The Collaboration Game v2.0 – A New Ranking: Election #20

[Freakshow]

Here is a link to the last election.

Note that we are now voting for 9 (NINE) players in the run-off, rather than 8.
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This is the official Roster of Voters who are eligible to vote in this election:

Brad Harris
dgarza
Freakshow
gman5431
jalbright
jjpm74
John Shoemaker
leecemark
mwiggins
Paul Wendt
Sockeye
STLCards2

If anyone else would like to join in and vote, go to the introductory thread and apply; you're in if there are no objections from any current voters. Also refer to that thread for a fuller understanding of the rules, especially posts #1, #24 and #28.
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Each voter must do three things:

1) Rank these 18 players in order. As always, players should be ranked based on hall of fame criteria, the sum of all their contributions to the game. Exception: Players whom the hall of fame has (or will be) elected as managers or other contributors (McGraw, Griffith, Torre, Spalding, Rube Foster, etc.) should be ranked only on the contribution from their playing. Active players should be ranked on their value to date, not projecting them to how you think they will end up.:

Rank			        WARP1	WARP3	Peak	WSh	Peak
182	Sammy	Sosa		69.4	69.6	7.7	322	32.0
209	Tony	Perez		75.7	69.1	6.8	349	29.2
211	Ezra	Sutton		39.7	43.6	5.5		
191	Fred	McGriff		63.4	65.6	7.4	341	26.4
213	Heinie	Groh		78.6	68.8	8.2	272	29.6
222	Kevin	Brown		75.5	82.1	8.7	241	23.0
223	Joe	McGinnity	54.6	56.1	8.7	269	34.8
225	Harry	Stovey		60.6	56.1	6.3	265	26.2
226	Dwight	Evans		71.4	70.5	6.7	347	27.0
227	Bobby	Doerr		74.7	72.7	7.2	281	26.0
229	Dizzy	Dean		49.2	54.8	8.5	181	29.0
246	Monte	Irvin			90.0	8.2	392	31.6
242	Stan	Hack		73.3	74.4	7.5	316	29.6
237	Larry	Walker		63.0	63.8	6.4	311	26.6
232	Keith	Hernandez	69.9	69.1	7.7	311	29.2
241	Bill	Terry		56.7	53.9	6.3	278	29.8
238	Jim	Edmonds		78.4	82.5	8.8	293	29.2
231	Red	Faber		66.8	68.1	7.0	292	26.2

2) Next to each name, mark Yes (Y) or No (N) in answer to this question: Can you tolerate this player being ranked among #214-228 on the all-time list?

This is not quite the same as asking “Do you think this player belongs in this group?”; it’s not Yes or No based on your personal rankings. It’s more along the lines “Can you see a good argument for placing this player among the top 228 in history?”

A general guideline I would offer: if a player would be in the top half of your next ballot (#229-237 all-time), you should tolerate him here. Your mileage (and tolerance) may vary. As an aid to this, here are the next eight players that are assured of appearing on the next ballot:

245	Pie	Traynor		69.4	63.9	6.4	274	24.8
239	Jose	Mendez						
197	Darrell	Evans		65.6	62.1	6.2	363	28.4
234	Bobby	Wallace		80.2	72.8	7.0	345	24.4
247	George	Gore		65.0	76.6	8.1	250	25.0
218	Bill	Foster					254	27.6
216	Ken	Boyer		60.8	62.0	6.8	279	26.8
235	Charlie	Bennett		58.7	70.2	8.2	157	16.0

3) Rank your top 9 players from this list of upcoming candidates. The top 7 from this runoff will earn a spot on the next ballot (assuming 15 are elected this time):

181	Rollie	Fingers		48.0	52.6	5.8	188	16.2
199	Carlos	Delgado		59.2	62.4	6.5	298	29.4
221	Bill	Freehan		66.7	57.6	6.5	268	27.6
230	Dickey	Pearce						
236	Roger	Bresnahan	60.1	52.7	6.0	231	25.0
240	Dave	Parker		61.5	58.5	7.6	327	31.2
243	Earl	Averill		55.1	49.8	6.1	280	29.2
244	Chuck	Klein		43.2	44.4	6.4	238	28.0
248	Hardy	Richardson	58.1	65.2	7.1	230	23.8
249	Jim	Rice		57.2	55.1	6.2	282	28.4
250	Pete	Browning	56.5	49.9	6.7	225	24.8
251	Jimmy	Wynn		73.2	68.2	8.3	305	31.8
252	Bob	Lemon		62.1	64.7	8.2	232	26.2
253	Jack	Glasscock	69.4	74.1	7.5	261	23.2
254	Graig	Nettles		86.4	80.2	7.3	321	25.6
255	Todd	Helton		57.5	58.6	7.3	261	29.4
256	Nellie	Fox		74.0	63.4	7.4	304	27.0
257	Frank	Grant						
258	Bruce	Sutter		41.0	46.8	6.3	168	21.0
259	Clark	Griffith	53.7	58.9	7.0	273	29.6
260	Albert	Belle		54.0	61.9	8.9	243	29.8
261	Dale	Murphy		49.7	50.1	6.4	294	31.4
262	Hugh	Duffy		56.5	55.0	6.1	295	28.8
263	Bob	Caruthers	50.5	46.4	7.3	337	50.8
264	Hughie	Jennings	56.0	56.5	9.8	214	30.0
265	Dobie	Moore					215	28.8
266	Cal	McVey		24.7	30.4	5.5

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Notes on charts
--The first column is their rank on the 500 Player List, v1.0.
--Career totals of WARP1 and WARP3 from Baseball Prospectus. WARP was rescaled in late February, so it cannot be compared to prior WARP numbers.
--Average of Top 5 years in WARP3.
--Career total of Win Shares; unadjusted from the book.
--Average of Top 5 years in unadjusted Win Shares.
--Stats for Negro leaguers are adapted from their MLE’s at Baseballthinkfactory. Bill Foster appears to be similar in value to Bunning and Coveleski. Dobie Moore seems almost a match for Jennings.
--Win shares are not really designed to measure earlier players. The numbers shown for Caruthers are likely to overrate him; OTOH, raw WS numbers for Stovey, Gore, Richardson, Bennett, Browning and Glasscock are likely too low.
--Win shares for active players do not include the 2009 season.
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It is helpful to me if you only list players by their last name on your ballot (or last name, first initial). If you want to change your ballot some time after it is first posted, make a post in this thread that you have done so. Balloting will continue until everyone has voted, but not more than two weeks. I will try to get the results up as soon after this as possible.

Discussion of the rankings, players and rules should take place in this thread. The Game is still On, so bring your arguments why you believe a player should be ranked higher or lower than he is on the 500 Player List.
======================================
So far, we've ranked the following players:
1. Babe Ruth, 2. Ty Cobb, 3. Willie Mays, 4. Honus Wagner, 5. Ted Williams, 6. Walter Johnson, 7. Hank Aaron, 8. Barry Bonds, 9. Stan Musial, 10. Mickey Mantle
11. Lou Gehrig, 12. Rogers Hornsby, 13. Tris Speaker, 14. Oscar Charleston, 15. Cy Young, 16. Mike Schmidt, 17. Eddie Collins, 18. Greg Maddux, 19. Josh Gibson, 20. Lefty Grove
21. Frank Robinson, 22. Joe Morgan, 23. Pete Alexander, 24. Roger Clemens, 25. Jimmie Foxx, 26. Joe DiMaggio, 27. Mel Ott, 28. Nap Lajoie, 29. Alex Rodriguez, 30. Johnny Bench
31. Rickey Henderson, 32. Eddie Mathews, 33. Tom Seaver, 34. Satchel Paige, 35. Pop Lloyd, 36. Warren Spahn, 37. Cap Anson, 38. George Brett, 39. Yogi Berra, 40. Christy Mathewson
41. Jackie Robinson, 42. Randy Johnson, 43. Dan Brouthers, 44. Ed Delahanty, 45. Cal Ripken, 46. Ken Griffey, Jr., 47. Kid Nichols, 48. Turkey Stearnes, 49. Arky Vaughan, 50. Carl Yastrzemski
51. Reggie Jackson, 52. Steve Carlton, 53. Smokey Joe Williams, 54. Frank Thomas, 55. Bob Feller, 56. Pete Rose, 57. Charlie Gehringer, 58. Mike Piazza, 59. Al Kaline, 60. Wade Boggs
61. Jeff Bagwell, 62. Sam Crawford, 63. Johnny Mize, 64. Bob Gibson, 65. Robin Yount, 66. Mickey Cochrane, 67. Roberto Clemente, 68. Duke Snider, 69. Tony Gwynn, 70. Rod Carew
71. Pedro Martinez, 72. Craig Biggio, 73. Carl Hubbell, 74. Buck Leonard, 75. Roy Campanella, 76. Hank Greenberg, 77. Frankie Frisch, 78. Harmon Killebrew, 79. Buck Ewing, 80. Paul Waner
81. Willie McCovey, 82. Roger Connor, 83. Martin Dihigo, 84. Eddie Murray, 85. Ernie Banks, 86. Robin Roberts, 87. Nolan Ryan, 88. Frank Baker, 89. King Kelly, 90. Gary Carter
91. Cristobal Torriente, 92. Billy Hamilton, 93. Gaylord Perry, 94. Al Simmons, 95. Chipper Jones, 96. Sandy Koufax, 97. Tim Raines, 98. Willie Stargell, 99. Phil Niekro, 100. Ryne Sandberg
101. Harry Heilmann, 102. Ed Walsh, 103. Ron Santo, 104. Mule Suttles, 105. Jesse Burkett, 106. Carlton Fisk, 107. Albert Pujols, 108. George Davis, 109. Roberto Alomar, 110. Eddie Plank
111. Jim Palmer, 112. Barry Larkin, 113. Bert Blyleven, 114. Joe Cronin, 115. Tim Keefe, 116. Mark McGwire, 117. John Clarkson, 118. Dick Allen, 119. Bullet Joe Rogan, 120. Jim O'Rourke
121. Paul Molitor, 122. Juan Marichal, 123. Whitey Ford, 124. George Wright, 125. Ivan Rodriguez, 126. Bill Dickey, 127. Dave Winfield, 128. Mordecai Brown, 129. Luke Appling, 130. Fergie Jenkins
131. Tom Glavine, 132. Gabby Hartnett, 133. Dazzy Vance, 134. Bill Dahlen, 135. Deacon White, 136. Manny Ramirez, 137. Gary Sheffield, 138. Mariano Rivera, 139. Paul Hines, 140. Joe Jackson
141. Alan Trammell, 142. Fred Clarke, 143. Billy Williams, 144. Larry Doby, 145. Ozzie Smith, 146. Bobby Grich, 147. Willie Wells, 148. Hal Newhouser, 149. Dennis Eckersley, 150. Louis Santop
151. Kirby Puckett, 152. Jim Thome, 153. Hoyt Wilhelm, 154. Curt Schilling, 155. Pee Wee Reese, 156. Amos Rusie, 157. Goose Goslin, 158. Derek Jeter, 159. Joe Medwick, 160. Jud Wilson
161. John Smoltz, 162. Brooks Robinson, 163. Minnie Minoso, 164. Rube Waddell, 165. Cool Papa Bell, 166. Mike Mussina, 167. Jimmy Collins, 168. Ross Barnes, 169. Richie Ashburn, 170. Lou Whitaker
171. Sherry Magee, 172. Zack Wheat, 173. Lou Boudreau, 174. Ted Lyons, 175. Ray Brown, 176. Ted Simmons, 177. Billy Herman, 178. Don Sutton, 179. Red Ruffing, 180. Max Carey
181. Enos Slaughter, 182. Don Drysdale, 183. Vladimir Guerrero, 184. Goose Gossage, 185. Jeff Kent, 186. Willie Keeler, 187. George Sisler, 188. John Ward, 189. Joe Gordon, 190. Jim Bunning
191. Stan Coveleski, 192. Pete Hill, 193. Bid McPhee, 194. Eppa Rixey, 195. Early Wynn, 196. Joe Torre, 197. Charley Radbourn, 198. Edgar Martinez, 199. Ichiro Suzuki, 200. Rube Foster
201. Pud Galvin, 202. Will Clark, 203. Elmer Flick, 204. Rafael Palmeiro, 205. Ralph Kiner, 206. Wes Ferrell, 207. Lou Brock, 208. Sam Thompson, 209. Joe Start, 210. Andre Dawson
211. Al Spalding, 212. John Beckwith, 213. Orlando Cepeda

[jjpm74]

Ranked Players:

1. Ezra Sutton Y
2. Heinie Groh Y
3. Kevin Brown Y
4. Joe McGinnity Y
5. Harry Stovey Y
6. Bobby Doerr Y
7. Dizzy Dean Y
8. Monte Irvin Y
9. Stan Hack Y
10. Bill Terry Y
11. Keith Hernandez Y
12. Tony Perez Y
13. Red Faber Y
14. Dwight Evans Y
15. Fred McGriff N
16. Larry Walker N
17. Jim Edmonds N
18. Sammy Sosa N

Runoff:

1. Dickey Pearce
2. Earl Averill
3. Roger Bresnahan
4. Dale Murphy
5. Jimmy Wynn
6. Bob Lemon
7. Rollie Fingers
8. Pete Browning
9. Bill Freehan

[gman5431]

1 Monte Irvin Y
2 Tony Perez Y
3 Bill Terry Y
4 Dizzy Dean Y
5 Larry Walker Y
6 Fred McGriff Y
7 Joe McGinnity Y
8 Heinie Groh Y
9 Red Faber Y
10 Jim Edmonds Y
11 Dwight Evans Y
12 Bobby Doerr Y
13 Stan Hack Y
14 Kevin Brown Y
15 Keith Hernandez Y
16 Sammy Sosa N
17 Ezra Sutton N
18 Harry Stovey N

G Man

[gman5431]

1 Dave Parker
2 Frank Grant
3 Albert Belle
4 Bob Lemon
5 Todd Helton
6 Carlos Delgado
7 Jim Rice
8 Jimmy Wynn
9 Rollie Fingers

G Rizzle

[jalbright]

1. Irvin
2. Hack
3. Doerr
4. McGinnity
5. Stovey
6. Faber
7. Perez
8. Sosa
9. Groh
10. Sutton
11. Dean
12. Terry--here and above are all "yes" votes
======================
13. K. Brown--N
14. Dw. Evans--N
15. McGriff--N
16. Hernandez--N
17. L. Walker--N
18. Edmonds--N


Runoff
1. Fox
2. Moore
3. Lemon
4. Duffy
5. Grant
6. Fingers
7. Glasscock
8.. Murphy
9. Richardson

[Paul Wendt]

Before entering the National League in 1879, Hardy Richardson was one of the best players in the International Association, the competing organization. He put up an MVP kind of season that would probably make him second favorite for the award by modern standards, although I suppose that a pitcher would have been named then. The Clipper named him the best centerfielder; that was Henry Chadwick's judgment of his fielding, iiuc.

Richardson joined the NL by signing with the IA champion Buffalo Bisons, for that club also made the move for the 1879 season. Richardson remained with the team throughout its seven-year tenure and he was one its "Big Four" players for whom Detroit bought the entire club when it was on the way out of business. Richardson was a strong batter who settled in as one of the best at 2b, after a trial at third which was then "second shortstop". Thereafter he played the outfield for Detroit, and then Boston in three different leagues.

Later he was one initiator of the Hall of Fame.

--more information will follow--

[Paul Wendt]

Richardson was a great player, not a serious "contributor" despite his two-bit role in Cooperstown.

We do have some pioneer ballplayers among the current nominees, more than ever before.
[add: Here I mean people who made their contributions by playing. Contrast Clark Griffith: officer in the player's association, producer of a baseball to break the Spalding monopoly, recruiter for the American League.]

: Dickey Pearce - the shortstop who took a regular place on the basepath, the most important place too, and thereby defined the position as we know it. Pearce joined the Atlantics of Brooklyn in 1856, one year before the first baseball convention which is recognized today as the origin of the National Association. He played almost exclusively for the Atlantics thru 1870, covering the entire history of the NABBP, and then played most of the 1870s in the early professional leagues, into his forties.

: Frank Grant
: Roger Bresnahan
: Bruce Sutter

Grant, Bresnahan, and Sutter are all in Cooperstown and for each the honor is commonly interpreted partly in recognition of a pioneering role.

--more information will follow, I'm sure, but that's all I have time for now (catch a bus home). Maybe others will chime in. There must be others here who know Grant or Bresnahan or Sutter as well as I do, if not all three.--

[leecemark]

1) Hernandez
2) Groh
3) Dean
4) Irvin
5) Perez
6) McGriff
7) Sutton
8) Terry
9) Faber
10) Hack
11) Doerr
--yes/no line------
12) Walker
13) Brown
14) Sosa
15) McGinnity
16) Evans
17) Stovey
18) Edmonds


Run off
1) Griffith
2) Pearce
3) Fox
4) Freehan
5) Jennings
6) Caruthers
7) Murphy
8) Lemon
9) Averill

[Sockeye]

Rankings

1. Larry Walker Y
2. Sammy Sosa Y
3. Fred McGriff Y
4. Dwight Evans Y
5. Keith Hernandez Y
6. Kevin Brown Y
7. Jim Edmonds Y
8. Red Faber Y
9. Tony Perez Y
10. Joe McGinnity Y
11. Bill Terry Y
12. Stan Hack Y
13. Harry Stovey Y
14. Bobby Doerr N
15. Heinie Groh N
16. Dizzy Dean N
17. Ezra Sutton N
18. Monte Irvin N

Runoff

1. Jim Rice
2. Carlos Delgado
3. Todd Helton
4. Albert Belle
5. Chuck Klein
6. Jimmy Wynn
7. Dave Parker
8. Earl Averill
9. Graig Nettles

[Brad Harris]

Rankings
1. Larry Walker
2. Fred McGriff
3. Kevin Brown
4. Jim Edmonds
5. Red Faber
6. Joe McGinnity
7. Bill Terry
8. Harry Stovey
9. Heinie Groh
10. Keith Hernandez
11. Ezra Sutton
12. Monte Irvin
13. Dizzy Dean
14. Stan Hack
<---------------------------> below this line is a 'No'
15. Sammy Sosa
16. Dwight Evans
17. Tony Perez
18. Bobby Doerr


Runoff
1. Bob Lemon
2. Jimmy Wynn
3. Carlos Delgado
4. Todd Helton
5. Frank Grant
6. Dale Murphy
7. Bill Freehan
8. Earl Averill
9. Albert Belle

[Freakshow]

Runoff
1. Bob Lemon
2. Jimmy Wynn
3. Carlos Delgado
4. Todd Helton
5. Frank Grant
6. Dale Murphy
7. Bill Freehan

Brad: Please add two more names to your runoff queue.

[Brad Harris]

Runoff
1. Bob Lemon
2. Jimmy Wynn
3. Carlos Delgado
4. Todd Helton
5. Frank Grant
6. Dale Murphy
7. Bill Freehan
8. Earl Averill
9. Albert Belle

Oops. Fixed, thanks.

[mwiggins]

1. Irvin
2. Dean
3. Groh
4. Evans
5. Faber
6. Hack
7. Terry
8. McGinnity
9. Sutton
10. Hernadez
11. Doerr
----no to all below ----
12. McGriff
13. Perez
14. Walker
15. Stovey
16. Edmunds
17. Brown
18. Sosa

1. Fox
2. Freehan
3. Averill
4. Bresnahan
5. Parker
6. Wynn
7. Lemon
8. Belle
9. Jennings

[dgarza]

1. Sammy Sosa
2. Harry Stovey
3. Bill Terry
4. Larry Walker
5. Joe McGinnity
6. Stan Hack
7. Bobby Doerr
8. Fred McGriff
9. Kevin Brown
10. Keith Hernandez
11. Tony Perez
12. Dwight Evans
13. Red Faber
14. Jim Edmonds
15. Monte Irvin - N
16. Dizzy Dean - N
17. Heinie Groh - N
18. Ezra Sutton - N


Run-Off
1. Chuck Klein
2. Todd Helton
3. Hugh Duffy
4. Jim Rice
5. Pete Browning
6. Albert Belle
7. Earl Averill
8. Nellie Fox
9. Dave Parker

[Freakshow]

1. Fox
2. Freehan
3. Averill
4. Bresnahan
5. Parker
6. Wynn
7. Lemon
8. Belle

Could you please add a 9th name to your runoff ballot. This number will continue to creep upwards as the project goes on.

[Paul Wendt]

My ballot leaves all the pioneers (see #7) on the board.

runoff
Glasscock
Richardson
Caruthers
Belle
McVey
Freehan
Wynn
Averill
Murphy

Jack Glasscock clearly belongs in Cooperstown and the others are reasonable selections. (If not, they wouldn't be reasonable selections for the first 250 slots here.)

Earl Averill is in Cooperstown and all the others but Cal McVey have been slotted in Cooperstown "Purgatory" next door. All but Jimmy Wynn are in the BBF Hall of Fame. All but Albert Belle and Dale Murphy are in the Hall of Merit.
--Thus Glasscock, Richardson, Caruthers, and Freehan are in all three of those shadow halls.

[Freakshow]

1 Irvin
2 Groh
3 Edmonds
4 Brown
5 Sosa
6 Hack
7 Hernandez
8 Faber
9 Sutton
10 Doerr
11 Terry
12 McGinnity
13 Stovey
14 Evans
15 Perez N
16 McGriff N
17 Dean N
18 Walker N

Runoff
1 Wynn J
2 Glasscock
3 Nettles
4 Jennings
5 Grant
6 Caruthers
7 Averill
8 Lemon B
9 Freehan

[John Shoemaker]

1. Sosa - Y
2. Irvin - Y
3. Groh - Y
4. McGinnity - Y
5. Terry - Y
6. Faber - Y
7. Hack - Y
8. Brown - Y
9. McGriff - Y
10. Hernandez - Y
11. Walker - Y
12. Dean - Y
13. Perez - Y
14. Doerr - Y
15. Stovey - Y
16. Sutton - Y
17. Evans - Y
18. Edmonds - Y

Runoff

1. Delgado
2. Lemon
3. Belle
4. Helton
5. Parker
6. Murphy
7. Rice
8. Klein
9. Nettles

[Paul Wendt]

Primary ballot

1 Monte Irvin
2 Heinie Groh
3 Ezra Sutton
4 Jim Edmonds
5 Fred McGriff
6 Keith Hernandez
7 Kevin Brown
8 Joe McGinnity
9 Stan Hack
10 Larry Walker

Does everyone know that Monte Irvin was a star player by 1939, ten years before he signed with the New York Giants?
G Man and I agree in slotting him number one here!
(pause for others to edit their rankings)

11 Harry Stovey
12 Bobby Doerr
13 Red Faber
------ ------ ----- Yes/No line
14 Dwight Evans
15 Bill Terry
16 Sammy Sosa
17 Tony Perez
18 Dizzy Dean


Runoff ballot repeated for convenience
1 Glasscock
2 Richardson
3 Caruthers
4 Belle
5 McVey
6 Freehan
7 Wynn
8 Averill
9 Murphy

[jalbright]

1 Monte Irvin

Does everyone know that Monte Irvin was a star player by 1939, ten years before he signed with the New York Giants?
G Man and I agree in slotting him number one here!

He's gotten some other #1s (including mine), and is #2 for at least two more.

Here's what I wrote about Irvin previously:

Monte Irvin--ELECTED BBF HOF OCTOBER 2005

People look at his MLB career of eight years but forget they start when he's 30 and that he broke his ankle quite badly when he was 33. It's easy to forget he lost about 10 years to the color line and WWII.

His Negro League stats in Shadows of Glory, translated to 550 AB format are as follows:

AB runs  hits 2B  3B  HR  RBI  BB  Sac  SB  avg  obp  slg  
550  117  197  32   8  22  137  53   9  14  .358  .415  .564

We know that his Negro League stats wouldn't have transferred over precisely, so what would his career have looked like with those 10 years? The best answer I can come up with starts with a APBA simulation of the franchise All-Stars of the Negro leagues prepared by David Lawrence. In the set I'm talking about, he takes the entire career of the player with the franchise he's carded with and translates it to an "average season" for the franchise. Since Irvin spent virtually all his time with the Newark Eagles, that helps. His method also eliminates problems caused by 30 to 50 game data samples. I then took those numbers from the Negro Leagues and translated them to major league numbers by mulitplying runs and RBI by 9 (.9 times 10) and walks all types of hits by 9.5 (.95 times 10) to account for the difference in leagues. The other stats were simply mutliplied by 10. There are no park adjustments in this projection, however. I'll then add that projected data to his actual MLB stats.

Here's what we get:

G	AB	R	H	2B	3B	HR	RBI	BB	SB	avg	obp	slg
2144	8159	1506	2565	506	88	289	1703	1013	190	0.314	0.390	0.504

Compare those numbers prorated to 1500 AB to what he did in 1950-1953 in the majors. His marks are as follows, despite losing 100 games in 1952 to a badly broken ankle:

……………….......	AB	R	H	2B	3B	HR	RBI	BB	SB	avg	obp	slg
Projection	1500	277	472	93	16	53	320	190	35	0.314	0.390	0.504
1950-53 MLB	1502	237	471	61	22	64	305	206	17	0.314	0.381	0.511

Those numbers match up quite well with the projection I gave for him. I think it is quite reasonable to think that 10 seasons before this stretch would help him hold the line against his decline phase, which lasted a mere 4 seasons. The biggest difference I see is that he lost his speed (I'd suggest due to a combination of age and the ankle injury.) In fact, I understand he reinjured the ankle badly in a collision at home plate on August 9, 1953. This could well account for his dropoff thereafter.


I then used a database that ends with the 1998 season to come up with the most similar players using Similarity Scores. The top ten, in order from most similar to least similar are:


Goose Goslin in Cooperstown, 13 of 34 votes in May for BBFHOF
Al Simmons in BBFHOF and Cooperstown
Harry Heilmann in BBFHOF and Cooperstown
Dave Parker in neither, no votes in May
Joe Medwick in Cooperstown, 13 of 34 votes in May for BBFHOF
Bob Johnson in neither, no votes in May
Jim Rice in neither, 1 of 34 votes in May
George Brett in BBFHOF and Cooperstown
Roberto Clemente in BBFHOF and Cooperstown
Billy Williams in Cooperstown, 21 of 34 votes in May for BBFHOF


All his top 3 and 7 of his top 10 comparables are in Cooperstown , and 4 of the top ten comparables are in the BBF HOF. The three that are in Cooperstown but not in the BBFHOF have all garnered at least 40% (Goslin and Medwick had 14/34 in April) of the vote, one of them has achieved over 60%. If we gave all the four in the BBF the minimum for election of 26 votes, this group of ten would average over 15 (actually 15.1) votes. If we used the same approach but limited ourselves to the seven HOFers, the average would jump to over 21.5. Seems to me Monte deserves much more attention than those two measly votes in April followed by none in May.

Note: In the Negro Leagues, he won 2 home run titles, per William McNeil on page 32 of Cool Papas and Double Duties

Biography from Riley's Biographical Encyclopedia of the Negro Leagues, page 408:

He signed with the Newark Eagles in 1937, playing under another name to protect his amateur standing, since he was in college. Irvin was a power hitter who also hit for high average, [winning] two batting titles in the Negro National League. . . . [He spearheaded the Eagles' 1946 victory] in the Negro World Series. . . .

A versatile player, he played both infield and outfield with the Eagles. . . . In 1939, he hit .403 with good power, and followed with strong seasons of .377 and .400. {A contract hassle led him to go to Mexico in 1942, where he led in average (.397) and home runs (20), finished second in RBIs (79) in only 63 games, and won the MVP award. {Then . . . he was drafted . . . spending three years in military service. . . .

After his three-year hiatus from baseball, Irvin felt a need for additional winter ball to work back into his prewar condition, and resumed pley in Latin America. Irvin [played on champions in both Cuba and Puerto Rico}. He posted a lifetime .355 average in Puerto Rico.. . .

Before the war Irvin had been the Negro League owner's choice for the player to be the player to break the color line [but because of the war, Jackie Robinson became the one to do so].

Also of note are the following: 1) Elected to Cooperstown; 2) 19th place in the SABR poll ranking Negro League greats, and 3) the third best Negro League left-fielder in the opinion of Bill James in his latest Historical Abstract.

Anyone interested in his career in the majors can conuslt baseballlibrary.com. and/or baseball-reference.com.

[jjpm74]

Irvin should have no problem sticking around this round. I'm not about to move him up on my list, however.

[Paul Wendt]

Isn't it the "losers" who "stick around" here?


For G Man, Tony Perez is near the top and Ezra Sutton near the bottom. For me it's vice versa. They are not the only such players, so it's notable that we both put Monte Irvin number one this week. Probably that shouldn't be enough to persuade anyone, but if that's the way the world is ...

Also of note are the following: 1) Elected to Cooperstown; 2) 19th place in the SABR poll ranking Negro League greats, and 3) the third best Negro League left-fielder in the opinion of Bill James in his latest Historical Abstract.

Irvin played third, short, second, and center in the Negro Leagues and in Mexico, where there was a relative talent shortage and when he was younger. In the majors he played first-right-left as a rookie, thereafter almost exclusively left.

The Hall of Merit voted Monte Irvin number ten at LF in one of the special elections last year. That's just behind Billy Williams and ahead of Stargell, Heilmann, and Goslin among others. Irvin is the only player from the Negro Leagues ranked at LF. Bill James recognizes relatively few centerfielders and the Hall of Merit relatively many.

[Paul Wendt]

bump. It's tough to compete with the present decade.

[Freakshow]

We're waiting for one more of our regular voters to check in:

STLCards2

We'll give it another day or two then close it out.

[Freakshow]

Rank		        Pts	 Ave	1st	No's
214	Monte Irvin	321	 5.8 	 5	 2
215	Heinie Groh	313	 6.5 	 0	 2
216	Joe McGinnity	302	 7.5 	 0	 1
217	Bill Terry	293	 8.4 	 0	 1
218	Stan Hack	291	 8.5 	 0	 0
219	Red Faber	290	 8.6 	 0	 0
220	Kevin Brown	288	 8.8 	 0	 3
221	Fred McGriff	288	 8.8 	 0	 4
222	Keith Hernandez	284	 9.2 	 1	 1
223	Larry Walker	276	 9.9 	 2	 5
224	Ezra Sutton	267	 10.7 	 1	 3
225	Bobby Doerr	267	 10.7 	 0	 2
226	Dizzy Dean	266	 10.8 	 0	 4
227	Tony Perez	264	 11.0 	 0	 4
Carried over to next election					
	Sammy Sosa	271	 10.4 	 2	 6
	Harry Stovey	263	 11.1 	 0	 3
	Jim Edmonds	256	 11.7 	 0	 4
	Dwight Evans	249	 12.4 	 0	 4

Runoff Winners		Pts	Bal		
252	Bob Lemon	97	 8		
243	Earl Averill	84	 8		
251	Jimmy Wynn	84	 7		
260	Albert Belle	82	 7		
255	Todd Helton	67	 5		
221	Bill Freehan	65	 6		
Also-Ran					
261	Dale Murphy	62	 6		
240	Dave Parker	58	 5		
199	Carlos Delgado	56	 4		
256	Nellie Fox	55	 4
257	Frank Grant	51	 4
249	Jim Rice	49	 4
253	Jack Glasscock	41	 3
244	Chuck Klein	37	 3
263	Bob Caruthers	36	 3
264	Hughie Jennings	33	 3
230	Dickey Pearce	31	 2
254	Graig Nettles	30	 3
181	Rollie Fingers	29	 3
236	Roger Bresnahan	27	 2
262	Hugh Duffy	27	 2
248	H. Richardson	23	 2
250	Pete Browning	21	 2
259	Clark Griffith	16	 1
265	Dobie Moore	15	 1
266	Cal McVey	12	 1
258	Bruce Sutter	 0	 0

There were three big winners in this election. Monte Irvin broke the record for biggest gain, 32 places, from #246 to #214; Bill Terry advanced 24 places, from #241 to #217; Stan Hack was also up 24 places, from #242 to #218.

There was one big loser: Fred McGriff fell 30 spots from #191 to #221. Sammy Sosa continued his fall, getting a thumbs down from a majority of the voters; he'll end up at least 46 spots lower.

The Runoff winners that will appear on the next ballot are B. Lemon, Averill, J. Wynn, Belle, Helton and Freehan. (Points are now calculated on a 16-15-14-13-12-11-10-9-8 basis.)

See you in election #21.