Originally posted by WEB
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The Mets Ownership / Management Thread
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This is a sticky topic.
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There are some here who labor under the delusion that there is a "plan" for the Mets, that the front office is "sticking to the plan," and that this plan will pay off big time if only the Mets don't "mortgage the future" or "overpay for failure."
Like those are sane choices.
There is no plan. The front office works for the Wilpons by choice, not by necessity (let's not forget that Selig tapped Alderson to do this). And I full believe that at least to some extent, Alderson does have decent autonomy in running the Mets, certainly more than his predecessors. He's just not doing a very good job and continually changes his story (and has from the start).
To recap:
1. There is no plan
2. The Wilpons are horrible owners
3. The front office, rather than overcoming their ownership, is doing a poor job.
That's your Mets ownership/management story right there. Pauly happens to be right.Cleon Jones catches a deep fly ball in F. Scott Fitzgerald's Valley of the Ashes, and a second-grader smiles in front of the black and white television.
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Main Entry:
armchair quarterback
Part of Speech:
n
Definition:
a person who offers advice or an opinion on something in which they have no expertise or involvement
Example:
Super Bowl parties are full of armchair quarterbacks.
Please do not take this personally, but I have heard numerous posters do nothing but critisize and complain over the last several years on this site without ever expressing what they would do differently. Lets go back to 2009 and list a few things that have been proven as fact(well maybe)
1. An underachieving MLB team
2. Numerous high money contracts to those underachieving players
3. A farm system with decent talent but no difference makers
4. A Ownership (for whatever reason) that can no longer rely on unlimited financial resources.
5. A Ownership that may not even be able to pay its bills and go bankrupt depending on the ruling of a court.
6. A new Stadium built with 15000 fewer seats than the one it replaces with the thought of corporate season ticket holders buying up most of the tickets.
7. In that same year, the main corporate base in that city needs to be bailed out by the government to avoid a Nationwide, if not worldwide depression.
Okay, now please tell us how any sain knowledgeable baseball fan should expect a team to be able to compete for a Championship during this time frame and what anyone, or you specifically would have done to currently have this franchise ready to win a championship this year?
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Originally posted by rjsallstars View PostPlease do not take this personally, but I have heard numerous posters do nothing but critisize and complain over the last several years on this site without ever expressing what they would do differently.
Fredo's baseline payroll is not the issue for me based upon the league spending avg or the success rate of teams with similar payrolls or lower who did make the playoffs. The damage Fredo has done to the brand itself in how he's conducted himself as an owner unchecked since Doubleday's departure is the problem.
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Originally posted by rjsallstars View Post
Main Entry:
armchair quarterback
Part of Speech:
n
Definition:
a person who offers advice or an opinion on something in which they have no expertise or involvement
Example:
Super Bowl parties are full of armchair quarterbacks.
Please do not take this personally, but I have heard numerous posters do nothing but critisize and complain over the last several years on this site without ever expressing what they would do differently. Lets go back to 2009 and list a few things that have been proven as fact(well maybe)
1. An underachieving MLB team
2. Numerous high money contracts to those underachieving players
3. A farm system with decent talent but no difference makers
4. A Ownership (for whatever reason) that can no longer rely on unlimited financial resources.
5. A Ownership that may not even be able to pay its bills and go bankrupt depending on the ruling of a court.
6. A new Stadium built with 15000 fewer seats than the one it replaces with the thought of corporate season ticket holders buying up most of the tickets.
7. In that same year, the main corporate base in that city needs to be bailed out by the government to avoid a Nationwide, if not worldwide depression.
Okay, now please tell us how any sain knowledgeable baseball fan should expect a team to be able to compete for a Championship during this time frame and what anyone, or you specifically would have done to currently have this franchise ready to win a championship this year?
None of the things you list happened randomly. All were fallout from 26 years of cheap, shoddy, unethical, sticky-fingered management style and lifestyle that put more focus on grabbing other peoples’ money than putting a winner on the field.
I guess if it was me I wouldn’t have hijacked the team with inadequate personal resources. I wouldn’t have been so hungry for more as to participate in multiple Ponzi schemes. I wouldn’t have underspent on the farm so I could invest more money in the Ponzi schemes. I wouldn’t have focused on the Willets Point development scheme to the exclusion of focusing on the ballclub.
Fred’s first mistake, off the bat, was probably to tell Frank Cashen how to run a ballclub. He’s controlled operations, along with his idiot son, ever since.
Even at this late date, though, the solutions are simple.
1) Become honest and develop personal integrity. Stop trying to cheat everyone, especially the fans. The goodwill this organization has lost is a big problem.
2) Hire a capable GM, give him the necessary resources and get out of the way. Give Jeffy a sinecure somewhere else.
3) Stop skimming most of your T.V. money into a different corporation (SNY) and reinvest it in the team.
This simple three point plan would be a good start.
"The Fightin' Met With Two Heads" - Mike Tyson/Ray Knight!
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Originally posted by Mongoose View PostNone of the things you list happened randomly. All were fallout from 26 years of cheap, shoddy, unethical, sticky-fingered management style and lifestyle that put more focus on grabbing other peoples’ money than putting a winner on the field.
I guess if it was me I wouldn’t have hijacked the team with inadequate personal resources. I wouldn’t have been so hungry for more as to participate in multiple Ponzi schemes. I wouldn’t have underspent on the farm so I could invest more money in the Ponzi schemes. I wouldn’t have focused on the Willets Point development scheme to the exclusion of focusing on the ballclub.
Fred’s first mistake, off the bat, was probably to tell Frank Cashen how to run a ballclub. He’s controlled operations, along with his idiot son, ever since.
Even at this late date, though, the solutions are simple.
1) Become honest and develop personal integrity. Stop trying to cheat everyone, especially the fans. The goodwill this organization has lost is a big problem.
2) Hire a capable GM, give him the necessary resources and get out of the way. Give Jeffy a sinecure somewhere else.
3) Stop skimming most of your T.V. money into a different corporation (SNY) and reinvest it in the team.
This simple three point plan would be a good start.
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Originally posted by rjsallstars View PostMy biggest laugh at the whole anti Wilpon mission is that Shea Stadium was packed before closing and people were throwing around all sorts of money to get into Citi Field in 2009. Many of those currently on the anti Wilpon mission were those same people who proudly proclaimed "life long Met fan status" during the end of Shea, beginning of Citi period. I wonder how many on here would be able to forgive the villian Wilpons if they gave them a winning product? Would they care about all the peoples lives the Wilpons ruined? Would they care about the poor Madoff victims who also had no suspicions why only they could get 20% rate of return each year? Would they care that the guys who fix transmissions across the street for less because they do not pay taxes would have to find a new place to conduct business at current market value rent. I tend to believe that most, if not all of the "life long Met fan crew" may be more than willing to come back on board when the team begins to win again, which they will, someday. Don't you think it is hypocritical that people who have spent so much time knocking this Ownership group will be so quick to come back when there product is winning again? I wonder how many posts a Fair Weather Fan Thread would generate? Not many, nobody likes to find fault in themselves.
By 2010, the spending was going down, the complaints were going up and it went downhill from there, the curtain got pulled back with Madoff becoming Fredo's, Howard Spira moment but far worse for so many people.
Everyone's seen this act before when a convicted felon x2 got a seventeen minute ovation upon being permanently banned, but the next generation of fans were bought off, the team won and the media sells winning teams which makes a felon, a reborn beloved figure who wants to win more than anything. (while sucking down all the taxpayer cash he can get)
If the spending goes up here, and the team wins the defense of anything done will be defended again with a ton of positive media fertilizer propaganda to influence that generation's perception.
Go team go.
Most of the same players or management that roasted the convicted one all knew where future payday's came from after retirement looked the other way or hopped on the bandwagon because to be anti-ownership is not good for them personally with media who influence the public.
The newspaper needs these teams, they will sell any owner no matter what he represents if it sells papers and the team wins.
Someday when the Mets win and eventually all teams do, Jeff-R-Us will be making his monument for Fredo like the convicted one got in the Bronx, some of the same people who complain now, will be the first to go and praise it.Last edited by WEB; 02-04-2013, 06:25 AM.
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Originally posted by WEB View PostIn 2008 if you were anti-Fredo you were a troll here who must be removed and the enemy of all that is good and right. In 2009 it came off like a civics lesson how for the betterment of New York how generational businesses in that community before Shea must be removed for Fredo Wilpon, and Jeff-R-Us playing boy developer.
By 2010, the spending was going down, the complaints were going up and it went downhill from there, the curtain got pulled back with Madoff becoming Fredo's, Howard Spira moment but far worse for so many people.
Everyone's seen this act before when a convicted felon x2 got a seventeen minute ovation upon being permanently banned, but the next generation of fans were bought off, the team won and the media sells winning teams which makes a felon, a reborn beloved figure who wants to win more than anything. (while sucking down all the taxpayer cash he can get)
If the spending goes up here, and the team wins the defense of anything done will be defended again with a ton of positive media fertilizer propaganda to influence that generation's perception.
Go team go.
Most of the same players or management that roasted the convicted one all knew where future payday's came from after retirement looked the other way or hopped on the bandwagon because to be anti-ownership is not good for them personally with media who influence the public.
The newspaper needs these teams, they will sell any owner no matter what he represents if it sells papers and the team wins.
Someday when the Mets win and eventually all teams do, Jeff-R-Us will be making his monument for Fredo like the convicted one got in the Bronx, some of the same people who complain now, will be the first to go and praise it.
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Originally posted by rjsallstars View PostSad but true. In the words of another legend, the great Al Davis, "Just win baby".
I dont believe some of us will ever be in Wilpons corner regardless of the outcome. That doesnt mean we dont want him to put a winner on the field or spend money properly to do so, but to be a "fan" of Wilpon is something I can never be.
Although Steinbrenner was dispicable for much of the time he was the active owner one thing never waivered - he wanted a winner on the field and did what he felt was necessary to do so - including spending a lot of money. So yes George has a statue because people have short memories, but most of us have not forgotten how horrible he was.
The issue with Wilpon is that he just refuses to put a winner on the field or take the steps to do so. Wilpon has come up with some of the lamest excuses to NOT sign some of the best players of their time to come here. Sometimes by facilitating a smear campaign, or having one of his lackies do so.
Then there is the fact that he was deeply involved in THEE biggest scam in human history which should tell you something about his character. Once the stolen money dried up --- so did the Mets. Much of the dislike of the Wilpons is directly connected to wins and losses. Winning can make people over look a lot of ills as we said of Steinbrenner. With that said, Wilpon has proven himself dispicable beyond repair. If WEB is correct and the Mets win with Wilpon still the owner - he will not be part of the celebration in my minds eye. He will be ignored.
The best Wilpon can do in my estimation is become like a good umpire - you dont know he is there. He should never be celebrated or acknowledged. Anyone that follows this team can see why there was a peak and why the last 4 seasons there has been a deep deep valley. I honestly believe without the stolen money Wilpon doesnt invest that much into putting a winner on the field. This should be obvious because since that dried up the Mets have become a minor league team.Last edited by Paulypal; 02-04-2013, 08:56 AM.
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Can we agree that the majority of "lifelong Met fans" who are claiming to be so appauled by the Wilpons dispicable actions really are staying away because the team currently is not a playoff contender? Can we also agree that most if not all of those same fans will be buying tickets and inquiring about plans/season tickets etc if the team is in a legitimate pennant race in September of 2014 and Sandy's plan actually does produce a winning team, no matter what the payroll is?
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Originally posted by rjsallstars View PostCan we agree that the majority of "lifelong Met fans" who are claiming to be so appauled by the Wilpons dispicable actions really are staying away because the team currently is not a playoff contender? Can we also agree that most if not all of those same fans will be buying tickets and inquiring about plans/season tickets etc if the team is in a legitimate pennant race in September of 2014 and Sandy's plan actually does produce a winning team, no matter what the payroll is?
The corporations are people club are as ruthless and vindictive as Fredo.
Last year's team was eight games over five hundred at the break and in a playoff spot, if they played five hundred in the second half, got a wild card it would be criminal to knock Fredo for most again, all would have been forgiven.
Sadly many New York fans admire the convicted felons x 2 brand of spending like it was done out of pocket and at a loss to him for the good of winning above all when nothing could be further from the truth. It's the only template many Mets fans see for trying to building a winning team.
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Originally posted by rjsallstars View PostCan we agree that the majority of "lifelong Met fans" who are claiming to be so appauled by the Wilpons dispicable actions really are staying away because the team currently is not a playoff contender? Can we also agree that most if not all of those same fans will be buying tickets and inquiring about plans/season tickets etc if the team is in a legitimate pennant race in September of 2014 and Sandy's plan actually does produce a winning team, no matter what the payroll is?
Its not a matter of payroll - I dont care if the payroll is $4. Its about winning. The payroll needs to be whatever supports playing some games in October. Now we all know a payroll of $4 is not going to get it done, but my point is its about winning.
I happen to watch the MLB Network at least 50% of the time that my TV is turned on. Watching this off season I felt like I was getting information, and watching transactions from a league that the Mets were no longer playing in. The Angels, the Dodgers, dominated the top stories, but other teams were mentioned.....at least once. The Mets were no where to be found on anything. Sure there were some fake reports about Upton but that was it. You see and hear other teams trying to improve to compete and yours is not. We actually lost our best OF'er (sad that Hairston can be considered that), and our best pitcher. So the team is actually worse...much worse.
Do any of the Wilpon supporters realize that the Mets dont have an outfield. When a ball is hit through the infield there is no one there to pick it up right now.
After 2008 - I knew 2009-2012 was coming. Before every season despite some of the most optimistic fans it was quite obvious what kind of teams we had. What I didnt know or think possible was that 2013 can quite possibly be the worst of the bunch.
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Originally posted by Paulypal View PostIf they were winning yes it would be different, BUT because of what has come to light in the past few years the Wilpons will always be villified in my book. Can I seperate the team and the Wilpons...yes of course I can, but right now they are a direct reflection of their neglect and a their "couldnt care less" attitude towards its once loyal fan base.
Its not a matter of payroll - I dont care if the payroll is $4. Its about winning. The payroll needs to be whatever supports playing some games in October. Now we all know a payroll of $4 is not going to get it done, but my point is its about winning.
I happen to watch the MLB Network at least 50% of the time that my TV is turned on. Watching this off season I felt like I was getting information, and watching transactions from a league that the Mets were no longer playing in. The Angels, the Dodgers, dominated the top stories, but other teams were mentioned.....at least once. The Mets were no where to be found on anything. Sure there were some fake reports about Upton but that was it. You see and hear other teams trying to improve to compete and yours is not. We actually lost our best OF'er (sad that Hairston can be considered that), and our best pitcher. So the team is actually worse...much worse.
Do any of the Wilpon supporters realize that the Mets dont have an outfield. When a ball is hit through the infield there is no one there to pick it up right now.
After 2008 - I knew 2009-2012 was coming. Before every season despite some of the most optimistic fans it was quite obvious what kind of teams we had. What I didnt know or think possible was that 2013 can quite possibly be the worst of the bunch.
But to me, it's horrendous how ownership/management have run down a franchise that actually (still) has such fans!Cleon Jones catches a deep fly ball in F. Scott Fitzgerald's Valley of the Ashes, and a second-grader smiles in front of the black and white television.
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Originally posted by Strawman View PostThat somebody here can actually type "Sandy's plan" and mean it says a lot about how some fans can delude themselves because they love the team. You know, in some ways I actually have to admire it.
But to me, it's horrendous how ownership/management have run down a franchise that actually (still) has such fans!
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