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Thread: The Collaboration Game v2.0 – A New Ranking: Election #21

  1. #1
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    The Collaboration Game v2.0 – A New Ranking: Election #21

    Here is a link to the last election.

    Note that we are now voting for 9 (NINE) players in the run-off.
    ======================================
    This is the official Roster of Voters who are eligible to vote in this election:

    Brad Harris
    dgarza
    Freakshow
    gman5431
    jalbright
    jjpm74
    John Shoemaker
    leecemark
    mwiggins
    Paul Wendt
    Sockeye
    STLCards2


    If anyone else would like to join in and vote, go to the introductory thread and apply; you're in if there are no objections from any current voters. Also refer to that thread for a fuller understanding of the rules, especially posts #1, #24 and #28.
    ======================================
    Each voter must do three things:

    1) Rank these 18 players in order. As always, players should be ranked based on hall of fame criteria, the sum of all their contributions to the game. Exception: Players whom the hall of fame has (or will be) elected as managers or other contributors (McGraw, Griffith, Torre, Spalding, Rube Foster, etc.) should be ranked only on the contribution from their playing. Active players should be ranked on their value to date, not projecting them to how you think they will end up.:
    Code:
    Rank			        WARP1	WARP3	Peak	WSh	Peak
    238	Jim	Edmonds		78.4	82.5	8.8	293	29.2
    182	Sammy	Sosa		69.3	69.6	7.7	322	32.0
    225	Harry	Stovey		60.6	56.1	6.3	265	26.2
    226	Dwight	Evans		71.4	70.5	6.7	347	27.0
    245	Pie	Traynor		69.4	63.9	6.4	274	24.8
    239	Jose	Mendez						
    197	Darrell	Evans		65.6	62.1	6.2	363	28.4
    234	Bobby	Wallace		80.2	72.8	7.0	345	24.4
    247	George	Gore		65.0	76.6	8.1	250	25.0
    218	Bill	Foster					254	27.6
    216	Ken	Boyer		60.8	62.0	6.8	279	26.8
    235	Charlie	Bennett		58.7	70.2	8.2	157	16.0
    252	Bob	Lemon		62.1	64.7	8.2	232	26.2
    243	Earl	Averill		55.1	49.8	6.1	280	29.2
    251	Jimmy	Wynn		73.2	68.2	8.3	305	31.8
    260	Albert	Belle		54.0	61.9	8.9	243	29.8
    255	Todd	Helton		57.5	58.6	7.3	261	29.4
    221	Bill	Freehan		66.7	57.6	6.5	268	27.6
    2) Next to each name, mark Yes (Y) or No (N) in answer to this question: Can you tolerate this player being ranked among #228-242 on the all-time list?

    This is not quite the same as asking “Do you think this player belongs in this group?”; it’s not Yes or No based on your personal rankings. It’s more along the lines “Can you see a good argument for placing this player among the top 242 in history?”

    A general guideline I would offer: if a player would be in the top half of your next ballot (#243-251 all-time), you should tolerate him here. Your mileage (and tolerance) may vary. As an aid to this, here are the next eight players that are assured of appearing on the next ballot:
    Code:
    261	Dale	Murphy		49.7	50.1	6.4	294	31.4
    240	Dave	Parker		61.5	58.5	7.6	327	31.2
    199	Carlos	Delgado		59.2	62.4	6.5	298	29.4
    256	Nellie	Fox		74.0	63.4	7.4	304	27.0
    257	Frank	Grant						
    249	Jim	Rice		57.2	55.1	6.2	282	28.4
    253	Jack	Glasscock	69.4	74.1	7.5	261	23.2
    244	Chuck	Klein		43.2	44.4	6.4	238	28.0
    3) Rank your top 9 players from this list of upcoming candidates. The top 7 from this runoff will earn a spot on the next ballot (assuming 15 are elected this time):
    Code:
    181	Rollie	Fingers		48.0	52.6	5.8	188	16.2
    254	Graig	Nettles		86.4	80.2	7.3	321	25.6
    264	Hughie	Jennings	56.0	56.5	9.8	214	30.0
    263	Bob	Caruthers	50.5	46.4	7.3	337	50.8
    230	Dickey	Pearce						
    236	Roger	Bresnahan	60.1	52.7	6.0	231	25.0
    248	Hardy	Richardson	58.1	65.2	7.1	230	23.8
    250	Pete	Browning	56.5	49.9	6.7	225	24.8
    258	Bruce	Sutter		41.0	46.8	6.3	168	21.0
    259	Clark	Griffith	53.7	58.9	7.0	273	29.6
    262	Hugh	Duffy		56.5	55.0	6.1	295	28.8
    265	Dobie	Moore					215	28.8
    266	Cal	McVey		24.7	30.4	5.5		
    267	Ray	Dandridge				265	21.0
    268	Tommy	Leach		73.6	60.0	6.1	328	28.0
    269	Vic	Willis		54.1	54.3	6.6	293	31.0
    270	Trevor	Hoffman		73.1	83.0	6.8	176	16.2
    271	Bernie	Williams	73.0	78.9	8.7	311	28.6
    272	Johan	Santana		59.7	63.6	9.7	141	22.2
    273	Joe	Sewell		71.0	62.7	7.0	277	26.4
    274	Larry	Doyle		49.7	41.7	4.8	289	28.4
    275	Thurman	Munson		63.4	57.9	7.1	206	24.0
    276	Edd	Roush		63.3	49.4	5.6	314	29.4
    277	Willard	Brown			63.5	6.0	381	31.0
    278	Alejandro Oms			65.2	6.1	397	28.7
    279	Rabbit	Maranville	65.1	49.6	4.8	302	23.6
    280	Vern	Stephens	56.5	50.5	5.7	265	28.2
    ========================================
    Notes on charts
    --The first column is their rank on the 500 Player List, v1.0.
    --Career totals of WARP1 and WARP3 from Baseball Prospectus. WARP was rescaled in late February, so it cannot be compared to prior WARP numbers.
    --Average of Top 5 years in WARP3.
    --Career total of Win Shares; unadjusted from the book.
    --Average of Top 5 years in unadjusted Win Shares.
    --Stats for Negro leaguers are adapted from their MLE’s at Baseballthinkfactory. Bill Foster appears to be similar in value to Bunning and Coveleski. Dobie Moore seems almost a match for Jennings. Dandridge looks to be short of HOF quality. Willard Brown measures up to guys like Goslin, Medwick, Magee and Wheat. Oms also shows as near that class.
    --Win shares are not really designed to measure earlier players. The numbers shown for Caruthers are likely to overrate him; OTOH, raw WS numbers for Stovey, Gore, Richardson, Bennett, Browning and Glasscock are likely too low.
    --Win shares for active players do not include the 2009 season.
    ========================================
    It is helpful to me if you only list players by their last name on your ballot (or last name, first initial). If you want to change your ballot some time after it is first posted, make a post in this thread that you have done so. Balloting will continue until everyone has voted, but not more than two weeks. I will try to get the results up as soon after this as possible.

    Discussion of the rankings, players and rules should take place in this thread. The Game is still On, so bring your arguments why you believe a player should be ranked higher or lower than he is on the 500 Player List.
    ======================================
    So far, we've ranked the following players:
    1. Babe Ruth, 2. Ty Cobb, 3. Willie Mays, 4. Honus Wagner, 5. Ted Williams, 6. Walter Johnson, 7. Hank Aaron, 8. Barry Bonds, 9. Stan Musial, 10. Mickey Mantle
    11. Lou Gehrig, 12. Rogers Hornsby, 13. Tris Speaker, 14. Oscar Charleston, 15. Cy Young, 16. Mike Schmidt, 17. Eddie Collins, 18. Greg Maddux, 19. Josh Gibson, 20. Lefty Grove
    21. Frank Robinson, 22. Joe Morgan, 23. Pete Alexander, 24. Roger Clemens, 25. Jimmie Foxx, 26. Joe DiMaggio, 27. Mel Ott, 28. Nap Lajoie, 29. Alex Rodriguez, 30. Johnny Bench
    31. Rickey Henderson, 32. Eddie Mathews, 33. Tom Seaver, 34. Satchel Paige, 35. Pop Lloyd, 36. Warren Spahn, 37. Cap Anson, 38. George Brett, 39. Yogi Berra, 40. Christy Mathewson
    41. Jackie Robinson, 42. Randy Johnson, 43. Dan Brouthers, 44. Ed Delahanty, 45. Cal Ripken, 46. Ken Griffey, Jr., 47. Kid Nichols, 48. Turkey Stearnes, 49. Arky Vaughan, 50. Carl Yastrzemski
    51. Reggie Jackson, 52. Steve Carlton, 53. Smokey Joe Williams, 54. Frank Thomas, 55. Bob Feller, 56. Pete Rose, 57. Charlie Gehringer, 58. Mike Piazza, 59. Al Kaline, 60. Wade Boggs
    61. Jeff Bagwell, 62. Sam Crawford, 63. Johnny Mize, 64. Bob Gibson, 65. Robin Yount, 66. Mickey Cochrane, 67. Roberto Clemente, 68. Duke Snider, 69. Tony Gwynn, 70. Rod Carew
    71. Pedro Martinez, 72. Craig Biggio, 73. Carl Hubbell, 74. Buck Leonard, 75. Roy Campanella, 76. Hank Greenberg, 77. Frankie Frisch, 78. Harmon Killebrew, 79. Buck Ewing, 80. Paul Waner
    81. Willie McCovey, 82. Roger Connor, 83. Martin Dihigo, 84. Eddie Murray, 85. Ernie Banks, 86. Robin Roberts, 87. Nolan Ryan, 88. Frank Baker, 89. King Kelly, 90. Gary Carter
    91. Cristobal Torriente, 92. Billy Hamilton, 93. Gaylord Perry, 94. Al Simmons, 95. Chipper Jones, 96. Sandy Koufax, 97. Tim Raines, 98. Willie Stargell, 99. Phil Niekro, 100. Ryne Sandberg
    101. Harry Heilmann, 102. Ed Walsh, 103. Ron Santo, 104. Mule Suttles, 105. Jesse Burkett, 106. Carlton Fisk, 107. Albert Pujols, 108. George Davis, 109. Roberto Alomar, 110. Eddie Plank
    111. Jim Palmer, 112. Barry Larkin, 113. Bert Blyleven, 114. Joe Cronin, 115. Tim Keefe, 116. Mark McGwire, 117. John Clarkson, 118. Dick Allen, 119. Bullet Joe Rogan, 120. Jim O'Rourke
    121. Paul Molitor, 122. Juan Marichal, 123. Whitey Ford, 124. George Wright, 125. Ivan Rodriguez, 126. Bill Dickey, 127. Dave Winfield, 128. Mordecai Brown, 129. Luke Appling, 130. Fergie Jenkins
    131. Tom Glavine, 132. Gabby Hartnett, 133. Dazzy Vance, 134. Bill Dahlen, 135. Deacon White, 136. Manny Ramirez, 137. Gary Sheffield, 138. Mariano Rivera, 139. Paul Hines, 140. Joe Jackson
    141. Alan Trammell, 142. Fred Clarke, 143. Billy Williams, 144. Larry Doby, 145. Ozzie Smith, 146. Bobby Grich, 147. Willie Wells, 148. Hal Newhouser, 149. Dennis Eckersley, 150. Louis Santop
    151. Kirby Puckett, 152. Jim Thome, 153. Hoyt Wilhelm, 154. Curt Schilling, 155. Pee Wee Reese, 156. Amos Rusie, 157. Goose Goslin, 158. Derek Jeter, 159. Joe Medwick, 160. Jud Wilson
    161. John Smoltz, 162. Brooks Robinson, 163. Minnie Minoso, 164. Rube Waddell, 165. Cool Papa Bell, 166. Mike Mussina, 167. Jimmy Collins, 168. Ross Barnes, 169. Richie Ashburn, 170. Lou Whitaker
    171. Sherry Magee, 172. Zack Wheat, 173. Lou Boudreau, 174. Ted Lyons, 175. Ray Brown, 176. Ted Simmons, 177. Billy Herman, 178. Don Sutton, 179. Red Ruffing, 180. Max Carey
    181. Enos Slaughter, 182. Don Drysdale, 183. Vladimir Guerrero, 184. Goose Gossage, 185. Jeff Kent, 186. Willie Keeler, 187. George Sisler, 188. John Ward, 189. Joe Gordon, 190. Jim Bunning
    191. Stan Coveleski, 192. Pete Hill, 193. Bid McPhee, 194. Eppa Rixey, 195. Early Wynn, 196. Joe Torre, 197. Charley Radbourn, 198. Edgar Martinez, 199. Ichiro Suzuki, 200. Rube Foster
    201. Pud Galvin, 202. Will Clark, 203. Elmer Flick, 204. Rafael Palmeiro, 205. Ralph Kiner, 206. Wes Ferrell, 207. Lou Brock, 208. Sam Thompson, 209. Joe Start, 210. Andre Dawson
    211. Al Spalding, 212. John Beckwith, 213. Orlando Cepeda, 214. Monte Irvin, 215. Heinie Groh, 216. Joe McGinnity, 217. Bill Terry, 218. Stan Hack, 219. Red Faber, 220. Kevin Brown
    221. Fred McGriff, 222. Keith Hernandez, 223. Larry Walker, 224. Ezra Sutton, 225. Bobby Doerr, 226. Dizzy Dean, 227. Tony Perez
    Eradicate, wipe out and abolish redundancy.

    Free El Duque!(and Mark Mulder) -- discover how the HOF rules are cheating this renowned member of Torre's Yankees dynasty and ask the HOF to include him on the ballot for the next BBWAA election.

  2. #2
    Join Date
    Oct 2007
    Location
    Cincinnati, Ohio
    Posts
    2,889
    1 Jose Mendez Y
    2 Earl Averill Y
    3 Bob Lemon Y
    4 Todd Helton Y
    5 Albert Belle Y
    6 Jim Edmonds Y
    7 Pie Traynor Y
    8 Jimmy Wynn Y
    9 Dwight Evans Y
    10 Darrel Evans Y
    11 Bill Foster Y
    12 Ken Boyer Y
    13 Bill Freehan Y
    14 Bobby Wallace N
    15 Sammy Sosa N
    16 Harry Stovey N
    17 Charlie Bennett N
    18 George Gore N

    G Man

  3. #3
    Join Date
    Oct 2007
    Location
    Cincinnati, Ohio
    Posts
    2,889

    Wc

    1 Ray Dandridge
    2 Alejandro Oms
    3 Willard Brown
    4 Edd Roush
    5 Rollie Fingers
    6 Thurman Munson
    7 Vern Stephens
    8 Pete Browning
    9 Trevor Hoffman

    G Man

  4. #4
    Ranked Players:

    1. Charlie Bennett Y
    2. George Gore Y
    3. Jose Mendez Y
    4. Earl Averill Y
    5. Bob Lemon Y
    6. Pie Traynor Y
    7. Dwight Evans Y
    8. Harry Stovey Y
    9. Jimmy Wynn Y
    10. Bill Freehan Y
    11. Bobby Wallace Y
    12. Darrel Evans Y
    13. Bill Foster Y
    14. Ken Boyer Y
    15. Todd Helton Y
    16. Albert Belle N
    17. Jim Edmonds N
    18. Sammy Sosa N

    Wildcard:

    1. Rabbit Maranville
    2. Roger Bresnahan
    3. Hardy Richardson
    4. Tommy Leach
    5. Trevor Hoffman
    6. Thurman Munson
    7. Edd Roush
    8. Graig Nettles
    9. Dickey Pearce

  5. #5
    Runoff - under construction :under statement:

    1 Hardy Richardson -- probable second-MVP, International Association 1878; "best centerfielder" award by New York Clipper; one of the "Big Four" 1885/86
    2 Bob Caruthers -- MVP candidate 1885 (pitcher) and 1886-87-88 (p-of); best of the St Louis Browns in World Series 1885-86-87
    3 Cal McVey
    4 Johan Santana
    :

    Today it seems right to slot Johan Santana below the three high incumbents from my ballot #20. It's unlikely that I will revise anyone else up into the top four so Santana will only move up --say, if he pitches the Mets into the playoffs as forecast.

    Two other newcomers have not yet come up for Cooperstown or for some of its shadows like the Hall of Merit.
    What do you think of
    : Bernie Williams (retired) in comparison with mediocre HOF centerfielders Hugh Duffy and Edd Roush?
    : Trevor Hoffman (active) in comparison with mediocre HOF relief pitchers Rollie Fingers and Bruce Sutter?
    Last edited by Paul Wendt; 10-07-2009 at 02:35 PM. Reason: revert and export to #9

  6. #6
    Join Date
    Mar 2005
    Location
    southeastern PA
    Posts
    14,584
    Blog Entries
    34
    1. Foster
    2. Stovey
    3. Mendez
    4. Lemon
    5. Sosa
    6. Boyer
    7. Wallace
    8. Da. Evans
    9. Gore
    10. Freehan
    11. Traynor
    12. Bennett--down to here, all are "yes" votes
    =====================================
    from here on down, all are "no" votes
    13. Dw. Evans
    14. Helton
    15. Averill
    16. Belle
    17. Wynn
    18. Edmonds


    Runoff
    1. Moore
    2. W. Brown
    3. Willis
    4. Duffy
    5. Griffith
    6. Doyle
    7. Leach
    8. Oms
    9. Sewell
    Seen on a bumper sticker: If only closed minds came with closed mouths.
    Some minds are like concrete--thoroughly mixed up and permanently set.
    A Lincoln: I don't think much of a man who is not wiser today than he was yesterday.

  7. #7
    1. Sammy Sosa
    2. Harry Stovey
    3. Todd Helton
    4. Albert Belle
    5. Earl Averill
    6. Ken Boyer
    7. Pie Traynor
    8. Jose Mendez
    9. George Gore
    10. Bob Lemon
    11. Dwight Evans
    12. Jim Edmonds - N
    13. Darrell Evans - N
    14. Bobby Wallace - N
    15. Jimmy Wynn - N
    16. Bill Freehan - N
    17. Bill Foster - N
    18. Charlie Bennett - N

    WC
    1. Hugh Duffy
    2. Trevor Hoffman
    3. Pete Browning
    4. Rollie Fingers
    5. Bernie Williams
    6. Vern Stephens
    7. Vic Willis
    8. Bob Caruthers
    9. Larry Doyle
    Last edited by dgarza; 10-01-2009 at 07:22 PM.

  8. #8
    Join Date
    Mar 2006
    Location
    Lima, Ohio
    Posts
    5,812
    Rankings

    1. Sammy Sosa Y
    2. Dwight Evans Y
    3. Todd Helton Y
    4. Jim Edmonds Y
    5. Albert Belle Y
    6. Jimmy Wynn Y
    7. Darrell Evans Y
    8. Harry Stovey Y
    9. Earl Averill Y
    10. George Gore Y
    11. Ken Boyer Y
    12. Bob Lemon N
    13. Pie Traynor N
    14. Bobby Wallace N
    15. Bill Freehan N
    16. Charlie Bennett N
    17. Jose Mendez N
    18. Bill Foster N

    Runoff

    1. Bernie Williams
    2. Vic Willis
    3. Graig Nettles
    4. Pete Browning
    5. Hugh Duffy
    6. Rollie Fingers
    7. Edd Roush
    8. Trevor Hoffman
    9. Clark Griffith
    Quote
    "A ballplayer has to just go out and be mean. You can't play half-heartedly. If you do, there's someone right over your shoulder that'll take your job away. If you don't do your job, what they're paying you for, why should they pay you? You just can't put in eight hours, that's what a lot of people don't realize about athletes. Very few people realize the pressure." Dave Kingman

  9. #9
    Final
    George Gore
    Charlie Bennett
    Jim Edmonds
    Albert Belle
    Bill Foster
    Bill Freehan
    Jimmy Wynn
    Darrell Evans
    Earl Averill
    Harry Stovey
    Bobby Wallace
    Todd Helton
    Bob Lemon
    Dwight Evans
    Jose Mendez
    Sammy Sosa
    Ken Boyer
    Pie Traynor

    Why Traynor before Leach and Nettles, who are still in the runoff? Maybe the same goes for Boyer. I can't remember how much I believe the adjustment in his favor for Korea service time. He did not "hit the ground running" in the major leagues so it's a "delayed development" case.


    Runoff
    1 Hardy Richardson
    2 Bob Caruthers
    3 Cal McVey
    4 Johan Santana
    5 Tommy Leach
    6 Hughie Jennings
    7 Bernie Williams
    8 Edd Roush
    9 Graig Nettles

    Last week I wrote in #5,
    >>
    Today it seems right to slot Johan Santana below the three high incumbents from my ballot #20. It's unlikely that I will revise anyone else up into the top four so Santana will only move up --say, if he pitches the Mets into the playoffs as forecast.

    Two other newcomers have not yet come up for Cooperstown or for some of its shadows like the Hall of Merit.
    What do you think of
    : Bernie Williams (retired) in comparison with mediocre HOF centerfielders Hugh Duffy and Edd Roush?
    : Trevor Hoffman (active) in comparison with mediocre HOF relief pitchers Rollie Fingers and Bruce Sutter?
    <<
    (There has been no comment.)

    My runoff ballot represents a conservative placement of Santana, Williams, and Hoffman, the newcomers who are not yet eligible for Cooperstown. In the runoff, of course, the crucial point is whom to include (Santana and Williams, not Hoffman) rather than the rank order.
    Last edited by Paul Wendt; 10-07-2009 at 02:46 PM.

  10. #10

    (bump)

    We have 20 shortstops but only two since Derek Jeter #158, seventy miles in the rearview mirror
    and 16 catchers but again only two since that time, Louis Santop #150.

    Firstbase is now the most represented position with 26 including eight since #200.
    Last edited by Paul Wendt; 10-19-2009 at 08:30 PM.

  11. #11

    (bump)

    Quote Originally Posted by Paul Wendt View Post
    We have 20 shortstops but only two since Derek Jeter #158, seventy miles in the rearview mirror
    and 16 catchers but again only two since that time, Louis Santop #150.

    Firstbase is now the most represented position with 26 including eight since #200.
    A. the pool of available players is now long on quality at shortstop and catcher, short on quality at firstbase
    B. several shortstops and catchers were premature selections #1-160.
    C. opinion shifted, perhaps because some friends of shortstops and catchers dropped out of participation or friends of firstbasemen have joined
    D. truly there are very few shortstops and catchers in the bottom third of a reasonable top 227 players

    I think we can rule out that plural "friends of firstbasemen have joined" but C is a disjunction (OR).

  12. #12
    Deleted...didn't realize I already posted a month ago...
    Last edited by dgarza; 11-01-2009 at 08:15 AM.

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