Here is a link to the last election.
The top two finishers in this election will complete the top 200 players list.
======================================
This is the official Roster of Voters who are eligible to vote in this election:
Brad Harris
dgarza
Freakshow
gman5431
jalbright
jjpm74
leecemark
mwiggins
Paul Wendt
Sockeye
STLCards2
If anyone else would like to join in and vote, go to the introductory thread and apply; you're in if there are no objections from any current voters. Also refer to that thread for a fuller understanding of the rules, especially posts #1, #24 and #28.
======================================
Each voter must do three things:
1) Rank these 18 players in order. As always, players should be ranked based on hall of fame criteria, the sum of all their contributions to the game. Exception: Players whom the hall of fame has (or will be) elected as managers or other contributors (McGraw, Griffith, Torre, Spalding, Rube Foster, etc.) should be ranked only on the contribution from their playing. Active players should be ranked on their value to date, not projecting them to how you think they will end up.:
2) Next to each name, mark Yes (Y) or No (N) in answer to this question: Can you tolerate this player being ranked among #199-213 on the all-time list?Code:Rank WARP1 WARP3 Peak WSh Peak 165 Sam Thompson S 61.1 65.5 7.5 236 24.6 144 Rafael Palmeiro 88.5 96.1 8.1 395 28.6 208 Ralph Kiner 47.6 47.9 7.2 242 31.0 168 Joe Start 33.3 40.2 4.3 182 Sammy Sosa 69.4 69.6 7.7 322 32.0 176 Rube Foster 198 Orlando Cepeda 67.2 65.1 7.2 310 29.0 203 Al Spalding 18.7 32.0 5.9 209 Tony Perez 75.7 69.1 6.8 349 29.2 211 Ezra Sutton 39.7 43.6 5.5 212 John Beckwith 66.1 6.5 316 27.4 215 Wes Ferrell 72.6 68.0 9.6 233 29.6 219 Elmer Flick 74.6 72.8 8.6 291 32.0 233 Will Clark 69.3 74.4 8.0 331 33.6 220 Lou Brock 61.4 54.4 5.6 348 28.6 224 Pud Galvin 40.0 47.4 7.3 403 46.8 228 Ichiro Suzuki 50.0 53.1 7.4 210 29.2 206 Andre Dawson 64.9 66.1 7.3 340 26.4
This is not quite the same as asking “Do you think this player belongs in this group?”; it’s not Yes or No based on your personal rankings. It’s more along the lines “Can you see a good argument for placing this player among the top 213 in history?”
A general guideline I would offer: if a player would be in the top half of your next ballot (#214-222 all-time), you should tolerate him here. Your mileage (and tolerance) may vary. As an aid to this, here are the next eight players that are assured of appearing on the next ballot:
3) Rank your top 8 players from this list of upcoming candidates. The top 7 from this runoff will earn a spot on the next ballot (assuming 15 are elected this time):Code:191 Fred McGriff 63.4 65.6 7.4 341 26.4 213 Heinie Groh 78.6 68.8 8.2 272 29.6 222 Kevin Brown 75.5 82.1 8.7 241 23.0 223 Joe McGinnity 54.6 56.1 8.7 269 34.8 225 Harry Stovey 60.6 56.1 6.3 265 26.2 226 Dwight Evans 71.4 70.5 6.7 347 27.0 227 Bobby Doerr 74.7 72.7 7.2 281 26.0 229 Dizzy Dean 49.2 54.8 8.5 181 29.0
========================================Code:216 Ken Boyer 60.8 62.0 6.8 279 26.8 197 Darrell Evans 65.6 62.1 6.2 363 28.4 199 Carlos Delgado 58.4 61.2 6.5 298 29.4 232 Keith Hernandez 69.9 69.1 7.7 311 29.2 221 Bill Freehan 66.7 57.6 6.5 268 27.6 231 Red Faber 66.8 68.1 7.0 292 26.2 218 Bill Foster 254 27.6 181 Rollie Fingers 53.2 32.2 4.2 188 16.2 230 Dickey Pearce 234 Bobby Wallace 80.2 72.8 7.0 345 24.4 235 Charlie Bennett 58.7 70.2 8.2 157 16.0 236 Roger Bresnahan 60.1 52.7 6.0 231 25.0 237 Larry Walker 63.0 63.8 6.4 311 26.6 238 Jim Edmonds 78.4 82.5 8.8 293 29.2 239 Jose Mendez 240 Dave Parker 61.5 58.5 7.6 327 31.2 241 Bill Terry 56.7 53.9 6.3 278 29.8 242 Stan Hack 73.3 74.4 7.5 316 29.6 243 Earl Averill 55.1 49.8 6.1 280 29.2 244 Chuck Klein 43.2 44.4 6.4 238 28.0 245 Pie Traynor 69.4 63.9 6.4 274 24.8 246 Monte Irvin 90.0 8.2 392 31.6 247 George Gore 65.0 76.6 8.1 250 25.0 248 Hardy Richardson 58.1 65.2 7.1 230 23.8
Notes on charts
--The first column is their rank on the 500 Player List, v1.0.
--Career totals of WARP1 and WARP3 from Baseball Prospectus. WARP was rescaled in late February, so it cannot be compared to prior WARP numbers.
--Average of Top 5 years in WARP3.
--Career total of Win Shares; unadjusted from the book.
--Average of Top 5 years in unadjusted Win Shares.
--Stats for Negro leaguers are adapted from their MLE’s at Baseballthinkfactory. Rube Foster compares favorably to the original Rube, Waddell. Comparisons to Dick Allen have kept John Beckwith out of the HOF. Bunning and Coveleski appear to be similar in value to Bill Foster.
--Win shares are not really designed to measure earlier players. The numbers shown for Galvin are likely to overrate him; OTOH, raw WS numbers for Thompson, Stovey, Gore, Richardson and Bennett are likely too low.
--Win shares for active players do not include the 2009 season.
========================================
It is helpful to me if you only list players by their last name on your ballot (or last name, first initial). If you want to change your ballot some time after it is first posted, make a post in this thread that you have done so. Balloting will continue until everyone has voted, but not more than two weeks. I will try to get the results up as soon after this as possible.
Discussion of the rankings, players and rules should take place in this thread. The Game is still On, so bring your arguments why you believe a player should be ranked higher or lower than he is on the 500 Player List.
======================================
So far, we've ranked the following players:
1. Babe Ruth, 2. Ty Cobb, 3. Willie Mays, 4. Honus Wagner, 5. Ted Williams, 6. Walter Johnson, 7. Hank Aaron, 8. Barry Bonds, 9. Stan Musial, 10. Mickey Mantle
11. Lou Gehrig, 12. Rogers Hornsby, 13. Tris Speaker, 14. Oscar Charleston, 15. Cy Young, 16. Mike Schmidt, 17. Eddie Collins, 18. Greg Maddux, 19. Josh Gibson, 20. Lefty Grove
21. Frank Robinson, 22. Joe Morgan, 23. Pete Alexander, 24. Roger Clemens, 25. Jimmie Foxx, 26. Joe DiMaggio, 27. Mel Ott, 28. Nap Lajoie, 29. Alex Rodriguez, 30. Johnny Bench
31. Rickey Henderson, 32. Eddie Mathews, 33. Tom Seaver, 34. Satchel Paige, 35. Pop Lloyd, 36. Warren Spahn, 37. Cap Anson, 38. George Brett, 39. Yogi Berra, 40. Christy Mathewson
41. Jackie Robinson, 42. Randy Johnson, 43. Dan Brouthers, 44. Ed Delahanty, 45. Cal Ripken, 46. Ken Griffey, Jr., 47. Kid Nichols, 48. Turkey Stearnes, 49. Arky Vaughan, 50. Carl Yastrzemski
51. Reggie Jackson, 52. Steve Carlton, 53. Smokey Joe Williams, 54. Frank Thomas, 55. Bob Feller, 56. Pete Rose, 57. Charlie Gehringer, 58. Mike Piazza, 59. Al Kaline, 60. Wade Boggs
61. Jeff Bagwell, 62. Sam Crawford, 63. Johnny Mize, 64. Bob Gibson, 65. Robin Yount, 66. Mickey Cochrane, 67. Roberto Clemente, 68. Duke Snider, 69. Tony Gwynn, 70. Rod Carew
71. Pedro Martinez, 72. Craig Biggio, 73. Carl Hubbell, 74. Buck Leonard, 75. Roy Campanella, 76. Hank Greenberg, 77. Frankie Frisch, 78. Harmon Killebrew, 79. Buck Ewing, 80. Paul Waner
81. Willie McCovey, 82. Roger Connor, 83. Martin Dihigo, 84. Eddie Murray, 85. Ernie Banks, 86. Robin Roberts, 87. Nolan Ryan, 88. Frank Baker, 89. King Kelly, 90. Gary Carter
91. Cristobal Torriente, 92. Billy Hamilton, 93. Gaylord Perry, 94. Al Simmons, 95. Chipper Jones, 96. Sandy Koufax, 97. Tim Raines, 98. Willie Stargell, 99. Phil Niekro, 100. Ryne Sandberg
101. Harry Heilmann, 102. Ed Walsh, 103. Ron Santo, 104. Mule Suttles, 105. Jesse Burkett, 106. Carlton Fisk, 107. Albert Pujols, 108. George Davis, 109. Roberto Alomar, 110. Eddie Plank
111. Jim Palmer, 112. Barry Larkin, 113. Bert Blyleven, 114. Joe Cronin, 115. Tim Keefe, 116. Mark McGwire, 117. John Clarkson, 118. Dick Allen, 119. Bullet Joe Rogan, 120. Jim O'Rourke
121. Paul Molitor, 122. Juan Marichal, 123. Whitey Ford, 124. George Wright, 125. Ivan Rodriguez, 126. Bill Dickey, 127. Dave Winfield, 128. Mordecai Brown, 129. Luke Appling, 130. Fergie Jenkins
131. Tom Glavine, 132. Gabby Hartnett, 133. Dazzy Vance, 134. Bill Dahlen, 135. Deacon White, 136. Manny Ramirez, 137. Gary Sheffield, 138. Mariano Rivera, 139. Paul Hines, 140. Joe Jackson
141. Alan Trammell, 142. Fred Clarke, 143. Billy Williams, 144. Larry Doby, 145. Ozzie Smith, 146. Bobby Grich, 147. Willie Wells, 148. Hal Newhouser, 149. Dennis Eckersley, 150. Louis Santop
151. Kirby Puckett, 152. Jim Thome, 153. Hoyt Wilhelm, 154. Curt Schilling, 155. Pee Wee Reese, 156. Amos Rusie, 157. Goose Goslin, 158. Derek Jeter, 159. Joe Medwick, 160. Jud Wilson
161. John Smoltz, 162. Brooks Robinson, 163. Minnie Minoso, 164. Rube Waddell, 165. Cool Papa Bell, 166. Mike Mussina, 167. Jimmy Collins, 168. Ross Barnes, 169. Richie Ashburn, 170. Lou Whitaker
171. Sherry Magee, 172. Zack Wheat, 173. Lou Boudreau, 174. Ted Lyons, 175. Ray Brown, 176. Ted Simmons, 177. Billy Herman, 178. Don Sutton, 179. Red Ruffing, 180. Max Carey
181. Enos Slaughter, 182. Don Drysdale, 183. Vladimir Guerrero, 184. Goose Gossage, 185. Jeff Kent, 186. Willie Keeler, 187. George Sisler, 188. John Ward, 189. Joe Gordon, 190. Jim Bunning
191. Stan Coveleski, 192. Pete Hill, 193. Bid McPhee, 194. Eppa Rixey, 195. Early Wynn, 196. Joe Torre, 197. Charley Radbourn, 198. Edgar Martinez
Last edited by Freakshow; 08-31-2009 at 08:55 AM. Reason: added Paul to electors
Eradicate, wipe out and abolish redundancy.
Ballot:
1. Joe Start Y
2. Pud Galvin Y
3. Lou Brock Y
4. Rube Foster Y
5. Ichiro Suzuki Y
6. Ezra Sutton Y
7. Orlando Cepeda Y
8. Ralph Kiner Y
9. Sam Thompson Y
10. John Beckwith Y
11. Will Clark Y
12. Tony Perez N
13. Wes Ferrell N
14. Elmer Flick N
15. Andre Dawson N
16. Al Spalding N
17. Sammy Sosa N
18. Rafael Palmeiro N
Runoff:
1. Pie Traynor
2. Keith Hernandez
3. Bobby Wallace
4. Charlie Bennett
5. Earl Averill
6. Roger Bresnahan
7. Bill Terry
8. Stan Hack
Researcher/advocate/mod
1. Ichiro
2. Beckwith
3. Sosa
4. Perez
5. Galvin
6. R. Foster
7. Brock
8. W. Ferrell
9. Cepeda
10. Flick
11. Dawson
12. Spalding
13. W. Clark
14. Sutton
15. Kiner
16. Start--everybody from here on up garners a "yes" vote
=============================================
17. Thompson--N
18. Palmiero--N
Runoff
1. Irvin
2. W. Foster
3. Hack
4. Mendez
5. Faber
6. Boyer
7. Parker
8. Wallace
Seen on a bumper sticker: If only closed minds came with closed mouths.
RIP Harry Kalas. Thanks for 38 great years, though I wish we could have had more.
1. Rafael Palmeiro
2. Sam Thompson
3. Al Spalding
4. Sammy Sosa
5. Ralph Kiner
6. Pud Galvin
7. Orlando Cepeda
8. Elmer Flick
9. Andre Dawson
10. Lou Brock
11. Ichiro Suzuki
12. Will Clark
13. Rube Foster
14. Tony Perez
15. John Beckwith - N
16. Wes Ferrell - N
17. Ezra Sutton - N
18. Joe Start - N
Run-Off
1. Chuck Klein
2. Bill Terry
3. Larry Walker
4. Earl Averill
5. Stan Hack
6. Jose Mendez
7. Dave Parker
8. Ken Boyer
Rankings
1. Rafael Palmeiro Y
2. Will Clark Y
3. Sammy Sosa Y
4. Elmer Flick Y
5. Pud Galvin Y
6. Orlando Cepeda Y
7. Tony Perez Y
8. Sam Thompson Y
9. Ralph Kiner Y
10. Andre Dawson Y
11. Lou Brock N
12. Wes Ferrell N
13. Ichiro Suzuki N
14. Ezra Sutton N
15. Al Spalding N
16. Joe Start N
17. Rube Foster N
18. John Beckwith N
Run off
1. Larry Walker
2. Keith Hernandez
3. Carlos Delgado
4. Jim Edmonds
5. Red Faber
6. Chuck Klein
7. Bill Terry
8. Stan Hack
Quote
"A ballplayer has to just go out and be mean. You can't play half-heartedly. If you do, there's someone right over your shoulder that'll take your job away. If you don't do your job, what they're paying you for, why should they pay you? You just can't put in eight hours, that's what a lot of people don't realize about athletes. Very few people realize the pressure." Dave Kingman
1 Lou Brock Y
2 Orlando Cepeda Y
3 Ichiro Suzuki Y
4 Rube Foster Y
5 Tony Perez Y
6 Ralph Kiner Y
7 Andre Dawson Y
8 Will Clark Y
9 Pud Galvin Y
10 Sam Thompson Y
11 Wes Ferrell Y
12 Elmer Flick Y
13 John Beckwith Y
14 Al Spalding Y
15 Rafael Pakmeiro N
16 Sammy Sosa N
17 Ezra Sutton N
18 Joe Start N
G Man
1 Monte Irvin
2 Dave Parker
3 Bill Terry
4 Pie Traynor
5 Jose Mendez
6 Bill Foster
7 Larry Walker
8 Ken Boyer
G Man
1. Thompson
2. Palmiero
3. Foster
4. Ferrell
5. Clark
6. Galvin
7. Dawson
8. Ichiro
9. Sosa
10. Start
11. Flick
12. Kiner N
13. Perez N
14. Cepeda N
15. Brock N
16. Sutton N
17. Beckwith N
18. Spalding N
1. Hack
2. Evans
3. Edmonds
4. Wallace
5. Walker
6. Faber
7. Terry
8. Mendez
1885 1886 1926 1931 1934 1942 1944 1946 1964 1967 1982 2006
1887 1888 1928 1930 1943 1968 1985 1987 2004
1996 2000 2001 2002 2005 2009
The Top 100 Pitchers In MLB History
1) Foster
2) Spaulding
3) Ichiro
4) Brock
5) Kiner
6) Dawson
7) Beckwith
8) Perez
9) Flick
10) Sutton
11) Galvin
12) Cepeda
13) Ferrell
14) Start
15) Clark
16) Thompson
17) Sosa
18) Palmerio
--Yes on all
1) Pearce
2) Freehan
3) Hernandez
4) Faber
5) Traynor
6) Boyer
7) Mendez
8) Irvin
--Very difficult to sort them out at this point
1 Palmeiro
2 Suzuki
3 Ferrell W
4 Flick
5 Clark W
6 Start
7 Sosa
8 Spalding
9 Galvin
10 Beckwith
11 Thompson S
12 Foster R
13 Sutton E
14 Dawson-N
15 Kiner-N
16 Perez-N
17 Cepeda-N
18 Brock-N
Runoff
1 Irvin
2 Foster W
3 Wallace
4 Gore
5 Hernandez
6 Edmonds
7 Hack
8 Faber
Eradicate, wipe out and abolish redundancy.
Registered User
ballot
1 Joe Start
2 Rafael Palmeiro
3 Ichiro Suzuki
4 Ezra Sutton
5 Elmer Flick
6 Pud Galvin
7 Al Spalding
8 John Beckwith
9 Will Clark
10 Rube Foster
11 Wes Ferrell
-------------------------- Yes/No
12 Ralph Kiner
13 Sammy Sosa
14 Andre Dawson
15 Sam Thompson
16 Lou Brock
17 Tony Perez
18 Orlando Cepeda
runoff
1 Monte Irvin, who certainly belongs in the two hundred
2 George Gore
3 Jim Edmonds
4 Charlie Bennett
5 Hardy Richardson
6 Darrell Evans
7 Larry Walker
8 Keith Hernandez
Starting from the current list of 198, I would complete the two hundred with Monte Irvin who is on the runoff ballot and perhaps Johan Santana who is not yet on the horizon.
Starting from scratch my two hundred would probably include at least five from the primary ballot and four from the runoff ballot (named here in black) plus Jack Glasscock, Grant Johnson, Heinie Groh, and Johan Santana.
There might be a few more, because I have a few empty lots, and the group might put some of my selections into the last two slots. My difference with the group would be 11 to 16 of two hundred. Of course I might make several revisions from day to day.
Last edited by Paul Wendt; 08-24-2009 at 01:10 PM.
We'll try and get this election wrapped up soon. Two voters have yet to check in:
Brad Harris
mwiggins
Hopefully we'll hear from them soon.
Eradicate, wipe out and abolish redundancy.
1. Foster
2. Kiner
3. Clark
4. Brock
5. Ichiro
6. Flick
7. Thompson
8. Ferrell
9. Dawson
10. Beckwith
11. Cepeda
-------no's from here on down------
12. Spaulding
13. Perez
14. Start
15. Sutton
16. Galvin
17. Palmeiro
18. Sosa
1. Hack
2. Irvin
3. Traynor
4. Terry
5. Evans
6. Freehan
7. Faber
8. Averill
Ichiro Suzuki and Rube Foster complete the list of the top 200 players in history.Code:Rank Pts Ave 1st No's 199 Ichiro Suzuki 328 5.2 1 1 200 Rube Foster 303 7.5 2 1 201 Pud Galvin 302 7.5 0 1 202 Will Clark 298 7.9 0 0 203 Elmer Flick 295 8.2 0 1 204 Rafael Palmeiro 290 8.6 3 4 205 Ralph Kiner 284 9.2 0 3 206 Wes Ferrell 280 9.5 0 3 207 Lou Brock 280 9.5 1 4 208 Sam Thompson 274 10.1 1 2 209 Joe Start 270 10.5 3 4 210 Andre Dawson 269 10.5 0 3 211 Al Spalding 268 10.6 0 4 212 John Beckwith 266 10.8 0 3 213 Orlando Cepeda 265 10.9 0 3 Carried over to next election Sammy Sosa 265 10.9 0 4 Tony Perez 258 11.5 0 5 Ezra Sutton 254 11.9 0 5 Runoff Winners Pts Bal 246 Monte Irvin 93 7 242 Stan Hack 79 7 237 Larry Walker 70 6 232 Keith Hernandez 68 6 241 Bill Terry 66 6 238 Jim Edmonds 62 5 231 Red Faber 61 6 Also-Ran 245 Pie Traynor 51 4 239 Jose Mendez 50 5 197 Darrell Evans 47 4 234 Bobby Wallace 46 4 247 George Gore 41 3 218 Bill Foster 38 3 216 Ken Boyer 36 4 235 Charlie Bennett 34 3 240 Dave Parker 32 3 243 Earl Averill 31 3 244 Chuck Klein 25 2 221 Bill Freehan 24 2 248 H. Richardson 20 2 230 Dickey Pearce 15 1 199 Carlos Delgado 13 1 236 Roger Bresnahan 10 1 181 Rollie Fingers 0 0
There were three big winners in this election. Will Clark broke the record for biggest gain, 31 places, from #233 to #202; Ichiro advanced 29 places, from #228 to #199; Pud Galvin was up 23 places, from #224 to #201.
There were four big losers: Rafael Palmeiro broke Cool Papa Bell's record for biggest fall, 60 spots from #144 to #204; Sam Thompson was down 43, from #165 to #208; Joe Start settled in 41 lower, from #168 to #209; Rube Foster clung to #200, down 24 places. Orlando Cepeda also slipped out of the top 200. Sammy Sosa continued his fall; he'll end up at least 32 spots lower.
The Runoff winners that will appear on the next ballot are Irvin, Hack, L. Walker, Hernandez, Terry, Edmonds and Faber. (Points are now calculated on a 15-14-13-12-11-10-9-8 basis.)
See you in election #20.
Last edited by Freakshow; 09-20-2009 at 08:36 PM.
Eradicate, wipe out and abolish redundancy.
professional whistler
Rankings
1. Joe Start
2. Rafael Palmeiro
3. Ichiro Suzuki
4. Will Clark
5. Ezra Sutton
6. Wes Ferrell
7. Elmer Flick
8. Pud Galvin
9. John Beckwith
10. Al Spalding
11. Rube Foster
12. Ralph Kiner
13. Sammy Sosa
14. Andre Dawson
15. Sam Thompson
16. Lou Brock
17. Orlando Cepeda
18. Tony Perez
Run Off
1. George Gore
2. Jim Edmonds
3. Larry Walker
4. Darrell Evans
5. Monte Irvin
6. Charlie Bennett
7. Hardy Richardson
8. Keith Hernandez
No matter what I talk about, I always get back to baseball." -- Connie Mack
Registered User
Ouch, Brad
IICC your weight would have been just enough to rearrange the bottom half of the field thoroughly.
It's good to see the latent support for Joe Start and George Gore but I was hoping to add my weight, not replace you.
I don't have a problem with counting Brad's ballot. I'll refigure the results in a little bit.Originally Posted by Paul Wendt
The question is, are these all Yesses, Brad? Or are there a few No's?
Eradicate, wipe out and abolish redundancy.
--He posted 6 hours after the results were up. He has no reason to expect that vote to be counted. How about you get the next poll up instead of refiguring the completed one.
I understand where you're coming from. But I had it refigured before you posted this and just now got around to posting the revised results.
My general approach is the more voices we hear from the better the results. Brad's ballot resulted in a couple minor changes. Start and Beckwith are now on the list, while Sosa is off; Edmonds joins the runoff winners.
Next election up shortly.
Last edited by Freakshow; 08-31-2009 at 08:38 AM.
Eradicate, wipe out and abolish redundancy.
View Profile
View Forum Posts
View Blog Entries
View Articles
Reply With Quote
Visit Homepage
