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Reply With QuoteIf you notice, the lowest totals are all from expansion teams. Only the Mets are almost 50 years old, and their highest total comes from Ed Kranepool????
professional whistler
As of this writing, Derek Jeter sits four hits shy of breaking Lou Gehrig's record for most hits by a Yankee. Thought the occasion was a good opportunity to look at some similar records. Some interesting surprises here.
ARI 1337 Luis Gonzalez
ATL 3600 Hank Aaron
BAL 3184 Cal Ripken
BOS 3419 Carl Yastrzemski
CHC 2995 Cap Anson
CHW 2749 Luke Appling
CIN 3358 Pete Rose
CLE 2046 Nap Lajoie
COL 2111 Todd Helton
DET 3900 Ty Cobb
FLA 1273 Luis Castillo
HOU 3060 Craig Biggio
KC 3154 George Brett
LAA 2368 Garret Anderson
LAD 2804 Zack Wheat
MIL 3142 Robin Yount
NYM 1411 Ed Kranepool
NYY 2721 Derek Jeter/Lou Gehrig
OAK 1882 Bert Campaneris
PHI 2234 Mike Schmidt
PIT 3000 Roberto Clemente
SD 3141 Tony Gwynn
SF 3187 Willie Mays
SEA 2247 Edgar Martinez
STL 3630 Stan Musial
TB 1273 Carl Crawford
TOR 1583 Tony Fernandez
WAS 1694 Tim Wallach
Last edited by Brad Harris; 09-10-2009 at 12:54 PM.
No matter what I talk about, I always get back to baseball." -- Connie Mack
If you notice, the lowest totals are all from expansion teams. Only the Mets are almost 50 years old, and their highest total comes from Ed Kranepool????
The Exactor says:"Let's go BJ's"
Moderator/Systems Analyst
Free agency plays as big a part of that as anything.Originally Posted by yankillaz
If you notice, the lowest totals are all from expansion teams. Only the Mets are almost 50 years old, and their highest total comes from Ed Kranepool????
RIP Tom Tresh. Detroiter. Chippewa. Yankee. Good man.
RIP George Kell. Batting Champ. Champ Broadcaster. HOFer. Good man.
RIP Mark Fidrych. The first player I actively followed.
Pigskin Fever, though, lives. http://www.pigskin-fever.com/ Come help make it as good as its sister site.
Wonder how far he will get. Predictions?
Averaging one home run every 10.61 at-bats throughout an entire career - an amazing stat that gets little respect, yet will NEVER be broken!
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Moderator/Systems Analyst
3, 267 safeties.
RIP Tom Tresh. Detroiter. Chippewa. Yankee. Good man.
RIP George Kell. Batting Champ. Champ Broadcaster. HOFer. Good man.
RIP Mark Fidrych. The first player I actively followed.
Pigskin Fever, though, lives. http://www.pigskin-fever.com/ Come help make it as good as its sister site.
Sorted:
Of the older teams, CLE and OAK are waaay down there, and the Yankee's are suprisingly low.Code:DET 3,900 Ty Cobb STL 3,630 Stan Musial ATL 3,600 Hank Aaron BOS 3,419 Carl Yastrzemski CIN 3,358 Pete Rose SF 3,187 Willie Mays BAL 3,184 Cal Ripken KC 3,154 George Brett MIL 3,142 Robin Yount SD 3,141 Tony Gwynn HOU 3,060 Craig Biggio PIT 3,000 Roberto Clemente CHC 2,995 Cap Anson LAD 2,804 Zack Wheat CHW 2,749 Luke Appling NYY 2,721 Lou Gehrig LAA 2,368 Garret Anderson SEA 2,247 Edgar Martinez PHI 2,234 Mike Schmidt COL 2,111 Todd Helton CLE 2,046 Nap Lajoie OAK 1,882 Bert Campaneris WAS 1,694 Tim Wallach TOR 1,583 Tony Fernandez NYM 1,411 Ed Kranepool ARI 1,337 Luis Gonzalez FLA 1,273 Luis Castillo TB 1,273 Carl Crawford
Last edited by CandlestickBum; 09-10-2009 at 12:51 PM. Reason: code
There's no crying at BBF!
Tough question. I'll be surprised if he gets past 3,400 hits.
Strikeouts are boring! Besides that, they're fascist. Throw some ground balls - it's more democratic.-Crash Davis
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This is such a non-story outside of NY Yankee circles.
Buck O'Neil: The Monarch of Baseball
professional whistler
I'm not surprised by Oakland because their dynastic players were always sold off, but Cleveland is somewhat unexpected. (Shows how few great hitters that stuck around long enough.) Consider how many of these franchises have a record lower than Ichiro Suzuki's 9-year hit total.
No matter what I talk about, I always get back to baseball." -- Connie Mack
Am I the only one surprised at the low hit total for the Phillies? I mean, this is a 127 year old franchise and their hit leader has fewer hits than the hit leader for my beloved M's.
Which is a fallacy since the Yankees are the marquee franchise of MLB. Lou Gehrig isn't just "some player".
Jeter is still ahead of Pete Rose's pace for career hits
And? Cobb, Aaron, Yount, Crawford, Speaker, and Musial all had more hits by the age of 35 than Rose did too. Yount finished about 1100 hits behind Rose. Crawford is about 1300 behind Rose.
Jeter's already amassed a great hit total, but he is by no means guaranteed anything. Like Crawford, he could be out of the game before he even makes it to 3,000.
Moderator/Systems Analyst
It's not a fallacy. If you can legitimately point out why this is such an important story for fans from the 28 other MLB cities (and other cities in other geographic locations) that it so greatly trumps all else I'd be surprised.
It is a story, a good one. One deserving of mention. It is not even close to being the biggest story of the year as someone on ESPN trumped it as this morning.
RIP Tom Tresh. Detroiter. Chippewa. Yankee. Good man.
RIP George Kell. Batting Champ. Champ Broadcaster. HOFer. Good man.
RIP Mark Fidrych. The first player I actively followed.
Pigskin Fever, though, lives. http://www.pigskin-fever.com/ Come help make it as good as its sister site.
I would agree that it's not the biggest story of the year, but the original comment was that it was a "non-story" outside of NY. Just think about the rich history of the Yankees, and no one has gotten to 3,000 hits which is pretty shocking. Jeter will likely be the first.
Moderator/Systems Analyst
It is a story. As an objective former journalist, I'd say it deserves its own article, more than just the team-by-team capsules most local papers across the country would have. I wouldn't put it on the first sports page of the Detroit News or Chicago Tribune or Atlanta Constitution, etc. but it does merit mention.
Yes. Mention.
RIP Tom Tresh. Detroiter. Chippewa. Yankee. Good man.
RIP George Kell. Batting Champ. Champ Broadcaster. HOFer. Good man.
RIP Mark Fidrych. The first player I actively followed.
Pigskin Fever, though, lives. http://www.pigskin-fever.com/ Come help make it as good as its sister site.
Highly unlikely though. He'll likely reach 3,000 in the next 2 seasons. Yes career ending injuries can happen to anyone, especially after 35 but Jeter has been very consistant in his career, i'll rekon he'll end up around 3,300-3,500. How long he stays with the yankees will probably be up to him as much as anyone, you have to feel they'll make room for him in the OF or DH until he feels ready to move on.
Willie Keeler, who took fewer games to reach 2,000 hits than anyone else ever, had 2,650 hits before he was 35 and a .355 lifetime avg., heck, he'd never once hit below .300 -but he didn't make 3,000 hits and was out of baseball four years later at .341 lifetime after seasons of .234, .263, and .264, so nothing's a given.
I wonder how much effect the foul strike rule had on Keeler's batting skill, his batting average. Before foul balls were counted as strikes Willie was knocking the cover off the ball. Before 1901 foul balls were not counted as strikes in the NL, the AL followed in 1903.
Willie dropped dramatically in that time, he was only 30-31 years old.
The reason I bring up that rule change and it's possible effect is because Willie and John McGraw were masters at fouling off pitches ( no strike) until they got one they liked. One of them, don't recall who, one time fouled off 22 pitches, not charged with one strike, then walked.
That aside I do agree with your point, we can never know, looks like Jeter is on his way, but nothing is sure.
Last edited by SHOELESSJOE3; 09-10-2009 at 07:40 PM.
We'll never really know about McGraw, since he finally blew out his knee for good in spring training 1903 so we don't have any numbers to crunch, but with Keeler...well, it's true that he did foul off a lot of pitches before the rule, and it's clear that the rule affected him, but not that much it seems.
In 1900, without the rule, he hit .362 with a 129 OPS+. In 1901, with it, his batting dropped to a career low (for a full season) .339, but his OPS+ was at 126 and he still had 200 hits. The next three years it was 130, 116, and 147, which was the second highest of his career, so there really was no dramatic drop in his fortunes, he merely reflected the league as a whole, but he was still getting 180+ hits a year.
He suddenly lost it, as mentioned in my earlier post, at the age of 35 in 1907, when he hit .234 after never failing to reach either .300 or the league top 10 in batting one single time in his career (in fact, in both 1904 and 05 he was second in the league in batting, so he wasn't at all in decline). However, I've just noticed that it was also the first season that he didn't play a full complement of games- he only played 107 that year.
Perhaps he was injured or something? Anybody know about this? That would certainly explain the tailspin at the end of his career.
As a side note, you can see one effect of the foul strike rule in his stats- he started bunting more. Beginning in 1901 he had 9 straight seasons of over 20 sacrifices, with an amazing 33 in only 99 games when his magic was all gone in 1909.
Do not know about McGraw, my previous post dealt only with Keeler and his dramatic drop. I only mentioned John because like Keeler he used that "no strike" foul rule greatly to his advantage.
Yes as you say Keeler really took a dip in 1907 but his slide began much earlier, around 1900 still young 30 or 31, just at the time the foul strike rule was changed. I can't say that was the whole reason but it's at least reasonable to at least give it some thought, maybe part of the reason for that decline.
He may have finished second in those two seasons but his numbers show he was in decline after the turn of the century, more so than the league declined.
Here he is is some full seasons.
Average for years
1894-1900 age 22-28----Ba. .383-----OBA .428
1901-1907 age 29-35----Ba. .312-----OBA .356 Fouls now called strikes.
His three highest batting averages in these years
1894-1900------.424 .386 .385
1901-1907------.343 .339 .333
Now his stats reflect the leagues drop with that foul strike change, but it appears he fell off the edge, really came down
Again, not to say that rule change was the only factor, how will we ever know for sure, but it may have played a part in his drop after the turn of the century.
On the Yankee game last night, the announcer said Jeter is quoted as saying he'd like to play until 43. If he does that, he should get past 3,400 easily.
Averaging one home run every 10.61 at-bats throughout an entire career - an amazing stat that gets little respect, yet will NEVER be broken!
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