This is our sixteenth election in this project. The entire rules follow.
This election will run through 11:59:59 PM EDT July 17, 2009.
The prior election, and the ballots of the 1950 voters, are in this thread
Researcher/advocate/mod
This is our sixteenth election in this project. The entire rules follow.
This election will run through 11:59:59 PM EDT July 17, 2009.
The prior election, and the ballots of the 1950 voters, are in this thread
Seen on a bumper sticker: If only closed minds came with closed mouths.
Some minds are like concrete--thoroughly mixed up and permanently set.
Researcher/advocate/mod
Rules
1) All BBF users in good standing may participate. However, if there is more than one vote being cast from any one computer or IP, it must be cleared in advance. Should there be unannounced multiple votes from the same IP, I will investigate the circumstances, and all user names involved may be barred from this project as a result, and all but one of the multiple usernames permanently banned from the site. I only anticipate exceptions for family members living in the same home, but I will entertain requests on other bases. Please note that I and the other mods who participate in the project have the capability of determining the IP from which posts come, and I for one intend to monitor same. I have had to deal with a single user manipulating a project with multiple votes, and I don't intend to repeat the experience.
2) Elections will require a 10 voter quorum. If we do not get ten voters and there are candidate(s) who would be elected no matter what the voters needed to make a quorum did, those candidate(s) will be inducted. Otherwise, no one will be inducted. Further, if we fail to meet a quorum in two of any four consecutive elections, the project will end. If, for instance, we're doing fine on the player end but not the contributor end, I would drop the contributor end under this rule.
3) We will start in 1936, just as Cooperstown did. For the first election (1936), voters will rank their top 20, taking 10. After that we will go to having voters rank their top 12 players. Points awarded 12-11-10, etc. We will take the top five through 1940, then top three players per year elected until 2010, then two per year. If a voter does not number his selections, I will try to get him/her to do so. If they do not do so before the end of the election period, I may in my sole discretion invalidate the ballot. I have included this provision in order to ease the process of recording the votes. On another point, I know, the 1936 backlog is huge--but that was a historical issue they couldn't avoid, so neither will we.
4) We will also have a contributor ballot, which will elect one a year through 1985, then one every three (3) years. Contributors will be ranked 1 through 5, with points awarded 5-4-3-2-1. Voters may choose to participate in either one of the ballots or both.
5) It is permissible to vote for a candidate on both the contributor and player lists.
6) You are allowed to change your ballot at any time the ballot is open. However, if you change your ballot, you've got to notify me (jalbright) by PM or by a new post in the voting thread, or the changes likely will not be registered.
7) Players are eligible at the later of age 45 or the first year thereafter in which the player does not play. If the birthdate is not known, add five years to the first time the player misses a season and has less than 10 games the next season. There is an exception for early death, in which case the year of death plus two will be used if that yields an earlier date.
8) Contributors become eligible at age 65 or in the year of death plus two. whichever comes first.
9) Each election will run for approximately two weeks unless expressly altered by the project manager, contributors and players done simultaneously.
10) No one is excluded from being a candidate, regardless of the league they played in, except those elected in either the contributor or player ballots. At that point, they are removed from further consideration. If there are players who returned to the Negro Leagues or Japan after going to the majors, the departure from the majors will be their career end date for purposes of this project.
11) The standard for including a player on one's ballot is that the player must in the voter's opinion be among the very best eligible players (preferably the number voted on, but if a voter wishes to support someone they feel is 15th in a 12 person ballot instead of one of the top 12, it's too close for anyone to reasonably object. On the other hand, supporting the 25th best eligible candidate on a 12 person ballot is probably beyond the pale). I reserve the power to invalidate ballots which I do not feel are a reasonably knowledgeable, good faith effort to rank the players. One issue I am quite concerned about is that I do not want to see what clearly appear to be attempts to manipulate the ballot so as to elect a candidate. In isolation, I probably could live with this, but if it became a widely used tactic, the project would devolve into something I have no desire to be associated with. Moreover, I think that this position asks everyone else to cast legitimate votes so that you can manipulate the system to favor your pet candidates. I cannot accept that, as it strikes me as unfair to other voters. For example, you can't expect to favor even a legitimate HOF candidate like Bill Dahlen over Babe Ruth to get Dahlen elected without being asked to provide a reasonable justification for ranking Dahlen over Ruth. If you can provide a reasonable justification in that scenario, the ballot will stand. If not, you will be asked to make a change. Certainly, a reasonable justification does not indicate in essence simply that you want Dahlen elected. Furthermore, if I invalidate multiple ballots by the same individual as failing to meet this rule, that individual will forever lose the right to have his/her ballots counted. Voters are encouraged to consider character, sportsmanship, and compliance with the rules and spirit of baseball in their rankings of players.
12) I will post lists of eligible players and contributors before each election. If you have a question about the eligibility of a candidate, please ask. I will provide a list of future eligibility dates as well.
13) My eligibility lists come from all persons in the BBF HOF, BBTF Hall of Merit, and Cooperstown, plus all persons getting a vote in a BBF HOF election in the past year and a half or in a BBWAA election. This is a relatively comprehensive list, and thus I must request that if you want another candidate included, you provide some justification for why said candidate is worthy of getting a vote in this project. The main area I think this might come into play is if a voter supports a person who was eligible for the final selections from the recent pre WWII or Negro League committees but not on my master list. That fact alone would serve as ample justification for putting said candidate on the list. We may learn more about Cuban ball or what have you and thus include others after a case is made for them, however. The contributor list is undoubtedly not as comprehensive, and this fact will be taken into consideration.
14) Other than the sportsmanship and character issues, players are to be evaluated solely upon their play. I would prefer that if a player is qualified by his play standing alone that he be elected on that basis. However, a candidate may only be elected either as a contributor or a player, but not both. Contributors are the area where the entire body of work during his career in the sport, including his play, managing, scouting, executive, writing, broadcasting or other work in the sport is relevant. Contributors are to be ranked based on who the voter thinks is most worthy of induction into the Contributor group in this project.
15) Any ballot with two (2) or more spots unfilled with eligible candidates is invalid. In the event of the listing of ineligible names, I will try to notify the voter so that he/she can correct the ballot before the end of the voting period. If the change is made timely, it will count. If not, and there are two or more invalid names, the ballot will not be considered valid. If there is only one, the ineligible name will be stricken and all names after it on the affected ballot will be moved up one spot.
16) Any players listed beyond the 12th place for any ballot but the first (in which case it is 20th place) will be ignored. If more than one person is listed as tied for the last available place and the ballot is oversize, all names will be dropped, which may lead to the invalidation of the ballot.
17) Ties are not permitted in ballot listings. I reserve the right to invalidate ballots for use of ties in the rankings, be it within a single ballot or over the course of several ballots. If the voter does not correct such a listing voluntarily, except in the case of an oversize ballot tie for the last eligible place, if do not invalidate the ballot, I will choose the placement of the two "tied" candidates, generally preferring the candidate preferred by the other voters.
18) For any ties between candidates straddling the in/out line of selections, the first thing considered is the ranking of the candidates by the ballots cast. If there are more than two candidates tied, use a 3-2-1 or whatever is appropriate system. Once one person separates from the tied group, restart with the remaining candidates until there are only as many candidates as the rules call for being elected. If they remain tied after this process, the candidate with the most votes received wins. If it is still tied after that, those with the most #1 votes as the next step, then the most #2 votes and so on to see if that breaks the tie. If not, we will induct all candidates who remain tied at that point.
19) One thing we're going to have to be aware of is the timeline in the case of at least a few contributors. Two which jump out at me are Buck O'Neill, 1976, and Branch Rickey, 1946. I intend to eventually vote for both men, but in 1946, Jackie Robinson was still in Montreal. Really, Branch should wait until at least 1947 after Jackie's success in the majors to get credit for that move. If you think Rickey belongs in the top 5 in 1946 without his role in breaking the color line, that's fine--but he shouldn't get credit for that important success until it actually happened. Buck O'Neill did some important things up until 1976, but after that he was in Ken Burns' Baseball and he was instrumental in the establishment of the Negro Leagues Hall of Fame (both occurred in or around 1994). If you think he belongs based on accomplishments before those two things, that's perfectly acceptable, but please don't credit him with them before they actually happened.
20) I reserve the right to hold a Negro League special election in 2000 if we don't have a sufficient number in that category by then. These elections probably will be limited to voters I feel are appropriately versed on the group of players to be considered. I do wish to only use this as a last resort, however, and only to ensure that this group received what I regard as at least adequate bare minimum representation. I do not plan on sharing with you what I consider to meet those bare minimum standards, but I think that the number I am thinking of are well below the number of candidates that well informed observers believe are well qualified candidates from that group.
21) I will maintain a thread of the project's history and rules which will provide a listing of all elected candidates.
22) Feel free to ask questions by either sending jalbright a PM, or by posting a question in voting thread
Seen on a bumper sticker: If only closed minds came with closed mouths.
Some minds are like concrete--thoroughly mixed up and permanently set.
Researcher/advocate/mod
The players who become eligible in 1951 are:
On the contributor side, Bill McKechnie joins the list of eligibles.Code:Bridges , Tommy Cepeda , Perucho Cronin , Joe Derringer , Paul Gelbert , Charlie Harris , Vic Kuhel , Joe Suhr , Gus Waner , Lloyd
Seen on a bumper sticker: If only closed minds came with closed mouths.
Some minds are like concrete--thoroughly mixed up and permanently set.
Researcher/advocate/mod
The 1950 player candidates who were not elected had these results in the that election:
The 1950 contributor candidates who were not elected had these results in the that election:Code:Player……………… votes points Sisler , George 12 86 Magee , Sherry 12 76 Collins , Jimmy 10 73 Radbourn , C 9 55 Wheat , Zack 9 55 Jackson , Joe 5 53 Lyons , Ted 8 50 Keeler , Willie 6 37 Start , Joe 5 35 Waddell , Rube 7 31 Bell, CP 6 30 Bennett , C 4 29 Ruffing , Red 4 29 Traynor , Pie 6 26 Groh , Heinie 4 25 Johnson , HR 3 25 Coveleski , S 4 24 Foster, Willie 6 23 Sutton , Ezra 3 21 Stovey , Harry 3 20 McPhee , Bid 4 17 Grant , Frank 3 15 Klein, Chuck 2 14 Mackey, Biz 2 14 Caruthers , B 2 13 Maranville , R 2 13 Terry , Bill 3 13 Flick , Elmer 4 12 McGinnity , Joe 3 12 Thompson , S 1 12 Joss , Addie 1 11 Pearce , Dickey 2 11 Carey , Max 1 9 Bresnahan , R 2 8 Chance , Frank 1 8 Hill , Pete…….. 2 7 Gore , George 1 6 Rixey , Eppa 1 6 Tinker, Joe 1 5 Berger , Wally 1 4 Evers , Johnny 1 4 Faber , Red 2 4 Galvin , Pud 1 4 Browning , Pete 1 3 Duffy , Hugh 1 2 Jennings , H 1 2 Johnson , Bob 1 1
I strongly suggest that you pay attention to this list, as the leaders of the holdovers are likely to join any strong newcomer candidates as the leaders for winning induction.Code:contributor votes points Commiskey , C 10 30 Cartwright , A 6 29 Landis , K 8 28 Hanlon , Ned 8 21 Posey, Cum 6 16 Spink, Albert 5 16 Taylor , C. I. 2 8 Pearce, Dickey 2 6 Shoriki, M 2 6 Caylor , O. P. 1 5 Selee , Frank 3 5 Dunn , Jack 1 4 Wilkinson, JL 2 4 Doubleday , A 1 3 Bolden, Ed 1 2 Chance , Frank 1 2 Huggins , M 2 2 Conlan , C 1 1 Connolly , Tom 1 1 Griffith , C 1 1
Seen on a bumper sticker: If only closed minds came with closed mouths.
Some minds are like concrete--thoroughly mixed up and permanently set.
Researcher/advocate/mod
Members of the Best of Baseball Hall
Players
ContributorsCode:Pete Alexander Cap Anson Frank Baker Ross Barnes Dan Brouthers Mordecai Brown Jesse Burkett Oscar Charleston Fred Clarke John Clarkson Ty Cobb Mickey Cochrane Eddie Collins Roger Connor Sam Crawford Bill Dahlen George Davis Ed Delahanty Martin Dihigo Buck Ewing Frankie Frisch Lou Gehrig Charlie Gehringer Josh Gibson Goose Goslin Lefty Grove Billy Hamilton Gabby Hartnett Harry Heilmann Paul Hines Rogers Hornsby Carl Hubbell Walter Johnson Tim Keefe King Kelly Nap LaJoie Pop Lloyd Christy Mathewson Kid Nichols Jim O'Rourke Eddie Plank Bullet Joe Rogan Amos Rusie Babe Ruth Louis Santop Al Simmons Tris Speaker Turkey Stearnes Mule Suttles Cristobal Torriente Dazzy Vance Honus Wagner Ed Walsh Paul Waner John M. Ward Deacon White Smoky Joe Williams Jud Wilson George Wright Cy Young
Code:Doc Adams Ed Barrow Henry Chadwick Jim Creighton Rube Foster William Hulbert Ban Johnson Bill Klem Connie Mack John McGraw A. J. Reach Francis Richter Branch Rickey Al Spalding Harry Wright
Seen on a bumper sticker: If only closed minds came with closed mouths.
Some minds are like concrete--thoroughly mixed up and permanently set.
Researcher/advocate/mod
The complete list of eligible players:
The complete list of eligible contributors:Code:Adams , Babe Adams , Sparky Altrock , Nick Archer , Jimmy Arlett , Buzz Austin , Jimmy Averill , Earl Bancroft , Dave Barry , Jack Battin , Joe Beaumont , Ginger Beckley , Jake Beckwith , John Bell , Cool Papa Bender , Chief Bennett , Charlie Benton , Larry Berg , Moe Bergen , Marty Berger , Wally Berry , Charlie Bigbee , Carson Bishop , Max Blades , Ray Blue , Lu Bluege , Ossie Bodie , Ping Boley , Joe Bond , Tommy Bottomley , Jim Bradley , Bill Breitenstein , Ted Bresnahan , Roger Bridges , Tommy Browning , Pete Burns , George J. Bush , Joe Bush , Donie Bush , Guy Cadore , Leon Camnitz , Howie Carey , Max Carrigan , Bill Caruthers , Bob Cepeda , Perucho Chance , Frank Chapman , Ray Chase , Hal Chesbro , Jack Childs , Cupid Cicotte , Eddie Cissell , Bill Clark , Watty Coakley , Andy Collins , Jimmy Collins , Shano Combs , Earle Conroy , Wid Coombs , Jack Cooper , Andy Cooper , Wilbur Coveleski , Stan Crandall , Doc Cravath , Gavvy Creighton , Jim Criger , Lou Critz , Hughie Cronin , Joe Cross , Lave Crowder , Al Cruise , Walt Cummings , Candy Cuyler , Kiki Daubert , Jake Davis , Curt Davis , Harry Davis , Spud Derringer , Paul Dinneen , Bill Doak , Bill Donlin , Mike Donovan , Bill Dooin , Red Doyle , Jack Doyle , Larry Duffy , Hugh Dugan , Joe Dunlap , Fred Dykes , Jimmy Earnshaw , George Ehmke , Howard Elberfeld , Kid Elliott , Jumbo Ens , Jewel Evers , Johnny Faber , Red Falkenberg , Cy Ferrell , Rick Fitzsimmons , Freddie Fletcher , Art Flick , Elmer Fonseca , Lew Foster , Eddie Foster , Willie Fraser , Chick Galvin , Pud Gelbert , Charlie Glasscock , Jack Gleason , Kid Gonzalez , Mike Gore , George Gowdy , Hank Grant , Eddie Grant , Frank Grantham , George Griffith , Clark Grimes , Burleigh Grimm , Charlie Groh , Heinie Haas , Mule Hafey , Chick Hahn , Noodles Haines , Jesse Hallahan , Bill Hargrave , Bubbles Harris , Bucky Harris , Vic Herman , Babe Herzog , Buck Hill , Pete Hinchman , Bill Hooper , Harry Hoyt , Waite Huggins , Miller Irwin , Charlie Jackman , Will Jackson , Joe Jennings , Hughie Johnson , Bob Johnson , Home Run Johnson , Judy Jones , Charley Jones , Fielder Jones , Sam P. Jordan , Tim Joss , Addie Judge , Joe Kamm , Willie Keeler , Willie Kelley , Joe Kerr , Dickie Killefer , Bill Kilroy , Matt Klein , Chuck Kling , Johnny Knabe , Otto Kremer , Ray Kuhel , Joe Lange , Bill Larkin , Henry Latham , Arlie Lazzeri , Tony Leach , Freddy Leach , Tommy Leever , Sam Lewis , Duffy Lindstrom , Freddie Lobert , Hans Long , Herman Lowe , Bobby Lucas , Red Lundy , Dick Luque , Dolf Lyons , Denny Lyons , Ted Mackey , Biz Magee , Sherry Mancuso , Gus Manush , Heinie Maranville , Rabbit Marberry , Firpo Marquard , Rube Martin , Pepper Mathews , Bobby Mays , Carl McAleer , Jimmy McCarthy , Tommy McCormick , Jim McGinnity , Joe McGowan , Bill McInnis , Stuffy McLean , Larry McManus , Marty McPhee , Bid McVey , Cal Meadows , Lee Mendez , Jose Meusel , Bob Milan , Clyde Miller , Bing Miller , Dots Miller , Hack Monroe , Bill Moore , Dobie Moran , Pat Mostil , Johnny Mullane , Tony Murphy , Danny Murray , Red Myer , Buddy Nehf , Art O'Doul , Lefty Oeschger , Joe O'Farrell , Bob O'Leary , Charlie Oms , Alejandro O'Neill , Steve O'Neill , Tip Orr , Dave Pabor , Charlie Paskert , Dode Pearce , Dickey Peckinpaugh , Roger Peitz , Heinie Pennock , Herb Perdue , Hub Perkins , Cy Phillippe , Deacon Pike , Lip Pipp , Wally Poles , Spotswood Pruett , Hub Quinn , Jack Radbourn , Charlie Raymond , Bugs Redding , Dick Remsen , Jack Rice , Sam Richardson , Hardy Ring , Jimmy Ritchey , Claude Rixey , Eppa Robertson , Dave Rommel , Eddie Root , Charlie Roush , Edd Rucker , Nap Rudolph , Dick Ruel , Muddy Ruffing , Red Ryan , Jimmy Schacht , Al Schaefer , Germany Schalk , Ray Schang , Wally Schreckengost , Ossie Schulte , Frank Scott , Everett Scott , Jack Severeid , Hank Sewell , Joe Sewell , Luke Seymour , Cy Sheckard , Jimmy Sherdel , Bill Shocker , Urban Sisler , George Smith , Earl Smith , Sherry Sparks , Tully Stahl , Jake Start , Joe Steinfeldt , Harry Stephenson , Riggs Stovey , Harry Street , Gabby Suhr , Gus Sukeforth , Clyde Sutton , Ezra Sweeney , Bill Tannehill , Jesse Taylor , Ben Tenney , Fred Terry , Bill Thevenow , Tommy Thomas , Ira Thompson , Sam Tiernan , Mike Tinker , Joe Toney , Fred Traynor , Pie Turner , Terry Uhle , George Van Haltren , George Veach , Bobby Waddell , Rube Walberg , Rube Wallace , Bobby Wambsganss , Bill Waner , Lloyd Warfield , Frank Welch , Mickey West , Sam Wheat , Zack White , Sol White , Will Whitehill , Earl Williams , Cy Williams , Ken Williamson , Ned Willis , Vic Wilson , Hack Wilson , Jimmie Witt , Whitey Wood , Joe Wright , Glenn Yerkes , Steve Youngs , Ross Zachary , Tom Zimmer , Chief
Code:Abe , Iso Bancroft , Frank Bolden, Ed Bulkely , Morgan Carrigan, Bill Cartwright , Alexander Caylor , O. P. Chance , Frank Commiskey , Charlie Conlan , Charles Connolly , Tom Cooper , Andy Cummings , Candy Dinneen , Bill Doubleday , Abner Dreyfuss , Barney Dunn , Jack Elias , Al Munro Evans, Billy Foster , John B. Fullerton , Hugh Gleason , Kid Griffith , Clark Hanlon , Ned Harridge, Willie Hillerich , John Huggins , Miller Jennings , Hughie Krichell, Paul Landis , Kenesaw Lardner , Ring Leavitt, Jr. , Charles W. McCarthy , Tommy McKechnie, Bill Mendez , Jose Mills , A. G. Moran , Pat Mutrie , Jim Navin , Frank Norworth, Jack Osborn , Frank Posey, Cum Reach , A. J. Rice, Grantland Robinson , Wilbert Ruppert , Jacob Selee , Frank Shibe , Ben Shoriki, Matsutaro Spink, Albert Stallings , George Street, Gabby Taylor , C. I. Thayer , Ernest Warfield , Frank White , Sol Wilkinson , J. L. Wilson , Horace
Last edited by jalbright; 07-04-2009 at 11:21 AM.
Seen on a bumper sticker: If only closed minds came with closed mouths.
Some minds are like concrete--thoroughly mixed up and permanently set.
Researcher/advocate/mod
My ballot:
Players
1. Joe Cronin
2. Sherry Magee
3. Zack Wheat
4. Harry Stovey
5. Ted Lyons
6. Cool Papa Bell
7. Red Ruffing
8. Joe McGinnity
9. Rube Waddell
10. Willie Foster
11. Home Run Johnson
12. Burleigh Grimes
Contributors
1. Kennesaw Landis
2. Ned Hanlon
3. Cum Posey
4. Charlie Commiskey
5. Miller Huggins
My contributor ballot is unchanged. I've put Cronin in at my top spot, and Grant Johnson has appeared on my ballot along with the return of Burleigh Grimes.
Seen on a bumper sticker: If only closed minds came with closed mouths.
Some minds are like concrete--thoroughly mixed up and permanently set.
Registered User
Players:
1. Ezra Sutton
2. Joe Start
3. Jimmy Collins
4. Joe Cronin
5. Red Ruffing
6. Charlie Bennett
7. Rabbit Maranville
8. George Sisler
9. Pie Traynor
10. Cool Papa Bell
11. Ted Lyons
12. Zack Wheat
Contributors:
1. Matsutaro Shoriki
2. Cum Posey
3. C. I. Taylor
4. Charley Comiskey
5. Ned Hanlon
Researcher/advocate/mod
I hadn't remembered the fact that when I did the Suburbs of Cooperstown comparisions, I came up with Luke Appling for him, based on his age 30 and beyond performances in batting average in the Negro Leagues and Cuba. Few shortstops have competed for such titles, much less at advanced ages, and the fact Johnson was good enough to do it multiple times even in the shorter blackball seasons helps the Appling comparison. He may well not be Appling, but if he's even halfway between that and the borderline HOFer I had before that realization, he belongs on my ballot now. Some additional information:
Home Run Johnson
First of all, when we talk about Hall of Famers, some of the key things we’re looking for are: 1) long careers, 2) all-stars, 3) MVP and/or Cy Young Award winners, 4) contributors to championship teams, 5) career leaders, and 6) single season leaders in key categories. It doesn’t matter what league you’re talking about, these issues are ones you start with in such a discussion. We probably want to make the accomplishments in leagues outside the majors a little more impressive than it would take in the majors to include guys in the Hall of Fame in order to account for the fact these other leagues were rarely if ever of the same quality as the majors. Nevertheless, these largely objective points of reference provide an excellent starting point. The connection to champion teams is especially important in the Negro Leagues, as the players were often paid a portion of the gate at games (including barnstorming contests), and the best teams drew the most people to games and thus could pay better, setting up a cycle whereby the best players tended to be drawn to the best teams.
Another pre 1920 Negro Leaguer, and therefore one I have to rely solely on the more subjective records to justify. Pages 434-435 of Riley's Biogrpahical Encyclopedia of the Negro Leagues is the source of this biography:
Other facts:In a career that started before the turn of the century, Johnson was a right-handed slugger in the deadball era . . . . [H]e starred with some of the most outstanding clubs of the era, including the 1903 Cuba X-Giiants, the 1905 Philadelphia Giants, and the 1909 Brooklyn Royal Giants before joining . . . Rube Foster's Lincoln Giants in 1913 . . . .[S]hortstop was his best position, [but when teamed with Pop Lloyd] Johnson used his versatility to shift across to the keystone sack. . . .
The star infielder was also a winner in Cuba, captaining the Havana Reds to a winter league championship, and became the first American to win a batting title on the island. During his five years there he averaged .319 . . . .
Johnson was a natural hitter, and his confidence, patient pitch selection and superior batting eye enabled him to hit all kinds of pitching. A smart batter, he was cool under pressure. [From 1910 to 1913 he recorded averages against all oppositon of .397, .374, .413 and .371--and this was in a deadball game]. . . . A line-drive hitter, Johnson placed an emphasis on making contact rather than swinging for the fences and, playing in the deadball era, his power was comparable to that of the Athletics' Frank Baker.
Those averages from 1910 to 1913 documented in the Riley quote came from ages 36 to 39.
Johnson was on the team John Holway names as the best black team of 1896, the Page Fence Giants
He also was on two Cuban Winter League champs (captaining the 1908-09 team).
He had a 21 year Negro League career as a middle infielder and played professionally until he was 58
Holway didn't start his all-star teams until Johnson was 36, but he got one at age 39 (1913), when he won a batting title among Eastern Negro League teams
He led the 1905 champion Philadelphia Giants in batting average.
He led the 1908-1909 Cuban champs in games played, hits, doubles and average, finishing only two points behind the batting average champ of the league.
He led the 1911-1912 Cuban champs in hits and had a .410 average for them
He played in Cuba at ages 33-38 and led in hits twice and finished second in batting average twice, hitting .319 overall while
playing middle infield spots, twice for champion clubs.
The Baseball Think Factory guys inducted him into their "Hall of Merit".
In 1910, at age 36, he faced the pitchers from the World Series champion Philadelphia A's in Cuba and went 11 for 24 (.458).
In summary, he had a long career as a middle infielder for many championship clubs, even late in his career. Despite the sparse documentation for much of his career, it can be shown he performed quite well for a long time. I think there's enough to support his case for the HOF and the BBF HOF.
Seen on a bumper sticker: If only closed minds came with closed mouths.
Some minds are like concrete--thoroughly mixed up and permanently set.
Researcher/advocate/mod
Sherry Magee ELECTED BBF HOF
He's in the Baseball Think Factory "Hall of Merit". Here's a few reasons why:
354 career win shares, 13th among LF listed in latest BJHA and 84th best all time among all players per the Win Share book;
His best five consecutive win shares given in BJHA is also 13th among LF in that book;
Discounting Elmer E. Smith's pitching, his best three seasons are 5th best among LF in the BJHA
From Baseball-reference.com:
4 time RBI champ, second once and fourth two other times;
6 times in top 5 in steals;
twice led league in runs created and in top five four other times;
35 Black Ink points, 42nd all-time among hitters; and
210 Gray Ink points, 33rd all-time among hitters.
STATS did its own evaluation of All-Stars of the deadball era, and Magee is third amond all OF (behind only Cobb and Speaker, though he had the advantage of not competing against either of those guys for a slot) with eight such selections, including the 1910 NL MVP
Seen on a bumper sticker: If only closed minds came with closed mouths.
Some minds are like concrete--thoroughly mixed up and permanently set.
Registered User
Here is the preface to my ballot posted late in 1950. After years without any pitcher in the middle or bottom of my ballot, only the elite at the top, I had slipped Charley Radbourn into the middle in 1949.
I have not settled on ranking Vance and Lyons so high, for I am comfortable with only parts of my reevaluation.Originally Posted by Paul Wendt
At long last I selected a personal "Top X", namely my Top 112 from the Hall of Merit (hence no one who has played in the majors since 2003). Dihigo and Wilson are in there, but no one else who is on the board here.
There are 28 pitchers in my 112, precisely 25%. Because 25% seems to me a low share of pitchers in the longer term, I judged that I should move pitchers up a little, in the ranks that now compose most of our ballot.
So far, so good.
Meanwhile I wonder whether I am overrating players from the 1920s and 1930s. The Negro Leagues and the white majors were running side by side. Should we recognize more players from that time as the Best in Baseball? (yes) How many more? As a group we have already gone a long way toward recognizing players at double the rate, and my own 1950 elevation of Vance and Lyons fits that trend. I don't really agree with it yet.
The next article gives the distribution of members by debut decade with some breakdowns.
Last edited by Paul Wendt; 07-04-2009 at 01:06 PM.
Registered User
This table now covers 64 players, anticipating the elections of Collins, Magee, Sisler, and Cronin. Those four debuted in the 1890s to 1920s, one each decade.
UPDATE -07-26: now covering the 63 members after 1951 (not Magee)
Blue marks the 1890s and 1900s debuts, merely as a hopeful aid to the reader.Code:The Best of Baseball over time -- debut decades 1860s 70s 80s 90s 00s 10s 1920s decade of debut in high-level competition 3 5 8 10 11 9 17 ; all (63, all members after the 1951 election) 0 0 0 0 2 4 5 ; NeL (11, Negro Leagues and prior blackball) 3 5 8 10 9 5 12 ; MLB (52, major leagues and prior pro clubs) by fielding position, grouped 0 0 3 2 6 2 4 ; pitcher (17) 3 1 1 5 3 2 7 ; c-3-s-2 (22) 0 4 4 3 2 5 6 ; L-C-R-1 (24) 1860s 70s 80s 90s 00s 10s 1920s
Last edited by Paul Wendt; 07-26-2009 at 11:32 AM. Reason: reconcile with 1951 election, 63 members
Supreme Dictator For Life
1) Joe Cronin
2) Max Carey
3) Sherry Magee
4) Zack Wheat
5) Jimmy Collins
6) Rube Waddell
7) Cool Papa Bell
8) Ted Lyons
9) Harry Stovey
10) Willie Foster
11) Red Ruffing
12) Stan Coveleski
1) Cartwright
2) Hanlon
3) Landis
4) Posey
5) Comiskey
Registered User
JL Wilkinson picked up another supporter and Frank Selee enjoys a few of them so I am sticking with the former and adding the latter to my ballot. Don't take the ranking or the sequence of appearance too seriously.
Contributors
1 Comiskey
2 Posey
3 Hanlon
4 Wilkinson
5 Selee
Offhand, I expect to vote for Bill McKechnie someday, but he is not yet on the doorstep with Clark Griffith, CI Taylor, M Shoriki, and umpire Tom Connolly.
The same goes for Spink, Caylor, Jack Dunn and Ed Bolden --not yet on the doorstep. How long will the project and I continue? How will the pace of selection, one annually, match the arrival of stronger candidates? I don't plan to look ahead much, but to live it.
Journalists Al Spink and OP Caylor were founding fathers of the St Louis Cardinals and Cincinnati Reds respectively, and among the founders and officers of the American Association. At the same time, Spink was a poor businessman; The Sporting News would have floundered without brother Charles. OP Caylor's National Daily Base Ball Gazette issued only a few numbers in 1887. I don't yet know whether I will vote for either one of them here.
History Mod
1) Joe Cronin
2) Jimmy Collins
3) Charlie Bennett
4) Charlie Radbourne
5) Rube Waddell
6) Sherry Magee
7) Ted Lyons
8) Zack Wheat
9) Willie Foster
10) George Sisler
11) Home Run Johnson
12) Rabbit Maranville
1) Alexander Cartwright
2) Dickey Pearce
3) Commissioner Landis
4) Charlie Commiskey
5) Ned Hanlon
Researcher/advocate/mod
We'll go through 1985 with one contributor "annually", then one every three elections. We'll have over 58 once we're done, which means we're barely over a quarter of the way through that group.
Seen on a bumper sticker: If only closed minds came with closed mouths.
Some minds are like concrete--thoroughly mixed up and permanently set.
Registered User
1. Joe Cronin
2. Ted Lyons
3. Elmer Flick
4. Willie Foster
5. Home Run Johnson
6. Red Ruffing
7. Pete Hill
8. Heinie Groh
9. Hughie Jennings
10. Willie Keeler
11. Jimmy Collins
12. George Gore
Registered User
Players
1. Sam Thompson
2. Chuck Klein
3. Joe Jackson
4. George Sisler
5. Harry Stovey
6. Willie Keeler
7. Bill Terry
8. Charley Radbourn
9. Pete Browning
10. Hugh Duffy
11. Cool Papa Bell
12. Jim McCormick
Contributors
1. Kenesaw Landis
2. Alexander Cartwright
3. Abner Doubleday
4. Charles Commiskey
5. Charles Conlon
1. George Sisler
2. Joe Cronin
3. Jimmy Collins
4. Hoss Radbourne
5. Pie Traynor
6. Bob Caruthers
7. Willie Keeler
8. Stan Coveleski
9. Bill Terry
10. Sherry Magee
11. Cool Papa Bell
12. Rube Waddell
1. Albert Spink
2. Landis
3. Hanlon
4. Selee
5. Chance
I read a comment last year about it being premature on Shoriki so he's off for now.
Last edited by PVNICK; 07-06-2009 at 11:13 AM. Reason: barrow was already elected so put in Chance
OSHA-certified Moderator
1. George Sisler
2. Joe Cronin
3. Willie Keeler
4. Cool Papa Bell
5. Charles Radbourne
6. Jimmy Collins
7. Harry Stovey
8. Sherry Magee
9. Zack Wheat
10. Max Carey
11. Ted Lyons
12. Stan Coveleski
Contributors
1. Alexander Cartwright
2. Ned Hanlon
3. Charles Comiskey
4. Frank Chance
5. Kenesaw Landis
Tom Tresh George Kell Mark Fidrych Bob Feller
Ernie Harwell Soupy Sales Alex Chilton Sparky Anderson
Joe Nuxhall Gary Carter MCA Emanuel Steward
Sonny Elliot Dave Brubeck Earl Weaver Stan Musial
Jonathan Winters Neil Armstrong Roger Ebert Anthony Zahler
Ray Manzarek
Registered User
01. Joe Cronin
02. Sherry Magee
03. Joe Jackson
04. Heinie Groh
05. Cool Papa Bell
06. Zack Wheat
07. Rube Waddell
08. Wally Berger
09. George Sisler
10. Jimmy Collins
11. Willie Foster
12. Charley Radbourn
01. Alexander Cartwright
02. Kenesaw Landis
03. Ned Hanlon
04. Cum Posey
05. Miller Huggins
2004 & 2007
Players:
1. Joe Cronin
2. Jimmy Collins
3. George Sisler
4. Zack Wheat
5. Willie Foster
6. Cool Papa Bell
7. Old Hoss Radbourn
8. Biz Mackey
9. Frank Grant
10. Sherry Magee
11. Rube Waddell
12. Home Run Johnson
Contributors:
1. C. I. Taylor
2. Al Spink
3. Cum Posey
4. Charles Comiskey
5. JL Wilkinson
Team Veteran
Players:
1. Cool Papa Bell
2. Home Run Johnson
3. Perucho Cepeda
4. Pete Hill
5. Andy Cooper
6. Willie Foster
7. Bill Jackman
8. Biz Mackey
9. Jose Mendez
10. Spotswood Poles
11. Alejandro Oms
12. Dick Redding
Contributers:
1. Cum Posey
2. C.I. Taylor
3. Matsutaro Shoriki
4. Sol While
5. Iso Abe
These are the best of the best and they dont get enough attention!
Researcher/advocate/mod
I'm a supporter of the Negro Leaguers, but I don't think that all these guys are better than all the eligible major leaguers. If you care to justify this ballot on the basis of the talent of the players, I'll consider it--but until or unless I receive such a justification, this ballot seems to me not in keeping with the requirement of an honest ranking and thus not within the rules. If you try and justify the ballot, one thing I will want to hear is an explanation of why you abandoned the major leaguers you had supported over a good number of these guys as recently as last election.
Seen on a bumper sticker: If only closed minds came with closed mouths.
Some minds are like concrete--thoroughly mixed up and permanently set.
Researcher/advocate/mod
Dogdaze' ballot means we have met the quorum in both the player and contributor portions of the voting.
Seen on a bumper sticker: If only closed minds came with closed mouths.
Some minds are like concrete--thoroughly mixed up and permanently set.
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