8yo Pitching Pics ... Do you see what I see?

[CircleChange11]

Here's are some pics of my son, sometimes known as 'Little Z' after his favorite pitcher. As a quick background, we started how I start all young pitchers and that is going from the stretch with minimal leg kick, "knee to knee pitching" as it's sometimes called. Once that is habit, we start with a leg raise, etc.

What I am asking is if you will view these sequenced photos (taken from different games) and see if we notice the same things. I really try not to be a "nit pick" dad/coach, because I know what that's like (sucks), and I realize that you could view essentially every pitch/swing and find something that needs "fixed" or was a "little off". So, I'm looking to make sure there is nothing BIG wrong. Thanks in advance. Coaching nepohyte pitchers is new to me, since I usually dealing with the bigger guys (although emotionally, they're about the same).



[1] Leg lift, to me, looks pretty good and balanced ... a little open on occassion, and I do have him "crunching" his upper body forward a little bit to avoid the "backward lean" (i.e., steve avery) that can happen when guys try the 'tall and fall' approach.

[2] He's bringing the ball down too low during the seperation. This creates a longer arm/ball path than is needed (his foot will land at stride point long before the arm will be at the top ... ball facing 3B). That's an easy fix, don't let the ball drop below the belt ... like when you're making a throw from SS.

He does do an excellent job, for his age, of lowering the foot and then 'gliding' it out to stride point, and as of late his stride length is roughly his height (which may be too large at this point, given what I see in steps 3 and 4)



[3] Equal and Opposite (as its called) is pretty decent. The 3rd pic (from the left) is about as good as I've seen for his age, actually most kids just bring it 'to their ear' and short arm the ball because of "big ball little hands".

[4] This step bothers me, and is essentially the point of the post. I've got him really working on bringing the elbow of his glove hand toward his hip with some force as a means of using the core to generate arm speed. My concern is that by accentuating this he is over-pulling and causing himslf to 'lean'. Either he does not understand how I am phrasing it (or I am phrasing it incorrectly), or he simply doesn't have the core strength to remain more 'upright' or something else I haven't figured out yet ... which is where I'm hoping you guys come in. We looked at pictures from Chris O'Leary's site, and right off Little Z tells me "I'm leaning". I'm just not exactly sure how to go about correcting it. Just bein' honest. I use the phrase "put your nose in the mit" as a visual for getting your face out above (or in front) of your lead knee (bent/flexed), but that doesn't appear to be working.



[5] Follow through is pretty good, given age of the pitcher. He pulls his leg over rather well. I suspect that pulling his glove to the hip in a slightly outward motion is causing some of the 'lean', but the arm follow through is good and he finishes the pitch. I would prefer that he continue the follow through a little bit more towards the catcher (like the 11yo pitcher that someone posted video of the other day), but that will come. We're taking "baby steps", and trying not to get too carried away (seriously *grin*).

Thanks guys.

[Ursa Major]

CC, he looks pretty good, though it would help to see what he's doing between steps 3 and 4. (And, there's nothing like video to really see how it's put together.) I especially like the "gliding it out to the stride point" cue, as too many kids at this age want to open up too early. And I don't think his stride is too long -- again, at this age too many kids have strides that are too short. And I don't see a problem with his hand dropping below his waist at separation (and note the spelling of the word, Professor ); if he tries to avoid that he may end up just bringing his hand up to his ear like a catcher about to throw to second base.

This may appear to run counter to our discussion in the other thread about teaching top level mechanics as early as possible, but I think that there are diminishing returns in teaching too much about pitching at this point, as he still has a lot of developing to do with regard to the simple act of throwing a baseball, which of course will naturally be incorporated into his pitching motion.

I'm probably projecting, but I'm of the opinion that the best way for a kid to learn to throw a baseball after picking up basic footwork and arm motion instruction, is to simply throw and teach himself based on self-feedback as to what works. Nothing beats learning how to throw well and developing arm strength than just going out and throwing.

With where he is now, I'd think the important thing would be too just get comfortable enough to find a consistent arm slot and consistent release point, so that he can throw strikes. At this age, if he's got any velocity at all and can keep the ball consistently in the strike zone between the knees and the belt, he'll be a regular starter for any team he's on.

[CircleChange11]

CC, he looks pretty good, though it would help to see what he's doing between steps 3 and 4. (And, there's nothing like video to really see how it's put together.)

Video is the next step. These are the 1st pics I've viewed of him in regards to actually looking at mechanics.

I especially like the "gliding it out to the stride point" cue, as too many kids at this age want to open up too early.

There's a lot of "stepping over a log" strides in youth baseball. It kills me. Don't kids watch TV anymore? *grin* No pitcher in baseball steps over a log.

And I don't think his stride is too long -- again, at this age too many kids have strides that are too short.

My only concern regarding the stride length is if it is not possible, due to lack of core strength or balance, to prevent leaning, resulting in "elbow leading" that may eventually cause unnecessary stress to his elbow.

And I don't see a problem with his hand dropping below his waist at separation (and note the spelling of the word, Professor ); if he tries to avoid that he may end up just bringing his hand up to his ear like a catcher about to throw to second base.

Not to get repetitive, but my only concern regards to bringing the ball down that low is if his arm cannot catch up and "leading with his elbow" and "leaning" is the only way to get his arm to 'catch up'.

This may appear to run counter to our discussion in the other thread about teaching top level mechanics as early as possible, but I think that there are diminishing returns in teaching too much about pitching at this point, as he still has a lot of developing to do with regard to the simple act of throwing a baseball, which of course will naturally be incorporated into his pitching motion.

I only want to teach him proper mechanics as a means of ensuring the likelihood of high quality arm health. If he's doing something that may lead to an obvious injury at age 12, I want to correct it when he's 8.

I'm probably projecting, but I'm of the opinion that the best way for a kid to learn to throw a baseball after picking up basic footwork and arm motion instruction, is to simply throw and teach himself based on self-feedback as to what works. Nothing beats learning how to throw well and developing arm strength than just going out and throwing.

I have no concerns from that aspect. His throwing from SS is a "coach's dream" and a danger to any kid playing 1B for the 1st time. We pitch/hit daily, 30-40 pitches and 50-70 swings, as well as, playing catch in the front yard. It's what he likes to do.

With where he is now, I'd think the important thing would be too just get comfortable enough to find a consistent arm slot and consistent release point, so that he can throw strikes. At this age, if he's got any velocity at all and can keep the ball consistently in the strike zone between the knees and the belt, he'll be a regular starter for any team he's on.

Performance is a non-issue. He performs at a level that is one or two leagues above the 9U league he is in. If it was just based on performance, I'd leave him alone and let him continue blowing everyone away for the next 10 years. To quote Bull Durham, 'The Gods reached down and turned his right arm into a thunderbolt.' That's nothing I've coached.

My concern is all about ensuring that there's isn't anything he's doing at 8yo that is heading toward an injury at 12 or 15. If there is, I can help fix it now. Performance is a non-issue for me. The big concern for me is the 'elbow leading' and the leaning. It would be nice to have video to go frame-by-frame and see exactly where the leaning starts and where his arm/ball is when the front foot is at stride point.

[devilsadvocate]

CC, he looks pretty good, though it would help to see what he's doing between steps 3 and 4.

I agree with Ursa. That last pic in your step 3 should still look like pics 1-3 with regard to glove arm positioning if you're trying to follow House's "equal and opposite". House wants you to be "equal and opposite" at front foot strike. Your guy has left that position before foot strike. That's why seeing what happens between steps 3 and 4 is important.

I would avoid pulling the glove elbow to the hip. Pulling the glove side usually results in early shoulder rotation and that is what may be contributing to the lean.

With respect to how the back leg pulls through, compare the path the back foot takes to the arm slot. Similar, right? It's a biomechanical inevitability. It's dictated by arm slot and posture. Use it as an indicator, but don't instruct it. It's a non-teach.

[CircleChange11]

I agree with Ursa. That last pic in your step 3 should still look like pics 1-3 with regard to glove arm positioning if you're trying to follow House's "equal and opposite". House wants you to be "equal and opposite" at front foot strike. Your guy has left that position before foot strike.

I'm not really a follower of any guru (I pick and choose what I see working with different guys and try not get pigeon-holed or emotionally attached to any dogma/philosophy). At foot strike, I'd like to see the throwing arm in an L-shape (vertical forearm) with the ball pointing towards 3B, as this is a sound mechanical position regardless of who puts a label on it or writes a book about it.

That's why seeing what happens between steps 3 and 4 is important.

I agree. I'm working with the limitations of a camera that takes "sequential" photos when you hold the button down (whatever the tech term for this is). It doesn't take pictures 'fast enough' to get a good frame-by-frame sequence. I don;t have a single photo of an intermediate step between 3 and 4 (indicating he's executing the move rather quickly). If it did I would certainly post them for observation, because for the most part, given the age of the hurler, step 3 is generally pretty good, but it gives no indication of what induces the lean.

My 'guess' is that he's taking the "pull the elbow to the hip with force" to the extreme. If that's the case, then we can simply just have the glove move to a 'tucked position'. Young guys may not have the core/oblique strength to really "pull it in hard" (while remaining upright with the spine displaying a "power curve") like the bigger guys do.

I would avoid pulling the glove elbow to the hip. Pulling the glove side usually results in early shoulder rotation and that is what may be contributing to the lean.

I suspect you are very correct.

With respect to how the back leg pulls through, compare the path the back foot takes to the arm slot. Similar, right? It's a biomechanical inevitability. It's dictated by arm slot and posture. Use it as an indicator, but don't instruct it. It's a non-teach.

The leg coming "over the top" is the end result of doing other things correctly, namely rotation and following through with the pitching arm. I never teach a "a push off" but rather a "pull through", the hips rotate and pull the arm and eventually the leg to its finial position. I agree you on this also.

The main thing I look for with younger guys, even junior high pitchers, regarding the leg "coming over the top" is that they are not dragging their back leg/foot like an anchor ... and well, when you follow through with your pitching hand ending up passing your lead knee, it's kinda hard for the leg not to follow. I agree with you again, that it's an indiciation point, not an instruction point.

Without video, we're not going to see exactly how the lean initiates, but for starters we'll concentrate on just moving the glove to a tucked position near the ribs versus pulling it with force.

Thanks for the comments and your time guys, it is greatly appreciated.

Please keep the comments/suggestions coming, and I'll keep it updated in regards to what I find is causing the lean, or if NOT pulling the gloveside hard results in an improved/safer pitching posture.

[PhilliesPhan22]

He's 8, just let him go. It looks fine.

[CircleChange11]

He's 8, just let him go. It looks fine.

In hindsight, that's what I should have done before showing him the gloveside arm action. Too much, too early. I supposse that happens to coaches that go from coaching older kids, to young ones.

Our focus is always having fun and learning and the game.

[PhilliesPhan22]

Our focus is always having fun and learning and the game.

I agree. However, if the player shows interest in getting more in depth about the game, by all means teach.

[CircleChange11]

I agree. However, if the player shows interest in getting more in depth about the game, by all means teach.

He's a not a typical 8yo in any sense in regards to baseball. He's been in HS and JH dugouts from an early age, and due to coaching connections (buddies, relatives) he gets to go to camps for older kids, etc. It's rarely similar to coaching other kids his age who are still working on making contact, being in the ready position, or learning to throw "like a boy".

We went to a Cardinals-DBacks game last Sunday and after overhearing 2 guys sitting behind us asking if Felipe Lopez was the same Lopez that used to play for the Cards, Jacob tells him "Yes, he signed with Arizona as a free agent". Later on, in a discussion with the same guys he tells em "When Glaus gets back, they should move DeRosa to 2B, and put Schumaker back in LF." He didn't hear that from me. When he gets a baseball video game, the first thing he does is go to the rosters and make all the MLB trades and FA signings and calls up all the minor league prospects that are no longer in the minors. Your guess is as good as mine.

Many times it's not necessarily a case of me or my buddies showing him things that are "above him", but rather him seeing it done on TV or with the older kids and going out an emulating it. So, we often give him instruction just to ensure he's 'doing it right'.

As I type this, he and I watching the Cubs game on encore/replay and he's "keeping the book" in his notebook, writing down what each guys does during each at bat. It's like watching the game with an "in house" broadcaster, which can be really interesting or annoying depending on the amount/frequency of the commentary *huge grin*.

He's a fun and interesting kid to say the least, but in regards to baseball, he's far from typical (which presents challenges of its own).

Thanks again for the comments/discussions. The occassion is rare where I get the opportunity to discuss anything dealing with his performance/mechanics/passion because it will most often be interpreted as bragging. So, I pretty much work with him in private, compliment other players for little things done right, and put my 'practice time' on the other squids.

[shake-n-bake]

Don't know how important this is, but it's something that I see my son do that most younger kids do not. He has a long stride, gets his upper body way out over his stride leg prior to release, then focuses on staying behind the ball and "pulling" it through to release.

Here he is at 9 -- http://s421.photobucket.com/albums/p...t=DSC08128.jpg

at 10 -- http://s421.photobucket.com/albums/p...t=DSC08384.jpg

and this year at 11 -- http://s421.photobucket.com/albums/p...all2009021.jpg

I didn't teach him this. At 8, he pitched in a Majors LL fall league (and not just for novelty sake). His velocity was adequate to pitch on a team that was mostly made up of kids that were on our 11/12 AS team that was a couple outs away from beating a team that went DEEP into the LLWS. He was league age 8, and actually still 8. Many of the kids were 13. I really believe what you see in the photos is the reason.

[CircleChange11]

S'N'B,

that's beautiful. Getting the upright upper body over a flexed/bent front knee is what I usually refer to as "puttin' your nose in the catcher' mitt."

That's a big boy right there ... And that's a good thing.

Judging by where my son's glove ends up after release (it's behind him), I'm reasonably certain that he's either pulling far too hard with it and/or pulling it in a path that is too far away from his core ... Both would commonly result in leaning. That's an easy fix.

Thanks for sharing the pix of your son; I haven't viewed many images of young pitchers, with most kiddos just using the "step and aim" approach, which could be expected given the newness of the situation.

[DClutch]

your son is awesome. I hope my son is like that! Also I've seen you around 2k before. lol.

[CircleChange11]

Also I've seen you around 2k before. lol.

Cool. How long until he asks me "Dad, can a make a franchise on the internet?" Heh Heh.

He goes to work with me on 1/2 days in the summer and reads chris o'leary's website and looks at pictures on hitting/pitching mechanics. "Dad, what does 'linear' mean?" Geez. Some days it would be nice if he had an "off" switch, but I ain't complainin'.

He wakes up and checks the internet for baseball news (and to see if Zavada pitched), and was the first to report to me that the Cardinals acquired Holliday. He's 'something' alright. 2yo brother is right there with him.

I'm sure I'll see ya around at some type of baseball-related site.

[DClutch]

Thats kind of like myself. Always thinking baseball. Sadly, the only people to talk to about baseball are on the internet.