The Collaboration Game v2.0 – A New Ranking: Election #17

[Freakshow]

Here is a link to the last election.

Please note that the runoff election now asks you to rank your top 8. This is due to the expansion of the ballot to 18 players. At least 9, but no more than 15 players, will be added to the list.
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This is the official Roster of Voters who are eligible to vote in this election:

bambambaseball
Brad Harris
dgarza
Freakshow
gman5431
jalbright
jjpm74
leecemark
mwiggins
Sockeye
STLCards2

If anyone else would like to join in and vote, go to the introductory thread and apply; you're in if there are no objections from any current voters. Also refer to that thread for a fuller understanding of the rules, especially posts #1, #24 and #28.
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Each voter must do three things:

1) Rank these 18 players in order. As always, players should be ranked based on hall of fame criteria, the sum of all their contributions to the game. Exception: Players whom the hall of fame has (or will be) elected as managers or other contributors (McGraw, Griffith, Torre, Spalding, Rube Foster, etc.) should be ranked only on the contribution from their playing. Active players should be ranked on their value to date, not projecting them to how you think they will end up.:

Rank			        WARP1	WARP3	Peak	WSh	Peak
144	Rafael	Palmeiro	88.5	96.1	8.1	395	28.6
170	Ted	Simmons		68.7	63.5	6.1	315	27.4
168	Joe	Start		33.3	40.2	4.3		
186	Max	Carey		76.1	59.1	5.6	351	26.8
187	Don	Drysdale	73.8	74.8	7.7	258	25.0
188	Billy	Herman		75.8	77.8	7.9	298	28.4
179	Vladimir Guerrero	68.2	68.3	7.4	294	28.6
185	Enos	Slaughter	72.4	72.1	7.3	323	28.8
178	Goose	Gossage		71.0	48.7	6.2	223	20.8
180	Jeff	Kent		79.0	79.9	7.6	339	29.0
182	Sammy	Sosa		69.4	69.6	7.7	322	32.0
184	Red	Ruffing		88.1	80.7	6.9	322	24.0
195	Zack	Wheat		77.1	61.8	6.1	380	29.8
194	Sherry	Magee		72.1	59.4	6.4	354	32.4
204	Ted	Lyons		93.9	88.8	8.2	312	24.8
152	Don	Sutton		79.3	73.1	5.5	319	21.4
196	Lou	Boudreau	86.5	82.6	10.0	277	30.4
201	Ray	Brown			74.2	7.2	313	30.6

2) Next to each name, mark Yes (Y) or No (N) in answer to this question: Can you tolerate this player being ranked among #171-185 on the all-time list?

This is not quite the same as asking “Do you think this player belongs in this group?”; it’s not Yes or No based on your personal rankings. It’s more along the lines “Can you see a good argument for placing this player among the top 185 in history?”

A general guideline I would offer: if a player would be in the top half of your next ballot (#186-194 all-time), you should tolerate him here. Your mileage (and tolerance) may vary. As an aid to this, here are the next eight players that are assured of appearing on the next ballot:

169	Joe	Gordon		68.7	67.4	8.0	242	27.0
202	Jim	Bunning		75.3	69.7	8.6	257	26.0
190	Stan	Coveleski	69.5	71.5	8.7	245	28.4
192	Early	Wynn		90.1	76.3	7.4	309	24.0
189	Joe	Torre		85.4	80.4	8.4	315	29.2
193	Edgar	Martinez	82.5	88.2	8.1	305	27.2
165	Sam	Thompson	61.1	65.5	7.5	236	24.6
174	Charley	Radbourn	36.5	49.0	7.2	391	54.4

3) Rank your top 8 players from this list of upcoming candidates. The top 7 from this runoff will earn a spot on the next ballot (assuming 15 are elected this time):

176	Rube	Foster						
181	Rollie	Fingers		53.2	32.2	4.2	188	16.2
191	Fred	McGriff		63.4	65.6	7.4	341	26.4
197	Darrell	Evans		65.6	62.1	6.2	363	28.4
198	Orlando	Cepeda		67.2	65.1	7.2	310	29.0
199	Carlos	Delgado		58.4	61.2	6.5	298	29.4
200	Willie	Keeler		76.9	76.9	7.7	333	27.0
203	Al	Spalding	18.7	32.0	5.9		
205	Eppa	Rixey		80.0	71.3	5.8	315	24.2
206	Andre	Dawson		64.9	66.1	7.3	340	26.4
207	Pete	Hill						
208	Ralph	Kiner		47.6	47.9	7.2	242	31.0
209	Tony	Perez		75.7	69.1	6.8	349	29.2
210	Bid	McPhee		90.4	77.7	6.3	305	22.4
211	Ezra	Sutton		39.7	43.6	5.5		
212	John	Beckwith		66.1	6.5	316	27.4
213	Heinie	Groh		78.6	68.8	8.2	272	29.6
214	John	Ward		57.1	65.7	5.9	409	37.6
215	Wes	Ferrell		72.6	68.0	9.6	233	29.6
216	Ken	Boyer		60.8	62.0	6.8	279	26.8
217	George	Sisler		55.8	50.1	7.5	292	28.6
218	Bill	Foster					254	27.6
219	Elmer	Flick		74.6	72.8	8.6	291	32.0
220	Lou	Brock		61.4	54.4	5.6	348	28.6

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Notes on charts
--The first column is their rank on the 500 Player List, v1.0.
--Career totals of WARP1 and WARP3 from Baseball Prospectus. WARP was rescaled in late February, so it cannot be compared to prior WARP numbers.
--Average of Top 5 years in WARP3.
--Career total of Win Shares; unadjusted from the book.
--Average of Top 5 years in unadjusted Win Shares.
--Stats for Negro leaguers are adapted from their MLE’s at Baseballthinkfactory. Ray Brown looks like Early Wynn, but with a real peak. Rube Foster compares favorably to the original Rube, Waddell. Pete Hill ranks somewhere between Crawford and Magee. Comparisons to Dick Allen have kept John Beckwith out of the HOF. Bunning and Coveleski appear to be similar in value to Bill Foster.
--Win shares are not really designed to measure earlier players. The numbers shown for Ward and Radbourn are likely to overrate them; OTOH, raw WS numbers for Thompson and McPhee are likely too low.
--Stats for active players do not include the 2009 season.
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It is helpful to me if you only list players by their last name on your ballot (or last name, first initial). If you want to change your ballot some time after it is first posted, make a post in this thread that you have done so. Balloting will continue until everyone has voted, but not more than ten days. I will try to get the results up as soon after this as possible.

Discussion of the rankings, players and rules should take place in this thread. The Game is still On, so bring your arguments why you believe a player should be ranked higher or lower than he is on the 500 Player List.
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So far, we've ranked the following players:
1. Babe Ruth, 2. Ty Cobb, 3. Willie Mays, 4. Honus Wagner, 5. Ted Williams, 6. Walter Johnson, 7. Hank Aaron, 8. Barry Bonds, 9. Stan Musial, 10. Mickey Mantle
11. Lou Gehrig, 12. Rogers Hornsby, 13. Tris Speaker, 14. Oscar Charleston, 15. Cy Young, 16. Mike Schmidt, 17. Eddie Collins, 18. Greg Maddux, 19. Josh Gibson, 20. Lefty Grove
21. Frank Robinson, 22. Joe Morgan, 23. Pete Alexander, 24. Roger Clemens, 25. Jimmie Foxx, 26. Joe DiMaggio, 27. Mel Ott, 28. Nap Lajoie, 29. Alex Rodriguez, 30. Johnny Bench
31. Rickey Henderson, 32. Eddie Mathews, 33. Tom Seaver, 34. Satchel Paige, 35. Pop Lloyd, 36. Warren Spahn, 37. Cap Anson, 38. George Brett, 39. Yogi Berra, 40. Christy Mathewson
41. Jackie Robinson, 42. Randy Johnson, 43. Dan Brouthers, 44. Ed Delahanty, 45. Cal Ripken, 46. Ken Griffey, Jr., 47. Kid Nichols, 48. Turkey Stearnes, 49. Arky Vaughan, 50. Carl Yastrzemski
51. Reggie Jackson, 52. Steve Carlton, 53. Smokey Joe Williams, 54. Frank Thomas, 55. Bob Feller, 56. Pete Rose, 57. Charlie Gehringer, 58. Mike Piazza, 59. Al Kaline, 60. Wade Boggs
61. Jeff Bagwell, 62. Sam Crawford, 63. Johnny Mize, 64. Bob Gibson, 65. Robin Yount, 66. Mickey Cochrane, 67. Roberto Clemente, 68. Duke Snider, 69. Tony Gwynn, 70. Rod Carew
71. Pedro Martinez, 72. Craig Biggio, 73. Carl Hubbell, 74. Buck Leonard, 75. Roy Campanella, 76. Hank Greenberg, 77. Frankie Frisch, 78. Harmon Killebrew, 79. Buck Ewing, 80. Paul Waner
81. Willie McCovey, 82. Roger Connor, 83. Martin Dihigo, 84. Eddie Murray, 85. Ernie Banks, 86. Robin Roberts, 87. Nolan Ryan, 88. Frank Baker, 89. King Kelly, 90. Gary Carter
91. Cristobal Torriente, 92. Billy Hamilton, 93. Gaylord Perry, 94. Al Simmons, 95. Chipper Jones, 96. Sandy Koufax, 97. Tim Raines, 98. Willie Stargell, 99. Phil Niekro, 100. Ryne Sandberg
101. Harry Heilmann, 102. Ed Walsh, 103. Ron Santo, 104. Mule Suttles, 105. Jesse Burkett, 106. Carlton Fisk, 107. Albert Pujols, 108. George Davis, 109. Roberto Alomar, 110. Eddie Plank
111. Jim Palmer, 112. Barry Larkin, 113. Bert Blyleven, 114. Joe Cronin, 115. Tim Keefe, 116. Mark McGwire, 117. John Clarkson, 118. Dick Allen, 119. Bullet Joe Rogan, 120. Jim O'Rourke
121. Paul Molitor, 122. Juan Marichal, 123. Whitey Ford, 124. George Wright, 125. Ivan Rodriguez, 126. Bill Dickey, 127. Dave Winfield, 128. Mordecai Brown, 129. Luke Appling, 130. Fergie Jenkins
131. Tom Glavine, 132. Gabby Hartnett, 133. Dazzy Vance, 134. Bill Dahlen, 135. Deacon White, 136. Manny Ramirez, 137. Gary Sheffield, 138. Mariano Rivera, 139. Paul Hines, 140. Joe Jackson
141. Alan Trammell, 142. Fred Clarke, 143. Billy Williams, 144. Larry Doby, 145. Ozzie Smith, 146. Bobby Grich, 147. Willie Wells, 148. Hal Newhouser, 149. Dennis Eckersley, 150. Louis Santop
151. Kirby Puckett, 152. Jim Thome, 153. Hoyt Wilhelm, 154. Curt Schilling, 155. Pee Wee Reese, 156. Amos Rusie, 157. Goose Goslin, 158. Derek Jeter, 159. Joe Medwick, 160. Jud Wilson
161. John Smoltz, 162. Brooks Robinson, 163. Minnie Minoso, 164. Rube Waddell, 165. Cool Papa Bell, 166. Mike Mussina, 167. Jimmy Collins, 168. Ross Barnes, 169. Richie Ashburn, 170. Lou Whitaker

[jalbright]

1. Billy Herman
2. R. Brown
3. Magee
4. Wheat
5. Ruffing
6. Sutton
7. Slaughter
8. Lyons
9. Kent
10. T. Simmons
11. Gossage
12. Drysdale
13. Boudreau
14. Sosa
15. Carey--down through Max, all are "yes" votes
======================
16. Start--N
17. V. Guerrero--N (not yet, but rising)
18. Palmiero--N

Runoff
1. Ward
2. W. Foster
3. Beckwith
4. Groh
5. Rixey
6. Hill
7. Keeler
8. Perez

[jjpm74]

Ranked Players:

1. Joe Start Y
2. Sherry Magee Y
3. Zach Wheat Y
4. Billy Herman Y
5. Ted Lyons Y
6. Enos Slaughter Y
7. Goose Gossage Y
8. Red Ruffing Y
9. Lou Boudreau Y
10. Vladimir Guerrero Y
11. Ted Simmons Y
12. Ray Brown Y
13. Jeff Kent Y
14. Max Carey Y
15. Don Sutton N
16. Don Drysdale N
17. Sammy Sosa N
18. Rafael Palmeiro N

Runoff:

1. Ezra Sutton
2. Orlando Cepeda
3. Bid McPhee
4. Willie Keeler
5. John Ward
6. George Sisler
7. Ralph Kiner
8. Eppa Rixey

[leecemark]

1) Boudreau
2) Simmons
3) Carey
4) Wheat
5) Magee
6) Brown
7) Lyons
8) Sutton
9) Slaughter
10) Ruffing
11) Gossage
12) Herman
13) Kent
14) Start
15) Drysdale
16) Guerro
N) Sosa
N) Palmerio

Run off
1) Spaulding
2) Ward
3) Hill
4) Keeler
5) Foster, Rube
6) Rixey
7) Kiner
8) Beckwith

[dgarza]

1. Vladimir Guerrero
2. Rafael Palmeiro
3. Sammy Sosa
4. Zack Wheat
5. Billy Herman
6. Sherry Magee
7. Don Sutton
8. Don Drysdale
9. Ted Simmons
10. Red Ruffing
11. Jeff Kent
12. Enos Slaughter
13. Goose Gossage
14. Lou Boudreau - N
15. Ray Brown - N
16. Max Carey - N
17. Ted Lyons - N
18. Joe Start - N


1. George Sisler
2. Al Spalding
3. Ralph Kiner
4. Willie Keeler
5. Orlando Cepeda
6. Elmer Flick
7. Andre Dawson
8. Ken Boyer

[gman5431]

1 Don Drysdale Y
2 Ray Brown Y
3 Enos Slaughter Y
4 Vlady Guerrero Y
5 Jeff Kent Y
6 Don Sutton Y
7 Lou Boudreau Y
8 Billy Herman Y
9 Max Carey Y
10 Zach Wheat Y
11 Ted Lyons Y
12 Red Ruffing N
13 Sherry McGee N
14 Ted Simmons N
15 Goose Gossage N
16 Sammy Sosa N
17 Joe Start N
18 Raffy Palmeiro N

G Rizzle

[gman5431]

1 Lou Brock
2 Rube Foster
3 Andre Dawson
4 George Sisler
5 Pete Hill
6 Ralph Kiner
7 Orlando Cepeda
8 Tony Perez

G Rizzle

[STLCards2]

1. Max Carey
2. Sherry Magee
3. Don Drysdale
4. Don Sutton
5. Vlad Guerrero
6. Zach Wheat
7. Ted Lyons
8. Red Ruffing
9. Ray Brown
10. Billy Herman
11. Ted Simmons
12. Lou Bodreau
13. Joe Start
14. Rafael Palmeiro
15. Jeff Kent
16. Goose Gossage
17. Enos Slaughter N
18. Sammy Sosa N


1. Wes Ferrell
2. Eppa Rixey
3. John Ward
4. Bid McPhee
5. Willie Keeler
6. Elmer Flick
7. George Sisler
8. Darryl Evans

[Sockeye]

1. Rafael Palmeiro Y
2. Don Sutton Y
3. Red Ruffing Y
4. Ted Lyons Y
5. Vladimir Guerrero Y
6. Don Drysdale Y
7. Sammy Sosa Y
8. Zack Wheat Y
9. Sherry Magee Y
10. Jeff Kent Y
11. Enos Slaughter Y
12. Billy Herman N
13. Lou Boudreau N
14. Ted Simmons N
15. Goose Gossage N
16. Max Carey N
17. Joe Start N
18. Ray Brown N

1. Fred McGriff
2. Willie Keeler
3. Carlos Delgado
4. Eppa Rixey
5. Elmer Flick
6. Orlando Cepeda
7. Tony Perez
8. Ralph Kiner

[bambambaseball]

1) Boudreau
2) Simmons
3) Carey
4) Wheat
5) Magee
6) Brown
7) Lyons
8) Sutton
9) Slaughter
10) Ruffing
11) Gossage
12) Herman
13) Kent
14) Start
15) Drysdale
16) Guerro
N) Sosa
N) Palmerio

Run off
1) Spaulding
2) Ward
3) Hill
4) Keeler
5) Foster, Rube
6) Rixey
7) Kiner
8) Beckwith

Eh, Il just go with this. Its close to exact with what Id post anyhow!

[Freakshow]

Eh, Il just go with this. Its close to exact with what Id post anyhow!

Saying "ditto" to another ballot is not really a proper approach to voting. It is contrary to the ideal that we encourage: independent evaluation of the candidates and thoughtful comparisons of their merits. This seems like a blowoff.

I'll let it go this time, but not in future elections.

[Freakshow]

1 Palmeiro
2 Herman
3 Slaughter
4 Boudreau
5 Brown R
6 Simmons
7 Lyons
8 Magee
9 Wheat
10 Drysdale
11 Gossage
12 Ruffing
13 Kent
14 Sosa
15 Carey
16 Start -N
17 Guerrero V -N
18 Sutton D -N

Run-off
1 McPhee
2 Flick
3 Keeler
4 Ferrell W
5 Hill P
6 Sutton E
7 Rixey
8 Foster W

Two voters yet to be heard from:

Brad Harris
mwiggins

[mwiggins]

Sorry for the delay...

1. Carey
2. Wheat
3. Magee
4. Drysdale
5. Gossage
6. Lyons
7. Ruffing
8. Boudreau
9. Simmons
10. Brown
11. Sutton
12. Herman
13. Start
14. Slaughter - N
15. Kent - N
16. Guerrero - N
17. Palmeiro - N
18. Sosa - N

1. Sisler
2. R. Foster
3. McPhee
4. Keeler
5. Ward
6. Rixey
7. Kiner
8. Ferrell

[Brad Harris]

Ranking
1. Boudreau
2. Magee
3. Brown
4. Simmons
5. Carey
6. Wheat
7. Lyons
8. Start
9. Sutton
10. Ruffing
11. Guerrero
12. Gossage
13. Kent
14. Slaughter
15. Herman
16. Palmeiro
17. Drysdale
----------------------------< below this line is a "No" >
18. Sosa

Run Off
1. Sisler
2. Evans
3. Sutton
4. Ward
5. Beckwith
6. Boyer
7. McGriff
8. Groh

[Freakshow]

Rank		        Pts	 Ave	1st	No's
171	Sherry Magee	327	  5.3 	 0	 1
172	Zack Wheat	325	  5.5 	 0	 0
173	Lou Boudreau	302	  7.5 	 3	 2
174	Ted Lyons	299	  7.8 	 0	 1
175	Ray Brown	297	  8.0 	 0	 2
176	Ted Simmons	293	  8.4 	 0	 2
177	Billy Herman	292	  8.5 	 1	 1
178	Don Sutton	291	  8.5 	 0	 2
179	Red Ruffing	290	  8.6 	 0	 1
180	Max Carey	287	  8.9 	 2	 2
181	Enos Slaughter	280	  9.5 	 0	 2
182	Don Drysdale	278	  9.7 	 1	 1
183	Vlad Guerrero	267	 10.7 	 1	 3
184	Goose Gossage	258	 11.5 	 0	 2
185	Jeff Kent	255	 11.8 	 0	 1
Carried over to next election					
	Rafael Palmeiro	244	 12.8 	 2	 6
	Joe Start	238	 13.4 	 1	 5
	Sammy Sosa	226	 14.5 	 0	 7

Runoff Winners		Pts	Bal		
200	Willie Keeler	107	 9		
214	John Ward	 90	 7		
205	Eppa Rixey	 84	 8		
217	George Sisler	 76	 6		
208	Ralph Kiner	 67	 7		
207	Pete Hill	 58	 5		
210	Bid McPhee	 53	 4		
Also-Ran					
176	Rube Foster	 50	 4		
219	Elmer Flick	 45	 4		
198	Orlando Cepeda	 44	 4
203	Al Spalding	 44	 3
212	John Beckwith	 40	 4
211	Ezra Sutton	 38	 3
215	Wes Ferrell	 35	 3
209	Tony Perez	 25	 3
191	Fred McGriff	 24	 2
206	Andre Dawson	 22	 2
197	Darrell Evans	 22	 2
218	Bill Foster	 22	 2
213	Heinie Groh	 20	 2
216	Ken Boyer	 18	 2
220	Lou Brock	 15	 1
199	Carlos Delgado	 13	 1
181	Rollie Fingers	  0	 0

There were five big winners in this election. Ted Lyons established a new record for biggest gain, 30 places, from #204 to #174. Negro league pitcher Ray Brown advanced 26 places, from #201 to #175; Sherry Magee, Zack Wheat and Lou Boudreau moved up 23 places in tandem, from #194-196 to #171-173. The only big loser is Don Sutton, falling 26 spots from #152 to #178.

The Runoff winners that will appear on the next ballot are Keeler, Ward, Rixey, Sisler, Kiner, P. Hill and McPhee. (Points are now calculated on a 15-14-13-12-11-10-9-8 basis.)

See you in election #18.