than the Wilponzi.

    Maybe someday Nelson will get an honor only bestowed on Mrs Joan Whitney Payson. Having this door named after the only person willing to put up the $$$ for a Continental League franchise in NYC, gets me all choked up.
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  6. #3206
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    Quote Originally Posted by mandrake View Post
    Reading several different Mets blogs, it seems that by a huge margin, Mets fans seemed to like Doubleday a helluva lot more than the Wilponzi.

    Maybe someday Nelson will get an honor only bestowed on Mrs Joan Whitney Payson. Having this door named after the only person willing to put up the $$$ for a Continental League franchise in NYC, gets me all choked up.
    The difference is too clear cut to miss. Doubleday was a great corporate manager: he was trained from his youth to be one. He hired the right people and got out of the way. The Mets went from the worst organization in baseball to the best in six years. Fred hijacked the team in November 1986 and reduced it to rubble in six years. Off the diamond the organization became dysfunctional, fan-hostile and obsessed with grabbing every penny in sight, from fans, their neighbors, the City, the State, the Federal Government, from less tenured investors in their Ponzi schemes.

    It seems like bad people often have great longevity. Still, I wonder what attempts the media will make to browbeat Mets fans into suppressing their inevitable joy when Fred's immortal soul gets sucked down the Great Tubes of Judgement into its own special hereafter.


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  7. #3207
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mongoose View Post
    The difference is too clear cut to miss. Doubleday was a great corporate manager: he was trained from his youth to be one. He hired the right people and got out of the way. The Mets went from the worst organization in baseball to the best in six years. Fred hijacked the team in November 1986 and reduced it to rubble in six years. Off the diamond the organization became dysfunctional, fan-hostile and obsessed with grabbing every penny in sight, from fans, their neighbors, the City, the State, the Federal Government, from less tenured investors in their Ponzi schemes.

    It seems like bad people often have great longevity. Still, I wonder what attempts the media will make to browbeat Mets fans into suppressing their inevitable joy when Fred's immortal soul gets sucked down the Great Tubes of Judgement into its own special hereafter.
    I wonder what separates the inheritors like Doubleday of Joan Payson, who people think fondly of, from the Jeffys, Dolans or many others who are not. But that is probably best left to a sociology or psych board rater than a baseball one. Carry on.

  8. #3208
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    Quote Originally Posted by PVNICK View Post
    I wonder what separates the inheritors like Doubleday of Joan Payson, who people think fondly of, from the Jeffys, Dolans or many others who are not. But that is probably best left to a sociology or psych board rater than a baseball one. Carry on.
    On a second hand basis I've heard nothing but good things about Mrs. Payson personally. I never discussed Doubleday with anyone that knew him. Both Payson and Doubleday bought in with their own money because they wanted to have fun. Embedded in the notion of fun was a measure of public service. Squashing everyone in sight to grab every last cent wasn't part of either equation.

    Fred and Charles bought into their teams as a vehicle for plunder or, in Dolan's case, an integral asset to his cable empire. The idiot sons were installed. There were no notions of public service in either situation. Payson and Doubleday defined themselves in other ways and did other things besides owning a ballclub. The idiot sons define themselves by being the kings of their sports fiefdoms.

    I think that's mostly why people are not fond of Jeff or James.

    Of course losing plays a big role but the Mets were mostly a bad team under Payson and people liked her. It gets tricky. George Steinbrenner was probably as unpleasant in many ways as either idiot son. The difference is George was passionate about and extravagant in his pursuit of winning. He really cared and was a die-hard fan himself. Since he mostly won his eccentricities have been reframed into positives.

    It's more or less impossible to reframe the Wilpons' "eccentricities" into positives. Greed, ruthlessness and miserliness are hard to gild. More significantly they've proven over and over winning takes a back seat to grabbing every last cent. Even if the Mets eventually win the Wilpons will never be popular.


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  9. #3209
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    If Fred and Saul were expecting to leverage the Mets to help rent mall space they should have stopped ransacking the team last year. Instead they still refuse to take on salary and are determined to squeeze every last penny out of operating expenses.

    I don't see how they'll be able to acquire enough offense to help pimp the mall without eating Granderson, Cuddyer and Wright's salaries and rebuilding most of the lineup from scratch. If they don't let Lagares get surgery now I expect him to be a black hole going forward. Fixing this mess will probably cost more than if they'd made an honest effort from the get-go.

    It'll be interesting to see how they play it going forward. The only way I see the mall succeeding is by relying heavily on "Citi" Field traffic. Oh well, even if it's a commercial failure Fred sucked dozens of acres of free land and custom built infrastructure from the public tit, while siphoning hundreds of millions from the Mets and giving back nothing.

    Must be great being a greedy, clever sociopath.


    "The Fightin' Met With Two Heads" - Mike Tyson/Ray Knight!

  10. #3210
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    Mets sign two young international shortstops. Let the criticism begin;

    "The Mets have signed 16-year-old SS Gregory Guerrero out of the Dominican Republic, according to his academy (July 2). He is the nephew of former MLB OF Vladimir Guerrero.

    The team also agreed to a $1.2 million deal with 16-year-old, Venezuelan SS Andres Gimenez, according to MLB.com’s Jesse Sanchez (July 2, 2015).

    The $3 million in signings will put the Mets over their league-allocated $2.5 million bonus, meaning they’ll have to pay a tax on the $500,000 difference.

    “Guerrero has looseness to his swing and above average bat speed and power projection,” former MLB scout and FanGraphs contributor Kiley McDaniel said in April, noting that Guerrero could eventually end up at third base.

    According to ESPN.com, Guerrero is the 10th-best international free agent available during this year’s signing period.

    Your browser does not support iframes.

    “He has good feel right now for both hitting and fielding,” ESPN’s Eric Longenhagen writes. “He lacks the explosive athleticism and arm strength to play shortstop and won’t have the physicality of a middle-of-a-lineup hitter because his frame is on the small side, but Guerrero is otherwise solid across the board.”

    “Guerrero could be an average regular or slightly above that, and he’ll move through a team’s system quicker than the other players in this class even though he’s among its youngest.”

    Meanwhile, “Gimenez has all the indicators at a young age that he’ll be the next savvy and toolsy Venezuelan shortstop to become a top prospect,” McDaniel recently said.

    MLB.com ranked Gimenez the 15th-best player available, however Baseball America’s Ben Badler ranked him second overall.

    “He’s 5-foot-11, 165 pounds with a sweet swing that works in games, above-average speed and the potential for average to above-average defense at shortstop,” according to Badler."

  11. #3211
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    Quote Originally Posted by rjsallstars View Post
    Mets sign two young international shortstops. Let the criticism begin;

    "The Mets have signed 16-year-old SS Gregory Guerrero out of the Dominican Republic, according to his academy (July 2). He is the nephew of former MLB OF Vladimir Guerrero.

    The team also agreed to a $1.2 million deal with 16-year-old, Venezuelan SS Andres Gimenez, according to MLB.com’s Jesse Sanchez (July 2, 2015).

    The $3 million in signings will put the Mets over their league-allocated $2.5 million bonus, meaning they’ll have to pay a tax on the $500,000 difference.

    “Guerrero has looseness to his swing and above average bat speed and power projection,” former MLB scout and FanGraphs contributor Kiley McDaniel said in April, noting that Guerrero could eventually end up at third base.

    According to ESPN.com, Guerrero is the 10th-best international free agent available during this year’s signing period.

    Your browser does not support iframes.

    “He has good feel right now for both hitting and fielding,” ESPN’s Eric Longenhagen writes. “He lacks the explosive athleticism and arm strength to play shortstop and won’t have the physicality of a middle-of-a-lineup hitter because his frame is on the small side, but Guerrero is otherwise solid across the board.”

    “Guerrero could be an average regular or slightly above that, and he’ll move through a team’s system quicker than the other players in this class even though he’s among its youngest.”

    Meanwhile, “Gimenez has all the indicators at a young age that he’ll be the next savvy and toolsy Venezuelan shortstop to become a top prospect,” McDaniel recently said.

    MLB.com ranked Gimenez the 15th-best player available, however Baseball America’s Ben Badler ranked him second overall.

    “He’s 5-foot-11, 165 pounds with a sweet swing that works in games, above-average speed and the potential for average to above-average defense at shortstop,” according to Badler."
    Nothing to criticize here. Drafting is a crapshoot based on a crystal ball projection.

  12. #3212
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    Mall development hits snag

    http://www.nydailynews.com/new-york/...icle-1.2280088

    Pictures look a lot nicer then what's there now but who wants things to do close to a ballpark before and after the game? That's never worked before in any city. Lets see if it makes a mark in Mets plans going forward. At least we have a "logical" reason why team is not murderers row.

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    http://www.nydailynews.com/new-york/queens/exclusive-court-halts-willets-west-mall-pr

    A court Thursday put the brakes on city plans to build the massive “Willets West” shopping mall project in a Queens park next to Citi Field.

    The appellate division judges ruled the mall — a major part of former Mayor Michael Bloomberg’s plan to redevelop Willets Point — is illegal because the land where it would rise is part of Flushing Meadows-Corona Park.

    “This is a huge victory. They are going to have to rethink the whole project,” said state Sen. Tony Avella (D-Queens), who brought the lawsuit along with a group of advocates. “This is ... a reaffirmation that park land is sacred and you can’t just give it away.”

    The judges ruled that the land, though paved over, is legally park land and can’t be turned over to developers without permission from the state legislature.

    They rejected the city’s argument that a 1961 law that authorized the old Shea Stadium also allowed construction of a mall, and overturned a lower court decision that had thrown out the suit.

    “No reasonable reading ... allows for the conclusion that the legislature in 1961 contemplated, much less gave permission for, a shopping mall unrelated to the anticipated stadium to be constructed in the park,” the panel wrote.

    The 31-acre project, with a mall and movie theater, was to be built by the owners of the Mets and developer Related Companies.

    “We are disappointed in the Court’s decision and are reviewing our options,” said Law Department spokeswoman Kate O'Brien Ahlers.




    Let's hope this idea of a mall next to Citi Field never happens, and Fred and Jeff can concentrate on building a winning baseball team.

  14. #3214
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    Quote Originally Posted by mandrake View Post
    A court Thursday put the brakes on city plans to build the massive “Willets West” shopping mall project in a Queens park next to Citi Field.

    The appellate division judges ruled the mall — a major part of former Mayor Michael Bloomberg’s plan to redevelop Willets Point — is illegal because the land where it would rise is part of Flushing Meadows-Corona Park.

    “This is a huge victory. They are going to have to rethink the whole project,” said state Sen. Tony Avella (D-Queens), who brought the lawsuit along with a group of advocates. “This is ... a reaffirmation that park land is sacred and you can’t just give it away.”

    The judges ruled that the land, though paved over, is legally park land and can’t be turned over to developers without permission from the state legislature.

    They rejected the city’s argument that a 1961 law that authorized the old Shea Stadium also allowed construction of a mall, and overturned a lower court decision that had thrown out the suit.

    “No reasonable reading ... allows for the conclusion that the legislature in 1961 contemplated, much less gave permission for, a shopping mall unrelated to the anticipated stadium to be constructed in the park,” the panel wrote.

    The 31-acre project, with a mall and movie theater, was to be built by the owners of the Mets and developer Related Companies.

    “We are disappointed in the Court’s decision and are reviewing our options,” said Law Department spokeswoman Kate O'Brien Ahlers.




    Let's hope this idea of a mall next to Citi Field never happens, and Fred and Jeff can concentrate on building a winning baseball team.
    They will just find some other project that they can swindle millions from. The Mets have not been their priority since they stole the team. I don't think its going to start now.

  15. #3215
    Mongoose- how far does this push the franchise back from your 2015-2016 prediction for spending?

  16. #3216
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    Quote Originally Posted by Paulypal View Post
    They will just find some other project that they can swindle millions from. The Mets have not been their priority since they stole the team. I don't think its going to start now.
    Agree with most. Yes they will find another project that they can "bend" the rules and swindle millions. If they never had a history of spending money foolishly I would totally agree with you. I think the money is not flowing as freely now as the guaranteed 15% days with no risk. I think they still choose, which is their right since they own the team, to live the same personal lifestyle and not risk their wealth from other sources to fund the team to the level that would decrease their risk of failure. (Translation, overpay for players).

    This is why I feel that for this franchise to succeed under these obvious circumstances they need to draft wisely, develop talent and make wise decisions as to who to keep and who to trade for other pieces they need. They must also pray that players they may need are available when they need them. Free agents can supplement a lineup one or two players away but the days of buying a playoff contender are over for this team under these circumstances. And they are pretty much over for all baseball teams when you look at the lack of players with a high chance of good performance available the last few years on the free agent market.

    We all are all in on telling people how to spend their money. However we have no right to make them and our only true right is to not support their product. Sucks, but 100% true.
    Last edited by rjsallstars; 07-03-2015 at 07:06 AM.

  17. #3217
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    Quote Originally Posted by LI METS FAN View Post
    Mongoose- how far does this push the franchise back from your 2015-2016 prediction for spending?
    I think the press was under orders to lay off the Wilpons since they had to remain intact and give approval if Willets West was going to happen. If the project's illegal they're no longer relevant. I notice the press has begun to savage them like never before the past couple days, starting with the Post.

    I think there's a real chance they cash out soon. Equity is very high and they'd walk away with $2b between the Mets and SNY.

    Short term, though, I think they'll see far less motivation to spend.

    I wonder if a higher court will be appealed to?


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  18. #3218
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    The last sentence answers your question about the appeal. I would like to see the decision b/c newspaper writers interpretation of lawsuits are often comically off-base.


    Court blocks plans for mall near Citi Field, says land is part of Flushing Meadows Corona Park

    THE ASSOCIATED PRESS
    First Posted: July 03, 2015 - 10:22 am
    Last Updated: July 03, 2015 - 10:24 am

    NEW YORK — A New York state appeals court has blocked a plan for a shopping mall near the Mets' home at Citi Field.

    The four-judge Appellate Division ruled Thursday that the Willets West mall project was illegal because the land, although paved over, is part of Flushing Meadows-Corona Park.

    It said the land cannot be turned over to developers without approval from the state Legislature.

    The judges rejected the city's argument that a 1961 law that authorized construction of the old Shea Stadium also allowed for a mall.

    The mall and movie theater project was to be built by a joint venture between the owners of the Mets and developer Related Companies.

    A spokesman for the joint venture said the developers strongly disagree with the ruling and will appeal the decision.

  19. #3219
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    Quote Originally Posted by PVNICK View Post
    The last sentence answers your question about the appeal. I would like to see the decision b/c newspaper writers interpretation of lawsuits are often comically off-base.


    Court blocks plans for mall near Citi Field, says land is part of Flushing Meadows Corona Park

    THE ASSOCIATED PRESS
    First Posted: July 03, 2015 - 10:22 am
    Last Updated: July 03, 2015 - 10:24 am

    NEW YORK — A New York state appeals court has blocked a plan for a shopping mall near the Mets' home at Citi Field.

    The four-judge Appellate Division ruled Thursday that the Willets West mall project was illegal because the land, although paved over, is part of Flushing Meadows-Corona Park.

    It said the land cannot be turned over to developers without approval from the state Legislature.

    The judges rejected the city's argument that a 1961 law that authorized construction of the old Shea Stadium also allowed for a mall.

    The mall and movie theater project was to be built by a joint venture between the owners of the Mets and developer Related Companies.

    A spokesman for the joint venture said the developers strongly disagree with the ruling and will appeal the decision.
    Some of the articles I posted in the Iron Triangle thread had deeper analysis of the illegality of building a mall on parkland and how there was no way Shea Stadium's exemption could be extended to a mall.

    This process might grind on for a long time. I wouldn't expect the Wilpons to spend a lot while it does.

    Good news, bad news I guess. Good news: the Wilpons would likely sell if the mall is blocked. Bad news: it might take a while.

    I now see the possibility of this window of great pitching passing with inadequate acquisitions to make it matter.


    "The Fightin' Met With Two Heads" - Mike Tyson/Ray Knight!

  20. #3220
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mongoose View Post
    I now see the possibility of this window of great pitching passing with inadequate acquisitions to make it matter.
    I also see this is a very distinct possibility.

  21. #3221
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    Quote Originally Posted by rjsallstars View Post
    Agree with most. Yes they will find another project that they can "bend" the rules and swindle millions. If they never had a history of spending money foolishly I would totally agree with you. I think the money is not flowing as freely now as the guaranteed 15% days with no risk. I think they still choose, which is their right since they own the team, to live the same personal lifestyle and not risk their wealth from other sources to fund the team to the level that would decrease their risk of failure. (Translation, overpay for players).

    This is why I feel that for this franchise to succeed under these obvious circumstances they need to draft wisely, develop talent and make wise decisions as to who to keep and who to trade for other pieces they need. They must also pray that players they may need are available when they need them. Free agents can supplement a lineup one or two players away but the days of buying a playoff contender are over for this team under these circumstances. And they are pretty much over for all baseball teams when you look at the lack of players with a high chance of good performance available the last few years on the free agent market.

    We all are all in on telling people how to spend their money. However we have no right to make them and our only true right is to not support their product. Sucks, but 100% true.
    This should now start involving the new commish. Everyone knows that the owners of the Mets and the owners of the White Sox were lifelong buddies of Bud. "Best Buds". The new commish needs to explain to all how the Dodgers were saved from nasty ownership (since when does a messy divorce justify forcing an ownership change) yet the Mets are forced to wither on the vine.

    Schott was bad, Finley was Bad, DeRoulet was bad, McCourt was bad......yet Wilpon is good????

    Remember Spano and the Islanders? Bad for hockey...yet Fred is teflon. Either the commish intervenes, or we all have to just wait for Fred to kick the bucket.....because there is no way Jeffie is not running the franchise into oblivion! Jeff Wilpon...the Yankees brightest hope for the future of ruling NYC alone at the top.

    Several years down the road, all of these good pitchers are going to be making...not $700K or less....but many millions. Where is that money coming from ? Not from Uncle Bernie !

  22. #3222
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    Quote Originally Posted by mandrake View Post
    This should now start involving the new commish. Everyone knows that the owners of the Mets and the owners of the White Sox were lifelong buddies of Bud. "Best Buds". The new commish needs to explain to all how the Dodgers were saved from nasty ownership (since when does a messy divorce justify forcing an ownership change) yet the Mets are forced to wither on the vine.

    Schott was bad, Finley was Bad, DeRoulet was bad, McCourt was bad......yet Wilpon is good????

    Remember Spano and the Islanders? Bad for hockey...yet Fred is teflon. Either the commish intervenes, or we all have to just wait for Fred to kick the bucket.....because there is no way Jeffie is not running the franchise into oblivion! Jeff Wilpon...the Yankees brightest hope for the future of ruling NYC alone at the top.

    Several years down the road, all of these good pitchers are going to be making...not $700K or less....but many millions. Where is that money coming from ? Not from Uncle Bernie !
    I believe a good measure of Fred's Teflon resulted from heavy hitters that stood to benefit from his boondoggle including the whole local political structure. If Willets Point fails to materialize Fred's Teflon might dissolve.

    Fact is he can afford to field a market appropriate team. Mets/SNY revenue probably nets the Wilpon family a 9 figure EBITDA annually. Revenue is sufficient. He simply chooses not to. He was also a net Madoff winner. Fred chose to borrow against the team and pay himself 9 figure dividends so if debt payments are his excuse it's certainly not a valid one.

    The Wilpon family is a bad smell that's been befouling Mets baseball for nearly 30 years. The mall being scuttled is great. The stench's best remaining move would be to cash out. Only problem is Coupon Field will still be there. Unless the new owner is also dedicated to squeezing Mets fans it'll present revenue problems due to being undersized. Then again Turner Field only lasted 20 years so relief isn't impossible.


    "The Fightin' Met With Two Heads" - Mike Tyson/Ray Knight!

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