15th Greatest Pitcher: Can Carlton beat Smokey Joe Williams?

[Bill Burgess]

Congratulations to Cards' twirler Bob Gibson for winning our 14th Greatest Pitcher Poll! He scored 55 points from our 18 voters, including 5 first place votes. The great Smokey Joe Wood amassed 50 points for second place, picking up 6 first place votes for himself along the way.

Kid Nichols brought up 3rd place, for the 2nd round in a row.

The 15th round for Greatest Pitcher series is now open. Round 15 will end when we receive 20 ballots, however long that takes us.

1. Walter Johnson
2. Greg Maddux
3. Cy Young
4. Lefty Grove
5. Pete Alexander
6. Christy Mathewson
7. Tom Seaver
8. Roger Clemens
9. Randy Johnson
10. Warren Spahn
11. Satchel Paige
12. Pedro Martinez
13. Bob Feller
14. Bob Gibson
15.

As per our usual, please consider everything. Counting totals, rate stats, relative stats, peak, longevity, special skills, awards/opinions, intangibles, team support/lack of support, special circumstances, time missed for war/injuries, etc.

We are now ONLY voting for the 15th Greatest. Please submit your ballot with your next Top 5 Pitchers. As the winner of Round 14, Bob Gibson is now eliminated from further consideration. Negro Leaguers are eligible.

Here is how Round 1 broke down.---31 voters

-----Johnson------Maddux--Matty-Alexander-Young---Grove---Clemens--Nichols-Spahn-Feller-Koufax-Seaver-Martinez-Rivera-N.Ryan
1.----110 pts(22)---25(5)------0-----0-------5(1)-----10(2)-----0--------0-----0------5(1)-----0----0-------0-------0------0
2. ---24(6)---------24(6)---16(4)---4(1)----12(3)-----28(7)----8(2)-------0-----0-------0----4(1)----0-------0-------0------0 
3.-----6(2)---------15(5)----3(1)--18(6)-----9(3)-----18(6)-----0-------3(1)---6(2)-----0------0-----0-------0-------0-----6(2)
4. -----2(1)--------10(5)----2(1)--10(5)----16(8)------8(4)----10(5)------0-----0-------0-----2(1)---0-------0-------0------0
5.------0------------4(4)----1(1)---6(6)-----4(4)------4(4)------0--------0----1(1)----1(1)---2(2)--1(1)----1(1)-----2(2)----0
Totals-142-----------78-------22----38-------46-------68-------18-------3-----7-------6-------8----1-------1-------2------6

1. Walter Johnson - 142 (22)
2. Greg Maddux - 78 (5)
3. Lefty Grove - 68 (2)
4. Cy Young - 46 (1)
4. Pete Alexander - 38
6. Christy Mathewson - 22
7. Roger Clemens - 18
8. Sandy Koufax - 8
9. Warren Spahn - 7
9. Bob Feller - 6 (1)
11. Nolan Ryan - 6
11. Kid Nichols - 3
12. Mariano Rivera - 2
13. Tom Seaver - 1
13. Pedro Martinez - 1
------------------------------------------------------------------------
Here is how Round 2 broke down.---24 voters

1. Greg Maddux - 78(11)
2. Lefty Grove - 71(7)
3. Cy Young - 58(2)
4. Pete Alexander - 46(1)
5. Christy Mathewson - 31(2)
6. Roger Clemens - 20(1)
7. Warren Spahn - 9
8. Nolan Ryan - 7
9. Bob Feller - 5
9. Tom Seaver - 5
9. Randy Johnson - 5 
12. Pedro Martinez - 4
13. Bob Gibson - 3
13. Mariano Rivera - 3
15. Satchel Paige - 2
16. Smokey Joe Williams - 1
16. Kid Nichols - 1
16. Curt Schilling - 1
------------------------------
Fine Breakdown: Round 2:
------------------------------1st-----2nd-----3rd-----4th-----5th
1. Greg Maddux--------------55(11)--20(5)----3(1)----0--------0
2. Lefty Grove --------------35(7)---12(3)----18(6)---4(2)-----2(2)
3. Cy Young-----------------10(2)---16(4)----18(6)--12(6)----2(2)
4. Pete Alexander--------------5(1)--20(5)----12(4)---4(2)----5(5)
5. Christy Mathewson----------10(2)-8(2)------6(2)---4(2)----3(3)
6. Roger Clemens---------------5(1)--8(2)-----3(1)----2(1)---2(2)
7. Warren Spahn-----------------0---4(1)-----3(1)-----0-----2(1) 
8. Nolan Ryan--------------------0---4(1)------0------2(1)---1(1)
9. Bob Feller---------------------0-----0-------0------4(2)---1(1)
9. Tom Seaver-------------------0-----0-------3(1)--2(1)-----0 
9. Randy Johnson----------------0-----0-------3(1)--2(1)-----0  
12. Pedro Martinez---------------0----4(1)------0-----0-------0
13. Bob Gibson-------------------0-----0-------0-----2(1)----1(1)
13. Mariano Rivera---------------0------0------0-----2(1)-----1(1)
15. Satchel Paige----------------0------0------0-----2(1)------0 
16. Smokey Joe Williams----------0------0------0------0-------1(1)
16. Kid Nichols-------------------0------0------0------0-------1(1) 
16. Curt Schilling-----------------0------0------0------0-------1(1)

Round 3:---19 voters

1. Cy Young - 66(5)
2. Lefty Grove - 57(5)
3. Pete Alexander - 54(3)
4. Christy Mathewson - 40
5. Tom Seaver - 28(1)
6. Roger Clemens - 18(2)
7. Randy Johnson - 13(1)
8. Satchel Paige - 8
9. Bob Feller - 5
9. Mariano Rivera - 5
11. Warren Spahn - 4
11. Nolan Ryan - 4
13. Sandy Koufax - 3
14.  Steve Carlton- 2
14. Bob Gibson - 2
16. Curt Schilling - 1
16. Pedro Martinez - 1
16. Rube Foster - 1

Here's the breakdown.

-----------------------1st------2nd-----3rd------4th------5th
1. Cy Young----------25(5)-----20(5)----15(5)----6(3)------0
2. Lefty Grove--------25(5)-----24(6)-----3(1)----4(2)------1(1)
3. Pete Alexander-----15(3)-----16(4)----18(6)----4(2)------1(1)
4. Christy Mathewson-10(2)-----16(4)-----3(1)----8(4)------3(3)
5. Tom Seaver--------5(1)------4(1)------9(3)----6(3)------4(4)
6. Roger Clemens-----10(2)-----4(1)-------0------2(1)------2(2)
7. Randy Johnson------5(1)------0--------3(1)-----0--------5(5)
8. Satchel Paige--------0--------0--------6(2)-----2(1)------0
9. Bob Feller------------0--------0-------3(1)-----2(1)-------0
10. Warren Spahn-------0-------0---------0-------2(1)------2(2)
10. Nolan Ryan----------0------4(1)-------0-------0---------0
13. Sandy Koufax-------0-------0---------3(1)-----0---------0
14. Bob Gibson----------0-------0---------0-------2(1)------0
14. Steve Carlton-------0--------0---------0------2(1)------0
16. Pedro Martinez------0--------0---------0-------0--------1(1)
16. Curt Schilling--------0--------0---------0-------0--------1(1)
16. Rube Foster---------0--------0---------0-------0--------1(1)
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Round 4.---21 voters

1. Lefty Grove - 73(9)
2. Pete Alexander - 61(4)
3. Christy Mathewson - 48(2)
4. Tom Seaver - 31(2)
5. Roger Clemens - 28(3)
6. Randy Johnson - 17
7. Satchel Paige - 15
8. Pedro Martinez - 13
9. Joe Williams - 6
10. Sandy Koufax - 5
11. Warren Spahn - 4
11. Bob Feller - 4
13. Steve Carlton - 2
14. Bob Caruthers - 1
14. Kid Nichols - 1
14. Rube Foster

Here's the fine breakdown.

--------------------------1st----2nd-----3rd----4th----5th
1. Lefty Grove-----------45(9)---16(4)---6(2)---6(3)----0
2. Pete Alexander--------20(4)---24(6)---9(3)---6(3)---2(2)
3. Christy Mathewson----10(2)----8(2)--24(8)---4(2)---2(2)
4. Tom Seaver-----------10(2)---12(3)---3(1)---4(2)---2(2)
5. Roger Clemens---------15(3)----0------9(3)---2(1)---2(2)
6. Randy Johnson----------0------4(1)-----0----10(5)---3(3)
7. Satchel Paige-----------0------8(2)----3(1)----0-----4(4)
8. Pedro Martinez---------5(1)----8(2)-----0------0------0
9. Joe Williams-------------0------4(1)-----0-----2(1)----0
10. Sandy Koufax----------0--------0-----3(1)---2(1)----0
11. Warren Spahn----------0--------0------0-----2(1)---2(2)
11. Bob Feller--------------0--------0-----3(1)----0-----1(1)
13. Steve Carlton----------0--------0------0-----2(1)----0
14. Bob Caruthers----------0--------0------0------0----1(1)
14. Kid Nichols-------------0--------0------0------0----1(1)
14. Rube Foster------------0--------0------0------0----1(1)
--------------------------------------------------------------------------
Round 5.  19 voters.

1. Pete Alexander - 65(7)
2. Tom Seaver - 50(6)
3. Christy Mathewson - 39(2)
4. Randy Johnson - 32
5. Satchel Paige - 31(2)
6. Roger Clemens - 21(1)
7. Warren Spahn - 14
8. Bob Feller - 7
9. Kid Nichols - 6
10. Pedro Martinez - 5(1)
11. Joe Williams - 4
12. Bob Gibson - 3
13. Steve Carlton - 2
14. Bob Caruthers - 1
14. Sandy Koufax - 1
-------------------------------------------- 
The fine breakdown.  
-----------------------1st----2nd----3rd---4th---5th
1. Pete Alexander-----35(7)--24(6)---6(2)---0-----0
2. Tom Seaver--------30(6)---8(2)---6(2)--6(3)---0
3. Christy Mathewson-10(2)---8(2)--12(4)--8(4)--1(1)
4. Randy Johnson-------0------8(2)--15(5)--6(3)--3(3)
5. Satchel Paige------10(2)---8(2)---6(2)--6(3)--1(1)
6. Roger Clemens------5(1)---8(2)---3(1)--4(2)--1(1) 
7. Warren Spahn-------0-----4(1)---3(1)---0----7(7)
8. Bob Feller-----------0-----4(1)----0----2(1)--1(1) 
9. Kid Nichols----------0-------0----3(1)--2(1)--1(1) 
10. Pedro Martinez----5(1)-----0-----0-----0-----0
11. Joe Williams--------0-------0-----0---2(1)--1(1)
12. Bob Gibson---------0-------0----3(1)--0-----0 
13. Steve Carlton------0-------0-----0---2(1)---0
14. Bob Caruthers------0-------0-----0----0----1(1) 
14. Sandy Koufax-------0------0-----0----0----1(1)

Round 6. ---20 voters.

1. Christy Mathewson - 65
2. Tom Seaver - 59
3. Randy Johnson - 35
4. Roger Clemens - 28
4. Warren Spahn - 28
6. Satchel Paige - 27
6. Pedro Martinez - 27
8. Smokey Joe Williams - 8
9. Bob Feller - 6
9. Kid Nichols - 6
11. Sandy Koufax - 4
12. Bob Gibson - 3
13. Steve Carlton - 2
14. Bob Caruthers - 1
14. Mordecai Brown - 1

The fine breakdown.
-------------------------------1st-----2nd-----3rd-----4th-----5th-----Total
Christy Mathewson-------------7(35)---4(16)---2(6)----2(4)----4(4)-----65
Tom Seaver--------------------7(35)---3(12)---1(3)----3(6)----3(3)-----59
Randy Johnson-------------------0-----5(20)---3(9)----2(4)----2(2)-----35
Roger Clemens-----------------2(10)---1(4)----4(12)-----0-----2(2)-----28
Warren Spahn-------------------0-----1(4)----4(12)---5(10)----2(2)----28
Satchel Paige--------------------0-----3(12)---3(9)----3(6)-----0-------27
Pedro Martinez-----------------3(15)---1(4)----1(3)----2(4)----1(1)-----27
Smokey Joe Williams-------------0------0-------1(3)----2(4)----1(1)-----8
Bob Feller----------------------1(5)----0--------0-------0------1(1)-----6
Kid Nichols----------------------0------1(4)------0-------0-----2(2)-----6
Sandy Koufax-------------------0------1(4)------0-------0-------0------4
Bob Gibson----------------------0-------0------1(3)------0------0-------3
Steve Carlton-------------------0-------0-------0-------1(2)-----0------2
Bob Caruthers-------------------0------0--------0--------0-----1(1)-----1
Mordecai Brown-----------------0-------0-------0---------0----1(1)-----1
--------------------------------------------------------------------------
Round 7.---Round 7

---------------------1st-----2nd----3rd-----4th------5th-----Totals
1. Tom Seaver------30(6)---24(6)--12(4)---2(1)----4(4)-------72
2. Warren Spahn----10(2)---24(6)---9(3)--12(6)------0--------55
3. Roger Clemens----35(7)----8(2)----0-----4(2)----6(6)-------53
4. Satchel Paige-----20(4)---12(4)--12(4)----0-------0--------48
5. Randy Johnson----5(1)----8(2)---15(3)---4(2)----2(2)-------34
6. Pedro Martinez----5(1)----4(1)----3(1)----6(3)-----0--------18
7. Bob Gibson---------0-----4(1)-----3(1)----4(2)---1(1)-------13
8. Sandy Koufax------0-------0------9(3)-----0------1(1)------10
9. Kid Nichols---------5(1)----0-------0------2(1)-----0---------7
10. Bob Feller---------0-------0-------0------2(1)----3(3)-------5
11. Nolan Ryan--------0-------0-------0------2(1)----1(1)-------3
11. Steve Carlton-----0--------0------0--------0-----3(3)-------3
13. Amos Rusie-------0---------0------0------2(1)------0--------2
13. Ed Walsh---------0---------0------0------2(1)------0--------2
13. Joe Rogan--------0---------0------0------2(1)------0--------2
-------------------------------------------------------------------
Round 8.---Round 8.


	
	
Fname		Lname		First	Second	Third	Fourth	Fifth	Total
Roger		Clemens		9	1	2	5	0	65
Randy		Johnson		1	4	7	1	2	46
Warren		Spahn		2	5	4	1	1	45
Satchel		Paige		3	6	0	2	1	44
Pedro		Martinez	3	1	1	2	2	28
Bob		Feller		0	0	1	3	5	14
Sandy		Koufax		1	2	0	0	1	14
Kid		Nichols		1	0	0	3	3	14
Bob		Gibson		0	1	1	0	2	9
Smokey Joe	Williams	0	0	2	1	0	8
Steve		Carlton		0	0	0	1	1	3
Nolan		Ryan		0	0	1	0	0	3
Mariano		Rivera		0	0	0	1	0	2
Whitey		Ford		0	0	0	0	1	1
Juan		Marichal	0	0	0	0	1	1

Round 9.---Round 9

Fname		Lname		First	Second	Third	Fourth	Fifth	Total
Randy		Johnson		5	5	3	3	1	61
Warren		Spahn		3	8	3	2	0	60
Satchel		Paige		7	3	3	1	0	58
Pedro		Martinez	4	3	2	3	1	45
Kid		Nichols		1	1	4	1	7	30
Bob		Feller		1	0	2	5	2	23
Bob		Gibson		0	0	1	2	4	11
Steve		Carlton		0	0	0	3	1	7
Smokey Joe	Williams	0	0	2	0	0	6
Mariano		Rivera		0	1	0	0	0	4
Sandy		Koufax		0	0	1	0	0	3
Juan		Marichal	0	0	0	0	2	2
Amos		Rusie		0	0	0	1	0	2
Three Finger	Brown		0	0	0	0	1	1
Carl		Hubbell		0	0	0	0	1	1
Nolan		Ryan		0	0	0	0	1	1

Round 10.

Fname		Lname		First	Second	Third	Fourth	Fifth	Total
Warren		Spahn		9	5	3	1	1	77
Satchel		Paige		8	4	1	0	0	59
Pedro		Martinez	3	3	3	1	1	39
Bob		Feller		1	1	5	3	1	31
Kid		Nichols		0	4	0	6	2	30
Bob		Gibson		0	1	3	4	5	26
Steve		Carlton		0	0	2	3	0	12
Sandy		Koufax		0	2	1	0	1	12
Smokey Joe	Williams	0	1	2	0	0	10
Carl		Hubbell		0	0	1	1	2	7
Amos		Rusie		0	0	1	1	0	5
Juan		Marichal	0	0	0	0	4	4
Nolan		Ryan		0	0	0	1	1	3
Three Finger	Brown		0	0	0	0	2	2
Tim		Keefe		0	0	0	0	1	1

Round 11.

Fname		Lname		First	Second	Third	Fourth	Fifth	Total
Satchel		Paige		10	4	1	0	0	69
Pedro		Martinez	3	6	1	1	2	46
Bob		Feller		3	2	6	0	3	44
Kid		Nichols		3	1	4	2	4	39
Bob		Gibson		0	2	2	6	3	29
Carl		Hubbell		0	1	2	2	3	17
Steve		Carlton		0	2	2	1	0	16
Smokey Joe	Williams	1	1	1	0	0	12
Sandy		Koufax		0	1	0	1	1	7
Three Finger	Brown		0	0	0	2	2	6
Nolan		Ryan		0	0	1	1	0	5
Juan		Marichal	0	0	0	2	0	4
Tim		Keefe		0	0	0	1	1	3
Eddie		Plank		0	0	0	1	0	2
Gaylord		Perry		0	0	0	0	1	1

Round 12.

Fname		Lname		First	Second	Third	Fourth	Fifth	Total
Pedro		Martinez	8	3	0	3	1	59
Bob		Feller		5	6	0	2	4	57
Bob		Gibson		1	5	4	5	1	48
Kid		Nichols		3	1	4	3	2	39
Steve		Carlton		0	2	2	3	2	22
Carl		Hubbell		0	0	5	1	1	18
Smokey Joe	Williams	1	1	1	2	0	16
Sandy		Koufax		0	1	1	0	2	9
Three Finger	Brown		1	0	0	0	3	8
Tim		Keefe		0	1	0	1	1	7
Juan		Marichal	0	0	2	0	0	6
Bob		Caruthers	1	0	0	0	0	5
Nolan		Ryan		0	0	1	0	0	3
Eddie		Plank		0	0	0	0	2	2
Gaylord		Perry		0	0	0	0	1	1

Round 13

Fname		Lname		First	Second	Third	Fourth	Fifth	Total
Bob		Feller		6	2	3	3	3	56
Bob		Gibson		3	4	4	2	4	51
Kid		Nichols		5	1	3	3	1	45
Carl		Hubbell		0	4	1	3	3	28
Steve		Carlton		0	3	3	1	1	24
Smokey Joe	Williams	2	1	2	0	4	24
Sandy		Koufax		0	4	1	0	0	19
Three Finger	Brown		2	1	0	1	1	17
Juan		Marichal	0	0	2	1	1	9
Nolan		Ryan		1	0	0	0	1	6
Ed		Walsh		1	0	0	0	1	6
Whitey		Ford		0	0	0	2	0	4
Tim		Keefe		0	0	0	2	0	4
Addie		Joss		0	0	1	0	0	3
Mariano		Rivera		0	0	0	1	0	2
Robin		Roberts		0	0	0	1	0	2
Bob		Caruthers	0	0	0	0	0	0
Gaylord		Perry		0	0	0	0	0	0
Eddie		Plank		0	0	0	0	0	0

Round 14

Fname		Lname		First	Second	Third	Fourth	Fifth	Total
Bob		Gibson		5	3	3	4	1	55
Smoky Joe	Williams	6	1	3	3	1	50
Kid		Nichols		3	4	3	0	2	42
Steve		Carlton		1	3	3	0	3	29
Carl		Hubbell		0	1	3	4	2	23
Juan		Marichal	0	2	1	0	2	13
Three Finger	Brown		1	1	1	0	0	12
Sandy		Koufax		0	2	1	0	1	12
Whitey		Ford		0	1	0	1	0	6
Mariano		Rivera		1	0	0	0	1	6
Nolan		Ryan		1	0	0	0	1	6
Robin		Roberts		0	0	0	2	0	4
Phil		Niekro		0	0	0	1	1	3
Tim		Keefe		0	0	0	1	0	2
Jim		Palmer		0	0	0	1	0	2
Gaylord		Perry		0	0	0	1	0	2
John		Clarkson	0	0	0	0	1	1
Amos		Rusie		0	0	0	0	1	1
Johan		Santana		0	0	0	0	1	1

[Bill Burgess]

Pitchers Form Chart:

Pre - 1900: Tim Keefe, John "Monte" Ward, Bob Caruthers, John Clarkson, Jim "Pud" Galvin, Mickey Welch, Sadie McMahon, Jim McCormick, Charlie "Old Hoss" Radbourne, Amos Rusie, Jim Whitney, Larry Corcoran, Clark Griffith, Al Spalding, Kid Nichols, Charlie Ferguson, Tony Mullane, Silver King, Bobby Mathews, Tommy Bond, Jim Creighton, Gus Weyhing, Jack Stivetts, Will White, Ted Breitenstein, Adonis Terry, Will White, Charlie Buffington, Bill Hutchison, Guy Hecker, Terry Larkin, George Bradley, Fred Goldsmith, Ed Morris, Dave Foutz, Toad Ramsey, Jim Devlin, Matt Kilroy, Ben Sanders, Elton Chamberlain.

1900-1930: Rube Waddell, Mordecai Brown, Addie Joss, Ed Walsh, Eddie Plank, Joe McGinnity, Chief Bender, Ed Reulbach, Nap Rucker, Wilbur Cooper, Deacon Phillippe, Dazzy Vance, Stan Coveleski, Herb Pennock, Carl Mays, Ed Cicotte, Bill Dinneen, Ted Lyons, Eppa Rixey, Vic Willis, Hippo Vaughn, Dutch Leonard, Urban Shocker, Burleigh Grimes, Doc White, Nick Altrock, Sam Jones, Jack Coombs, Joe Wood, Jack Chesbro, Jim Bagby, Bullet Joe Bush, Waite Hoyt, Red Faber, Bob Shawkey, Ray Caldwell, Ray Collins, George Mogridge, Earl Hamilton, George Uhle, Eddie Rommel, Dolph Luque.

1930-1960: Dizzy Dean, Carl Hubbell, Whitey Ford, Robin Roberts, Wes Ferrell, Bob Lemon, Lefty Gomez, Hal Newhouser, Red Ruffing, Bucky Walters, Early Wynn, Billy Pierce, Don Newcombe, Tommy Bridges, Lon Warneke, Mel Harder, Bob Turley, Harry Breechen and Bobby Shantz.

1960-1980: Nolan Ryan, Gaylord Perry, Steve Carlton, Sandy Koufax, Juan Marichal, Phil Niekro, Jim "Catfish" Hunter, Ferguson Jenkins, Wilbur Wood, Don Drysdale, Jim Bunning, Mickey Lolich, Luis Tiant, Sparky Lyle, Tommy John, Jim Kaat, Dave Stieb, Bert Blyleven, Lew Burdette, Curt Simmons, Harvey Haddix, Johnny Antonelli, Vern Law, Bob Purkey, Johnny Podres, Joe Nuxhall, Ron Perranoski, Bob Veale, Dick Ellsworth, Jim Maloney, Chris Short, Bob Friend, Jim Palmer, Milt Pappas, Jerry Koosman, Dock Ellis, Sam McDowell, Jim 'Mudcat' Grant.

1980-Present: Curt Schilling, Jack Morris, Kevin Brown, John Smoltz, Mike Mussina, Tom Glavine.

Negro Leagues:
"Smokey Joe" Williams, (1905-1932)
Wilbur "Bullet Joe" Rogan, (1917-1938)
"Cannonball" Dick Redding, (1911-1938)
Dave Brown, (1918-1925)
Andrew "Rube" Foster, (1902-1926)
Bill 'Willie' Foster, (1923-1938)
Ray Brown (1930-1948)
Hilton Smith (1932-1948
Jesse 'Nip" Winters (1920-1933)
Will 'Cannonball' Jackman (1925-1936)
Jose Mendez (1908-1926)
John Donaldson (1913-1934)
Walter Ball (1903-1923)

[Bill Burgess]

My Slate of Candidates for this round. Numbers following indicate where Bill James ranked them in 2001.

1. Smokey Joe Williams, 13
2. Juan Marichal 21
3. Mordecai Brown 15
4. Nolan Ryan 24
5. Addie Joss 80

Next up.

Amos Rusie 28
Rube Waddell
Sandy Koufax 12
Steve Carlton 15
Eddie Plank
"Bullet Joe" Rogan (Neg L)
Dazzy Vance

Might I persuade any of you guys to consider voting in our other polls?

11th Greatest Hitter

36th Greatest Player

Wagner/Mays?

I would consider it a great favor if you did.

[Greg Maddux's Biggest Fan]

Nichols
Ford
Hubbell
Carlton
Palmer

[STLCards2]

1. Steve Carlton
2. Kid Nichols
3. Joe Williams
4. Gaylord Perry
5. Nolan Ryan

[ItsOnlyGil]

1. Brown
2. Keefe
3. Ford
4. Joss
5. Rogan

[AstrosFan]

S J Williams
Nichols
Carlton
Hubbell
Roberts

[Surf-Bat]

Mordecai "Three Finger" Brown
Carl Hubbell
SJ Williams
Juan Marichal
Whitey Ford

[538280]

1. Steve Carlton
2. Smokey Joe Williams
3. Kid Nichols
4. Gaylord Perry
5. Robin Roberts

[leecemark]

1) Steve Carlton
2) Kid Nichols
3) Sandy Koufax
4) Smokey Joe Williams
5) Robin Roberts
--on deck, Carl Hubbell

[Paul Wendt]

1. Joe Williams
2. Kid Nichols
3. Phil Niekro
4. Steve Carlton
5. John Clarkson

Gaylord Perry?
By ERA+, Perry beat Niekro and Carlton by two points over their full careers (1-3 with rounding error). Over their best 4800 innings the margin is only one point (0-2 with rounding error): Perry 121, Niekro and Carlton 120.

DERA estimates that Carlton enjoyed slightly better fielding support than Perry (average), both much better than Niekro. As batters Carlton was far superior to Perry with Niekro in the middle. Those margins are enough that Niekro > Carlton > Perry by WARP. The batting evidence is clear and going halfway with Davenport on fielding support is enough to bump Niekro to the top.

[PVNICK]

Steve Carlton
Juan Marichal
Smokey Joe Williams
Kid Nichols
John Clarkson


Niekro, Keefe, Koufax, Hubbell, 3-Finger are coming up
Roberts who I thought would be here, is a tad premature and certainly can't be ahead of Niekro for career value.

[Eastvanmungo]

1. Smokey Joe Williams
2. Kid Nicholls
3. Carl Hubbell
4. Sandy Koufax
5. Steve Carlton

[Paul Wendt]

... As per our usual, please consider everything. Counting totals, rate stats, relative stats, peak, longevity, special skills, awards/opinions, intangibles, team support/lack of support, special circumstances, time missed for war/injuries, etc.

... special skills ... special circumstances ...

I'm not certain what it means but it does imply to me something other than "Most Valuable Pitcher". Probably it makes sense to rank Bob Caruthers, Hoyt Wilhelm, and Mariano Rivera much higher than their career pitching value.

[KCGHOST]

Nichols
Hubbell
Keefe
Rusie
Marichal

[RyanExpress30]

1 Ryan
2 Koufax
3 Carlton
4 Rivera
5 Ford

[Blackout]

Smokey Joe Williams
Mariano Rivera
Johan Santana
Whitey Ford
THree Finger Brown

[BigRon]

1. Steve Carlton
2. Kid Nichols
3. Carl Hubbell
4. Juan Marichal
5. Phil Niekro

[Domenic]

01. Nichols
02. Hubbell
03. Carlton
04. Brown
05. Marichal

[nerfan]

1. Steve Carlton
2. Smokey Joe Williams
3. Kid Nichols
4. Robin Roberts
5. Gaylord Perry

[AstrosFan]

We have received 16 ballots so far. Can Carlton take Smokey Joe Williams?

What makes you think either of those two are ahead?

[Bill Burgess]

What makes you think either of those two are ahead?

Marketing. I'm trying to drum up interest.

[CTaka]

1. Kid Nichols
2. Steve Carlton
3. Carl Hubbell
4. Smokey Joe Williams
5. Juan Marichal

[Captain Cold Nose]

1. Kid Nichols
2. Smokey Joe Williams
3. Three-Finger Brown
4. Carl Hubbell
5. Steve Carlton

[Bill Burgess]

We have our 20 ballots. Judson, if you would, please.