I wonder if a banner with this text would be okay...
METS ALWAYS DELIVER OLD FASHIONED FUN
Put it in the books
I wonder if a banner with this text would be okay...
METS ALWAYS DELIVER OLD FASHIONED FUN
X
Ray Manzarek, 1939-2013
Put it in the books
Fixed the caption for you...Originally Posted by Mongoose
For the last freakin' time...
It's FAKE YANKEE STADIUM FAIL!
NOT "FAKE EBBETS FIELD FAIL!"
FAKE EBBETS FIELD SUCCEED!
X
Ray Manzarek, 1939-2013
Team Veteran
http://mobile.newsday.com/inf/infomo...ed:i=1.3754315
Fredo agrees to settlement
Under the terms of the agreement approved by Judge Jed Rakoff , trustee Irving Picard agreed to drop his $303 million lawsuit against Fred Wilpon , Saul Katz and their partners in Sterling Equities in exchange for their paying back $162 million in profits received through Madoff's Ponzi scheme.
Picard also agreed to accept claims by the Sterling partners for $177 million in losses in the scam.
Registered User
I guess we found out!
Congratulations!
-Doug
20-Game "A" Plan, Prom Box 423.
27, and nobody has more..
Mr Realtime Bill Maher is one of the new minority owners of the New York Mets..
http://www.thedailybeast.com/cheats/...e-in-mets.html
http://www.twitvid.com/3TOYJ
Last edited by DN4L; 06-03-2012 at 07:26 PM.
"We're relying on you to take the memories from this stadium, and add them to the new memories we make at the new Yankee Stadium, and continue to pass them on from generation to generation." Derek Jeter: September 21, 2008.
Registered User
I guess when you get on the commish's bad side , the rules are different !
A federal grand jury is investigating the finances of the Dodgers under McCourt, including the possibility of tax evasion, said a person familiar with the matter who declined to be identified because the probe isn’t public. The Los Angeles Times reported the probe last week.
In a bankruptcy filing, Major League Baseball alleged McCourt “looted” $189 million from the Dodgers for personal use, a claim his lawyers said couldn’t be supported.
Now, if Mongoose is correct about the Mets TV money.........
http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2012-0...rs-agenda.html
Registered User
It's not a matter of me being correct. I just repeat numbers published in Forbes and elsewhere. It's a long thread with links...
Wilpon takes the T.V. money under a separate corporate entity - SNY. Usually teams use their own regional sports networks to shelter T.V. income from revenue sharing so they can invest it in their team. The Wilpons use SNY to stick it in their pockets.
McCourt didn't have the benefit of a RSN to hide money and mislead fans about being too broke to sign anyone. Still, in spite of everything he was pumping more money into his team with almost certainly lower revenue than the Coupons:
http://espn.go.com/mlb/team/salaries...ngeles-dodgers
So now he's got more problems, but not Fred and Saul. Somehow they're made of gold and coated with teflon. The entire System - MLB and beyond - seems to circle its wagons around them, a disturbing number of fans defend them, NYC is now spending billions to remove their neighbors and build them a neighborhood. They haven't signed anyone good in 2 1/2 years. All they've done is strip the team of talent, yet somehow with a Pythagorean W-L of 26-28, the team has a record of 31-23.
It's all a big enigma.
"The Fightin' Met With Two Heads" - Mike Tyson/Ray Knight!
Team Veteran
They could go 162-0, sweep the playoffs and world series, and spend a billion on payroll, that aspect makes no difference.
Registered User
Fred and Saul got away scot free with their role in the Madoff scandal.
Now this:
http://www.nydailynews.com/new-york/...icle-1.1096174
Willets Point land a shameful steal of a deal for Mets
City is on the way to paying $500 million for tract and gifts 23 acres to Wilpons and partners for retail, entertainment and hotel complex by Citi Field
NEW YORK DAILY NEWS
Friday, June 15, 2012, 6:30 AM
Mets CEO Fred Wilpon and partner Steve Ross of The Related Companies will get 23 acres of land for Willets Point redevelopment, but won't have to start building any residential housing until 2025.
ONLY in Michael Bloomberg’s New York are we asked to believe that giving away huge swaths of city-owned land to millionaires is a wonderful deal.
The mayor announced Wednesday that the city had selected the Wilpons, of the Mets and Sterling Equities, and Steve Ross of The Related Companies, to develop 23 acres of land in the Willets Point redevelopment area in Queens.
The Wilpon-Ross partnership, Queens Development Group, will be handed this land completely free of charge, so it can build its own new retail, entertainment and hotel complex adjacent to the Mets’ Citi Field.
Yes, free land, even though the city is on track to spend nearly $500 million buying that very land from scores of industries and auto repair firms that operated there for decades, putting in new sewer lines, and erecting new Long Island Expressway ramps.
Free land, even though Queens Development has committed to developing only one-third of the entire 60-acre Willet Points project City Council approved back in 2008.
Queens Development won’t even have to begin construction on a single unit of residential housing — part of the original lure of the project — until 2025.
“How do you give away 23 acres of land for nothing?” Jerry Antonacci wants to know. He has run Crown Container, a waste hauling and recycling plant in Willets Point for nearly 40 years and has been battling the city’s efforts to move him out. “This is like the biggest heist ever,” Antonacci said, “We all knew the Wilpons wanted our land for themselves all along, and now they got it.”
But when City Hall originally got Council’s approval for Willets Point, there was no mention of giveaways or of the Wilpons as a possible developer.
Just the opposite.
Back then, Bloomberg’s aides assured the Council that any taxpayer money spent on Willets Point would be recouped when the city sold the land to a developer that would be chosen later.
Council was understandably skeptical. For one thing, all previous development projects always had a developer’s name attached to them when they came up for vote. This one didn’t.
Then there was the big city money upfront for acquiring private land.
On Oct. 17, 2008, for instance, then-Deputy Mayor Robert Lieber was grilled by former City Councilman Hiram Monserrate about the land sales.
“Our goal would be to get the city taxpayer money back out of this,” Lieber said
“In the sale of the properties?” Monserrate asked.
“That’s correct,” Lieber said.
Lieber conceded that if potential developers claimed the cost of cleaning up the polluted land was too high, the city might agree to “get less for land.” He never said anything about free land.
Back then, the city’s skin in the game was $400 million. That has now gone up by another $80 million to build the LIE ramps for the project.
Back then, the project’s timeline was five to 10 years. It included a convention center, a new school, twice as much housing.
Now, you won’t see any housing open for maybe 15 years. No convention center. No school. And two-thirds of the Willets Point site will remain undeveloped and polluted possibly for decades.
“We are thrilled to have been selected by the City to . . . rejuvenate Willets Points into a stunning, new, mixed-use neighborhood,” Jeff Wilpon said as he stood next to Bloomberg.
Sure, they’re thrilled. You’d be, too, if you had just been handed 23 acres of land paid for by taxpayers, right next door to your own new baseball stadium.
Meanwhile Alderson has cut payroll to the bone and has indicated he's not going to spend any real money on acquisitions for the foreseeable future.
The current team isn't so far away from being a real contender. I said that last year. Had they retained Pagan, Beltran and Reyes they would have had extra pieces they could have dealt for pitching. Failing to spend a cent to acquire any further players just wastes the decent core of talent the team actually has.
You have to wonder how much money is enough for Fred and Saul? I guess to make a whole lot of money, you have to make it your main priority.
Too bad championship baseball isn't anywhere on their to-do list.
"The Fightin' Met With Two Heads" - Mike Tyson/Ray Knight!
Registered User
How this Willets Point thing has panned out is pretty disgusting. Just shows you that there are no real consequences for people with money and connections...
As for the bold, its the very definition of insanity. How many more times do you want to see the same show over and over again?
Registered User
Beltran and Pagan are having great seasons. Reyes is healthy and putting up a .278/.356/.395 line - .307/.386/.422 since April. Trade some of the better depth players (currently starters) for positions of need and the team would have been a real contender.
The Wilpons decided to dump the salaries instead. They're killing the team by sticking SNY profits in their pockets rather than reinvesting them in the team. Word from Alderson is they don't plan on spending money anytime soon. In a way it's more frustrating than if the team was actually bad.
"The Fightin' Met With Two Heads" - Mike Tyson/Ray Knight!
Team Veteran
The same Daily News on Sunday gave this joke of a development a rousing endorsement in the name of Fredo's bank account.
Registered User
Not quite. If the Mets went 1-6 or 6-1 he'd still do nothing and spend nothing. Sandy's just doing what he was brought here to do - cut expenses for the Wilpons.
The horrible bullpen was mostly assembled in one day, mainly to wipe the Reyes non-tendering off the sports pages. Nobody thought it'd be any good but it keeps finding new ways to lose. Never a dull moment. Other than that Mike Baxter's the only off-season acquisition I can think of offhand. There's no way they'd have taken on salary at the deadline under any circumstances. This organization is past the point of being shamed into action.
Madoff or no Madoff, the Coupons are through spending money on this team for the foreseeable future. I don't know why you keep focusing on Alderson. He's just the latest puppet for the cheapskates to hide behind while they weasel out of blame. Alderson sucks, but the Wilpons are responsible.
"The Fightin' Met With Two Heads" - Mike Tyson/Ray Knight!
Registered User
I brought this up in the Alderson thread. The Mets have the 14th highest payroll in MLB, behind such "big market" teams like the Twins and the Brewers. I have no problem with them trading Beltran for Wheeler.....but they could have at least TRIED to sign Beltan after the 2011 season (effectively renting Beltran to the SF Giants for 3 months and getting Wheeler) for a $5 million discount from his 2011 salary. That would have put the Mets salary at $106 million, behind ten other teams , 9 of whom are in smaller markets than NYC.
But fans on baseball fever think that the Mets can do no wrong. They think that adding salary, which does not come out of their own pockets, is BAD for the team even if it meant having Carlos Beltran in left field while the $18 million dollar mistake , Jason Bay, is on the DL....or Beltran is in RF and try Duda out in left. But noooooooo. The Mets must cut salary....even while the cost of many seats at Citi have gone up in price due to increases (like some baseline box) or due to 'dynamic pricing'. yes, I know many seats have been reduced....but so has the Mets payroll !
Would it be too much to ask for the Mets owners to try to spend a few bucks and get some relief help, or should we just sit back and be thankful that the Mets won't be humiliated by the Yankees again this season?
Team Veteran
Mongoose I would be terribly disappointed to ever learn your dislike of Fredo and Jeff R Us is based only on win loss record or payroll and if they spent more and won you would feel differently.
Some things go beyond winning, losing and payroll.
Registered User
I never considered them resigning Beltran. It would have made sense. They should have. But I realized they're completely indifferent to winning. Beltran would have cost the Wilpons money. Imagining them resigning Beltran would have been like imagining them signing Pujols. If I'm going to live in fantasy, I might as well pretend to have a mansion made of gold and a harem.
Not sure if anyone's noticed, but Alderson specializes in lying techniques meant to squelch fan expectations. My favorite was how, rather than just announce they were going to cut $50 million from payroll, he kept lying about the amount of money available. Every few news conferences projected payroll would drop $10 million. It was all about defusing fan outrage. From $130 million to $120 to $110 to $100, before settling at $90 million. Coining the phrase "payroll flexibility" was cute, too. Lots of fans bought it and figured the savings would be used to sign useful salaries other teams might want to dump if the Mets were somehow competitive. Ha!
I'm not sure why some fans act like Wilpon saving money, fielding an inferior team, and pocketing the difference benefits them. I think for some high rollers exploiting the system is a kind of spectator sport and rooting for Fred and Saul to loot and pillage is sort of like rooting for the laundry. Just a theory.
What do you think Mandrake?
Fred, Saul & Spawn are foul people, but the only reason they're on my radar is because I'm a Mets fan. The Mets' problems are a direct result of their foulness.
Since when has a "rebuilding" team ever drafted their top picks pretty much entirely on the basis of whether they'd sign for less than slot? This past draft, hanging on to Reyes past the trading deadline to draw a few more fans and then letting him go for basically nothing, etc. puts the lie to the idea they're rebuilding anything but their finances. Of course I remember the arrogant tapeworm destroying the 1986 team. I could go on, but I won't.
Of course I'm aware they view employees, customers, neighbors, community, etc. mainly as marks to be swindled. I don't especially wish them well. At a certain point, though, one has to quit worrying about all the villains of this world and focus on one's own concerns. I try not to think about the Wilpons. I wish they'd help me do this by selling the Mets.
"The Fightin' Met With Two Heads" - Mike Tyson/Ray Knight!
Registered User
With the Angels' acquisition of Zack Grienke, and the Mets' failure to do a damned thing to patch the hull while there was still a chance, I had to post this article again. The problem isn't that the Mets don't generate enough revenue, it's that they're owned by a family of thieving, blood-leeching, Met-hating scum who stick the Mets vast TV revenue into their pockets. They then send their slimy mouthpiece out to do his snake oil salesman routine for the media, Sandy Alderson's sole area of superiority to Omar Minaya.
So are the Mets rebuilding? Take a good look at the past two drafts under Alderson. Until the very late rounds they only take guys who'll sign under slot. Most of the higher picks have very low ceilings. Does Sandy know more than all the scouts and draft rating services? His other personnel moves have sucked, and most of us knew they would when he made them, so I'd say no. Besides, if he honestly thought Stankiewicz, for example, was a great prospect he would have paid him slot.
This team is not rebuilding. The Wilpons are slashing costs and couldn't care less about the product they put on the field.
Think of the joy each of us would get from winning Mets baseball. Then multiply that joy by millions of Mets fans. Then multiply that by 26 years of Wilpon. If it was possible to give that stolen joy physical substance, and build a vessel to contain it, how big would it be? The size of a mountain? The size of a continent?
The only real positive going forward is Fred and Saul won't be around forever and Jeff strikes me as an empire loser. Unfortunately the Mets championship drought might be a half Century or more if and when Jeffy blows it.
"The Fightin' Met With Two Heads" - Mike Tyson/Ray Knight!
Team Veteran
Here's the problem for you, at some point they are going to win on the field which means you are going to root for their team to win.
Me? I want their Brooklyn Dodger Stadium gone, their ownership of the team gone, any dream of their Brooklyn neighborhood gone.
Win or lose nothing else matters above that.
Registered User
If they were ever really, really good it might be a dilemma, but I don't think that will happen under current ownership. I think the Coupons have realized that they can make more money with a cheap bad team than an expensive good team. It's like a baseball version of the film "The Producers".
With a pre-season contender, scare tactics and bullying fans into season plans they only drew 3.2 million in 2009, "Citi" Field's inaugural season. Why only 3.2 million? Because the stadium was built undersized, and most of the seats are in the expensive lower bowl. As I've said before, in their ravenous greed they botched the layout of the stadium. Beyond a certain point, it'll be hard for the Mets to approach "Citi" Field's full capacity. They basically capped attendance for themselves at a bit over 3 million. Because Shea could draw over 4 million a year it paid to spend money on a winner because the difference between a good team and a bad team could be over 2 million customers. The difference here is less than a million, which can be compensated for by slashing payroll. Last year they drew about 2.3 million. They're on a pace for that this season. I think 2 million or so represents a kind of floor for attendance.
In Fred's New Yorker article last year, it said 200,000 in attendance equals $25 million in revenue. Big market payroll should be around $170 million. I think their goal is about $70 million. The $100 million in shaved payroll just about matches the loss of attendance revenue separating a supposed contender from a loser. Their profit winds up being about the same. Makes no difference to the Wilpons.
From their perspective, if they spent more and tried to win there would be no guarantees it'd work. Even if they did win it would take time for attendance to rise. Because of how the stadium is designed, potential benefit from a winning team is capped anyway. I suspect it'll be "rebuilding" after "rebuilding" going forward. I wonder how long people will keep buying into the swindle?
That said, the Dodgers just claimed Cliff Lee off waivers. I think he's still owed $110 million in salary. They're serious about making the post season and going deep into it. See what can happen when nihilistic swindlers are forced to sell a team?
Last edited by Mongoose; 08-03-2012 at 08:38 PM.
"The Fightin' Met With Two Heads" - Mike Tyson/Ray Knight!
Team Veteran
They have the 14th highest payroll, of course the team can win.
For me their identity is gone forever with their true home instead of that thing they play in now, baseball's identity is gone in New York because it's entirely corporate which began around 1998-1999.
It's just no longer special in this market for any baseball team.
Paulypal
I disagree. Although we all like Shea because although it was a rat hole...it was our rat hole. The stadium needed to be changed.
When you say they have the 14th highest payroll that doesnt sound bad....except that it was the always in the top 5, and they still couldnt get it done. Its 14th and dropping. You say "of course they can win", and I say "of course they cant". Not like this. The Wilpons will never be interviewed while holding the WS trophy. Never.
Baseball will always be special in this market...As long as the Yankees are in this market baseball will be tops. Plain simple truth.
Team Veteran
Shea was the Mets home and identity, the only thing it needed was a renovation, Fredo needed it changed for his real estate Brooklyn Dodger neighborhood. Baseball was falling off a cliff in the late 90's as to what made it special, now it's just people rooting for high payrolls/names in New York or media here selling their ads to make money so the hype is tabloid now more than ever. The days of any market winning and sustaining it is gone forever unless you spend, the brand is ruined see Pittsburgh, Kansas City, Oakland.
For this generation it's a different kind of special, not what made the baseball really fun when a team did win.
As long as owners spend fans today forgive and forget eventually.
It's a broken sport.
Last edited by WEB; 08-04-2012 at 07:34 AM.
Registered User
Yeah that's just what the rest of the league said about John McGraw's Giants in the 19-teens!
Cleon Jones catches a deep fly ball in F. Scott Fitzgerald's Valley of the Ashes, and a second-grader smiles in front of the black and white television.
Paulypal
I dont think I ever disagreed with a post more than I do this one, and I have read almost all of Strawman's and Shea Knights posts.
They needed a new stadium, just not the Jackie Robinson Memorial Stadium Brooklyn Dodger Tribute Stadium of Flushing Queens of New York. But they needed a new stadium.
I love these in the "days of yore" statements. "The days of any market winning and sustaining it is gone forever unless you spend". Really? In the days of Yore who won? Did every team compete. In the 40's, 50, and 60's was every team given an equal shot?
How many WS did the Cubs, Red Sox, Senators, KC A's, Phillies, (the list can go on) win in the days of yore? Baseball has always been a game of the haves and have nots. Sure sometimes a surprise team pops up and shocks everyone, but for the most part its the same handful of team expected to win. Expected doesnt mean a thing though because:
For your information since the Super Bowl has been a part of our culture baseball has crowned the most different champions than any other pro sport. So for all the salary cap crap, and parity, everyone and their mother makes the playoff sports its baseball that has the most diverse set of winners.
The rest of the sports world is broken... Baseball is just fine.
As Billy Joel said "the good ole days werent always so good, and tomorrow is not as bad as it seems"
Team Veteran
Fredo Wilpon wanted a new corporate toy, the media wanted a nicer press box, bigger interview area's, more nice places to eat for themselves and they sold that white elephant to the public.
You read something enough you believe anything.
Shea is a dump, Shea is a dump, Yankee Stadium had to go because Mike Francesa needed to go to the press box area to use the bathroom.
Cue Randy Levine, Jeff R Us wearing his hardhard building this flawed pile of junk.
Those people needed and wanted a new stadium, while Dodgers Stadium and others go on without the rhetoric here. Doubleday wanted a renovation, Fredo wants his Brooklyn ballpark and neighborhood while 2x convicted felon in the south bronx got a neighborhood inside a ballpark.
The difference in between then and now is other teams get paid more to spend less, the Pirates (many other teams) make money by spending less via revenue sharing so x corporation has a 2/3-1 spending advantage every year.
All corporate, all sponsorships, all television money.
Broken system with a generation of fans now who simply are so used to it they don't see it. Many Met fans did not care when Fredo spent more, now that he spends less they want him out for that above all.
Mr Joel played Shea, his contribution was memorable because it was a time things were special.
This sums up baseball and especially in New York best because that's the mindset of many Met fans:
SteinbrennerFans..jpg
Last edited by WEB; 08-04-2012 at 03:16 PM.
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