10th Greatest Hitter: Can Wagner beat Mays?

[Bill Burgess]

Congratulations to the amazing Hammerin' Hank Aaron, for winning our 9th Greatest Hitter of All Time! Hank scored 64 points with 5 1st place votes from our 19 voters. The phenomenal Say Hey Kid, Willie Mays scored 52 points with 2 1st place votes. Interestingly, Honus Wagner took 3rd place with 50 points and 5 1st place votes.

This round for our 10th Greatest hitter of All Time is now open! Let the Games Begin! Round 10 will end when we receive 20 ballots.

1. Babe Ruth
2. Ted Williams
3. Ty Cobb
4. Lou Gehrig
5. Rogers Hornsby
6. Mickey Mantle
7. Stan Musial
8. Barry Bonds
9. Hank Aaron
10.

As per our usual, please consider everything. Relative stats, counting totals, peak, longevity, special skills, home/away splits, etc. If anyone wants to show the relative stats, home/away breakdowns for the leading candidates, that would be great. Can't hurt, always helps.

We are now ONLY voting for the 9th Greatest Hitter of All. So, please submit your list of your next Top 5 Hitters. As the winner of Round 9, Hank Aaron is now eliminated from our further consideration.

Round 1.---23 voters

-------------------1st pl.-----------2nd------3rd------4th----5th--Total 
1. Babe Ruth------70 pts.(14)------28(7)----3(1)------0-----1(1)----101 
2. Ted Williams-----30(6)------------48(12)---9(3)-----2(1)---1(1)----90
3. Ty Cobb---------15(3)-------------8(2)--30(10)-----6(3)-----0-----59
4. Lou Gehrig--------0----------------4(1)---15(5)----10(5)---5(5)----34
5. Rogers Hornsby---0-----------------0-------6(2)----12(6)---6(6)---24
6. Stan Musial-------0-----------------4(1)-----0-------2(1)---2(2)----8
7. Hank Aaron-------0-----------------0--------3(1)----2(1)---2(2)----7
7. Mickey Mantle----0-----------------0---------0------6(3)---1(1)----7
9. Barry Bonds------0-----------------0---------3(1)----0------2(2)---5
10. Frank Thomas---0-----------------0---------0-------4(2)----0-----4
11. Tony Gwynn----0-----------------0---------0--------2(1)----0-----2
12. Alex Rodriguez--0-----------------0---------0---------0------1(1)--1
13. Joe DiMaggio---0-----------------0---------0---------0------1(1)--1
14. Jimmy Foxx-----0-----------------0---------0---------0------1(1)--1
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Round 2.---21 voters

1. Ted Williams - 101(17)
2. Ty Cobb - 73(4)
3. Lou Gehrig - 37
4. Rogers Hornsby - 35
5. Hank Aaron - 19
6. Stan Musial - 13
7. Willie Mays - 8
8. Josh Gibson - 6
9. Mickey Mantle - 5
10. Barry Bonds - 4
11. Tony Gwynn - 2
12. Honus Wagner - 1
12. Jimmy Foxx - 1
12. Alexander Rodriguez - 1

Here is the breakdown.

---------------------1st place------2nd--------3rd----------4th---------5th
1. Ted Williams--------85(17)-------16(4)-------0------------0-----------0
2. Ty Cobb-----------20(4)--------44(11)------6(2)--------2(1)---------1(1)
3. Lou Gehrig----------0------------4(1)-------6(2)--------6(3)---------4(4)
4. Rogers Hornsby-----0------------8(2)-------18(6)-------6(3)---------3(3)
5. Hank Aaron---------0------------4(1)-------6(2)--------6(3)---------4(4)
6. Stan Musial---------0------------4(1)-------3(1)--------4(2)---------2(2)
7. Willie Mays---------0--------------0----------0---------6(3)---------2(2)
8. Josh Gibson--------0--------------0---------6(2)---------0-----------0
9. Mickey Mantle------0--------------0---------3(1)--------0-----------2(2)
10. Barry Bonds-------0-------------4(1)--------0----------0------------0
11. Honus Wagner-----0--------------0---------0-----------0-----------1(1)
12. Jimmy Foxx--------0--------------0---------0-----------0-----------1(1)
13. Tony Gwynn-------0--------------0---------0-----------0-----------1(1)
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Round 3.---20 voters

1. Ty Cobb - 85(12)
2. Lou Gehrig - 54(3)
3. Rogers Hornsby - 45(1)
4. Hank Aaron - 28(2)
5. Mickey Mantle - 18
6. Stan Musial - 15
7. Barry Bonds - 13(2)
8. Willie Mays - 11
9. Josh Gibson - 8
10. Honus Wagner - 7
10. Frank Thomas - 7
12. Jimmy Foxx - 4
13. Alexander Rodriguez - 1

Here's the fine breakdown.

---------------------1st-----2nd---3rd----4th----5th
1. Ty Cobb--------60(12)---12(3)--12(4)---0-----1(1)
2. Lou Gehrig-------5(3)-----8(2)---21(7)--8(4)---2(2)
3. Rogers Hornsby--5(1)----24(6)----9(3)--4(2)---3(3)
4. Hank Aaron-----10(2)------0------6(2)-10(5)---2(2)
5. Mickey Mantle----0-------8(2)----0------8(3)---2(2)
6. Stan Musial-------0-------4(1)---3(1)----2(1)---6(6)
7. Barry Bonds------10(2)----0-----3(1)-----0------0
8. Willie Mays--------0-------8(2)--3(1)-----0------0
9. Josh Gibson-------0-------4(1)----0-----4(2)----0
10. Honus Wagner---0-------4(1)----0-----2(1)----1(1) 
10. Frank Thomas---0-------4(1)----3(1)----0------0
12. Jimmy Foxx-----0---------0-------0-----2(1)---2(2)
13. Alexander Rodriguez-0----0--------0------0-----1(1)
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Round 4.  ---21 voters.

1. Lou Gehrig - 85(9)
2. Rogers Hornsby - 82(9)
3. Mickey Mantle - 32(1)
4. Hank Aaron - 27(1)
5. Stan Musial - 17
6. Honus Wagner - 16
7. Josh Gibson - 15
8. Willie Mays - 11
9. Barry Bonds - 8
10. Jimmy Foxx - 6
11. Frank Thomas - 5
12. Alexander Rodriguez - 3
13. Chino Smith - 2
14. Joe DiMaggio - 1
14. Rod Carew - 1
14. Tris Speaker - 1

Fine Breakdown:

---------------------------1st---2nd----3rd----4th---5th
1. Lou Gehrig-------------45(9)--24(6)--12(4)--4(2)---0
2. Rogers Hornsby--------45(9)--24(6)---9(3)---4(2)---0
3. Mickey Mantle----------5(1)---4(1)--15(5)---8(4)---0
4. Hank Aaron-------------5(1)---4(1)---9(3)---4(2)--5(5)
5. Stan Musial--------------0-----4(1)---6(2)---6(3)--1(1)
6. Honus Wagner-----------0-----8(2)---3(1)----0----5(5) 
6. Josh Gibson-------------0-----4(1)---9(3)----2(1)---0 
8. Willie Mays--------------0-----4(1)----0------6(3)--1(1)
9. Barry Bonds-------------0-----4(1)----0------2(1)--2(2) 
10. Frank Thomas----------0-----4(1)----0------0-----1(1) 
11. Jimmy Foxx------------0-------0------0-----4(2)--2(2) 
12. Alexander Rodriguez----0-------0------0-----2(1)--1(1) 
13. Chino Smith------------0-------0------0-----2(1)---0
14. Joe DiMaggio-----------0-------0------0------0----1(1)
14. Rod Carew-------------0-------0------0------0----1(1)
14. Tris Speaker
-----------------------------------------------------------------------
Round 5.---21 voters.---last round

1. Rogers Hornsby - 92(17)
2. Mickey Mantle - 38(1)
3. Barry Bonds - 32(1)
4. Honus Wagner - 30
5. Stan Musial - 28
6. Hank Aaron - 24(1)
7. Willie Mays - 17
8. Josh Gibson - 11
9. Joe DiMaggio - 6
10. Dan Brouthers - 5(1)
11. Jimmy Foxx - 4
12. Frank Thomas - 3
12. Ichiro Suzuki - 3
14. Alexander Rodriguez - 2
14. Chino Smith - 2
16. Joe Jackson - 1
16. Buck Leonard - 1
16. Tris Speaker - 1

The fine breakdown.
---------------------1st------2nd----3rd-----4th-----5th---Totals
1. Rogers Hornsby----85(17)---4(1)--3(1)------0------0------92
2. Mickey Mantle-------5(1)--16(4)---12(4)---2(1)---3(3)----38
3. Barry Bonds----------5(1)---8(2)----3(1)--14(7)---2(2)----32
4. Honus Wagner---------0----24(6)---6(2)----0------0------30
5. Stan Musial------------0-----4(1)--12(4)---2(1)---3(2)----28
6. Hank Aaron-----------5(1)----4(1---9(3)---4(2)---2(1)----24
7. Willie Mays-------------0-----4(1)---6(2)---4(2)---3(3)----17
8. Josh Gibson------------0-----8(2)---3(1)-----0-----0------11
9. Joe DiMaggio-----------0-------0----3(3)---2(1)---1(1)-----6
10. Dan Brouthers--------5(1)-----0-----0------0------0------5
11. Jimmy Foxx-----------0-------0------0-----0------4(4)----4
12. Frank Thomas--------0--------0----3(1)----0------0-------3
12. Ichiro Suzuki---------0--------0----3(1)----0------0-------3
14. Alexander Rodriquez--0--------0-----0------2(1)---0-------2
14. Chino Smith----------0--------0-----0------2(1)---0-------2
16. Joe Jackson----------0--------0-----0------0------1(1)----1
16. Buck Leonard----------0--------0-----0------0-----1(1)----1
16. Tris Speaker-----------0--------0-----0------0-----1(1)----1

Round 6

Fname	Lname		First	Second	Third	Fourth	Fifth	Total
Mickey	Mantle		6	5	3	1	1	62
Stan	Musial		4	4	5	0	4	55
Barry	Bonds		5	2	3	3	2	50
Honus	Wagner		5	1	2	1	4	41
Willie	Mays		0	3	3	5	0	31
Hank	Aaron		0	2	1	5	2	23
Tris	Speaker		0	1	1	1	2	11
Josh	Gibson		0	1	1	1	0	9
Joe	DiMaggio	0	0	1	1	0	5
Alex	Rodriguez	0	1	0	0	1	5
Frank	Thomas		0	0	0	0	4	4

Round 7

Fname	Lname		First	Second	Third	Fourth	Fifth	Total
Stan	Musial		4	9	3	1	2	69
Barry	Bonds		9	2	3	2	2	68
Hank	Aaron		0	3	5	4	3	38
Honus	Wagner		4	1	0	4	2	34
Willie	Mays		0	1	3	3	3	22
Jimmie	Foxx		1	1	3	0	0	18
Josh	Gibson		1	1	1	1	1	15
Tris	Speaker		0	1	2	0	4	14
Albert	Pujols		1	0	0	1	1	8
Joe	DiMaggio	0	1	0	1	1	7
Dan	Brouthers	0	0	1	1	0	5
Frank	Thomas		0	0	0	1	1	3
Roger	Connor		0	0	0	1	0	2
Alex	Rodriguez	0	0	0	0	0	0

Round 8.

Fname	Lname		First	Second	Third	Fourth	Fifth	Total
Barry	Bonds		5	4	3	2	0	54
Hank	Aaron		3	1	8	1	4	49
Honus	Wagner		5	1	3	2	2	44
Willie	Mays		1	4	3	5	1	41
Jimmie	Foxx		2	4	1	1	6	37
Josh	Gibson		3	1	0	0	1	20
Tris	Speaker		0	1	1	2	2	13
Joe	DiMaggio	0	1	0	2	0	8
Frank	Thomas		0	1	0	2	0	8
Hank	Greenberg	0	1	1	0	0	7
Tony	Gwynn		1	0	0	0	0	5
Wade	Boggs		0	1	0	0	0	4
Joe	Jackson		0	0	0	1	1	3
Dan	Brouthers	0	0	0	1	0	2
Nap	Lajoie		0	0	0	1	0	2
Mel	Ott		0	0	0	0	1	1
Manny	Ramirez		0	0	0	0	1	1
Al	Simmons		0	0	0	0	1	1

Round 9.

Fname	Lname		First	Second	Third	Fourth	Fifth	Total
Hank	Aaron		5	5	5	1	2	64
Willie	Mays		2	5	6	2	0	52
Honus	Wagner		5	3	2	2	3	50
Jimmie	Foxx		1	3	1	5	5	35
Tris	Speaker		1	1	1	1	4	18
Frank	Thomas		1	1	1	2	0	16
Josh	Gibson		2	0	0	1	0	12
Shoeless Joe	Jackson	1	0	0	1	0	7
Albert	Pujols		1	0	0	0	0	5
Joe	DiMaggio	0	0	1	0	1	4
Hank	Greenberg	0	1		0	0	4
Dan	Brouthers	0	0	1	0	0	3
Mel	Ott		0	0	0	1	1	3
Frank	Robinson	0	0	1	0	0	3
Nap	Lajoie		0	0	0	1	0	2
Manny	Ramirez		0	0	0	1	0	2
Sam	Thompson	0	0	0	1	0	2
Oscar	Charleston	0	0	0	0	1	1
Willie	McCovey		0	0	0	0	1	1
Alex	Rodriguez	0	0	0	0	1	1

[Bill Burgess]

Reference Resources:

Relative SLG. Ave. is the 1st number, and serves as presumption unless I note mitigating factors.

1. Babe Ruth - 172.5 - 13 SLG. titles - 10,504 PA - 207 OPS+ - Rel. ISO - 303. Need I say more? Nuff said.

2. Ted Williams - 154.9 - 9 SLG. titles - 9786 PA - 185 OPS+ - Rel. ISO - 220. Takes 2nd nicely. Missing war yrs.? Offset by Babe's "missing pitching yrs."

3. Ty Cobb - 141.4 - 8 SLG. titles - 12,777 PA- 167 OPS+ - Rel. ISO - 159. Ranks above others with higher SLG. AVE., due to more titles, over a much longer career, higher PA, extended decline phase. Differences in PA with Hornsby equals 7 full seasons of decline.

4. Rogers Hornsby - 147.3. - 9 titles - 9259 PA - 175 OPS+ - Rel. ISO - 203. High SLG. Ave./titles earn high ranking.

5. Lou Gehrig - 154.0 - 2 SLG. titles - 9954 PA - 179 OPS+ - Rel. ISO - 230. Ave. held up well, of course due to lack of decline phase, hence low PA. Only won 2 titles.

6. Barry Bonds - 148.0 - 7 SLG. titles - 12,606 PA - 182 OPS+ - Rel. ISO - 213. I had him ranked 2nd, but his admitted steroid usage drops him IMHO. Had too great an advantage over his peers.

7. Honus Wagner - 132.9 - 6 SLG. Titles - 11,731 PA - 150 OPS+ - Rel. ISO - 167

8. Willie Mays - 139.2 - 5 SLG. titles - 12,480 PA - 156 OPS+ - Rel. ISO - 186.

9. Mickey Mantle - 143.8 - 4 SLG. titles - 9895 PA - 172 OPS+ - Rel. ISO - 198. Too few titles over relatively weak sluggers.

10. Hank Aaron - 140.6 - 4 SLG. titles - 13,919 PA - 155 OPS+ - Rel. ISO - 187. Too few titles over long career.

11. Jimmy Foxx - 143.7 - 5 SLG. titles - 9,599 PA - 163 OPS+ - Rel. ISO - 214. Too few PA relative to Aaron/Mays

12. Joe Jackson - 1.45.2 - 1 SLG. title - 5690 PA - 170 OPS+ - Rel. ISO - 187. Too few PA to rank higher - Placed in top 5 SLG. all his 9 yrs.; 2nd 3 times, once 3rd, 2 4ths, 2 5ths.

13. Stan Musial- 137.1 - 6 SLG. Titles - 12,712 PA - 159 OPS+ - Rel. ISO - 168.

14. Tris Speaker - 134.3 - 1 SLG. Title - 11,988 PA - 158 OPS+ - Rel. ISO - 163.

15. Nap Lajoie - 133.9 - 4 SLG. Titles - 10,460 PA - 150 OPS+ - Rel. ISO - 159

16. Mike Schmidt - 133.6 - 5 SLG. Titles - 10, 062 PA - 147 OPS+ - Rel. ISO - 205.

Sluggers such as Greenberg, McGwire, DiMaggio, Mize and Brouthers all had PA fewer than 7,700. Honorable Mentions to Richie Allen, Frank Thomas.
----------------------------------------------------------------------

My Candidates for Most Impressive Hitting Peak Ever:

1. Barry Bonds - 2001-2004,---------244 OPS+

2. Babe Ruth - 1920-1924,-----------221 OPS+

3. Ted Williams - 1942-1949,--------209 OPS+

4. Rogers Hornsby - 1921-1925,------202 OPS+

5. Ty Cobb - 1909-1913,-------------197 OPS+

6. Lou Gehrig - 1927-1934,----------193 OPS+

7. Mickey Mantle - 1956-1962,-------191 OPS+

8. Honus Wagner - 1905-1909,--------187 OPS+

9. Stan Musial - 1943-1948,---------174 OPS+
--------------------------------------------------------------------
Win Shares:
as compiled by Chris (538280)

Wagner 1905-1909: 237
Ruth 1920-1924: 233
Bonds 2000-2004: 227
Williams 1941-1949: 220
Cobb 1909-1913: 207
Mantle 1956-1960: 205
Morgan 1972-1976: 197
Gehrig 1927-1931: 193
Musial 1943-1948: 192 
Hornsby 1921-1925: 188

WARP3-this has a LQ adjustment and it adjusted for the 162 game vs. 154 game schedule in case you don't know

Bonds 2000-2004: 71.7
Ruth 1920-1924: 71.5
Williams: 1941-1948: 69.0
Morgan 1972-1976: 66.3
Hornsby 1921-1925: 63.6
Wagner 1905-1909: 62.8
Musial 1943-1948: 61.3
Mantle 1956-1960: 61.1
Gehrig 1927-1931: 57.3
Cobb 1909-1913: 54.4

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Relative Stats: courtesy of David Kent:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------
Rel Rel Through 2003, over 5,000 PA, indexed and park adjusted.

Pro+  OBA  Slg                                      Rel     Rel
Rank Rank Rank  Player               PA    Pro+     OBA     Slg
----------------------------------------------------------------

  1    2    1   Babe Ruth          10504   207.0   134.5   172.5 
  2    1    2   Ted Williams        9786   189.5   134.6   154.9
  3   11    3   Lou Gehrig          9554   180.4   126.4   154.0
  4    3    4   Barry Bonds        10963   180.0   131.6   148.4
  5    8    5   Rogers Hornsby      9259   174.7   127.4   147.3
  8   16    6   Joe Jackson         5559   168.7   123.9   144.8
 16  102    7   Hank Greenberg      6061   157.3   113.5   143.9
  6    5    8   Mickey Mantle       9895   172.1   128.3   143.8
 11   40    9   Mark McGwire        7657   162.8   119.0   143.8
 13   43   10   Jimmie Foxx         9599   161.6   117.9   143.7
 21  122   11   Joe DiMaggio        7657   155.6   112.7   142.9
 17   78   12   Johnny Mize         7351   157.0   114.9   142.1
  7    4   13   Dan Brouthers       7656   170.9   129.4   141.4
  9   10   14   Ty Cobb            12777   168.4   127.0   141.4
 22   83   15   Hank Aaron         13919   155.2   114.6   140.6
 18   54   16   Dick Allen          7295   156.7   116.8   140.0
 20   53   17   Willie Mays        12480   156.0   116.8   139.2
 25   52   18   Mike Piazza         6007   154.7   117.0   137.7
 14   24   19   Stan Musial        12677   158.2   121.1   137.1
 38  192   20   Willie Stargell     9017   147.1   110.0   137.1
 19   36   21   Manny Ramirez       5910   156.5   119.8   136.7
 26   41   22   Frank Robinson     11726   154.0   118.5   135.5
 12    9   23   Frank Thomas        8167   162.6   127.3   135.3
 10    6   24   Pete Browning       5315   163.2   128.0   135.3
 15   18   25   Tris Speaker       11679   157.4   123.0   134.3
 23   25   26   Mel Ott            11228   155.0   120.9   134.1
 48  215   27   Albert Belle        6669   142.9   108.9   134.0
 33   60   28   Nap Lajoie         10239   150.0   116.1   133.9
 35   86   29   Ralph Kiner         6247   148.0   114.4   133.7
 40  111   30   Mike Schmidt       10046   146.8   113.2   133.6
 41  131   31   Sam Thompson        6497   145.4   111.9   133.5
 29   42   32   Ed Delahanty        8340   151.5   118.1   133.4
 42  159   33   Ken Griffey Jr.     8161   144.0   110.9   133.1
 32   48   34   Honus Wagner       11518   150.4   117.6   132.9
 36   77   35   Willie McCovey      9681   147.7   114.9   132.9
 43  153   36   Alex Rodriguez      5671   143.9   111.1   132.7
 24   21   37   Roger Connor        8834   154.9   122.2   132.6
 46  158   38   Sam Crawford       10353   143.5   110.9   132.5
 93  514   39   Juan Gonzalez       7014   133.3   100.8   132.5
 49  163   40   Frank Howard        7346   142.8   110.7   132.2
 57  226   41   Jeff Heath          5540   140.4   108.6   131.8
 64  272   42   Wally Berger        5636   138.8   107.2   131.6
 39   66   43   Harry Heilmann      8683   147.0   115.7   131.2
 30   35   44   Jim Thome           6420   150.9   119.8   131.0
 27   20   45   Jeff Bagwell        8626   153.4   122.3   131.0
 44  118   46   Hack Wilson         5454   143.7   112.8   130.9
 50  125   47   Harry Stovey        6832   142.8   112.5   130.3
 58  165   48   Babe Herman         6134   140.2   110.6   129.6
 66  205   49   Darryl Strawberry   6325   138.6   109.3   129.3
102  419   50   Sammy Sosa          8462   132.4   103.1   129.3



      Rel  Rel
Pro+  OBA  Slg                                      Rel     Rel
Rank Rank Rank  Player               PA    Pro+     OBA     Slg
----------------------------------------------------------------
  2    1    2   Ted Williams        9786   189.5   134.6   154.9
  1    2    1   Babe Ruth          10504   207.0   134.5   172.5
  4    3    4   Barry Bonds        10963   180.0   131.6   148.4
  7    4   13   Dan Brouthers       7656   170.9   129.4   141.4
  6    5    8   Mickey Mantle       9895   172.1   128.3   143.8
 10    6   24   Pete Browning       5315   163.2   128.0   135.3
 59    7  267   Billy Hamilton      7544   140.0   127.6   112.4
  5    8    5   Rogers Hornsby      9259   174.7   127.4   147.3
 12    9   23   Frank Thomas        8167   162.6   127.3   135.3
  9   10   14   Ty Cobb            12777   168.4   127.0   141.4
  3   11    3   Lou Gehrig          9554   180.4   126.4   154.0
192   12  582   Roy Thomas          6409   123.6   126.3    97.3
 31   13   74   Edgar Martinez      8113   150.7   125.7   125.1
 52   14  156   Eddie Collins      11525   142.4   124.4   118.1
 28   15   53   Jason Giambi        5460   152.7   123.9   128.8
  8   16    6   Joe Jackson         5559   168.7   123.9   144.8
140   17  420   Rickey Henderson   13316   128.6   123.4   105.2
 15   18   25   Tris Speaker       11679   157.4   123.0   134.3
126   19  372   Wade Boggs         10711   130.0   123.0   107.0
 27   20   45   Jeff Bagwell        8626   153.4   122.3   131.0
 24   21   37   Roger Connor        8834   154.9   122.2   132.6
 82   22  246   George Gore         6104   135.0   122.0   113.1
 76   23  208   Gene Tenace         5504   136.3   121.2   115.0
 14   24   19   Stan Musial        12677   158.2   121.1   137.1
 23   25   26   Mel Ott            11228   155.0   120.9   134.1
232   26  531   Mike Hargrove       6649   121.0   120.8   100.2
105   27  285   Joe Morgan         11278   132.1   120.5   111.6
 34   28   54   Elmer Flick         6293   149.2   120.5   128.7
 56   29  118   Cap Anson          11292   140.9   120.4   120.5
 60   30  137   Jesse Burkett       9525   139.5   120.3   119.2
 37   31   60   Gary Sheffield      8026   147.5   120.1   127.4
419   32  705   Eddie Stanky        5332   109.0   120.0    88.9
143   33  351   Topsy Hartsel       5697   127.9   119.9   108.0
120   34  300   Rod Carew          10422   131.0   119.9   111.1
 30   35   44   Jim Thome           6420   150.9   119.8   131.0
 19   36   21   Manny Ramirez       5910   156.5   119.8   136.7
103   37  260   John Olerud         8360   132.3   119.6   112.7
 81   38  194   Arky Vaughan        7605   135.4   119.5   115.9
107   39  254   Ken Singleton       8529   132.1   119.2   112.9
 11   40    9   Mark McGwire        7657   162.8   119.0   143.8
 26   41   22   Frank Robinson     11726   154.0   118.5   135.5
 29   42   32   Ed Delahanty        8340   151.5   118.1   133.4
 13   43   10   Jimmie Foxx         9599   161.6   117.9   143.7
 99   44  209   Tony Gwynn         10187   132.6   117.8   114.8
 47   45   71   Chipper Jones       6064   143.2   117.8   125.4
388   46  649   Richie Ashburn      9624   110.9   117.8    93.1
111   47  226   Jackie Robinson     5698   131.7   117.7   114.0
 32   48   34   Honus Wagner       11518   150.4   117.6   132.9
167   49  345   Roger Bresnahan     5262   126.0   117.5   108.5
118   50  229   Ross Youngs         5214   131.3   117.4   113.9

__________________
Dave Kent

Relative BA, after 2005:

BA+   Player (thru '05) baseball-reference.com
Currently active players are high-lighted in RED.

1. 134.8 Cobb      CF
2. 133.1 JJackson
3. 130.8 Browning
5. 128.1 TWilliams LF
6. 127.8 Dan Brouthers 
7. 127.7 Gwynn     RF
8. 127.4 Lajoie    2B
9. 127.2 Ichiro
10. 127.0 Carew
11. 126.2 Hornsby
12. 125.4 Speaker
13. 125.3 Pujols
14. 124.4 Tip O'Neill
15. 124.4 Keeler
16. 123.9 Musial    1B
17. 123.7 Boggs     3B
18. 123.6 Donlin
19. 123.1 Wagner    SS
20. 122.8 Anson
21. 122.7 Hamilton
22. 122.6 Delahanty
23. 121.8 ECollins
24. 121.6 Burkett
25. 121.0 Puckett 
26. 120.7 Clemente
27. 120.4 Oliva
28. 120.3 SThompson
29. 119.4 Heilmann
30. 119.2 Ruth
31. 118.9 Sisler
32. 118.8 Crawford 
33. 118.5 KKelly
34. 118.1 Connor
35. 117.9 MoAlou
36. 117.8 Piazza   C
37. 117.8 Medwick
38. 117.8 PWaner
39. 117.7 O'Rourke
40. 117.4 Flick
41. 117.3 BTerry
42. 117.2 Gehrig
43. 117.1 JDiMaggio
44. 117.0 Beaumont
45. 116.9 EMartinez
46. 116.9 Mattingly
47. 116.7 Garr
48. 116.4 Mota
49. 116.3 Brett
50. 116.3 DMitchell
51. 116.2 JMcGraw
52. 116.2 LWalker v
53. 116.0 Aaron 
57. 115.6 Rose 
59. 115.4 Al Simmons
60. 115.4 Frank Baker 

66. 115.0 Mantle 
67. 115.0 Johnny Mize
71. 114.9 Wheat 
82. 114.3 Mays 
75. 114.6 FThomas
90. 113.8 Foxx 
92. 113.8 Roush 
99. 113.4 Frank Robinson

[Bill Burgess]

1. Honus Wagner
2. Willie Mays
3. Jimmie Foxx
4. Tris Speaker
5. Nap Lajoie

Coming Soon to a computer screen near you.

Schmidt
DiMaggio
A.Rodriguez

Might I persuade any of you guys to consider voting in our other polls?

36th Greatest Player

15th Greatest Pitcher

Wagner/Mays?

I would consider it a great favor if you did.

[Surf-Bat]

Honus Wagner
Willie Mays
Jimmie Foxx
Napoleon Lajoie
Mel Ott

[brett]

Frank Thomas
Willie Mays
Jimmie Foxx
Honus Wagner
Albert Pujols

Consistency is important, but since its just "best" and not "most valuable" I think Pujols qualifies. I'll give an edge to guys that lasted over guys who didn't, but from what he's done, he looks like he has consistent staying power.

I think Wagner hits at least 400 home runs, and maybe more if he played contemporaneously with Musial. I don't think he walks quite as much.

[STLCards2]

1. Foxx
2. Thomas
3. Mays
4. Wagner
5. Brouthers

[PVNICK]

Wagner
Foxx
Brouthers
Josh Gibson
Mays

[Eastvanmungo]

1. Honus Wagner
2. Willie Mays
3. Joe DiMaggio
4. Jimmie Foxx
5. Josh Gibson

[BigRon]

1. Willie Mays
2. Jimmie Foxx
3. Honus Wagner
4. Tris Speaker
5. Frank Robinson- on the same level as Mays and Aaron as hitter, just didn't compile as many counting stats due to injuries late in career

A lot of great hitters fighting for the next few spots.

[nerfan]

Thomas
Foxx
Mays
Wagner
M. Ramirez

[AstrosFan]

Gibson
Mays
Wagner
Thomas
Foxx

[Bill Burgess]

It's hard to believe that either Mays/Wagner will miss going Top 10 as hitters. I always assumed that Aaron should have come just after them. Silly me.

[BigRon]

It's hard to believe that either Mays/Wagner will miss going Top 10 as hitters. I always assumed that Aaron should have come just after them. Silly me.

These guys are so close that putting one of them one or two spots ahead of another really doesn't mean much.

That said, there's evidence that Mays was at least Aaron's equal as a hitter, if not ever so slightly ahead. Aaron's power numbers may have been depressed slightly by County Stadium and its often inhospitable weather, but Atlanta gave it all back plus some.

Mays spent the second half of his career at Candlestick, one of the worst places in the Majors to play ball.

For the record, Schell places Mays number 10 and Aaron 15 as batters. Wagner is number 12. You may or may not agree with him, but he probably has done more analysis in this area than anyone.

[KCGHOST]

Speaker
Wagner
Mays
Ott
Foxx

[Blackout]

Alex Rodriguez
Josh Gibson
Tris Speaker
Honus Wagner
Pop Lloyd

[mwiggins]

1. Joe Jackson
2. Frank Thomas
3. Jimmy Foxx
4. Albert Pujols
5. Joe DiMaggio

[Domenic]

01. Wagner
02. Speaker
03. Foxx
04. Mays
05. Jackson

[JRB]

since you need some ballots Bill, I'll go ahead and participate in this poll though I've not participated in any of the other 9 polls leading up to this one;

Here's my current opinion on the top 20 hitters

1. Ruth
2. Willliams
3. Hornsby
4. Cobb
5. Gehrig
6. Mantle
7. Jackson
8. Aaron
9. Wagner
10. Bonds
11. Pujols
12. Mays
13. Foxx
14. Musial
15. Ott
16. DiMaggio
17. Robinson
18. Thomas
19. Mize
20. Speaker


Here's my picks for the current poll
1. Jackson
2. Wagner
3. Pujols
4. Mays
5. Foxx

[RyanExpress30]

1 Wagner
2 Mays
3 Foxx
4 DiMaggio
5 Shoeless Joe Jackson

[ItsOnlyGil]

1) T. Speaker
2) J. Foxx
3) J. Jackson
4) H. Greenberg
5) S. Thompson

[CTaka]

We have 16 ballots received so far. Can Honus whip Willie?

Wagner
Thomas
Mays
Speaker
Brouthers

[BigRon]

Bill, I'm amazed that the greatest hitter, greatest pitcher, and greatest player polls are receiving so little action. Perhaps it's because these things have been done before? I've only been on BBF this year so I don't know if this is old hat/boring to a lot of longer term BBFers.

Nonetheless, I think these are 3 of the most interesting and enjoyable threads and would hate to see them die off. Is there any way to go back and look at most/all of the participants in these 3 threads and PM them asking for their continued participation/support?

I know this would take some time/effort, but it really seems a shame that there is not more participation here. I guess pictures/comments on Citibank and New Yankee Stadium are more interesting to BBFers, since there are about 50,000 hits on those sites.

[Bill Burgess]

Bill, I'm amazed that the greatest hitter, greatest pitcher, and greatest player polls are receiving so little action. Perhaps it's because these things have been done before? I've only been on BBF this year so I don't know if this is old hat/boring to a lot of longer term BBFers.

Nonetheless, I think these are 3 of the most interesting and enjoyable threads and would hate to see them die off. Is there any way to go back and look at most/all of the participants in these 3 threads and PM them asking for their continued participation/support?

I know this would take some time/effort, but it really seems a shame that there is not more participation here. I guess pictures/comments on Citibank and New Yankee Stadium are more interesting to BBFers, since there are about 50,000 hits on those sites.

I hate to admit it, but I think you're right. Many of our longer-term members are 'polled-out'.

The reason I conduct these polls is that I think they are important. We are a fantastic pool of online fans, and documenting our opinions is an important task. And if I don't do it, probably no one else will.

I make it a point to document our opinions. Here is another one of my 'documentation threads', as opposed to our normal discussion threads.---Member's Official Opinions

[538280]

1. Willie Mays
2. Jimmie Foxx
3. Frank Thomas
4. Frank Robinson
5. Manny Ramirez

I don't really understand why Wagner is getting so much support here. Him or Mays clearly are the best overall players not yet elected but that's because Wagner was one of the best defenders ever at SS. As a hitter he was great but a 150 OPS+ in some of the weakest leagues in history doesn't get him up in this category IMO. And plus much of Wagner's power hitting was probably really more speed/baserunning. I still think Wagner would be a great hitter today but undoubtedly much of his extra base hits don't really reflect his hitting as much as his running.

[BigRon]

1. Willie Mays
2. Jimmie Foxx
3. Frank Thomas
4. Frank Robinson
5. Manny Ramirez

I don't really understand why Wagner is getting so much support here. Him or Mays clearly are the best overall players not yet elected but that's because Wagner was one of the best defenders ever at SS. As a hitter he was great but a 150 OPS+ in some of the weakest leagues in history doesn't get him up in this category IMO. And plus much of Wagner's power hitting was probably really more speed/baserunning. I still think Wagner would be a great hitter today but undoubtedly much of his extra base hits don't really reflect his hitting as much as his running.

Well, don't forget that Wagner played until a very advanced age- 43. Through 1912, age 38, his career OPS+ was 160, which is outstanding. I don't want to get into a debate about truncating the end of players' careers, since everybody would look better without the last 2 or 3 or 4 seasons, but in Wagner's case I think it's a valid point. He played 5 more seasons after 1912, most of them as a regular, and was still a very good player, but obviously not the force he had been for about 15 years. He added significantly to his counting totals but his rate stats came down quite a bit.