Why is it you need Yeager's description to give your description?Originally Posted by 4for4
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Why is it you need Yeager's description to give your description?
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Once again, please answer the question completely. All you have done to this point is sidestep it.
Consider directing your apology to the poster that you essentially claimed was clueless.If this has come across as badgering, then I sincerely apologize.
What is your descriptor of the initiation process? I'm also curious if you will address it at a functional level.I'm asking for a description of the initiation process of what I believe Chris considers being forward hip rotation. IMO he came dangerously close and described the setup ... but the initiation process, the firing process, the action, ... was left out.
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This is really a game for you isn't it? Please answer the question about Yeager. I'm getting the sense I know why you won't. I would like to be disabused of this notion. Please take a stab at it.
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FFS,
When you write something like
when you yourself took the same exact position and defended it strongly only a year ago is really calling the kettle black. It's OK you won't admit that you know longer believe what Yeager wrote despite your strong defense of that position a short time ago. On the other hand, given this experience you might consider cutting others some slack instead of ridiculing them.
-JJA
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No ... I'm sincerely interested in various views of the initiation process for the firing of the hips.
If I understand your question correctly you want to know if rotation exists prior to front side blocking. Yes it does.
I'm not really interested in hashing out the two thoughts of both camps ... as I've already been through this and believe from a users perspective that the "forward by turning" concept and the "push" concept need not be at direct odds ... at least not from a user's perspective. I'm sure you understand Yeager's position ... that being how one could explain that the COM moves forward without pushing.
The answer is that rotation DOES occur prior to blocking ... and IMO JBooth and others have given reasonably good answers as to why. I especially like JBooth's work in this area.
Now ... please describe the muscle action for the initiation of hip rotation.
Last edited by FiveFrameSwing; 09-30-2009 at 08:57 AM.
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No ... I'm not an expert. I'm a student of the game. I'm constantly learning.
Sure ... I forgive Chris.
Let's see ... Chris recently wrote the following.
Chris O:
While he's probably doing what you want him to do in the clip above, it looks like he's trying to push the hips around from the back side, rather than the front side. While I have seen this in some fast pitch hitters, with good results, I have never seen this in major league baseball players.
I'm trying to understand the various theories for the action that initiates what some people refer to as "hip rotation".
Chris ... from this description is it your contention that there is a muscle group in the front of the body that initiates hip rotation?
Student of the game.
Here's the whole sequence from stride through POC...
Tell me if you want some frames stopped or slowed down.
Student of the game.
No.
The process starts in the back side and then transitions through the core and into the front side.
The problem is that I know some people who think it's all back side driven, with no core or front side transition.
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Show me the extension of the rear leg you are talking about. You show it from behind so it can look like anything. Do you really know what is happening, when you say he is extending? Could it be as he moves forward. The front leg is turning in and the rear glute is showing itself to the pitcher? Giving the illussion of extension. The hips are coiling/cocking/loading whatever you want to call it. It isn't a push yet. It isn't extension either.
As for the thrust. The hitter isn't trying to rotate the hips. He is trying to drive the rear hip in as straight of a line as he can. Trying to focus the energy through the ball. The rear hip pushes the front hip out of the way. You could say the front hip clears to give the rear hip some where to go but then you will get asked how does the front hip clear. The answer is the rear hip pushes it out of the way.
As has been stated the hip moves as a unit. As the rear hip is thrusted forward the front hip is driven back. This driving back of the front hip is what pulls the lead leg straight. Yes I know, how can this happen with the weight shifted to the front foot. The answer is it just does. If you are trying to time a push back with the lead leg, good luck. MLB pitching is to filthy to have to have all these different timing mechanisms going off in your head. Having to time the push back with the lead leg is one you don't want to have to worry about.
I know you will say will I don't worry about it it just happens naturally. Then I would say you don't face good pitching or you are not pushing back with the lead leg. It is just catching the transfer of weight, while remaining firm and then getting slammed shut by the hips continuos rotation. Yes I said rotation. The rear hip tries to go in as straight of line as possible but it will eventually become rotational.
Edited to say: Looking in slow mo can some times be deceiving. You can not see the explosive nature of the swing. What you see as a bunch of small moves is really one explosive move.
4x4 and JJA,
Just in time for the rescue. Jump in start a fight, so that things start to get ugly and then hopefully the thread gets closed. What a shame.
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Here's the whole sequence from stride through POC...
Tell me if you want some frames stopped or slowed down.
This may help us get to the point.
In the video clip below ... what muscle action, or body action, is initiating hip rotation.
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I'm not pushing anyone's buttons with this question.Here's the whole sequence from stride through POC...
Tell me if you want some frames stopped or slowed down.
Anyone, what causes the back foot action in frame 30 and on in this particular clip (I think it is frame 9 in the original clip).
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IMO, it is the coming down and forward of the back knee with the uncoiling of the rear hip and a PUSH OFF of the back foot against the ground. The front foot receives the energy with a firm front leg and the rear foot comes off of the ground.
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That was my thought too.
The instant I watched the clip for the first time, particularly the frames I mentioned, it reminded me of "you know who's" clip, on a website so taboo that it can't even be mentioned here, of Al Mcguiness (sp?) unleashing his slap shot.
Recall how there was a poster questioning "you know who's" contention because the rear skate was going backwards.
Matches up very well with this Pujols clip don't you think?
Imagine a hockey stick coming down for a slap shot just before the back heel comes up.
BD
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Very insightful FiveFrameSwing and HYP. You guys are good. It makes sense when you folks describe the actions. Thank you.
Team Veteran
his right buttocks "curls coils loads" and releases..This may help us get to the point.
In the video clip below ... what muscle action, or body action, is initiating hip rotation.
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That's pretty darn close to where I perceive to feel the muscle action initiating hip rotation.
Loves Puma, Hates Astros
Chris-
Show me the extension of the rear leg you are talking about. You show it from behind so it can look like anything. Do you really know what is happening, when you say he is extending? Could it be as he moves forward. The front leg is turning in and the rear glute is showing itself to the pitcher? Giving the illussion of extension. The hips are coiling/cocking/loading whatever you want to call it. It isn't a push yet. It isn't extension either.
As for the thrust. The hitter isn't trying to rotate the hips. He is trying to drive the rear hip in as straight of a line as he can. Trying to focus the energy through the ball. The rear hip pushes the front hip out of the way. You could say the front hip clears to give the rear hip some where to go but then you will get asked how does the front hip clear. The answer is the rear hip pushes it out of the way.
As has been stated the hip moves as a unit. As the rear hip is thrusted forward the front hip is driven back. This driving back of the front hip is what pulls the lead leg straight. Yes I know, how can this happen with the weight shifted to the front foot. The answer is it just does. If you are trying to time a push back with the lead leg, good luck. MLB pitching is to filthy to have to have all these different timing mechanisms going off in your head. Having to time the push back with the lead leg is one you don't want to have to worry about.
I know you will say will I don't worry about it it just happens naturally. Then I would say you don't face good pitching or you are not pushing back with the lead leg. It is just catching the transfer of weight, while remaining firm and then getting slammed shut by the hips continuos rotation. Yes I said rotation. The rear hip tries to go in as straight of line as possible but it will eventually become rotational.
Edited to say: Looking in slow mo can some times be deceiving. You can not see the explosive nature of the swing. What you see as a bunch of small moves is really one explosive move.
4x4 and JJA,
Just in time for the rescue. Jump in start a fight, so that things start to get ugly and then hopefully the thread gets closed. What a shame.
Read this post over and over again. You might actually learn something.
Then, go outside and apply what HYP is talking about to your own swing. Try to feel what you or someone else is talking about for just once.
From reading your descriptions in this thread and that fantastic one liner last night, you actually need more work than many here.
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Great ... so we know you believe the action for rotation of the hips initiates from the backside. Can you be more specific and state a general area of the backside? You earlier said the back "foot" in response to a comment. We are now clearer about the question ... that being what action initiates hip rotation. If you believe it is the rear foot, then that's your answer.
As for other folks doing things wrong ... we can't control that. All we can do is attempt to be helpful. If folks persist in doing things wrong then that is outside of our control.
Student of the game.
So in other words the back leg push is so powerful that it pushes the hips around, causing the back foot to be pulled off the ground and the front knee to extend?
I knew there were people out there who believe this, but I never thought I'd interact with one.
Needless to say, our paradigms are incommensurable.
I'll just leave it at that.
Last edited by Chris O'Leary; 09-30-2009 at 11:59 AM.
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Chris, please .... PLEASE ***READ DIXON***.
What Hyp speaks of ("As has been stated the hip moves as a unit") is well explain in Jim Dixon's book. In fact, Jim does this in a very simple and easy to understand manner. It's a great book ... and in my opinion it's well worth the $25 investment. I think you'll look at the swing differently after you read the book.
Loves Puma, Hates Astros
You keep saying "push". Nobody is talking about "pushing" the hips.
Student of the game.
So the hips just move themselves? Via telekentics?
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Got to go to lunch with my wife but I'll leave you with this. Study his lead foot in frames 29 through 33. Tell me what you see. Why is his toe on his front foot coming off the ground? why does it appear that the lead hip moving rearward is pulling him onto the heel of his front foot. Wouldn't it make sense if he was pushing back with that lead leg his foot would be more on the balls of his foot or at least stay flat.
Gotta run
Loves Puma, Hates Astros
By firing the rear hip? Go try it with a bat.
I can get 12 year olds to understand and accomplish this, but I can't get an "expert" to grasp a simple concept. Unbelievable.
Student of the game.
How does the hip fire?
We've already established that the back hip is just a big hunk of bone and is incapable of moving itself.
So what moves it?
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