This is our seventeenth election in this project. The entire rules follow.
This election will run through 11:59:59 PM EDT July 31, 2009.
The prior election, and the ballots of the 1951 voters, are in this thread
Researcher/advocate/mod
This is our seventeenth election in this project. The entire rules follow.
This election will run through 11:59:59 PM EDT July 31, 2009.
The prior election, and the ballots of the 1951 voters, are in this thread
Last edited by jalbright; 07-18-2009 at 10:21 AM.
Seen on a bumper sticker: If only closed minds came with closed mouths.
Some minds are like concrete--thoroughly mixed up and permanently set.
Researcher/advocate/mod
Rules
1) All BBF users in good standing may participate. However, if there is more than one vote being cast from any one computer or IP, it must be cleared in advance. Should there be unannounced multiple votes from the same IP, I will investigate the circumstances, and all user names involved may be barred from this project as a result, and all but one of the multiple usernames permanently banned from the site. I only anticipate exceptions for family members living in the same home, but I will entertain requests on other bases. Please note that I and the other mods who participate in the project have the capability of determining the IP from which posts come, and I for one intend to monitor same. I have had to deal with a single user manipulating a project with multiple votes, and I don't intend to repeat the experience.
2) Elections will require a 10 voter quorum. If we do not get ten voters and there are candidate(s) who would be elected no matter what the voters needed to make a quorum did, those candidate(s) will be inducted. Otherwise, no one will be inducted. Further, if we fail to meet a quorum in two of any four consecutive elections, the project will end. If, for instance, we're doing fine on the player end but not the contributor end, I would drop the contributor end under this rule.
3) We will start in 1936, just as Cooperstown did. For the first election (1936), voters will rank their top 20, taking 10. After that we will go to having voters rank their top 12 players. Points awarded 12-11-10, etc. We will take the top five through 1940, then top three players per year elected until 2010, then two per year. If a voter does not number his selections, I will try to get him/her to do so. If they do not do so before the end of the election period, I may in my sole discretion invalidate the ballot. I have included this provision in order to ease the process of recording the votes. On another point, I know, the 1936 backlog is huge--but that was a historical issue they couldn't avoid, so neither will we.
4) We will also have a contributor ballot, which will elect one a year through 1985, then one every three (3) years. Contributors will be ranked 1 through 5, with points awarded 5-4-3-2-1. Voters may choose to participate in either one of the ballots or both.
5) It is permissible to vote for a candidate on both the contributor and player lists.
6) You are allowed to change your ballot at any time the ballot is open. However, if you change your ballot, you've got to notify me (jalbright) by PM or by a new post in the voting thread, or the changes likely will not be registered.
7) Players are eligible at the later of age 45 or the first year thereafter in which the player does not play. If the birthdate is not known, add five years to the first time the player misses a season and has less than 10 games the next season. There is an exception for early death, in which case the year of death plus two will be used if that yields an earlier date.
8) Contributors become eligible at age 65 or in the year of death plus two. whichever comes first.
9) Each election will run for approximately two weeks unless expressly altered by the project manager, contributors and players done simultaneously.
10) No one is excluded from being a candidate, regardless of the league they played in, except those elected in either the contributor or player ballots. At that point, they are removed from further consideration. If there are players who returned to the Negro Leagues or Japan after going to the majors, the departure from the majors will be their career end date for purposes of this project.
11) The standard for including a player on one's ballot is that the player must in the voter's opinion be among the very best eligible players (preferably the number voted on, but if a voter wishes to support someone they feel is 15th in a 12 person ballot instead of one of the top 12, it's too close for anyone to reasonably object. On the other hand, supporting the 25th best eligible candidate on a 12 person ballot is probably beyond the pale). I reserve the power to invalidate ballots which I do not feel are a reasonably knowledgeable, good faith effort to rank the players. One issue I am quite concerned about is that I do not want to see what clearly appear to be attempts to manipulate the ballot so as to elect a candidate. In isolation, I probably could live with this, but if it became a widely used tactic, the project would devolve into something I have no desire to be associated with. Moreover, I think that this position asks everyone else to cast legitimate votes so that you can manipulate the system to favor your pet candidates. I cannot accept that, as it strikes me as unfair to other voters. For example, you can't expect to favor even a legitimate HOF candidate like Bill Dahlen over Babe Ruth to get Dahlen elected without being asked to provide a reasonable justification for ranking Dahlen over Ruth. If you can provide a reasonable justification in that scenario, the ballot will stand. If not, you will be asked to make a change. Certainly, a reasonable justification does not indicate in essence simply that you want Dahlen elected. Furthermore, if I invalidate multiple ballots by the same individual as failing to meet this rule, that individual will forever lose the right to have his/her ballots counted. Voters are encouraged to consider character, sportsmanship, and compliance with the rules and spirit of baseball in their rankings of players.
12) I will post lists of eligible players and contributors before each election. If you have a question about the eligibility of a candidate, please ask. I will provide a list of future eligibility dates as well.
13) My eligibility lists come from all persons in the BBF HOF, BBTF Hall of Merit, and Cooperstown, plus all persons getting a vote in a BBF HOF election in the past year and a half or in a BBWAA election. This is a relatively comprehensive list, and thus I must request that if you want another candidate included, you provide some justification for why said candidate is worthy of getting a vote in this project. The main area I think this might come into play is if a voter supports a person who was eligible for the final selections from the recent pre WWII or Negro League committees but not on my master list. That fact alone would serve as ample justification for putting said candidate on the list. We may learn more about Cuban ball or what have you and thus include others after a case is made for them, however. The contributor list is undoubtedly not as comprehensive, and this fact will be taken into consideration.
14) Other than the sportsmanship and character issues, players are to be evaluated solely upon their play. I would prefer that if a player is qualified by his play standing alone that he be elected on that basis. However, a candidate may only be elected either as a contributor or a player, but not both. Contributors are the area where the entire body of work during his career in the sport, including his play, managing, scouting, executive, writing, broadcasting or other work in the sport is relevant. Contributors are to be ranked based on who the voter thinks is most worthy of induction into the Contributor group in this project.
15) Any ballot with two (2) or more spots unfilled with eligible candidates is invalid. In the event of the listing of ineligible names, I will try to notify the voter so that he/she can correct the ballot before the end of the voting period. If the change is made timely, it will count. If not, and there are two or more invalid names, the ballot will not be considered valid. If there is only one, the ineligible name will be stricken and all names after it on the affected ballot will be moved up one spot.
16) Any players listed beyond the 12th place for any ballot but the first (in which case it is 20th place) will be ignored. If more than one person is listed as tied for the last available place and the ballot is oversize, all names will be dropped, which may lead to the invalidation of the ballot.
17) Ties are not permitted in ballot listings. I reserve the right to invalidate ballots for use of ties in the rankings, be it within a single ballot or over the course of several ballots. If the voter does not correct such a listing voluntarily, except in the case of an oversize ballot tie for the last eligible place, if do not invalidate the ballot, I will choose the placement of the two "tied" candidates, generally preferring the candidate preferred by the other voters.
18) For any ties between candidates straddling the in/out line of selections, the first thing considered is the ranking of the candidates by the ballots cast. If there are more than two candidates tied, use a 3-2-1 or whatever is appropriate system. Once one person separates from the tied group, restart with the remaining candidates until there are only as many candidates as the rules call for being elected. If they remain tied after this process, the candidate with the most votes received wins. If it is still tied after that, those with the most #1 votes as the next step, then the most #2 votes and so on to see if that breaks the tie. If not, we will induct all candidates who remain tied at that point.
19) One thing we're going to have to be aware of is the timeline in the case of at least a few contributors. Two which jump out at me are Buck O'Neill, 1976, and Branch Rickey, 1946. I intend to eventually vote for both men, but in 1946, Jackie Robinson was still in Montreal. Really, Branch should wait until at least 1947 after Jackie's success in the majors to get credit for that move. If you think Rickey belongs in the top 5 in 1946 without his role in breaking the color line, that's fine--but he shouldn't get credit for that important success until it actually happened. Buck O'Neill did some important things up until 1976, but after that he was in Ken Burns' Baseball and he was instrumental in the establishment of the Negro Leagues Hall of Fame (both occurred in or around 1994). If you think he belongs based on accomplishments before those two things, that's perfectly acceptable, but please don't credit him with them before they actually happened.
20) I reserve the right to hold a Negro League special election in 2000 if we don't have a sufficient number in that category by then. These elections probably will be limited to voters I feel are appropriately versed on the group of players to be considered. I do wish to only use this as a last resort, however, and only to ensure that this group received what I regard as at least adequate bare minimum representation. I do not plan on sharing with you what I consider to meet those bare minimum standards, but I think that the number I am thinking of are well below the number of candidates that well informed observers believe are well qualified candidates from that group.
21) I will maintain a thread of the project's history and rules which will provide a listing of all elected candidates.
22) Feel free to ask questions by either sending jalbright a PM, or by posting a question in voting thread
Seen on a bumper sticker: If only closed minds came with closed mouths.
Some minds are like concrete--thoroughly mixed up and permanently set.
Researcher/advocate/mod
The players who become eligible in 1952 are:
On the contributor side, Joe McCarthy joins the list of eligibles.Code:Appling , Luke Bartell , Dick Camilli , Dolph Chandler , Spud Cuccinello , Tony Dickey , Bill Foxx , Jimmie Kress , Red Leonard , Buck Sewell , Rip Smith , Hilton Wyatt , Whit Young , Pep
Seen on a bumper sticker: If only closed minds came with closed mouths.
Some minds are like concrete--thoroughly mixed up and permanently set.
Researcher/advocate/mod
The 1951 player candidates who were not elected had these results in the that election:
The 1951 contributor candidates who were not elected had these results in the that election:Code:Player………. votes pts Magee , Sherry 11 75 Wheat , Zack 9 64 Bell, Cool 10 55 Lyons , Ted 9 55 Radbourn , C 9 53 Waddell , Rube 9 45 Jackson , Joe 4 43 Keeler , Willie 6 37 Start , Joe 4 33 Foster, Willie 6 29 Stovey , Harry 4 27 Ruffing , Red 5 26 Johnson , HR 6 25 Groh , Heinie 3 20 Flick , Elmer 4 19 Bennett , C 2 17 Sutton , Ezra 3 17 Traynor , Pie 4 17 McPhee , Bid 3 16 Klein, Chuck 2 15 Terry , Bill 3 15 Carey , Max 2 14 Mackey, Biz 2 14 Grant , Frank 2 12 Thompson , S 1 12 Coveleski , S 4 11 Joss , Addie 1 11 Gore , George 2 10 Caruthers , B 2 8 Maranville , R 2 7 Hill , Pete... 1 6 Berger , Wally 1 5 McGinnity , Joe 1 5 Browning , Pete 1 4 Faber , Red 1 4 Jennings , H 1 4 Duffy , Hugh 1 3 Glasscock , J 1 2 Grimes , B 1 1 McCormick , J 1 1
I strongly suggest that you pay attention to this list, as the leaders of the holdovers are likely to join any strong newcomer candidates as the leaders for winning induction.Code:contributor…….. votes pts Hanlon , Ned 10 29 Landis , K 7 25 Commiskey , C 9 24 Posey, Cum 6 18 Spink, Albert 4 15 Taylor , C. I. 2 8 Selee , Frank 3 7 Shoriki, M 1 5 Pearce, Dickey 1 4 Chance , Frank 2 3 Doubleday , A 1 3 Huggins , M 3 3 Wilkinson, J L 2 3 Bolden, Ed 1 2 Conlan , C 1 1 Connolly , Tom 1 1
Seen on a bumper sticker: If only closed minds came with closed mouths.
Some minds are like concrete--thoroughly mixed up and permanently set.
Researcher/advocate/mod
Members of the Best of Baseball Hall
Players
ContributorsCode:Pete Alexander Cap Anson Frank Baker Ross Barnes Dan Brouthers Mordecai Brown Jesse Burkett Oscar Charleston Fred Clarke John Clarkson Ty Cobb Mickey Cochrane Eddie Collins Jimmy Collins Jim O'Rourke Roger Connor Sam Crawford Joe Cronin Bill Dahlen George Davis Ed Delahanty Martin Dihigo Buck Ewing Frankie Frisch Lou Gehrig Charlie Gehringer Josh Gibson Goose Goslin Lefty Grove Billy Hamilton Gabby Hartnett Harry Heilmann Paul Hines Rogers Hornsby Carl Hubbell Walter Johnson Tim Keefe King Kelly Nap LaJoie Pop Lloyd Christy Mathewson Kid Nichols Jim O'Rourke Eddie Plank Bullet Joe Rogan Amos Rusie Babe Ruth Louis Santop Al Simmons George Sisler Tris Speaker Turkey Stearnes Mule Suttles Cristobal Torriente Dazzy Vance Honus Wagner Ed Walsh Paul Waner John M. Ward Deacon White Smoky Joe Williams Jud Wilson George Wright Cy Young
Code:Doc Adams Ed Barrow Alexander Cartwright Henry Chadwick Jim Creighton Rube Foster William Hulbert Ban Johnson Bill Klem Connie Mack John McGraw A. J. Reach Francis Richter Branch Rickey Al Spalding Harry Wright
Seen on a bumper sticker: If only closed minds came with closed mouths.
Some minds are like concrete--thoroughly mixed up and permanently set.
Researcher/advocate/mod
The complete list of eligible players:
The complete list of eligible contributors:Code:Adams , Babe Adams , Sparky Altrock , Nick Appling , Luke Archer , Jimmy Arlett , Buzz Austin , Jimmy Averill , Earl Bancroft , Dave Barry , Jack Bartell , Dick Battin , Joe Beaumont , Ginger Beckley , Jake Beckwith , John Bell , Cool Papa Bender , Chief Bennett , Charlie Benton , Larry Berg , Moe Bergen , Marty Berger , Wally Berry , Charlie Bigbee , Carson Bishop , Max Blades , Ray Blue , Lu Bluege , Ossie Bodie , Ping Boley , Joe Bond , Tommy Bottomley , Jim Bradley , Bill Breitenstein , Ted Bresnahan , Roger Bridges , Tommy Browning , Pete Burns , George J. Bush , Joe Bush , Donie Bush , Guy Cadore , Leon Camilli , Dolph Camnitz , Howie Carey , Max Carrigan , Bill Caruthers , Bob Cepeda , Perucho Chance , Frank Chandler , Spud Chapman , Ray Chase , Hal Chesbro , Jack Childs , Cupid Cicotte , Eddie Cissell , Bill Clark , Watty Coakley , Andy Collins , Shano Combs , Earle Conroy , Wid Coombs , Jack Cooper , Andy Cooper , Wilbur Coveleski , Stan Crandall , Doc Cravath , Gavvy Creighton , Jim Criger , Lou Critz , Hughie Cross , Lave Crowder , Al Cruise , Walt Cuccinello , Tony Cummings , Candy Cuyler , Kiki Daubert , Jake Davis , Curt Davis , Harry Davis , Spud Derringer , Paul Dickey , Bill Dinneen , Bill Doak , Bill Donlin , Mike Donovan , Bill Dooin , Red Doyle , Jack Doyle , Larry Duffy , Hugh Dugan , Joe Dunlap , Fred Dykes , Jimmy Earnshaw , George Ehmke , Howard Elberfeld , Kid Elliott , Jumbo Ens , Jewel Evers , Johnny Faber , Red Falkenberg , Cy Ferrell , Rick Fitzsimmons , Freddie Fletcher , Art Flick , Elmer Fonseca , Lew Foster , Eddie Foster , Willie Foxx , Jimmie Fraser , Chick Galvin , Pud Gelbert , Charlie Glasscock , Jack Gleason , Kid Gonzalez , Mike Gore , George Gowdy , Hank Grant , Eddie Grant , Frank Grantham , George Griffith , Clark Grimes , Burleigh Grimm , Charlie Groh , Heinie Haas , Mule Hafey , Chick Hahn , Noodles Haines , Jesse Hallahan , Bill Hargrave , Bubbles Harris , Bucky Harris , Vic Herman , Babe Herzog , Buck Hill , Pete Hinchman , Bill Hooper , Harry Hoyt , Waite Huggins , Miller Irwin , Charlie Jackman , Will Jackson , Joe Jennings , Hughie Johnson , Bob Johnson , Home Run Johnson , Judy Jones , Charley Jones , Fielder Jones , Sam P. Jordan , Tim Joss , Addie Judge , Joe Kamm , Willie Keeler , Willie Kelley , Joe Kerr , Dickie Killefer , Bill Kilroy , Matt Klein , Chuck Kling , Johnny Knabe , Otto Kremer , Ray Kress , Red Kuhel , Joe Lange , Bill Larkin , Henry Latham , Arlie Lazzeri , Tony Leach , Freddy Leach , Tommy Leever , Sam Leonard , Buck Lewis , Duffy Lindstrom , Freddie Lobert , Hans Long , Herman Lowe , Bobby Lucas , Red Lundy , Dick Luque , Dolf Lyons , Denny Lyons , Ted Mackey , Biz Magee , Sherry Mancuso , Gus Manush , Heinie Maranville , Rabbit Marberry , Firpo Marquard , Rube Martin , Pepper Mathews , Bobby Mays , Carl McAleer , Jimmy McCarthy , Tommy McCormick , Jim McGinnity , Joe McGowan , Bill McInnis , Stuffy McLean , Larry McManus , Marty McPhee , Bid McVey , Cal Meadows , Lee Mendez , Jose Meusel , Bob Milan , Clyde Miller , Bing Miller , Dots Miller , Hack Monroe , Bill Moore , Dobie Moran , Pat Mostil , Johnny Mullane , Tony Murphy , Danny Murray , Red Myer , Buddy Nehf , Art O'Doul , Lefty Oeschger , Joe O'Farrell , Bob O'Leary , Charlie Oms , Alejandro O'Neill , Steve O'Neill , Tip Orr , Dave Pabor , Charlie Paskert , Dode Pearce , Dickey Peckinpaugh , Roger Peitz , Heinie Pennock , Herb Perdue , Hub Perkins , Cy Phillippe , Deacon Pike , Lip Pipp , Wally Poles , Spotswood Pruett , Hub Quinn , Jack Radbourn , Charlie Raymond , Bugs Redding , Dick Remsen , Jack Rice , Sam Richardson , Hardy Ring , Jimmy Ritchey , Claude Rixey , Eppa Robertson , Dave Rommel , Eddie Root , Charlie Roush , Edd Rucker , Nap Rudolph , Dick Ruel , Muddy Ruffing , Red Ryan , Jimmy Schacht , Al Schaefer , Germany Schalk , Ray Schang , Wally Schreckengost , Ossie Schulte , Frank Scott , Everett Scott , Jack Severeid , Hank Sewell , Joe Sewell , Luke Sewell , Rip Seymour , Cy Sheckard , Jimmy Sherdel , Bill Shocker , Urban Smith , Earl Smith , Hilton Smith , Sherry Sparks , Tully Stahl , Jake Start , Joe Steinfeldt , Harry Stephenson , Riggs Stovey , Harry Street , Gabby Suhr , Gus Sukeforth , Clyde Sutton , Ezra Sweeney , Bill Tannehill , Jesse Taylor , Ben Tenney , Fred Terry , Bill Thevenow , Tommy Thomas , Ira Thompson , Sam Tiernan , Mike Tinker , Joe Toney , Fred Traynor , Pie Turner , Terry Uhle , George Van Haltren , George Veach , Bobby Waddell , Rube Walberg , Rube Wallace , Bobby Wambsganss , Bill Waner , Lloyd Warfield , Frank Welch , Mickey West , Sam Wheat , Zack White , Sol White , Will Whitehill , Earl Williams , Cy Williams , Ken Williamson , Ned Willis , Vic Wilson , Hack Wilson , Jimmie Witt , Whitey Wood , Joe Wright , Glenn Wyatt , Whit Yerkes , Steve Young , Pep Youngs , Ross Zachary , Tom Zimmer , Chief
Code:Abe , Iso Bancroft , Frank Bolden, Ed Bulkely , Morgan Carrigan, Bill Caylor , O. P. Chance , Frank Commiskey , Charlie Conlan , Charles Connolly , Tom Cooper , Andy Cummings , Candy Dinneen , Bill Doubleday , Abner Dreyfuss , Barney Dunn , Jack Elias , Al Munro Evans, Billy Foster , John B. Fullerton , Hugh Gleason , Kid Griffith , Clark Hanlon , Ned Harridge, Willie Hillerich , John Huggins , Miller Jennings , Hughie Krichell, Paul Landis , Kenesaw Lardner , Ring Leavitt, Jr. , Charles W. McCarthy , Tommy McCarthy, Joe McKechnie, Bill Mendez , Jose Mills , A. G. Moran , Pat Mutrie , Jim Navin , Frank Norworth, Jack Osborn , Frank Posey, Cum Reach , A. J. Rice, Grantland Robinson , Wilbert Ruppert , Jacob Selee , Frank Shibe , Ben Shoriki, Matsutaro Spink, Albert Stallings , George Street, Gabby Taylor , C. I. Thayer , Ernest Warfield , Frank White , Sol Wilkinson , J. L. Wilson , Horace
Seen on a bumper sticker: If only closed minds came with closed mouths.
Some minds are like concrete--thoroughly mixed up and permanently set.
History Mod
1) Jimmie Foxx
2) Bill Dickey
3) Luke Appling
4) Buck Leonard
5) Charlie Bennett
6) Charlie Radbourne
7) Rube Waddell
8) Sherry Magee
9) Ted Lyons
10) Zack Wheat
11) Willie Foster
12) Home Run Johnson
1) Dickey Pearce
2) Commissioner Landis
3) Charlie Commiskey
4) Ned Hanlon
5) Joe McCarthy
--Newcomers Foxx, Dickey, Appling and Leonard all jump to the top of the ballot. They replace the 3 elected players and push Rabbit Maranville off theballot for now.
Last edited by leecemark; 07-18-2009 at 10:39 AM.
Researcher/advocate/mod
My ballot:
Players
1. Jimmie Foxx
2. Bill Dickey
3. Luke Appling
4. Sherry Magee
5. Zack Wheat
6. Ted Lyons
7. Cool Papa Bell
8. Red Ruffing
9. Rube Waddell
10. Willie Foster
11. Home Run Johnson
12. Buck Leonard
Contributors
1. Kennesaw Landis
2. Joe McCarthy
3. Ned Hanlon
4. Cum Posey
5. Charlie Commiskey
I supported only one inductee last time, Joe Cronin, and I have a lot of guys I want to add this time. That means a lot of shuffling. The contributor side is easiest, as Miller Huggins drops off to make room for Joe McCarthy. Joe goes in at #2, so everybody else drops back. On the player side, I'm adding Jimmie Foxx, Bill Dickey and Luke Appling in the top 3 spots in that order, and Buck Leonard comes in at the bottom of the ballot. To make room, it was comparatively easy to drop two guys who haven't yet mustered much support beyond my vote, Burleigh Grimes and Joe McGinnity. The last choice was painful, but I'm going to drop Harry Stovey because he's only garnered the support of three other voters. Of course, the guys getting dropped will reappear in due time, most likely sooner rather than later.
The only 1951 induction I question for our hall by the time we're done is Cartwright, for reasons I've already stated. I don't feature running a "don't elect candidate X" campaign, particularly this early in the process, even were the matter not a done deal. As it is, it's irrelevant. As for Sisler and Collins, I just think they were inducted earlier than I would have done.
Last edited by jalbright; 07-18-2009 at 10:20 AM.
Seen on a bumper sticker: If only closed minds came with closed mouths.
Some minds are like concrete--thoroughly mixed up and permanently set.
Registered User
01. Jimmie Foxx
02. Sherry Magee
03. Joe Jackson
04. Heinie Groh
05. Bill Dickey
06. Cool Papa Bell
07. Luke Appling
08. Zack Wheat
09. Rube Waddell
10. Wally Berger
11. Willie Foster
12. Buck Leonard
01. Joe McCarthy
02. Kenesaw Landis
03. Ned Hanlon
04. Cum Posey
05. Miller Huggins
Registered User
Players
1. Jimmie Foxx
2. Sam Thompson
3. Joe Jackson
4. Willie Keeler
5. Chuck Klein
6. Charley Radbourn
7. Luke Appling
8. Bill Dickey
9. Harry Stovey
10. Zack Wheat
11. Bill Terry
12. Pud Galvin
Contributors
1. Kenesaw Landis
2. Joe McCarthy
3. Abner Doubleday
4. Charles Commiskey
5. Charles Conlon
Registered User
Players
1 Foxx
2 Appling
3 LEONARD
4 Dickey
5 JOHNSON G
6 Radbourn
7 Gore
8 Start
9 Lyons T
10 Groh
11 Flick
12 McPhee
Contributors
1 Comiskey
2 Posey
3 Hanlon
4 Wilkinson
5 Selee
Last edited by Paul Wendt; 07-18-2009 at 10:33 AM.
Researcher/advocate/mod
Buck Leonard
Years played: 1933-1950
Main position: 1B
All Star selections: in Negro League All Star game in 11 seasons
MVPs: 3 ESPN, 4 James and 1 Holway
League champions on: 9 American summers, 1 Cuban Winter, 1 California Winter
League leading performances: In American summers, was in top five in average five times (led once), in the top three in homers eight times (led twice). In Puerto Rico, led in homers once and was second one time in runs.
Expert rankings: #1 first baseman in CPDD historian’s poll, #1 first baseman in Courier poll, first in SABR poll, #1 first baseman in Museum poll, James’ #1 Negro League 1B and 65th overall, Clark’s third team 1B and on Team #2 in All World selections.
He certainly wasn’t helped at least in his power numbers in Griffith Stadium in American summer play, but even so, his data in Shades of Glory are impressive. He averaged .320 for his American summer career with a .421 OBP and .527 slugging behind 22.4 homers per 550 AB. I rank him just behind McCovey among first basemen.
I think his best comp is a relatively recent 1B, Will Clark. Leonard probably played in a higher offensive era, but he's a little better and played a little longer. That's based on my understanding that the projection tries to account for the fact Leonard played a lot in Griffith Stadium, a notorious pitcher's park. Staying with that assumption, if we change 4 of Clark's homers per 162 games to singles and add 38 walks in those same 162 games, we're really closing in on Leonard:
All those extra walks mean Leonard has significantly more value than Clark, as does the extra 380+ PACode:hitter...... hand pos PA avg obp slg years Leonard... L 1B 8666 308 417 476 1934-53 Clark....... L 1B 8283 303 384 497 1986-2000 adjusted... L 1B 8746 303 417 476 -----------
Last edited by jalbright; 07-18-2009 at 01:35 PM.
Seen on a bumper sticker: If only closed minds came with closed mouths.
Some minds are like concrete--thoroughly mixed up and permanently set.
2004 & 2007
Players:
1. Jimmie Foxx
2. Bill Dickey
3. Luke Appling
4. Zack Wheat
5. Buck Leonard
6. Willie Foster
7. Cool Papa Bell
8. Old Hoss Radbourn
9. Biz Mackey
10. Hilton Smith
11. Frank Grant
12. Sherry Magee
Contributors:
1. C. I. Taylor
2. Al Spink
3. Cum Posey
4. Joe McCarthy
5. Charles Comiskey
Registered User
1. Jimmie Foxx
2. Luke Appling
3. Bill Dickey
4. Buck Leonard
5. Ted Lyons
6. Elmer Flick
7. Willie Foster
8. Home Run Johnson
9. Red Ruffing
10. Pete Hill
11. Heinie Groh
12. Hughie Jennings
Registered User
1 Joe Jackson
2 Jimmy Foxx
3 Addie Joss
4 Buck Leonard
5 Willie Keeler
6 Bid McPhee
7 Bill Dickey
8 Rube Waddell
9 Bill Terry
10 Chuck Klien
11 Luke Appling
12 Pie Traynor
1. Jimmie Foxx
2. Bill Dickey
3. Luke Appling
4. Hoss Radbourne
5. Pie Traynor
6. Bob Caruthers
7. Willie Keeler
8. Stan Coveleski
9. Bill Terry
10. Sherry Magee
11. Cool Papa Bell
12. Zack Wheat
1. McCarthy
2. Albert Spink
3. Landis
4. Hanlon
5. Selee
swapped in Wheat for Waddell, Buck Leonard is close as well.
OSHA-certified Moderator
1. Jimmie Foxx
2. Buck Leonard
3. Bill Dickey
4. Luke Appling
5. Willie Keeler
6. Cool Papa Bell
7. Charles Radbourne
8. Harry Stovey
9. Sherry Magee
10. Zack Wheat
11. Max Carey
12. Ted Lyons
Contributors
1. Ned Hanlon
2. Charles Comiskey
3. Frank Chance
4. Kenesaw Landis
5. Joe McCarthy
Tom Tresh George Kell Mark Fidrych Bob Feller
Ernie Harwell Soupy Sales Alex Chilton Sparky Anderson
Joe Nuxhall Gary Carter MCA Emanuel Steward
Sonny Elliot Dave Brubeck Earl Weaver Stan Musial
Jonathan Winters Neil Armstrong Roger Ebert Anthony Zahler
Ray Manzarek
Researcher/advocate/mod
We now have a quorum for the player ballot. We're two away on the player side.
On another note, I won't have ready access to my computer for most of the week. My brother mods, though, will be watching this and other forums I'm involved with to ensure things stay in order.
Seen on a bumper sticker: If only closed minds came with closed mouths.
Some minds are like concrete--thoroughly mixed up and permanently set.
Registered User
1 Jimmie Foxx
2 Buck Leonard
3 Bill Dickey
4 Luke Appling
5 Joe Jackson
6 Zack Wheat
7 Sherry Magee
8 Joe Start
9 Ted Lyons
10 Bid McPhee
11 Red Faber
12 Elmer Flick
Now that Joe Jackson has "shuffled off this mortal coil" the punishment need no longer be meted out. I can now honor him for the great player that he was.
Last edited by Freakshow; 07-20-2009 at 09:02 AM. Reason: Jackson added, Radbourn off
Eradicate, wipe out and abolish redundancy.
Free El Duque! -- discover how the HOF rules are cheating this renowned member of Torre's Yankees dynasty and ask the HOF to include him on the ballot for the next BBWAA election.
a posse ad esse
Players
1. Jimmie Foxx
2. Buck Leonard
3. Joe Jackson
4. Cool Papa Bell
5. Bill Dickey
6. Luke Appling
7. Biz Mackey
8. Frank Grant
9. Rube Waddell
10. Sherry Magee
11. Stan Coveleski
12. Charley Radbourn
Contributors
1. Joe McCarthy
2. Ned Hanlon
3. Alfred Spink
4. Ed Bolden
5. Tom Connolly
Last edited by J W; 07-20-2009 at 07:50 AM.
September 16, 2012: The Losing Streak Ends
Registered User
Players:
1. Jimmie Foxx
2. Ezra Sutton
3. Bill Dickey
4. Joe Start
5. Red Ruffing
6. Luke Appling
7. Charlie Bennett
8. Rabbit Maranville
9. Pie Traynor
10. Buck Leonard
11. Cool Papa Bell
12. Ted Lyons
Contributors:
1. Joe McCarthy
2. Matsutaro Shoriki
3. Cum Posey
4. Charley Comiskey
5. Ned Hanlon
Researcher/advocate/mod
In 1953, the contributors will add J. G. Taylor Spink and Ty Tyson. Spink may take some of Albert's support, and graft some on to it.
As for the players, we'll be adding:
I'll be voting for Brown and Wells right away, and Ferrell will get my vote unless elected before I get down to him. Lombardi and Gomez will garner support at least in time. The rest aren't a threat to be elected.Code:Brown , Ray Chapman , Ben Ferrell , Wes Gomez , Lefty Jurges , Billy Lombardi , Ernie Lopez , Al Moore , Jo-Jo Pearson , Monte Rolfe , Red Selkirk , George Wells , Willie Werber , Billy
Seen on a bumper sticker: If only closed minds came with closed mouths.
Some minds are like concrete--thoroughly mixed up and permanently set.
Researcher/advocate/mod
We haven't regained any of the three eligible voters who we lost last election (AG2004, Ubiquitous, and Sockeye) and there are two who voted last election who haven't yet in this one, namely AstrosFan and Brad Harris. I'll PM the latter two if they haven't voted by Monday morning.
We're exactly at a quorum on the contributor ballot.
Seen on a bumper sticker: If only closed minds came with closed mouths.
Some minds are like concrete--thoroughly mixed up and permanently set.
Researcher/advocate/mod
We've got 10 players who have garnered at least 50% of the vote, including the current leaders (in alphabetical order):
Luke Appling
Cool Papa Bell
Bill Dickey
Jimmie Foxx
Buck Leonard
Ted Lyons
Sherry Magee
Charlie Radbourn
Rube Waddell
Zack Wheat
Three will be elected this time, and I'd expect the rest to make it in the next decade or so.
Similarly, we have five contributors who have pulled at least 50% of the vote:
Charlie Commiskey
Ned Hanlon
Kennesaw Landis
Joe McCarthy
Cum Posey
One of them will make it this time, and I'd expect the rest to make it within a decade.
Seen on a bumper sticker: If only closed minds came with closed mouths.
Some minds are like concrete--thoroughly mixed up and permanently set.
Registered User
Some may never be elected but the twelve leading holdovers from 1951 comprise five pitchers, six outfielders, and old-time firstbaseman Joe Start (one of those whose election is uncertain).
>> [quoting the introduction by Jim Albright]
> The 1951 player candidates who were not elected had these results in the that election:
<<Code:Player………. votes pts Magee , Sherry 11 75 Wheat , Zack 9 64 Bell, Cool 10 55 Lyons , Ted 9 55 Radbourn , C 9 53 Waddell , Rube 9 45 Jackson , Joe 4 43 Keeler , Willie 6 37 Start , Joe 4 33 Foster, Willie 6 29 Stovey , Harry 4 27 Ruffing , Red 5 26 ...
We may expect election of a catcher and shortstop this year, which will put the fielding positions c-3b-ss-2b nearly on a par with lf-cf-rf-1b in the count of all members (24 and 25 beside 17 pitchers).
See the distribution of members by debut and fielding position (current thru 1951).
Last edited by Paul Wendt; 07-26-2009 at 11:39 AM. Reason: link
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