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Thread: Back Leg Action

  1. #61

    Answer me this

    Quote Originally Posted by Chris O'Leary View Post
    Here's the whole sequence from stride through POC...



    Tell me if you want some frames stopped or slowed down.
    I'm not pushing anyone's buttons with this question.
    Anyone, what causes the back foot action in frame 30 and on in this particular clip (I think it is frame 9 in the original clip).

  2. #62
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bucketdad View Post
    I'm not pushing anyone's buttons with this question.
    Anyone, what causes the back foot action in frame 30 and on in this particular clip (I think it is frame 9 in the original clip).
    IMO, it is the coming down and forward of the back knee with the uncoiling of the rear hip and a PUSH OFF of the back foot against the ground. The front foot receives the energy with a firm front leg and the rear foot comes off of the ground.

  3. #63
    Quote Originally Posted by HYP View Post
    IMO, it is the coming down and forward of the back knee with the uncoiling of the rear hip and a PUSH OFF of the back foot against the ground. The front foot receives the energy with a firm front leg and the rear foot comes off of the ground.
    That was my thought too.
    The instant I watched the clip for the first time, particularly the frames I mentioned, it reminded me of "you know who's" clip, on a website so taboo that it can't even be mentioned here, of Al Mcguiness (sp?) unleashing his slap shot.
    Recall how there was a poster questioning "you know who's" contention because the rear skate was going backwards.
    Matches up very well with this Pujols clip don't you think?
    Imagine a hockey stick coming down for a slap shot just before the back heel comes up.

    BD

  4. #64
    Very insightful FiveFrameSwing and HYP. You guys are good. It makes sense when you folks describe the actions. Thank you.

  5. #65
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    Quote Originally Posted by FiveFrameSwing View Post
    This may help us get to the point.

    In the video clip below ... what muscle action, or body action, is initiating hip rotation.

    his right buttocks "curls coils loads" and releases..

  6. #66
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    Quote Originally Posted by wogdoggy View Post
    his right buttocks "curls coils loads" and releases..
    That's pretty darn close to where I perceive to feel the muscle action initiating hip rotation.

  7. #67
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    Quote Originally Posted by HYP View Post


    Show me the extension of the rear leg you are talking about. You show it from behind so it can look like anything. Do you really know what is happening, when you say he is extending? Could it be as he moves forward. The front leg is turning in and the rear glute is showing itself to the pitcher? Giving the illussion of extension. The hips are coiling/cocking/loading whatever you want to call it. It isn't a push yet. It isn't extension either.

    As for the thrust. The hitter isn't trying to rotate the hips. He is trying to drive the rear hip in as straight of a line as he can. Trying to focus the energy through the ball. The rear hip pushes the front hip out of the way. You could say the front hip clears to give the rear hip some where to go but then you will get asked how does the front hip clear. The answer is the rear hip pushes it out of the way.

    As has been stated the hip moves as a unit. As the rear hip is thrusted forward the front hip is driven back. This driving back of the front hip is what pulls the lead leg straight. Yes I know, how can this happen with the weight shifted to the front foot. The answer is it just does. If you are trying to time a push back with the lead leg, good luck. MLB pitching is to filthy to have to have all these different timing mechanisms going off in your head. Having to time the push back with the lead leg is one you don't want to have to worry about.

    I know you will say will I don't worry about it it just happens naturally. Then I would say you don't face good pitching or you are not pushing back with the lead leg. It is just catching the transfer of weight, while remaining firm and then getting slammed shut by the hips continuos rotation. Yes I said rotation. The rear hip tries to go in as straight of line as possible but it will eventually become rotational.

    Edited to say: Looking in slow mo can some times be deceiving. You can not see the explosive nature of the swing. What you see as a bunch of small moves is really one explosive move.

    4x4 and JJA,

    Just in time for the rescue. Jump in start a fight, so that things start to get ugly and then hopefully the thread gets closed. What a shame.
    Chris-

    Read this post over and over again. You might actually learn something.

    Then, go outside and apply what HYP is talking about to your own swing. Try to feel what you or someone else is talking about for just once.

    From reading your descriptions in this thread and that fantastic one liner last night, you actually need more work than many here.

  8. #68
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    Quote Originally Posted by Chris O'Leary View Post
    No.

    The process starts in the back side and then transitions through the core and into the front side.

    The problem is that I know some people who think it's all back side driven, with no core or front side transition.
    Great ... so we know you believe the action for rotation of the hips initiates from the backside. Can you be more specific and state a general area of the backside? You earlier said the back "foot" in response to a comment. We are now clearer about the question ... that being what action initiates hip rotation. If you believe it is the rear foot, then that's your answer.

    As for other folks doing things wrong ... we can't control that. All we can do is attempt to be helpful. If folks persist in doing things wrong then that is outside of our control.

  9. #69
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    Quote Originally Posted by HYP View Post
    As has been stated the hip moves as a unit. As the rear hip is thrusted forward the front hip is driven back. This driving back of the front hip is what pulls the lead leg straight.
    So in other words the back leg push is so powerful that it pushes the hips around, causing the back foot to be pulled off the ground and the front knee to extend?

    I knew there were people out there who believe this, but I never thought I'd interact with one.

    Needless to say, our paradigms are incommensurable.

    I'll just leave it at that.
    Last edited by Chris O'Leary; 09-30-2009 at 11:59 AM.
    Hitting Coordinator for Harris-Stowe State University in St. Louis.

    I also work with the pitchers who are dealing with injury problems.

  10. #70
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    Quote Originally Posted by Chris O'Leary View Post
    So in other words the back leg push is so powerful that it pushes the hips around, causing the back foot to be pulled off the ground and the front knee to extend?

    I knew there were people out there who believe this, but I never thought I'd interact with one.

    Needless to say, our paradigms are incommensurable.

    I'll just leave it at that.
    Chris, please .... PLEASE ***READ DIXON***.

    What Hyp speaks of ("As has been stated the hip moves as a unit") is well explain in Jim Dixon's book. In fact, Jim does this in a very simple and easy to understand manner. It's a great book ... and in my opinion it's well worth the $25 investment. I think you'll look at the swing differently after you read the book.

  11. #71
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    Quote Originally Posted by Chris O'Leary View Post
    So in other words the back leg push is so powerful that it pushes the hips around, causing the back foot to be pulled off the ground and the front knee to extend?

    I knew there were people out there who believe this, but I never thought I'd interact with one.

    Needless to say, our paradigms are incommensurable.

    I'll just leave it at that.
    You keep saying "push". Nobody is talking about "pushing" the hips.

  12. #72
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    Quote Originally Posted by Berkman#17 View Post
    You keep saying "push". Nobody is talking about "pushing" the hips.
    So the hips just move themselves? Via telekentics?
    Hitting Coordinator for Harris-Stowe State University in St. Louis.

    I also work with the pitchers who are dealing with injury problems.

  13. #73
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    Quote Originally Posted by Chris O'Leary View Post
    So in other words the back leg push is so powerful that it pushes the hips around, causing the back foot to be pulled off the ground and the front knee to extend?

    I knew there were people out there who believe this, but I never thought I'd interact with one.

    Needless to say, our paradigms are incommensurable.

    I'll just leave it at that.


    Got to go to lunch with my wife but I'll leave you with this. Study his lead foot in frames 29 through 33. Tell me what you see. Why is his toe on his front foot coming off the ground? why does it appear that the lead hip moving rearward is pulling him onto the heel of his front foot. Wouldn't it make sense if he was pushing back with that lead leg his foot would be more on the balls of his foot or at least stay flat.

    Gotta run

  14. #74
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    Quote Originally Posted by Chris O'Leary View Post
    So the hips just move themselves? Via telekentics?
    By firing the rear hip? Go try it with a bat.

    I can get 12 year olds to understand and accomplish this, but I can't get an "expert" to grasp a simple concept. Unbelievable.

  15. #75
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    Quote Originally Posted by Berkman#17 View Post
    By firing the rear hip? Go try it with a bat.

    I can get 12 year olds to understand and accomplish this, but I can't get an "expert" to grasp a simple concept. Unbelievable.
    How does the hip fire?

    We've already established that the back hip is just a big hunk of bone and is incapable of moving itself.

    So what moves it?
    Hitting Coordinator for Harris-Stowe State University in St. Louis.

    I also work with the pitchers who are dealing with injury problems.

  16. #76
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    Oh my. Go swing a bat and try it out.

    Apply something for once in your life.

    I've already told you how to move it.

    Now go try it.

  17. #77
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    Quote Originally Posted by 4for4 View Post
    Very good point and video. I didn't think FF5 new or understood what was being described. Courtesy of some video supplied 3 years ago by Swingtraining.net, I coined the term flex/extend/flex for this action.
    Well done.

    Last edited by LClifton; 09-30-2009 at 12:41 PM.

  18. #78
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    Quote Originally Posted by HYP View Post
    Got to go to lunch with my wife but I'll leave you with this. Study his lead foot in frames 29 through 33. Tell me what you see. Why is his toe on his front foot coming off the ground? why does it appear that the lead hip moving rearward is pulling him onto the heel of his front foot. Wouldn't it make sense if he was pushing back with that lead leg his foot would be more on the balls of his foot or at least stay flat.
    I re-cut the clip to zoom in on the lower body, without losing any clarity.



    Here's what I see...

    1. The hips stop translating forward toward the pitcher in Frame 20, so that is clearly where the sideways push stops. From that point on, the hips just rotate. I put a carat marker on the front hip to mark indicate this.

    2. In Frame 20 the hips are still closed, so it's not the sideways push that causes them to rotate. Something else does.

    3. You don't see his cleats until Frame 28, at which point his front knee is starting to extend. It is very easy to see that, because of the angles involved at that moment, this would roll him onto the outside of his front foot. This is also the result of a rotational force that is being generated in the core.

    4. Some force causes his ankle to roll between Frame 23 and Frame 24. We know that force isn't the sideways push of the back foot and it isn't momentum, because his hips don't translate and farther and the rolling of the ankle would have been visible one frame sooner. Something happened -- some muscle group fired -- in Frame 23 when his front heel planted.

    The bottom line is that you need to work with higher-quality clips if you want to come up with the correct answer.

    P.S. I'll see if a 3BL view shows this more clearly.
    Last edited by Chris O'Leary; 09-30-2009 at 01:27 PM.
    Hitting Coordinator for Harris-Stowe State University in St. Louis.

    I also work with the pitchers who are dealing with injury problems.

  19. #79
    You guys are all missing the point. The hands determine where and when the back hip fires.


    The eyes tell the hands which tells the hip where to fire the hip at.

  20. #80
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    Quote Originally Posted by Chris O'Leary View Post
    I re-cut the clip to zoom in on the lower body, without losing any clarity.



    Here's what I see...

    1. The hips stop translating forward toward the pitcher in Frame 20, so that is clearly where the sideways push stops. From that point on, the hips just rotate. I put a carat marker on the front hip to mark indicate this.

    2. In Frame 20 the hips are still closed, so it's not the sideways push that causes them to rotate. Something else does.

    3. You don't see his cleats until Frame 28, at which point his front knee is extending. It is very easy to see that, because of the angles involved. this would roll him onto the outside of his front foot.

    The bottom line is that you need to work with higher-quality clips if you want to come up with the correct answer.

    P.S. I'll see if a 3BL view shows this more clearly.

    Chris, this is more like it. I like this search for truth.

    Regarding pt #2 ... IMO there is some hip rotation (what I believe you refer to as hip rotation) occuring between frames 19 & 20. We can disagree ... but that's what I see.

    From your comment in #1 it looks like you are differentiating between a "sideways push" and a "thrust". The question ... and I think you know what I'm asking ... is what action, as close to the exact muscle group or area of the body, is initiating this shift, thrust, or if you prefer rotation that begins around frame #19?

    I think you earlier said the backside. That's good ... now let's home in on it. I think you may have guessed the rear foot, and while I can understand why one may think of that as the answer, I think it merits more research.

    I'm not so sure about your comment about the sideways push stopping. Just because the frontside is effectively blocking forward movement doesn't mean pushing has ceased ... in fact, isn't it possible that there is a push still to come? Perhaps a push that is intensified? Maybe a push that is short yet powerful? Perhaps even a push that energizes the entire swing ... maybe even serving as a main source of force generation? Couldn't the blocking process be efficient enough to cease forward movement? Perhaps instead of forward movement there might be some rotational movement?
    Last edited by FiveFrameSwing; 09-30-2009 at 01:49 PM.

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