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Thread: The Mets Ownership / Management Thread

  1. #221
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    Thank goodness for ReyesOfHope. ...among others, of course.
    "And their chances of getting back into this ballgame are growing dimmer by the batter."


    Put it in the books.

  2. #222
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mongoose View Post
    I beg to differ.

    When the off season began, I called the Mets' moves to the letter. I said they'd sign Bay in an effort to appease the fans and move some tickets, but it'd be an empty gesture because they wouldn't spend what was needed to meaningfully improve the club beyond that.

    Looks like I was right.

    How'd I know?

    Because I've been watching the Wilpon regime in action for more than 20 years.

    The Wilpons will spend money, but only for splashy signings of big name free agents. This is not done in an effort to win, but to convince the fans to buy tickets. Look at the overall pattern of spending. They're the cheapest club in the Majors in signing their draft picks; they won't spend anything for non-splashy acquisitions to fill holes - look back at Dunn, Hudson, Abreu, Sheets, Bedard, etc.; instead they send Omar out to root through the garbage and try to find the next Fernando Tatis. If it doesn't grab the back pages, the Wilpons won't spend a cent on it.

    This is because their objective isn't to win, it's to sell tickets. Period. That's why from year to year, the Mets generally project as a top-heavy parody of a good team, with no depth at all: a handful of all-stars sprinkled over a dumpster. It's true that idiotic signings like Perez bloat team payroll somewhat, but the main reason it's so high and the team's so deficient is their strategy of valuing back page headlines over quality.
    I agree with you 100% about the Wilpons approach. They are interested in the bottom line and if they happen to win thats good, but priority one is black ink on the profit/loss statement.

    With that said if you read my post....Omar is the one who has spent their money unwisely. I agree with Reyes of Hope in that 140 million is enough to field a winner and then some, but when you give the 140 to someone that is incompetent these are the results. I have said 1000 times on here that the Mets do not make that over the top move that would put them in the favored to win position...for example for the 20th time....Abreu and Hudson last year for a total of 9 million - thats only 75% of Ollies salary.......frightening when you look at it that way isnt it?

    After further review I put a lot of this mess on Omar's doorstep. Yes the Wilpons carry ultimate responsibility because they employ Omar, but to call them cheap is just ridiculous.

    How would you like to spend 140 million dollars on something, you cant produce a winner, but yet the guy who spent it for you wants to spend more of your money?

    So here is what you have:

    1) Owners that are clueless but willing to spend 140 million on mediocrity. Also they are willing to employ the incompetent. Therefore the Wilpons although rich are not very bright on the baseball front. The Wilpons should be terminated for not terminating Omar

    2) A GM that has become a punchline. He has lost credibility with his bosses and with seemingly every agent/player. Basically a potted plant would be as good a being a GM. No insult to potted plants across the globe was intended.

  3. #223
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    Good post Paulypal. I can only find one fault with it. That is: in the Wilpon era Mets GMs have had no real power.

    Since Fred Wilpon took over a 50% stake in the Mets in November 1986, meddling ownership has been calling the shots. Even the brilliant Frank Cashen was browbeaten into abominations like the Dykstra and McDowell for Samuel trade. If a Frank Cashen had to sign off on deals like that, how much power do you think an Omar Minaya has?

    And in 2010, Jeff Wilpon is the Mets' real General Manager.

    http://www.google.com/search?ie=UTF-...n+Mets+real+gm

    http://metsmerizedonline.com/2009/10...l-manager.html


    Mets Merized Online

    Jeff Wilpon: The Real Mets General Manager?

    Written by Greg Pomes October 15, 2009 at 9:00 pm

    This is a story making the rounds on the web the last 2 days and it has really started to pick up steam. According to ESPN.com’s Peter Gammons, Mets COO Jeff Wilpon is the real general manager for the New York Mets and Omar Minaya is just a puppet, designed to take the heat when seasons like 2009 occur.

    Gammon was on Michael Kay’s radio show yesterday and Kay asked Gammon’s about Omar hiring hitting coach Rudy Jaramillo, with whom he has a strong friendship with, Gammon responded to Michael Kay by saying:

    “But, Omar isn’t the General Manager, Jeff Wilpon is.”

    This is an interesting story, there have been some rumblings that Omar would no longer be employed the Mets right now if it wasn’t for his contract, a contract that is valued at 3.3 million dollars, which is more than some utility guys make.

    The news broke last night that the Mets were not going to hire Rudy Jaramillo, the Mets will be sticking with Howard Johnson as their hitting coach for the 2010 season. There is no secret that Omar enjoys hiring his friends and Omar and Jaramillo have a long friendship as Jaramillo was Omar’s manager in the minor leagues and there is no secret that Jeff Wilpon and his father are big fans of Howard Johnson.

    When Omar took the job of GM it was under the condition of 100% autonomy on baseball activities, including the hiring and firing of coaches. Now there is no word that Omar campaigned for Jaramillo but given his track record of hiring those close to him, one has to believe he would try to hire his long time friend.

    If Jeff Wilpon is really pulling the strings and acting as the GM we are in more trouble than I thought. The Wilpons have shown that they are not great baseball people. Nelson Doubleday, former owner of the Mets and former partner with the Wilpons had this to say in 2003 to the Star Ledger:

    “Mr. Jeff Wilpon has decided that he’s going to learn how to run a baseball team and take over at the end of the year… Run for the hills, boys. I think probably all those baseball people will bail… Jeff sits there by himself like he’s King Tut waiting for his camel.”

    Drama never seems to be too far behind the Mets, hopefully this is just Gammons trying to make a radio appearance more interesting.


    The proof of the pudding is in the eating. The Mets managed to create the same sort of team even in the last years of Frank Cashen's tenure, and he was a genius. Gerry Hunsicker and Al Harazin were the GMs in the run-up to 1993's "Worst Team Money Could Buy"; they took the fall then. Steve Phillips took the fall for the 2002 Mets, which was the same sort of overpaid, underachieving mess.

    Where was Omar then?

    Lousy squads with outrageous payrolls are a very special Wilpon tradition. The problem is they can't fire themselves, so a Phillips or Minaya is brought in to take responsibility and periodically, when the team hits bottom, the figurehead has to fall on his sword. He is then kicked off stage, a new figurehead is recruited, and the cycle repeats itself all over again.
    Last edited by Mongoose; 02-06-2010 at 03:10 AM. Reason: typos


    "The Fightin' Met With Two Heads" - Mike Tyson/Ray Knight!

  4. #224
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mongoose View Post
    Good post Paulypal. I can only find one fault with it. That is: in the Wilpon era Mets GMs have had no real power.

    Since Fred Wilpon took over a 50% stake in the Mets in November 1986, meddling ownership has been calling the shots. Even the brilliant Frank Cashen was browbeaten into abominations like the Dykstra and McDowell for Samuel trade. If a Frank Cashen had to sign off on deals like that, how much power do you think an Omar Minaya has?

    And in 2010, Jeff Wilpon is the Mets' real General Manager.

    http://www.google.com/search?ie=UTF-...n+Mets+real+gm

    http://metsmerizedonline.com/2009/10...l-manager.html


    Mets Merized Online

    Jeff Wilpon: The Real Mets General Manager?

    Written by Greg Pomes October 15, 2009 at 9:00 pm

    This is a story making the rounds on the web the last 2 days and it has really started to pick up steam. According to ESPN.com’s Peter Gammons, Mets COO Jeff Wilpon is the real general manager for the New York Mets and Omar Minaya is just a puppet, designed to take the heat when seasons like 2009 occur.

    Gammon was on Michael Kay’s radio show yesterday and Kay asked Gammon’s about Omar hiring hitting coach Rudy Jaramillo, with whom he has a strong friendship with, Gammon responded to Michael Kay by saying:

    “But, Omar isn’t the General Manager, Jeff Wilpon is.”

    This is an interesting story, there have been some rumblings that Omar would no longer be employed the Mets right now if it wasn’t for his contract, a contract that is valued at 3.3 million dollars, which is more than some utility guys make.

    The news broke last night that the Mets were not going to hire Rudy Jaramillo, the Mets will be sticking with Howard Johnson as their hitting coach for the 2010 season. There is no secret that Omar enjoys hiring his friends and Omar and Jaramillo have a long friendship as Jaramillo was Omar’s manager in the minor leagues and there is no secret that Jeff Wilpon and his father are big fans of Howard Johnson.

    When Omar took the job of GM it was under the condition of 100% autonomy on baseball activities, including the hiring and firing of coaches. Now there is no word that Omar campaigned for Jaramillo but given his track record of hiring those close to him, one has to believe he would try to hire his long time friend.

    If Jeff Wilpon is really pulling the strings and acting as the GM we are in more trouble than I thought. The Wilpons have shown that they are not great baseball people. Nelson Doubleday, former owner of the Mets and former partner with the Wilpons had this to say in 2003 to the Star Ledger:

    “Mr. Jeff Wilpon has decided that he’s going to learn how to run a baseball team and take over at the end of the year… Run for the hills, boys. I think probably all those baseball people will bail… Jeff sits there by himself like he’s King Tut waiting for his camel.”

    Drama never seems to be too far behind the Mets, hopefully this is just Gammons trying to make a radio appearance more interesting.


    The proof of the pudding is in the eating. The Mets managed to create the same sort of team even in the last years of Frank Cashen's tenure, and he was a genius. Gerry Hunsicker and Al Harazin were the GMs in the run-up to 1993's "Worst Team Money Could Buy"; they took the fall then. Steve Phillips took the fall for the 2002 Mets, which was the same sort of overpaid, underachieving mess.

    Where was Omar then?

    Lousy squads with outrageous payrolls are a very special Wilpon tradition. The problem is they can't fire themselves, so a Phillips or Minaya is brought in to take responsibility and periodically, when the team hits bottom, the figurehead has to fall on his sword. He is then kicked off stage, a new figurehead is recruited, and the cycle repeats itself all over again.
    I cant argue with any of that.

    If that is entirely accurate then there is no answer. You cant force an owner to sell because he makes stupid deals. So we are stuck with the Wilpons for as long as they want to own the team. Which means we are stuck with lame duck GM's....which means we are in the same boat either way. Instead of an imcompetent GM we have an incomptent owner who is acting as an incompetent GM.

  5. #225
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    Quote Originally Posted by Paulypal View Post
    I cant argue with any of that.

    If that is entirely accurate then there is no answer. You cant force an owner to sell because he makes stupid deals. So we are stuck with the Wilpons for as long as they want to own the team. Which means we are stuck with lame duck GM's....which means we are in the same boat either way. Instead of an imcompetent GM we have an incomptent owner who is acting as an incompetent GM.
    Precisely. Actually, though, it means if people wish to not root for the team or spend their money supporting them, then no one is forcing them.

    At very least, they're keeping the team in New York.
    "And their chances of getting back into this ballgame are growing dimmer by the batter."


    Put it in the books.

  6. #226
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    Quote Originally Posted by milladrive View Post
    Precisely. Actually, though, it means if people wish to not root for the team or spend their money supporting them, then no one is forcing them.

    At very least, they're keeping the team in New York.
    It would be a shame if the attendance took a beating in the second year of new park and 140 million dollar payroll team, but that is whats going to happen if they start slow.

    I am hoping for a good start here, a good middle and a good finish. Negative has been easy to be but its not where I want to be and I am sure no fan wants to be.

  7. #227
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    Say what you will about ownership, across the soiund the owner has historically been far more meddling, far more incompetent and far more of an embarassment and yet there have been stretches (since 94 and pre 81) where they have overcome that and nwo that he is older and in ill health the worm has turned and their are murmurings of eventual enshrinement in Cooperstown. So I think ownership can be overcome (Charlie Finley is another example) but it would be nice to see a coherent vision or plan rather than perpetual scrambling to stick ones fingers into the next leak in the dike.

  8. #228
    So I think ownership can be overcome (Charlie Finley is another example) but it would be nice to see a coherent vision or plan rather than perpetual scrambling to stick ones fingers into the next leak in the dike.
    I don't think that's too much to ask for. There's been little proof of a plan, which, imo, is the biggest issue.
    Sign Cespedes & Murphy

  9. #229
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    You know how the advertising banners here are often dictated by the content of the threads?

    Well I clicked on this thread yesterday, and look what I found!

    Attached Images Attached Images


    "The Fightin' Met With Two Heads" - Mike Tyson/Ray Knight!

  10. #230
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mongoose View Post
    I almost find myself wishing for things to finally bottom out so that Fred and Jeff will just sell the team. I don’t see much hope of significant change until then.

    Thoughts?
    That stinks. I find myself doing the same thing just like I used to do with the Jets until they got a new owner over there - one that had the good sense to realize quality management = quality franchise. It only took the Jets 40 years to put together a top-notch organization. Does anyone see Fred and Ethyl figuring things out within the next 20 years? I would love to be positive about this franchise (like I can now be with the Jets)... hard to be enthusiastic as a 46 year old fan. The realization is that Jeff Wilpon will likely own this team for the rest of my life.
    Last edited by Gr8Beldini; 04-20-2010 at 09:53 AM.

  11. #231
    Quote Originally Posted by Gr8Beldini View Post
    That stinks. I find myself doing the same thing just like I used to do with the Jets until they got a new owner over there - one that had the good sense to realize quality management = quality franchise. It only took the Jets 40 years to put together a top-notch organization. Does anyone see Fred and Ethyl figuring things out within the next 20 years? I would love to be positive about this franchise (like I can now be with the Jets)... hard to be enthusiastic as a 46 year old fan. The realization is that Jeff Wilpon will likely own this team for the rest of my life.
    I'm on the same page but we don't need a new owner. We need this one to realize he needs a baseball mind to run the baseball business. If he trends towards Dolan, we'll be lost forever. If the Rangers and Knicks were as popular as the Mets they'd burn down MSG.
    Sign Cespedes & Murphy

  12. #232
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    Quote Originally Posted by milladrive View Post
    Precisely. Actually, though, it means if people wish to not root for the team or spend their money supporting them, then no one is forcing them.

    At very least, they're keeping the team in New York.
    Lets not kid ourselves. As taxpayers, we spend our money supporting them whether we want to or not. And they're not doing us any favors keeping the team in NY. If the Wilpons leave for greener pastures, another team would move here inside of 15 minutes and that team will be... I'm getting goosebumps just thinking about it... Wilpon free.

  13. #233
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gr8Beldini View Post
    Lets not kid ourselves. As taxpayers, we spend our money supporting them whether we want to or not. And they're not doing us any favors keeping the team in NY. If the Wilpons leave for greener pastures, another team would move here inside of 15 minutes and that team will be... I'm getting goosebumps just thinking about it... Wilpon free.
    I'm trying to unravel the pretzel logic here. That team you speak of would also be... I'm getting horrified just thinking about it... Met free. Would you follow the Mets to those greener pastures, or would you simply sell your loyalties to whatever new team moves in?

    And let's not kid ourselves. The Wilpons pay more in annual taxes than both of us together net in a decade. ...And as long as we're on the topic of taxes, MSG hasn't paid property taxes since Koch was mayor. Ranger and Knick popularity aside, burn the place down anyway.

    Anyhow, on behalf of the majority of Mets forum members and the entire staff of Baseball-Fever, you're to be commended for locating the one thread herein where unbridled single-sighted Met-hating is tolerated without reproach.
    "And their chances of getting back into this ballgame are growing dimmer by the batter."


    Put it in the books.

  14. #234
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    Quote Originally Posted by milladrive View Post

    Anyhow, on behalf of the majority of Mets forum members and the entire staff of Baseball-Fever, you're to be commended for locating the one thread herein where unbridled single-sighted Met-hating is tolerated without reproach.
    If I hated the Mets, I wouldn't be this upset. And the overwhelming majority of Mets fans feel exactly the same way. This is frustrating and it's not going to end any time soon.

  15. #235
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    I was taught at a very early age that in order to hate something, one must also either love it or have loved it at some time. Nothing else is worth such passion. The only way to hate them is to love them.

    And frankly, you haven't been around this place long enough to speak for the "overwhelming majority" of Baseball-Fever Met fans. Most here have a distaste for unbalanced energy. The overwhelming majority of Met fans here know how to balance the frustrations which come with the natural territory of being a Met fan with a healthy portion of levity and comradery. They also understand that Baseball-Fever is a low noise environment. But I believe we've discussed most of this already.

    It's a like it or lump it sort of thing, because you're correct, the frustrations are indeed not going to end any time soon. But I assure you, our discourse about it will.
    "And their chances of getting back into this ballgame are growing dimmer by the batter."


    Put it in the books.

  16. #236
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    [QUOTE=milladrive;1722990] The overwhelming majority of Met fans here know how to balance the frustrations which come with the natural territory of being a Met fan with a healthy portion of levity and comradery.QUOTE]


  17. #237
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    http://www.nytimes.com/2010/05/14/sp...ndance.html?hp

    Attendance is down substantially... And the team isn't even doing so badly.

    I have my theories, but... Why do you suppose that is?
    Last edited by Mongoose; 05-15-2010 at 02:38 AM.


    "The Fightin' Met With Two Heads" - Mike Tyson/Ray Knight!

  18. #238
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mongoose View Post
    http://www.nytimes.com/2010/05/14/sp...ndance.html?hp

    Attendance is down substantially... And the team isn't even doing so badly.

    I have my theories, but... Why do you suppose that is?
    After the last three years 2007 monumental collapse.....2008 moderate collapse....2009 THE DISASTER..........2009/2010 offseason not addressing the teams biggest needs......... The fans are in a wait and see mode before they lay out the commitment and the money to invest in a half-ass team. The fans as a whole were not going to be fooled again by an early 9-1 homestand. The were not going to be fooled again by some early hot streaks by very mediocre players such as Francouer. No need to invest early when Reyes doesnt start the season because of who knows what really (you say thyroid..I say HGH issues).... The debacle that is Carlos Beltrans knee, and the rift with the front office and crack medical staff...or medical staff on crack. Who wants to go out and see Ollie throw 3 innings? Nobody wants to pay to see David Wright turn into David Wrong, and the new 80 million dollar player Jason Bay of Pig. Its not cheap to go to a game, and the economy, although recovering slowly, still isnt good. Why throw money away on a sub-par product.

    As a Met fan I am glad the crowds are sparse at Citi Morgue. With current ownership it would be horrible if the park was filled for this collection misfit toys. Nobody wants a Charlie in the Box. The Wilpons only get a message when it hits the wallet. The less people that show the bigger the message that the fans, as the Who, Wont Get Fooled Again.

    I said it all off-season. This team will have to take a step backwards to go forward. I was met with much resistance when the snow was on the ground, but that is whats going to have to happen.
    Last edited by Paulypal; 05-15-2010 at 08:45 AM.

  19. #239
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    Jason Bay of Pig
    Kudos if that is original.

  20. #240
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mongoose View Post
    http://www.nytimes.com/2010/05/14/sp...ndance.html?hp

    Attendance is down substantially... And the team isn't even doing so badly.

    I have my theories, but... Why do you suppose that is?
    I posted this elsewhere, but it could have been easily missed. Thankfully, if only to confirm a theory or two, part of my reasoning was alluded to in the article.

    A vast number of tix haven't been sold in packages this year. Last year's losing season has a bit to do with it, as does little faith in this season, the catering to the wealthy, and Citi Field's poorly designed playing field.

    But I think the biggest part of the equation is people feel the Wilpons are asking too much, all the while as they continue to play games with the pricing schemes. Even I think, given all that's gone on, there's little excuse for asking no less than five digits for season tix to even the least expensive seats. People don't like to get rooked.

    On the other hand, we have five more fingers. Some great seats at StubHub at some great prices.
    Last edited by milladrive; 05-15-2010 at 01:32 PM.
    "And their chances of getting back into this ballgame are growing dimmer by the batter."


    Put it in the books.

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