For almost as long as children have been throwing baseballs, adults have been telling them about the worst thing they could do to their still-developing arms: throw curves.
Two studies have concluded that curves are less stressful than fastballs and, based on the data collected, contributed little, if at all, to throwing injuries in youth players.
http://www.nytimes.com/2009/07/26/sp...l/26score.html
Coach - Analyst
The study concluded that youth curveballs were not necessarily more stressful on the arm than youth fastballs. This does not mean curveballs are not dangerous. This is a difference lost in the rhetoric of the article, and even Dr. Andrews is quick to point it out.
Additionally, releasing a pitch with a supinated grip but a lesser release velocity will probably show less force distributed across the arm. Does this make it safer? Not necessarily. The reasons why should be obvious.
Baseball Coaching and Training
"You have to face reality some time. But there's no sense in facing it until somebody forces you to." -Billy Beane
Studies such as this are not new. However, as pointed out by Kylebee, the language in the various articles is telling. Often, they use phrases such as, "when thrown properly." The problem then is whether the coach, parent, player realize when throwing the curve whether they are doing so, properly."
Granny said Sonny stick to your guns if you believe in something no matter what. Because it's better to be hated for who you are than to be loved for who you're not. I rule his pathetic life!
Great replies by Kylebee and Cannonball. This goes back to my earlier post on who's "right" when it comes to proper swing mechanics. The conclusion reached was that sometimes you have to be content knowing you're right about something and make sure your kids, or the ones you coach, benefit from your approach.
The thing I don't understand, I guess, is the amount of time spent on the debate about youths throwing breaking pitches. To use the batting example, if a kid is linear or rotational he can manage to have to some level of success up to the point where the pitching gets better or natural athleticism is no longer enough. In neither linear or rotational is there any danger of physical damage to the player's body (i.e., you can disagree about the merits of each approach, but neither has a lasting physical impact on a player due to injury).
With breaking pitches, however, I'm not sure the same can be said. There is probably a very good chance that throwing breaking pitches before the body is ready for it will cause damage (premature, permanent, etc.). Whether this damage is due to fundamental issues (physically not ready to throw it) or mechanical (unable to replicate the correct throwing motion) doesn't really matter. Unlike the differences in batting approach, this one can do physical harm to a player's body.
I can't site scientific studies on this but am paying attention to all the 12U and below kids that are throwing breaking pitches now. I will wager that they will not be pitching in HS because of injury. Is any success they earn now "worth" that? I often wonder who the folks who argue about teaching young kids breaking pitches are trying to convince. If they think it's great then make the case and see who reacts positively. There will always be those who think its proper and not harmful.
To each their own, I guess. I'm going to continue to focus on fastballs and change ups with my kids and players. Your mileage may vary.
This is an issue that people have an emotional attachment to (likely because it deals with kids' safety). When emotion is involved, "ANY evidence that agrees with you is enough, NO amount that disagrees with you is". It that regard it's almost like Faith and Politics, you have your opinion, and THEN you look for evidence to support it (generally spesaking).Originally Posted by Rufus67
For some dads/coaches, this data is 'more than enough' regardless of what the words actually say. For other dads/coaches, no amount of data will ever be enough to support 12U kids throwing the deuce.
For me, personally, it's not primarily a health issue ... it's a pitching issue. There is "throwing a curveball" and then there is what I call "deucing it up", with the latter greatly impedes the process of "learning how to pitch".
I often say that I won't allow my son to throw a '2' until he's in 8th/9th grade, but I'm also not an idiot ... I know what he's going to be doing when he's playing catch with someone when I'm not around. I can either let him "learn it from someone else" and end up throwing a 'twister', or I can teach him how to throw it properly and use it sparingly. I'll cross that bridge when I come to it.
But, from observations of youth pitching, it seems the kids that do throw curveballs throw way too many of them. I'm not sure if it is because it's a "big boy" thing to do, or if coach calls it because it makes him look good that his pitchers know how to throw a deuce, or it could just be because so many hitters have a problem hitting anything but moves. But really, at that level, I question the curveball for the amount of movement the kids have (not much) in trade for the reduction in speed (quite a bit). It almost seems like a "poor trade", unless you throw it in the dirt (always seems to be a swing and miss), but then there'd better not be anyone on base.
There's a whole lot about 12U kids throwing curveballs I do not prefer or agree with, but I also operate within the reality is that kids will often do what they see on TV or the older kids do, whether you teach them how to do it correctly, or they learn it from someone else or try and figure it out for themselves.
Very true, good point. Also keep in mind that "studies" work that way also. They can be used to prove a forgone conclusion rather than to discover the truth. Just by changing the way a test is done or by the selection of the test subjects studies can be guided toward certain outcomes.
My opinion for what it's worth is this. I feel there is a big difference between showing it 8 times a game or 40. My kid throws a knuckle-curve. He can and does throw it for called strikes. He has never thrown it more than 6 times in any game. Just enough to put it in the batters head. He was shown the "proper" way to throw it, but I still am not sold. I think it has improved the efectiveness of his change up, but that is probably bs.
Sure.
In a "study", one could classify EVERY pitcher injured throwing a curveball as having 'thrown it improperly' and THEN conclude ... "Pitchers that throw curveballs properly are not at risk of injury".
Never mind the 1,759 (give or take 1 or 2 *grin*) variables that go into an injury.
I think not only from a standpoint of health but also pitcher developement banning curves is a good thing.
For me the primary art in pitching is locating the fastball precisely to all spots. If you can throw only fastballs you have to be very precise to have sucess. A pitcher who can paint all corners with his fastball whenever he wants is the true master for me.
To often there are fireballer with no controll or throwers who throw crazy moving balls near the strikezone and get their outs in that way.
For me the developement of a pitcher should have 3 stages with the next only beginning when the last is on a high level:
1) precise location of the fastball
2) learn to change speeds(changeup, 2seamer)
3) breaking balls
If you go to the next stages to compensate lack of the earlier stage you are cheating. It will help the kid in the moment but hurt him in the long run.
I'm 40 yo. Growing up, I had very little adult guidance in sports. I taught myself how to throw a curve at about age 13. Not sure how good it was, but it did get batters out at that age. Back then, we pitched a lot of inning with very lttle regard tom pitch counts. I can honestly say that my eklbow did not hurt then and it doesn't hurt now.
With all of that being said, I would NEVER teach my 8 y/o son how to throw it. What is the proper age? I don't know.
"Smith corks it into right, down the line. It may go...........Go crazy folks! Go crazy! Jack Buck
How would you suggest enforcing this? It seems like it would be an impossible rule to enforce. I mean, it's not the type of thing you can just ban. Also, who will decide when a kid is ready to throw a curveball? Ask 10 different people about when a kid should be allowed to throw a hook and you'll probably get 7 or 8 different answers.I think not only from a standpoint of health but also pitcher development banning curves is a good thing.
If you don't think too good, don't think too much.
Ted Williams
[QUOTE=dominik;1575290]I think not only from a standpoint of health but also pitcher developement banning curves is a good thing.
[QUOTE]
I agree but it will never happen. And it could be enforced and doable; it's relatively easy to tell the difference between a breaking pitch and something else.
Any "laboratory" type of study regarding curves and their effects on an arm over a period of time is flawed because of the variables previously mentioned.
Bottom line: if the difference between winning and losing the big game depends on snapping off a bunch of curves then the kid will end up throwing the curves.
True, but what happens when kids start trying to throw other stuff? Would you only ban curveballs? Or would you ban everything else that moves like, say a slider? Don't get me wrong, I think it would be great, but I'm just wondering how it would work.
The only way I could see this happening would be if leagues expected people to be honest and throw only fastballs and changeups. But, we all know that there are people out there who would break the "circle of trust".
If you don't think too good, don't think too much.
Ted Williams
Banning breaking balls would be advantageous not to pitcher developement, but to developement of baserunning skills - because there'd be more kids getting hits.
I just asked my son, "Could you possibly throw an 85 pitch complete game throwing all fastballs?" His response, "Yeah, but you'd have bring a bag to carry my arm home in when it falls off!"
Mixing in some #2s isn't going to negatively effect a young pitcher's ability to spot his 2S FB. They either cannot, or they can with "some" degree of success.
My son is not what he calls, "In love with his curveball." Typically, he'll throw about as many as he throws 4Sers - enough to show them for effect. Then it's 2S and cutters (might be a slider, I don't really know the difference). His control is good, and he still needs an off speed pitch with movement. Such a mix is detrimental to developing as a pitcher?
The last game he pitched, he threw +/- 40% CB, +/- 20% each CU, 4S, and other (2S/cutters). 5.1 IP, 0 ER, 3 Hits***, 12 K, 1 BB.
*** The first 2 hits were off his 2S, the last hit came on 2 strike CB after fouling off a 2 strike FB and taking what should've been a called 3rd strike FB - the batter was sitting on CB come h*ll or high H2o and I've got to say he smoked it right back to the mound. If my son would've had a glove on his pitching hand too, he'd have thrown a 2 hitter.
Was the key to having a good day throwing a lot of CBs? No. Probably not as much as throwing more 4S FBs than usual and then the speed differential. He doesn't throw that many off-speed pitches and no way he's throwing that many plus FBs. Bottom line is this, he could EASILY throw 85 CBs. It'd be torturous at his age to throw 85 of his hottest FBs.....So, you probably don't have to guess what side of the fence I come down on with throwing breaking balls. A little devil's advocate anectodal evidence.
I mentioned this in another thread, but my legion coach (IL St's assistant coach) would not allow me to throw curveballs and other offspeed. I was a junkerballer throwing 72mph.
By the end of the summer I was hitting 80mph (added 4 more mph in college), and after going through some growing pains (hit around some), I learned that you can, in fact, get hitters out with location.
I don;t see how throwing 100 fastballs is going to be any more fatiguing on an arm than throwing 60/20/20 with 2 other pitches added to the mix.
I don't know about every other pitcher, but I threw my curveballs hard, prefering late/sharp break versus "big benders".
The thing I learned in college is [1] most hitters can recognize a curve a lay off it, and [2] umpires have some difficulty calling it for strikes consistently (where it catch vs. where it crosses the plate). I ended up trading it in for a cutter, and that turned out to be a good move. Hard/late movement is often better than slower/bigger break.
It was, however, kind of fun shaking the catcher off multiple times, with both of us knowing I had only one option if I wanted to stay in the game.
Best thing that ever happenned to me, and my career.
With young pitchers, we usually reserved the curveballs for 'certain hitters'. You can guess which ones.
The 'danger' with curveballs at a young age is either the pitcher or coach 'falling in love with it' or using it as their 'only trick' and either leading to an injury or failing to learn how to pitch.
Everything in moderation ... including moderation.
Ideally, pitchers will learn how to spot their FB and CU first, then introduce the curve. IMO, if one is able, getting through the order the first time with nothing but a FB and CU, and then introducing the curve, cutter, slider, etc the 2nd time through is ideal. Going for lots of k's early in the game or showing everything you have too often, makes the middle later innings just that more difficult to get through.
Interesting. When I was a youth, I spent my days outside pitching a tennis ball or baseball against a brick wall for hours on end. I'd bet money I threw 100 pitches a day, easily. I wasn;t practicing pitching, I was playing a "game" with me emulating Scott McGregor, Bob Knepper, and John Tudor.
I'd do that all day and then go play LL games at night.
I only had a sore arm one time in college, and I chalk that up to not being taught the purpose of a bullpen session and would "throw my balls off" (i.e., all 'game pitches') for 50-80 pitches per session (pretty much daily).
I've always had a 'rubber arm' and still do today (I'm a 'pitching machine' tossing BP). What I cannot figure out is if I was able to throw that much because of genetic factors or because I became acclimated to throwing that much (or some combo of the two).
What I do find challenging is catching 6 pitchers back-2-back-2-back in the bullpen. At 36, something weird is happening to my legs. *grin*
Maybe for everyone it isn't. I think that the studies are now going against what has been considered common knowledge that it is more fatiguing. In my son's case (he's 11), without any question whatsoever it is.
He recently started throwing a 12-6 curve that is way more effective. Prior to that, he was throwing more CUs. Clarify that, he'd throw more off-speed pitches (heavy on CUs) against teams with more hitters he felt that he had to throw a lot of plus FBs to. Let's face it, he's 11. No way he's going to face teams stacked with good hitters and not leave a few 2Sers "fence high." Hitting spots comes and goes. Let's put it this way, he's satisfied and thankful to have at least some ability to run 2S and cutters into and out of the strike zone. But it's not like he'd get with Ripley's if he were to have a game where he struggled to locate anything.
All else being equal, that's how he'd prefer to pitch. He threw a complete game 1 hit shut out this year where I don't think he threw a curve ball - almost all 2S / sliders. In his mind, this is his MO...heavy dose of 2S/sliders, occassionally show the 4S and CB/CU. So, I hear people saying throwing the duece stunts a kids ability or motivation to work on locating and I say, "What?"
In my son's case what it allows him to do is win with two completely different styles of pitching. One would be lots of plus FBs and lots of CBs (if you looked at him or watched him warmup - that's probably what you'd expect), or by mixing 4 or 5 pitches and more finness.
dominik, please give your definition of precision.
Is it hitting a 4sq in spot 90% of the time, hitting a 10sq in spot 50% of the time, or some other sized spot and percentage?
Angels can fly because they take themselves lightly.
I wholeheartedly disagree. The 2 pitches require significantly different mechanics, and anytime a P changes his mechanics, he’s increasing the odds that he’ll be unable to get the pitch where he wants it.
Well, FWIW, I hope he never runs into a coach who calls his pitches, and finds out he can throw a hook with any degree of accuracy.My son is not what he calls, "In love with his curveball." Typically, he'll throw about as many as he throws 4Sers - enough to show them for effect. Then it's 2S and cutters (might be a slider, I don't really know the difference). His control is good, and he still needs an off speed pitch with movement. Such a mix is detrimental to developing as a pitcher?
Depending on you’re idea of what a great curve is, I think you’re wrong.… Bottom line is this, he could EASILY throw 85 CBs. It'd be torturous at his age to throw 85 of his hottest FBs.....So, you probably don't have to guess what side of the fence I come down on with throwing breaking balls. A little devil's advocate anectodal evidence.
My idea of a great breaking ball, is one that breaks late, and the later the better. The only way to make that happen, is to throw it with as much velocity as possible. I’m gonna tell you, putting a lot of rotation on a ball, plus giving it lots of velocity, ain’t easy on the arm!
Now if the ball is gonna be a big loopy thing that has little speed so that most of the “down” break comes from gravity, I’ll agree that it’s not nearly as hard on the arm as an ol’ #1 FB. But, to get lots of rotations to make the ball break down with a higher velocity, it’s a different story.
Angels can fly because they take themselves lightly.
What's your reasoning for using such small "locations" to define "precision" when most coaches (& I'm sure pitchers) would be thrilled if the pitcher can "locate" the pitch to hit the exact target set by the catcher?
IOWs, I would think "precision" would be associated with the size of a catcher's glove . . . 1.12 The catcher may wear a leather mitt not more than thirty-eight inches in circumference, nor more than fifteen and one-half inches from top to bottom. . . . and the pitcher's ability to hit the glove without the catcher moving his hand to catch the ball.
If a HS pitcher could meet that criteria 40% of the time I'd be happy, 50% of the time I'd be ecstatic.
I’d do the same thing on the side of the house. Then I’d go to the other side where the driveway was, and play an entire game for both teams on defense with fly balls coming when I'd throw the ball against the curved portion of the chimney, and the grounders would come on the driveway that was made of 1” gravel, making for some really interesting bounces with a tennis ball!
Angels can fly because they take themselves lightly.
I've been coming to this and other baseball sites for about 18 months. Prior to that the thought of pitch counts, potential for injury, overuse, etc. never once occured to me when playing with my son.
At about 6 or 7 he started pitching in the backyard. When I remodeled, I made a naturally sloped pitching mound. In addition to going to the LL field once, sometimes twice a day to practice, he'd pitch every night. We'd watch a game on TV and just about every commercial break we'd head to the backyard and he'd throw 10 or 15 pitches. We did this 5 or 6 nights a week. Oh, and he played with his friends too.
He went through this sidearm phase. A couple people told me his arm would blow up, so that's when I started going online for injury information. I nearly soiled myself when I started reading discussions about overuse. I'm sure there were weeks that he threw more pitches than what was recommended for even older kids to throw in a year.
Since then we've dialed it down a notch or 12. He's very injury prone. Broken arm, fractured fingers twice, MCL, bruised hamstring (bad one), pulled hamstring. His orthopedist gave us one of those punch cards like at the coffee shops - I think his next trip is free. But, the first time we ever met him was just to talk about his arm and whether it was going to fall off. Evidentally it must have got blessed with Holy Water or something because the break and fractures were all on the glove hand. And, the orthopedist has said his pitching elbow is fine and concerned about future overuse, but about the past not so much.
Been a real eye-opener. Also been a good opportunity for him to be very serious about prevention.
His CB is u-tube quality and according to him is much less demanding on his arm than a 4S FB. Like I said, he throws it more often when he knows that he wants to throw a lot of plus FBs.
We're wondering if grip on the 4S makes a difference in fatigue (e.g. fingers across the big horseshoe or across the where the laces are close together?)
I think your son is in real danger of developing arm trouble based on what you have said. He may not "feel" that the curves are as stressful on his arm as fb's but he'll feel it on that last curve if his arm snaps.
Also, the "cutter" or slider has just as much potential to tear up his arm.
85 curves-for an 11 year old? Sorry to be hard but an 11 year old should throw 1 type of fb, a ch, and an occasional curve. Your son is a good pitcher now throwing all of the different pitches but he'd be better-and less likely to get hurt-if he simplified his stuff.
85 pitches are about 20-35 more pitches than I'd have an 11U throw period; regardless of what type they were. I hope he's at least getting five days rest between outings if he's throwing that much, and by rest, I don't mean going to SS the very next game to fire another 20 to 25 throws across the infield during plays in the game and warm ups between innings.
Shake, your son sounds like a wonderful player with a great attitude, I would hate for his career to be cut short for meaningless games up until HS in the big scheme of things, as I seen far more times than I care to, when it seems like he has great potential ahead of him.
Trouble with arm problems in young players is that many times they don't creep up on them, it's suddenly "BAM!!" and they got elbow/bicep (most often) or shoulder problems.
I'm not saying don't have him pitch, but just saying, save some of those throws for when the scouts are watching and taking notice.
Last edited by mudvnine; 07-28-2009 at 01:14 AM.
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