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Has someone been advocating pushing off of the rear foot?
Mechanics Analyst
In my opinion, the question of what the back leg and hip do when is an important one, and one that deserves to be addressed in its own thread.
My views on the role of the back leg are shaped by this clip of Pujols that show him smashing a line drive right at the second baseman.
In my opinion, this clip shows Pujols transitioning from a loaded back leg to something else. That something else is evidenced by the fact that there is no way that he is pushing off of his back foot past Frame 6, and probably sooner (given the lack of folding and creasing in his back shoe) and that there is no weight at all on his back foot beyond Frame 7 or so.
P.S. Frame 12 is the POC.
Last edited by Chris O'Leary; 09-30-2009 at 09:55 AM.
Has someone been advocating pushing off of the rear foot?
Mechanics Analyst
I don't know if I agree with the idea of the thrust, but I agree with Charley Lau Sr. that you have to go back to go forward.Originally Posted by FiveFrameSwing
Kind of.
I don't think you're just loading the muscles of the hip.
The hip moves forward and around, but it doesn't push itself. It isn't capable of pushing, due to a lack of leverage.
Mechanics Analyst
The rear hip can't just move itself.
It has to be moved by something else.
Mechanics Analyst
I think some people are trying to oversimplify the swing.
When it comes to the lower body, it's not like a single stage rocket. Rather, it's like a multi-stage rocket where one thing happens that sets up another action that in turn sets up another action.
Each stage is necessary, but not sufficient, for getting into orbit.
In one of your recent posts you acknowledged that the push from the backside had to be immediate ... as in "launch and spend". Do you still believe that this "push" should be immediate?
Of course there is more going on. But the feeling of a cocking of the rear hip is thought by many to be a focal point in training this explosive action.
The rear hip does move forward ... one may even think of it as being pushed initially, followed by later action causing the front hip to be pushed back, and one may even think of the rear hip as then being pulled forward. One may even think of the sequence as rotation.
I don't understand your comment about the hip not pushing itself. Who claimed that was happening?
Mechanics Analyst
IMO it's kind of strange to think of the back hip as anything other than a marker.
It's the equivalent of focusing on the role of the nose in the swing.
Neither one has motive power and only move as result of other actions.
Last edited by Chris O'Leary; 09-30-2009 at 08:17 AM.
Interesting. Nobody said anything about the hip pushing itself ... but you bring it up a second time. This time answering the question about who said anything about the rear foot pushing.
Is it your contention that the rear hip is pushed forward with the rear foot?
If you believe that ... then have you followed MarkH's advice to read Dixon?
If you have followed MarkH's advice, then why do you believe Dixon is wrong on this concept?
Many are familiar with the Kinetic sequence. The discussion about the drill you were posting on was on sharpening the action that initiates the hip action.
So please tell us your version of what initiates the rear hip action.
Last edited by FiveFrameSwing; 09-30-2009 at 08:56 AM.
I'm going to let you restate this.
Clearly you can't be equating the rear hip to that of the nose. But as I read your post, that's sort of what it sounds like.
Perhaps you have a theory of how muscles are loaded to fire the nose???
I'm left feeling that you sucked me into a conversation in which you weren't serious about discussing the topic of hitting.
Mechanics Analyst
Immediate relative to when?
I think the extension of the back leg gets the hips translating forward toward the pitcher. The initiation of the rotation of the hips is a very complex movement that has back side, front side, and core components.
That's fine if it works as a cue for some, but feel doesn't always match up with reality.
I don't have a problem with that.
My impression is that some people are thinking about it as more than just a marker.
Mechanics Analyst
The back hip is part of the pelvis, which is a big ol' bone.
Bones can't move themselves.
FFS,
I thought you were a Chris Yeager guy. As you know one of the tenets of his teaching is the pushing of the back foot and blocking of the front foot. Do you still believe this? These posts sound like you're not advocating that any more?
-JJA
Mechanics Analyst
I was expressing concern about the movement pattern initiated by a drill. I think the drill may encourage a back side action that is too long in duration.
Maybe I am (overly) sensitive to this because I have seen multiple people teach that incorrect back side action (pushing the hips open and around from the back side).
Some softball guys here in STL teach that you want to keep the back foot on the ground throughout the swing so that it can power the rotation of the hips. In other words, they see and understand the importance of hip rotation, but don't understand what's driving it.
These are just dad coaches, but I assume they are getting this idea from somewhere else.
It starts out from the back side but then quickly transitions into the core and the front side.
Immediate relative to when???
Didn't we already establish that you understand the kinetic sequence?
Immediate in terms of being accomplished without delay ... as in the action is initiated and the impulse is instant/immediate.
So now you are telling me that the rear leg should extend to get the hips transferring energy forward???? That advice is terrible and will rob a hitter of their main source of force generation.
Chris ... I strongly recommend that you follow MarkH's advice and "read Dixon" before posting more on this subject. You have no idea how foolish you are coming across. I say this for your own good, for the good of your students, and the good of all those that place credibility in your posts ... PLEASE READ DIXON.
Last edited by FiveFrameSwing; 09-30-2009 at 08:59 AM.
Mechanics Analyst
Maybe I'm misinterpreting the idea of loading the hip...
...but I think of loading muscle groups, and the hip isn't a muscle group.Chris, are you really saying that MLB players turn/pull their hips from their front leg, rather than explode and thrust out of their loaded rear hip? . . . or did I just read what you wrote wrong?
Yeager speaks of pushing with the back "leg" ... which includes the top inside portion of the back leg.
Who is talking about bones moving themselves?
Mechanics Analyst
One point of the stride is to create linear momentum that can then be converted into rotational momentum.
That's why both hitters and pitchers stride (and why pitchers throw off of a mound); it helps to boost the output of actions.
Even though Pujols doesn't take a big stride, he translates his hips forward toward the pitcher significantly, which helps to boost the force of the rotation.
C'mon Chris, you are back to being vague again.
You keep posting that the bones don't move themselves. Heck you've posted that about 3 or more times in this thread already.
Tell me what muscle area/action is initiating the back side action you are describing. Describe your version of the initiation process.
This drill seeks to over emphasize a particular action. In the other thread UM wrote a post explaining why this is done. IMO he explained the reasoning well.
Of course, the instructor overseeing the drill needs to make sure the student understands that this is an over-emphasis drill and be watchful of how much is taken into their swing. This is one of the reasons that I believe personal instruction can be so helpful to kids ... the feedback can cut a lot of time and improper action out of developing a good swing.
Really?
Chris, your advice to extend the rear leg was "not good" (I'm being very kind here). If you would take the time to "read Dixon" then you'll better understand why.
Yeah ... it is almost breath taking. With virtually every post he makes, I learn that he knows less than I had given him credit for.Really?
But we all have to start somewhere. Perhaps dropping the claim to be an expert would be recommended until he's up to speed.
Last edited by FiveFrameSwing; 09-30-2009 at 08:52 AM.
Mechanics Analyst
While (I assume deliberately) oversimplified, I don't think Yeager's Push, Block, Push sequence is a terrible way of describing the process.
However, I think there are probably 4 stages in the process rather than Yeager's 3 (and I think the middle stage is about more than just blocking).
1. The extension of the back knee (Yeager's first "push") gets the hips translating forward and establishes linear momentum. However, this clip shows that it doesn't get rotation going.
2. You then get into the first half of a very muscularly complicated rotational movement that is driven by both the back leg and the core and which gets its leverage from the position of the back foot on the ground.
3. Once the back foot unweights, you lose its leverage. You then get into the second half of a very muscularly complicated rotational movement that is driven by both the front leg and the core and which gets its leverage from the position of the front foot on the ground.
4. Once the front foot is planted firmly, the movement is completed by the extension of the front knee (Yeager's second "push").
You can see this basic sequence in this side view.
Last edited by Chris O'Leary; 09-30-2009 at 09:05 AM.
