16th Greatest Pitcher: Will Smokey Joe whip Carlton?

[Bill Burgess]

Congratulations to the 19th Century's Kid Nichols for winning our 15th Greatest Pitcher Poll! After taking 2nd place for 2 rounds in a row, he finally scores. He scored 57 points from our 19 voters, including 5 first place votes. The great Smoky Joe Williams amassed 50 points for second place, picking up 5 first place votes for himself along the way.

The 16th round for Greatest Pitcher series is now open. Round 16 will end when we receive 20 ballots, however long that takes us.

1. Walter Johnson
2. Greg Maddux
3. Cy Young
4. Lefty Grove
5. Pete Alexander
6. Christy Mathewson
7. Tom Seaver
8. Roger Clemens
9. Randy Johnson
10. Warren Spahn
11. Satchel Paige
12. Pedro Martinez
13. Bob Feller
14. Bob Gibson
15. Kid Nichols
16.

As per our usual, please consider everything. Counting totals, rate stats, relative stats, peak, longevity, special skills, awards/opinions, intangibles, team support/lack of support, special circumstances, time missed for war/injuries, etc.

We are now ONLY voting for the 16th Greatest. Please submit your ballot with your next Top 5 Pitchers. As the winner of Round 15, Kid Nichols is now eliminated from further consideration. Negro Leaguers are eligible.

Here is how Round 1 broke down.---31 voters

-----Johnson------Maddux--Matty-Alexander-Young---Grove---Clemens--Nichols-Spahn-Feller-Koufax-Seaver-Martinez-Rivera-N.Ryan
1.----110 pts(22)---25(5)------0-----0-------5(1)-----10(2)-----0--------0-----0------5(1)-----0----0-------0-------0------0
2. ---24(6)---------24(6)---16(4)---4(1)----12(3)-----28(7)----8(2)-------0-----0-------0----4(1)----0-------0-------0------0 
3.-----6(2)---------15(5)----3(1)--18(6)-----9(3)-----18(6)-----0-------3(1)---6(2)-----0------0-----0-------0-------0-----6(2)
4. -----2(1)--------10(5)----2(1)--10(5)----16(8)------8(4)----10(5)------0-----0-------0-----2(1)---0-------0-------0------0
5.------0------------4(4)----1(1)---6(6)-----4(4)------4(4)------0--------0----1(1)----1(1)---2(2)--1(1)----1(1)-----2(2)----0
Totals-142-----------78-------22----38-------46-------68-------18-------3-----7-------6-------8----1-------1-------2------6

1. Walter Johnson - 142 (22)
2. Greg Maddux - 78 (5)
3. Lefty Grove - 68 (2)
4. Cy Young - 46 (1)
4. Pete Alexander - 38
6. Christy Mathewson - 22
7. Roger Clemens - 18
8. Sandy Koufax - 8
9. Warren Spahn - 7
9. Bob Feller - 6 (1)
11. Nolan Ryan - 6
11. Kid Nichols - 3
12. Mariano Rivera - 2
13. Tom Seaver - 1
13. Pedro Martinez - 1
------------------------------------------------------------------------
Here is how Round 2 broke down.---24 voters

1. Greg Maddux - 78(11)
2. Lefty Grove - 71(7)
3. Cy Young - 58(2)
4. Pete Alexander - 46(1)
5. Christy Mathewson - 31(2)
6. Roger Clemens - 20(1)
7. Warren Spahn - 9
8. Nolan Ryan - 7
9. Bob Feller - 5
9. Tom Seaver - 5
9. Randy Johnson - 5 
12. Pedro Martinez - 4
13. Bob Gibson - 3
13. Mariano Rivera - 3
15. Satchel Paige - 2
16. Smokey Joe Williams - 1
16. Kid Nichols - 1
16. Curt Schilling - 1
------------------------------
Fine Breakdown: Round 2:
------------------------------1st-----2nd-----3rd-----4th-----5th
1. Greg Maddux--------------55(11)--20(5)----3(1)----0--------0
2. Lefty Grove --------------35(7)---12(3)----18(6)---4(2)-----2(2)
3. Cy Young-----------------10(2)---16(4)----18(6)--12(6)----2(2)
4. Pete Alexander--------------5(1)--20(5)----12(4)---4(2)----5(5)
5. Christy Mathewson----------10(2)-8(2)------6(2)---4(2)----3(3)
6. Roger Clemens---------------5(1)--8(2)-----3(1)----2(1)---2(2)
7. Warren Spahn-----------------0---4(1)-----3(1)-----0-----2(1) 
8. Nolan Ryan--------------------0---4(1)------0------2(1)---1(1)
9. Bob Feller---------------------0-----0-------0------4(2)---1(1)
9. Tom Seaver-------------------0-----0-------3(1)--2(1)-----0 
9. Randy Johnson----------------0-----0-------3(1)--2(1)-----0  
12. Pedro Martinez---------------0----4(1)------0-----0-------0
13. Bob Gibson-------------------0-----0-------0-----2(1)----1(1)
13. Mariano Rivera---------------0------0------0-----2(1)-----1(1)
15. Satchel Paige----------------0------0------0-----2(1)------0 
16. Smokey Joe Williams----------0------0------0------0-------1(1)
16. Kid Nichols-------------------0------0------0------0-------1(1) 
16. Curt Schilling-----------------0------0------0------0-------1(1)

Round 3:---19 voters

1. Cy Young - 66(5)
2. Lefty Grove - 57(5)
3. Pete Alexander - 54(3)
4. Christy Mathewson - 40
5. Tom Seaver - 28(1)
6. Roger Clemens - 18(2)
7. Randy Johnson - 13(1)
8. Satchel Paige - 8
9. Bob Feller - 5
9. Mariano Rivera - 5
11. Warren Spahn - 4
11. Nolan Ryan - 4
13. Sandy Koufax - 3
14.  Steve Carlton- 2
14. Bob Gibson - 2
16. Curt Schilling - 1
16. Pedro Martinez - 1
16. Rube Foster - 1

Here's the breakdown.

-----------------------1st------2nd-----3rd------4th------5th
1. Cy Young----------25(5)-----20(5)----15(5)----6(3)------0
2. Lefty Grove--------25(5)-----24(6)-----3(1)----4(2)------1(1)
3. Pete Alexander-----15(3)-----16(4)----18(6)----4(2)------1(1)
4. Christy Mathewson-10(2)-----16(4)-----3(1)----8(4)------3(3)
5. Tom Seaver--------5(1)------4(1)------9(3)----6(3)------4(4)
6. Roger Clemens-----10(2)-----4(1)-------0------2(1)------2(2)
7. Randy Johnson------5(1)------0--------3(1)-----0--------5(5)
8. Satchel Paige--------0--------0--------6(2)-----2(1)------0
9. Bob Feller------------0--------0-------3(1)-----2(1)-------0
10. Warren Spahn-------0-------0---------0-------2(1)------2(2)
10. Nolan Ryan----------0------4(1)-------0-------0---------0
13. Sandy Koufax-------0-------0---------3(1)-----0---------0
14. Bob Gibson----------0-------0---------0-------2(1)------0
14. Steve Carlton-------0--------0---------0------2(1)------0
16. Pedro Martinez------0--------0---------0-------0--------1(1)
16. Curt Schilling--------0--------0---------0-------0--------1(1)
16. Rube Foster---------0--------0---------0-------0--------1(1)
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Round 4.---21 voters

1. Lefty Grove - 73(9)
2. Pete Alexander - 61(4)
3. Christy Mathewson - 48(2)
4. Tom Seaver - 31(2)
5. Roger Clemens - 28(3)
6. Randy Johnson - 17
7. Satchel Paige - 15
8. Pedro Martinez - 13
9. Joe Williams - 6
10. Sandy Koufax - 5
11. Warren Spahn - 4
11. Bob Feller - 4
13. Steve Carlton - 2
14. Bob Caruthers - 1
14. Kid Nichols - 1
14. Rube Foster

Here's the fine breakdown.

--------------------------1st----2nd-----3rd----4th----5th
1. Lefty Grove-----------45(9)---16(4)---6(2)---6(3)----0
2. Pete Alexander--------20(4)---24(6)---9(3)---6(3)---2(2)
3. Christy Mathewson----10(2)----8(2)--24(8)---4(2)---2(2)
4. Tom Seaver-----------10(2)---12(3)---3(1)---4(2)---2(2)
5. Roger Clemens---------15(3)----0------9(3)---2(1)---2(2)
6. Randy Johnson----------0------4(1)-----0----10(5)---3(3)
7. Satchel Paige-----------0------8(2)----3(1)----0-----4(4)
8. Pedro Martinez---------5(1)----8(2)-----0------0------0
9. Joe Williams-------------0------4(1)-----0-----2(1)----0
10. Sandy Koufax----------0--------0-----3(1)---2(1)----0
11. Warren Spahn----------0--------0------0-----2(1)---2(2)
11. Bob Feller--------------0--------0-----3(1)----0-----1(1)
13. Steve Carlton----------0--------0------0-----2(1)----0
14. Bob Caruthers----------0--------0------0------0----1(1)
14. Kid Nichols-------------0--------0------0------0----1(1)
14. Rube Foster------------0--------0------0------0----1(1)
--------------------------------------------------------------------------
Round 5.  19 voters.

1. Pete Alexander - 65(7)
2. Tom Seaver - 50(6)
3. Christy Mathewson - 39(2)
4. Randy Johnson - 32
5. Satchel Paige - 31(2)
6. Roger Clemens - 21(1)
7. Warren Spahn - 14
8. Bob Feller - 7
9. Kid Nichols - 6
10. Pedro Martinez - 5(1)
11. Joe Williams - 4
12. Bob Gibson - 3
13. Steve Carlton - 2
14. Bob Caruthers - 1
14. Sandy Koufax - 1
-------------------------------------------- 
The fine breakdown.  
-----------------------1st----2nd----3rd---4th---5th
1. Pete Alexander-----35(7)--24(6)---6(2)---0-----0
2. Tom Seaver--------30(6)---8(2)---6(2)--6(3)---0
3. Christy Mathewson-10(2)---8(2)--12(4)--8(4)--1(1)
4. Randy Johnson-------0------8(2)--15(5)--6(3)--3(3)
5. Satchel Paige------10(2)---8(2)---6(2)--6(3)--1(1)
6. Roger Clemens------5(1)---8(2)---3(1)--4(2)--1(1) 
7. Warren Spahn-------0-----4(1)---3(1)---0----7(7)
8. Bob Feller-----------0-----4(1)----0----2(1)--1(1) 
9. Kid Nichols----------0-------0----3(1)--2(1)--1(1) 
10. Pedro Martinez----5(1)-----0-----0-----0-----0
11. Joe Williams--------0-------0-----0---2(1)--1(1)
12. Bob Gibson---------0-------0----3(1)--0-----0 
13. Steve Carlton------0-------0-----0---2(1)---0
14. Bob Caruthers------0-------0-----0----0----1(1) 
14. Sandy Koufax-------0------0-----0----0----1(1)

Round 6. ---20 voters.

1. Christy Mathewson - 65
2. Tom Seaver - 59
3. Randy Johnson - 35
4. Roger Clemens - 28
4. Warren Spahn - 28
6. Satchel Paige - 27
6. Pedro Martinez - 27
8. Smokey Joe Williams - 8
9. Bob Feller - 6
9. Kid Nichols - 6
11. Sandy Koufax - 4
12. Bob Gibson - 3
13. Steve Carlton - 2
14. Bob Caruthers - 1
14. Mordecai Brown - 1

The fine breakdown.
-------------------------------1st-----2nd-----3rd-----4th-----5th-----Total
Christy Mathewson-------------7(35)---4(16)---2(6)----2(4)----4(4)-----65
Tom Seaver--------------------7(35)---3(12)---1(3)----3(6)----3(3)-----59
Randy Johnson-------------------0-----5(20)---3(9)----2(4)----2(2)-----35
Roger Clemens-----------------2(10)---1(4)----4(12)-----0-----2(2)-----28
Warren Spahn-------------------0-----1(4)----4(12)---5(10)----2(2)----28
Satchel Paige--------------------0-----3(12)---3(9)----3(6)-----0-------27
Pedro Martinez-----------------3(15)---1(4)----1(3)----2(4)----1(1)-----27
Smokey Joe Williams-------------0------0-------1(3)----2(4)----1(1)-----8
Bob Feller----------------------1(5)----0--------0-------0------1(1)-----6
Kid Nichols----------------------0------1(4)------0-------0-----2(2)-----6
Sandy Koufax-------------------0------1(4)------0-------0-------0------4
Bob Gibson----------------------0-------0------1(3)------0------0-------3
Steve Carlton-------------------0-------0-------0-------1(2)-----0------2
Bob Caruthers-------------------0------0--------0--------0-----1(1)-----1
Mordecai Brown-----------------0-------0-------0---------0----1(1)-----1
--------------------------------------------------------------------------
Round 7.---Round 7

---------------------1st-----2nd----3rd-----4th------5th-----Totals
1. Tom Seaver------30(6)---24(6)--12(4)---2(1)----4(4)-------72
2. Warren Spahn----10(2)---24(6)---9(3)--12(6)------0--------55
3. Roger Clemens----35(7)----8(2)----0-----4(2)----6(6)-------53
4. Satchel Paige-----20(4)---12(4)--12(4)----0-------0--------48
5. Randy Johnson----5(1)----8(2)---15(3)---4(2)----2(2)-------34
6. Pedro Martinez----5(1)----4(1)----3(1)----6(3)-----0--------18
7. Bob Gibson---------0-----4(1)-----3(1)----4(2)---1(1)-------13
8. Sandy Koufax------0-------0------9(3)-----0------1(1)------10
9. Kid Nichols---------5(1)----0-------0------2(1)-----0---------7
10. Bob Feller---------0-------0-------0------2(1)----3(3)-------5
11. Nolan Ryan--------0-------0-------0------2(1)----1(1)-------3
11. Steve Carlton-----0--------0------0--------0-----3(3)-------3
13. Amos Rusie-------0---------0------0------2(1)------0--------2
13. Ed Walsh---------0---------0------0------2(1)------0--------2
13. Joe Rogan--------0---------0------0------2(1)------0--------2
-------------------------------------------------------------------
Round 8.---Round 8.


	
	
Fname		Lname		First	Second	Third	Fourth	Fifth	Total
Roger		Clemens		9	1	2	5	0	65
Randy		Johnson		1	4	7	1	2	46
Warren		Spahn		2	5	4	1	1	45
Satchel		Paige		3	6	0	2	1	44
Pedro		Martinez	3	1	1	2	2	28
Bob		Feller		0	0	1	3	5	14
Sandy		Koufax		1	2	0	0	1	14
Kid		Nichols		1	0	0	3	3	14
Bob		Gibson		0	1	1	0	2	9
Smokey Joe	Williams	0	0	2	1	0	8
Steve		Carlton		0	0	0	1	1	3
Nolan		Ryan		0	0	1	0	0	3
Mariano		Rivera		0	0	0	1	0	2
Whitey		Ford		0	0	0	0	1	1
Juan		Marichal	0	0	0	0	1	1

Round 9.---Round 9

Fname		Lname		First	Second	Third	Fourth	Fifth	Total
Randy		Johnson		5	5	3	3	1	61
Warren		Spahn		3	8	3	2	0	60
Satchel		Paige		7	3	3	1	0	58
Pedro		Martinez	4	3	2	3	1	45
Kid		Nichols		1	1	4	1	7	30
Bob		Feller		1	0	2	5	2	23
Bob		Gibson		0	0	1	2	4	11
Steve		Carlton		0	0	0	3	1	7
Smokey Joe	Williams	0	0	2	0	0	6
Mariano		Rivera		0	1	0	0	0	4
Sandy		Koufax		0	0	1	0	0	3
Juan		Marichal	0	0	0	0	2	2
Amos		Rusie		0	0	0	1	0	2
Three Finger	Brown		0	0	0	0	1	1
Carl		Hubbell		0	0	0	0	1	1
Nolan		Ryan		0	0	0	0	1	1

Round 10.

Fname		Lname		First	Second	Third	Fourth	Fifth	Total
Warren		Spahn		9	5	3	1	1	77
Satchel		Paige		8	4	1	0	0	59
Pedro		Martinez	3	3	3	1	1	39
Bob		Feller		1	1	5	3	1	31
Kid		Nichols		0	4	0	6	2	30
Bob		Gibson		0	1	3	4	5	26
Steve		Carlton		0	0	2	3	0	12
Sandy		Koufax		0	2	1	0	1	12
Smokey Joe	Williams	0	1	2	0	0	10
Carl		Hubbell		0	0	1	1	2	7
Amos		Rusie		0	0	1	1	0	5
Juan		Marichal	0	0	0	0	4	4
Nolan		Ryan		0	0	0	1	1	3
Three Finger	Brown		0	0	0	0	2	2
Tim		Keefe		0	0	0	0	1	1

Round 11.

Fname		Lname		First	Second	Third	Fourth	Fifth	Total
Satchel		Paige		10	4	1	0	0	69
Pedro		Martinez	3	6	1	1	2	46
Bob		Feller		3	2	6	0	3	44
Kid		Nichols		3	1	4	2	4	39
Bob		Gibson		0	2	2	6	3	29
Carl		Hubbell		0	1	2	2	3	17
Steve		Carlton		0	2	2	1	0	16
Smokey Joe	Williams	1	1	1	0	0	12
Sandy		Koufax		0	1	0	1	1	7
Three Finger	Brown		0	0	0	2	2	6
Nolan		Ryan		0	0	1	1	0	5
Juan		Marichal	0	0	0	2	0	4
Tim		Keefe		0	0	0	1	1	3
Eddie		Plank		0	0	0	1	0	2
Gaylord		Perry		0	0	0	0	1	1

Round 12.

Fname		Lname		First	Second	Third	Fourth	Fifth	Total
Pedro		Martinez	8	3	0	3	1	59
Bob		Feller		5	6	0	2	4	57
Bob		Gibson		1	5	4	5	1	48
Kid		Nichols		3	1	4	3	2	39
Steve		Carlton		0	2	2	3	2	22
Carl		Hubbell		0	0	5	1	1	18
Smokey Joe	Williams	1	1	1	2	0	16
Sandy		Koufax		0	1	1	0	2	9
Three Finger	Brown		1	0	0	0	3	8
Tim		Keefe		0	1	0	1	1	7
Juan		Marichal	0	0	2	0	0	6
Bob		Caruthers	1	0	0	0	0	5
Nolan		Ryan		0	0	1	0	0	3
Eddie		Plank		0	0	0	0	2	2
Gaylord		Perry		0	0	0	0	1	1

Round 13

Fname		Lname		First	Second	Third	Fourth	Fifth	Total
Bob		Feller		6	2	3	3	3	56
Bob		Gibson		3	4	4	2	4	51
Kid		Nichols		5	1	3	3	1	45
Carl		Hubbell		0	4	1	3	3	28
Steve		Carlton		0	3	3	1	1	24
Smokey Joe	Williams	2	1	2	0	4	24
Sandy		Koufax		0	4	1	0	0	19
Three Finger	Brown		2	1	0	1	1	17
Juan		Marichal	0	0	2	1	1	9
Nolan		Ryan		1	0	0	0	1	6
Ed		Walsh		1	0	0	0	1	6
Whitey		Ford		0	0	0	2	0	4
Tim		Keefe		0	0	0	2	0	4
Addie		Joss		0	0	1	0	0	3
Mariano		Rivera		0	0	0	1	0	2
Robin		Roberts		0	0	0	1	0	2
Bob		Caruthers	0	0	0	0	0	0
Gaylord		Perry		0	0	0	0	0	0
Eddie		Plank		0	0	0	0	0	0

Round 14

Fname		Lname		First	Second	Third	Fourth	Fifth	Total
Bob		Gibson		5	3	3	4	1	55
Smoky Joe	Williams	6	1	3	3	1	50
Kid		Nichols		3	4	3	0	2	42
Steve		Carlton		1	3	3	0	3	29
Carl		Hubbell		0	1	3	4	2	23
Juan		Marichal	0	2	1	0	2	13
Three Finger	Brown		1	1	1	0	0	12
Sandy		Koufax		0	2	1	0	1	12
Whitey		Ford		0	1	0	1	0	6
Mariano		Rivera		1	0	0	0	1	6
Nolan		Ryan		1	0	0	0	1	6
Robin		Roberts		0	0	0	2	0	4
Phil		Niekro		0	0	0	1	1	3
Tim		Keefe		0	0	0	1	0	2
Jim		Palmer		0	0	0	1	0	2
Gaylord		Perry		0	0	0	1	0	2
John		Clarkson	0	0	0	0	1	1
Amos		Rusie		0	0	0	0	1	1
Johan		Santana		0	0	0	0	1	1

Round 15

Fname		Lname		First	Second	Third	Fourth	Fifth	Total
Kid		Nichols		5	6	2	1	0	57
Smoky Joe	Williams	5	3	3	2	0	50
Steve		Carlton		6	1	3	1	3	48
Carl		Hubbell		0	3	4	2	0	28
Three Finger	Brown		2	0	2	1	1	19
Juan		Marichal	0	2	0	2	3	15
Whitey		Ford		0	1	1	1	2	11
Sandy		Koufax		0	1	1	1	0	9
Nolan		Ryan		1	0	0	1	1	8
Tim		Keefe		0	1	1	0	0	7
Mariano		Rivera		0	1	0	1	0	6
Gaylord		Perry		0	0	0	2	1	5
Robin		Roberts		0	0	0	1	3	5
Phil		Niekro		0	0	1	0	1	4
Addie		Joss		0	0	0	1	1	3
Johan		Santana		0	0	1	0	0	3
John		Clarkson	0	0	0	0	2	2
Jim		Palmer		0	0	0	1	0	2
Amos		Rusie		0	0	0	1	0	2
Bullet		Rogan		0	0	0	0	1	1

[Bill Burgess]

Pitchers Form Chart:

Pre - 1900: Tim Keefe, John "Monte" Ward, Bob Caruthers, John Clarkson, Jim "Pud" Galvin, Mickey Welch, Sadie McMahon, Jim McCormick, Charlie "Old Hoss" Radbourne, Amos Rusie, Jim Whitney, Larry Corcoran, Clark Griffith, Al Spalding, Charlie Ferguson, Tony Mullane, Silver King, Bobby Mathews, Tommy Bond, Jim Creighton, Gus Weyhing, Jack Stivetts, Will White, Ted Breitenstein, Adonis Terry, Will White, Charlie Buffington, Bill Hutchison, Guy Hecker, Terry Larkin, George Bradley, Fred Goldsmith, Ed Morris, Dave Foutz, Toad Ramsey, Jim Devlin, Matt Kilroy, Ben Sanders, Elton Chamberlain.

1900-1930: Rube Waddell, Mordecai Brown, Addie Joss, Ed Walsh, Eddie Plank, Joe McGinnity, Chief Bender, Ed Reulbach, Nap Rucker, Wilbur Cooper, Deacon Phillippe, Dazzy Vance, Stan Coveleski, Herb Pennock, Carl Mays, Ed Cicotte, Bill Dinneen, Ted Lyons, Eppa Rixey, Vic Willis, Hippo Vaughn, Dutch Leonard, Urban Shocker, Burleigh Grimes, Doc White, Nick Altrock, Sam Jones, Jack Coombs, Joe Wood, Jack Chesbro, Jim Bagby, Bullet Joe Bush, Waite Hoyt, Red Faber, Bob Shawkey, Ray Caldwell, Ray Collins, George Mogridge, Earl Hamilton, George Uhle, Eddie Rommel, Dolph Luque.

1930-1960: Dizzy Dean, Carl Hubbell, Whitey Ford, Robin Roberts, Wes Ferrell, Bob Lemon, Lefty Gomez, Hal Newhouser, Red Ruffing, Bucky Walters, Early Wynn, Billy Pierce, Don Newcombe, Tommy Bridges, Lon Warneke, Mel Harder, Bob Turley, Harry Breechen and Bobby Shantz.

1960-1980: Nolan Ryan, Gaylord Perry, Steve Carlton, Sandy Koufax, Juan Marichal, Phil Niekro, Jim "Catfish" Hunter, Ferguson Jenkins, Wilbur Wood, Don Drysdale, Jim Bunning, Mickey Lolich, Luis Tiant, Sparky Lyle, Tommy John, Jim Kaat, Bert Blyleven, Lew Burdette, Curt Simmons, Harvey Haddix, Johnny Antonelli, Vern Law, Bob Purkey, Johnny Podres, Joe Nuxhall, Ron Perranoski, Bob Veale, Dick Ellsworth, Jim Maloney, Chris Short, Bob Friend, Jim Palmer, Milt Pappas, Jerry Koosman, Dock Ellis, Sam McDowell, Jim 'Mudcat' Grant.

1980-Present: Curt Schilling, Jack Morris, Kevin Brown, John Smoltz, Mike Mussina, Tom Glavine, Dave Stieb, Johan Santana.

Negro Leagues:
"Smokey Joe" Williams, (1905-1932)
Wilbur "Bullet Joe" Rogan, (1917-1938)
"Cannonball" Dick Redding, (1911-1938)
Dave Brown, (1918-1925)
Andrew "Rube" Foster, (1902-1926)
Bill 'Willie' Foster, (1923-1938)
Ray Brown (1930-1948)
Hilton Smith (1932-1948
Jesse 'Nip" Winters (1920-1933)
Will 'Cannonball' Jackman (1925-1936)
Jose Mendez (1908-1926)
John Donaldson (1913-1934)
Walter Ball (1903-1923)

[Bill Burgess]

My Slate of Candidates for this round. Numbers following indicate where Bill James ranked them in 2001.

1. Smokey Joe Williams, 13
2. Juan Marichal 21
3. Mordecai Brown 15
4. Nolan Ryan 24
5. Addie Joss 80

Next up.

Amos Rusie 28
Rube Waddell
Sandy Koufax 12
Steve Carlton 15
Eddie Plank
"Bullet Joe" Rogan (Neg L)
Dazzy Vance

Might I persuade any of you guys to consider voting in our other polls?

11th Greatest Hitter

42th Greatest Player

Wagner/Mays?

I would consider it a great favor if you did.

[PVNICK]

Steve Carlton
Juan Marichal
Smokey Joe Williams
John Clarkson
Mordecai Brown

Keefe, Koufax, Hubbell, Phil Niekro are coming up

[nerfan]

1. Steve Carlton
2. Smokey Joe Williams
3. Robin Roberts
4. Gaylord Perry
5. Carl Hubbell

Coming soon: Phil Niekro

[RyanExpress30]

1 Ryan
2 Koufax
3 Carlton
4 Rivera
5 Ford

[BigRon]

1. Steve Carlton
2. Carl Hubbell
3. Juan Marichal
4. Phil Niekro
5. Sandy Koufax

Right around number 20 I see a number of top candidates. In addition to my choice, Koufax, there are Mordecai Brown, Robin Roberts, Ford, maybe Perry, also guys like Vance and Palmer.

As usual I don't know what to do with Negro Leaguers and 19th c. guys.

[Surf-Bat]

Mordecai "Three Finger" Brown
Carl Hubbell
SJ Williams
Juan Marichal
Whitey Ford

[AstrosFan]

Williams
Carlton
Hubbell
Roberts
Niekro

[CTaka]

1. Carlton
2. Hubbell
3. Williams
4. Marichal
5. Clarkson

[Eastvanmungo]

1. Smokey Joe Williams
2. Carl Hubbell
3. Sandy Koufax
4. Steve Carlton
5. Juan Marichal

[ItsOnlyGil]

1. Mordecai Brown
2. Smoky Joe Williams
3. Bob Caruthers
4. Sandy Koufax
5. Nolan Ryan


Ryan the only player to be immortalized on a genuine US Mint coin

[Paul Wendt]

Little separates the accomplishments of Carlton, Niekro, and Perry as pitchers. By ERA+ Perry was a little better, about two points for his entire major league career (117) or for his best span of 4000 innings (125). Carlton was much superior as a batter (and Niekro clearly superior to Perry), which is the main reason I have dropped Niekro below Carlton this month.

Clarkson was the greatest pitcher before 1893 and 60'6". His ranking expresses my sympathy for all those umpires who didn't catch Perry up to any shenanigans.

1 Williams
2 Carlton
3 Niekro
4 Clarkson
5 Perry

Hubbell, Roberts, Ford, Marichal? I need to be convinced.

[BigRon]

Hubbell, Roberts, Ford, Marichal? I need to be convinced.

It would be worthwhile to know who you prefer to any of the above 4, and why, before any "convincing" is attempted.

[STLCards2]

1. Carlton
2. Perry
3. Ryan
4. Williams
5. Niekro

Next: Blyleven, Hubbell, Clarkson

[Paul Wendt]

>Hubbell, Roberts, Ford, Marichal? I need to be convinced.

It would be worthwhile to know who you prefer to any of the above 4, and why, before any "convincing" is attempted.

Many others have named Hubbell, Roberts, Ford, and Marichal. (Brown, Hubbell, Ford, and Marichal are the current leaders among those who are not on my own ballot. I overlooked Brown or confused him with Roberts in writing a couple days ago.)

Those I prefer for the top twenty are the runners up on my current ballot: Clarkson from the 1880s; Carlton, Niekro, and Perry from the 1970s. The obvious arguments against them may be that it is a mistake to put so many early pitchers in the top twenty (Clarkson makes one) and that it is a mistake to take so many 1970s pitchers (the trio makes four or five contemporaries with Seaver and perhaps Gibson).

My argument for the trio is essentially that they accomplished so much quantity and that their performances are almost impossible to distinguish. I'm sensitive to the question, is it plausible that one generation provided so many of the very best? But it seems "impossible" to me that many pitchers may be slotted between Carlton, Niekro, and Perry.

If one must be negative, my arguments against Brown and Ford are everyone's arguments against them; the only question is how much weight to give those arguments. Their season workloads were relatively light, their careers only medium long, and they benefited extremely from good team fielding support.

Marichal shares the medium-L career and he doesn't start with the gaudy ERA+ that grabs attention for Brown and Ford. It's a surprise to me that he should be mentioned at this stage. If he gets credit as the first great pitcher from Latin America, he gets discredit for hitting Roseboro over the head with a baseball bat. I suspect that we are asked to set aside both points here.(?)

--
By the way, the Hall of Merit last week completed rank-order voting for the top twenty pitchers who retired before 2003. They put Feller, Hubbell, and Clarkson clearly behind Carlton but clearly ahead of Roberts, Niekro, and Perry. In terms of this series which has already named the big four recent pitchers, that is Carlton at #16; Feller 17 (with Williams in his place up ahead); Hubbell and Clarkson at 18/19; Roberts, Niekro, and Perry at ranks 20/21/22; then a gap that is exceptionally clear unless some post-2003 pitchers fill it. The slashes mean too close to call one by one.

[Paul Wendt]

the Hall of Merit last week completed rank-order voting for the top twenty pitchers who retired before 2003.

Here is a link to the official results thread, which was not available last week.
Hall of Merit pitchers ranking, based on voting 1 to 20 in rank order (among 63 HOM pitchers).
The "Discussion" and "Ballot" threads for combined pitchers still show up in the sidebar. Later, check the archives.

[BigRon]

the Hall of Merit last week completed rank-order voting for the top twenty pitchers who retired before 2003.

Paul, I am astonished- and dismayed- that the Hall of Merit did not rank Juan Marichal among the TOP 38 pitchers who retired before 2003! I find this to be inconceivable, and for me at least, casts doubt upon the credibility of that group.

I respect a lot of your posts, so this is not directed principally at you. However, I saw both Marichal and Gibson pitch many times. They were both great pitchers. But to place one 11th all time and the other completely off the board is absurd. Until his arm injury due to a botched injection resulting in nerve damage, Marichal was AT LEAST Gibson's equal- in my opinion he was better, and the data seems to support that. Marichal had the greatest command of any pitcher of that era, and was universally feared by other teams. Gibson got the glare of the World Series spotlight and performed admirably, and he had one amazing outlier season- all to his credit. But, he wasn't better than Marichal and that is not just my opinion. Baseball people, pundits, and fans of the time viewed them as equals- behind only Sandy Koufax.

By the way, at that time I was a diehard Dodger fan and was appalled by Marichal's bat incident. I thought he got off too lightly at the time, but that incident does nothing to diminish his record or performance.

I know this has been talked about before in another thread, but I'm forced to comment in light of the ratings you posted.

[Greg Maddux's Biggest Fan]

Steve Carlton
Carl Hubbell
Whitey Ford
Three Finger Brown
Jim Palmer

[brett]

Ryan is tough to sort out.

He projects to actually a much better 340-276 record just if we give him AVERAGE RUN SUPPORT using pythag methods and not even worrying about bumping up no-decisions.

Adjusting no-decisions would give him another 9 wins making his record 349-276.

If we gave him the defensive adjustments and ballpark and pullpen adjustments that SABRMatt estimates, his record jumps to 371-245 (this doesn't tend to help turning no-decisions into wins).

On the other hand, Matt does not account for situational pitching.

With the bases empty (12904 plate apps), he allowed .191/.298/.279
With men on base (9665 plate apps), he allowed .221/.320/.325

How do we account for that? All time greats typically get hit 3-5% worse with runners on base over a long career, but he got hit about 13% worse in terms of OPS+ (than overall rates).

My working model is that with all of the positive adjustments and the negative effect of pitching with runners on base, Ryan's effective ERA+ is somewhere between 114.5 and 120

[brett]

M Brown's and Jim Palmer's and also Addie Joss' defenses helped them substantially-like near 10 points of ERA+ but did they "let" them by allowing more contact?

Hubbell does not look much better than Schilling, Smoltz, K. Brown, if we adjust a little for league depth. Where does he fit in?

[bob]

1. Ryan
2. Brown
3. Marichal
4. Carlton
5. Williams

[Paul Wendt]

Paul, I am astonished- and dismayed- that the Hall of Merit did not rank Juan Marichal among the TOP 38 pitchers who retired before 2003! I find this to be inconceivable, and for me at least, casts doubt upon the credibility of that group.

I expect to say more about these pitchers as they turn up here in the BBF series, primarily in the 20s ranks, I suppose.

For now,

1.
The Hall of Merit Pitcher Rankings (thread for election results and aftermath discussion) is official but it doesn't officially identify the #20 pitcher must less #38. --or I should say they are merely the twentieth and thirty-eight place finishers in a contest where voters all ranked #1 to #20.

In advance I suggested that the top fifteen should be considered official rankings but interpretation is officially left to the reader. In fact the huge gap between #18 and #19 in the official scores shows clearly to me that readers should be confident about the eighteen. If the ballot were 15-deep or 25-deep or the scoring system were revised (with the same voters), it is likely that the same eighteen pitchers would have the highest scores.

The aftermath discussion focuses on this issue in conjunction with Robin Roberts #16 and Ferguson Jenkins #37.


2.
All of the HOM rankings have been generated by elections with about one-third to one-half the participation of the annual elections that determine membership. (17 versus about 50 in this case)


3.
Ron continued,
>>
I saw both Marichal and Gibson pitch many times. They were both great pitchers. But to place one 11th all time and the other completely off the board is absurd.
<<

This here series of BBF polls has ranked Gibson #14 behind the recent big four and nine others, hence #10 among those eligible at the Hall of Merit!

On the other hand, the Hall of Merit ranking of pitchers 1959-1984+, which attracted more voters and covers all twenty from the period who have been elected, does place Marichal fourth among the also-rans in the combined election (Blyleven, Palmer, Jenkins, Marichal, Koufax, Ryan). In a bigger combined ranking by HOM voters, which seemed to give valid results down to thirty, he would probably finish in the mid- or high twenties. That would still be far behind Gibson.

[BigRon]

This here series of BBF polls has ranked Gibson #14 behind the recent big four and nine others, hence #10 among those eligible at the Hall of Merit!

On the other hand, the Hall of Merit ranking of pitchers 1959-1984+, which attracted more voters and covers all twenty from the period who have been elected, does place Marichal fourth among the also-rans in the combined election (Blyleven, Palmer, Jenkins, Marichal, Koufax, Ryan). In a bigger combined ranking by HOM voters, which seemed to give valid results down to thirty, he would probably finish in the mid- or high twenties. That would still be far behind Gibson.

Just so it's clear- I AM NOT lobbying to have Marichal placed basically equivalent to Gibson. While I firmly believe that through 1969 Marichal was very slightly better than Gibson, Gibson post-69 had 3 more real quality seasons plus a couple of other okay ones. After 69 Marichal had only one more real quality season plus a couple of okay ones.

That in my mind is enough to tip the overall balance in favor of Gibson by more than a few spots. Keep in mind, however that for both, their careers through 1969 DID mark the bulk of their playing time and greatness.

Everyone's got their own system. I see Gibson at around number 12 alltime and Marichal in the low 20s. That acknowledges the difference late in their careers that gives Gibson bigger counting numbers and a small edge in several rate stats. A larger gap than that does a great disservice to Marichal, who, through much of his career, was Gibson's equal if not his slight superior.

Gibson 59-69
167-110
2.76
2522 IP
1.158 WHIP
134 ERA+

Marichal 60-69
191-88
2.57
2550 IP
1.045 WHIP
136 ERA+

with similarly effective teams. Gibson's teams of the 60s were well known for their defensive prowess.

[9RoyHobbsRF]

copied from another thread (comparing Marichal- Gibson 1960-69)


______________________________________________

MVP votes / rank

1962 Marichal 22
1963 Marichal 11
1964 Marichal 15 Gibson 23
1965 Marichal 9
1966 Marichal 6
1967 Gibson 22
1968 Gibson 1 Marichal 5
1969 Marichal 23 Gibson 30

Marichal had 6 season where he was voted higher in MVP polls
Gibson had 2 where he was rated higher


Gibson vs Marichal ERA year by year 1960-1969

1960 Marichal 2.66 Gibson 5.81. edge Marichal, Marichal leads 1-0
1961 Gibson 3.24 Marichal 3.89 edge Gibson, tied 1-1
1962 Gibson 2.85 Marichal 3.35 edge Gibson, Gibson leads 2-1
1963 Marichal 2.41, Gibson 3.39, edge Marichal, tied 2-2
1964 Marichal 2.48, Gibson 3.01. edge Marichal Marichal leads 3-2
1965 Marichal 2.13, Gibson 3.07 edge Marichal, Marichal leads 4-2
1966 Marichal 2.23, Gibson 2.44 edge Marichal, Marichal leads 5-2
1967 Marichal 2.76 Gibson 2.98 edge Marichal, Marichal leads 6-2
1968 Gibson 1.12, Marichal 2.43, edge Gibson Marichal leads 6-3
1969 Marichal 2.10 Gibson 2.18 edge Marichal, Marichal leads 7-3



In the period 1960-1969, apparently someone said Marichal and Gibson were razor thin in win shares

I looked up their records vs the top two opponents they could face in the league (In 1969 I chose for Gibson top two NL East and for Marichal top two NL West) and for 1964 Marichal had 3 teams included as Phi/Cin finished in a tie for second

the results:

Gibson built up his record against the weak teams in the league and was poor vs the top teams in the league

Marichal was superb against he top teams in the league

Gibson was 25-42 (.373)
Marichal was 48-23 (.786)

Marichal had winning records 7 of 10 years (the other three were ties)
Gibson had losing records 8 of 10 years (the other two he was 3-2 and 4-2)

GIBSON
1960 (3-6) 2-3
1961 (13-12) 4-6
1962 (15-12) 3-2
1963 (18-9) 4-2
1964 (19-12) 3-4
1965 (20-12) 3-5
1966 (21-12) 0-7
1967 (13-7) 1-3
1968 (22-9) 3-4
1969 (20-13) 2-6 - NLE

Totals:
when facing the best two opponents Gibson was 25-42 (.373)

MARICHAL
1960 (6-2) 2-0
1961 (13-10) 4-4
1962 (18-11) 5-3
1963 (25-8) 6-4
1964 (21-8) 5-5
1965 (22-13) 5-2
1966 (25-6) 7-0
1967 (14-10) 2-2
1968 (26-9) 7-1
1969 (21-11) 5-2 - NLW

TOTALS
when facing best two opponents Marichal was 48-23 (.786)

__________________________________

now all stats considered, which pitcher would you choose head to head year by year 1960-1971?

Me: Marichal 7, Gibson 3, tie 2

1960 Marichal
1961 Marichal
1962 Gibson
1963 Marichal
1964 Marichal
1965 Marichal
1966 Marichal
1967 tie (Marichal lower ERA, more wins, Gibson better win %, better misc stats)
1968 Gibson
1969 tie (Marichal had better ERA, better WL record in a hitters park vs Gibson in a pitchers park)
1970 Gibson
1971 Marichal

___________________________________________

Gibson quote from book: Stranger To The Game

Again, I will point out that several things made me research this, including Gibson's own autobiography when he slammed Koufax and said "beating Marichal twice in the first week of the 1967 season settles who is the best pitcher in baseball now that Koufax retired."

This was after Marichal went 25-6 in 1966 and Gibson went 21-12

and Marichal going 22-13 in 1965 and Gibson going 20-12

and Marichal going 21-8 in 1964 and Gibson going 19-12

and Marichal going 25-8 in 1963 and Gibson going 18-9

and Marichal going 18-11 in 1962 and Gibson going 15-13

and Marichal going 13-10 in 1961 and Gibson going 13-12

and Marichal going 6-2 in 1960 and Gibson going 3-6

anybody can see Bob was clearly a better pitcher, it isn't even close.

note The Cardinals finished ahead of the Giants in 60, 63 and 64


Gibson's 13 shutouts compared to other seasons of 10 or more shutouts

The last person to pitch at least 10 shutouts in one season was John Tudor in 1985 (10).

Since 1916, only 9 other pitchers have done this.

1975 Jim Palmer (10)
1968 Bob Gibson (13)
1965 Juan Marichal (10)
1964 Dean Chance (11)
1963 Sandy Koufax (11)
1948 Bob Lemon (10)
1946 Bob Feller (10)
1942 Mort Cooper (10)
1933 Carl Hubbell (10)


Although Gibson's 13 leads the list, in the context of the leagues they played in, based on total number of complete game shutouts, his % of shutouts to the league was the least impressive.

1. Lemon 14.3% (in other words Lemon pitched 14.3% of all the league's complete game shutouts).
2. Cooper 11.2%
3. Tudor 10.8%
4. Chance 10.2%
5. Feller 9.9%
6. Marichal 9.7%
7. Koufax 8.9%
7. Hubbell 8.9%
9. Palmer 8.6%
10. Gibson 8.3%

In the NL in 1968, there were 156 complete game shutouts and with team shutouts a total of 185, in 810 games. A phenomenal 21.3% of all NL games in 1968 were shutouts. For comparison purposes in 1965, the NL had 15.3 of its games result in a shutout and just 103 games being complete game shutouts.

Based on league context, Marichal's 10 shutouts in 1965 was more impressive than Gibson's 13 in 1968


______________________
Summary


In 1970 Marichal became seriously ill after a penicillin reaction and nearly died, he never was the same after that


How Gibson vaults to an all time top ten and Marichal falls to way down the list escapes me

and always will