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Thread: Back Leg Action

  1. #76
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    Oh my. Go swing a bat and try it out.

    Apply something for once in your life.

    I've already told you how to move it.

    Now go try it.

  2. #77
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    Quote Originally Posted by 4for4 View Post
    Very good point and video. I didn't think FF5 new or understood what was being described. Courtesy of some video supplied 3 years ago by Swingtraining.net, I coined the term flex/extend/flex for this action.
    Well done.

    Last edited by LClifton; 09-30-2009 at 01:41 PM.

  3. #78
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    Quote Originally Posted by HYP View Post
    Got to go to lunch with my wife but I'll leave you with this. Study his lead foot in frames 29 through 33. Tell me what you see. Why is his toe on his front foot coming off the ground? why does it appear that the lead hip moving rearward is pulling him onto the heel of his front foot. Wouldn't it make sense if he was pushing back with that lead leg his foot would be more on the balls of his foot or at least stay flat.
    I re-cut the clip to zoom in on the lower body, without losing any clarity.



    Here's what I see...

    1. The hips stop translating forward toward the pitcher in Frame 20, so that is clearly where the sideways push stops. From that point on, the hips just rotate. I put a carat marker on the front hip to mark indicate this.

    2. In Frame 20 the hips are still closed, so it's not the sideways push that causes them to rotate. Something else does.

    3. You don't see his cleats until Frame 28, at which point his front knee is starting to extend. It is very easy to see that, because of the angles involved at that moment, this would roll him onto the outside of his front foot. This is also the result of a rotational force that is being generated in the core.

    4. Some force causes his ankle to roll between Frame 23 and Frame 24. We know that force isn't the sideways push of the back foot and it isn't momentum, because his hips don't translate and farther and the rolling of the ankle would have been visible one frame sooner. Something happened -- some muscle group fired -- in Frame 23 when his front heel planted.

    The bottom line is that you need to work with higher-quality clips if you want to come up with the correct answer.

    P.S. I'll see if a 3BL view shows this more clearly.
    Last edited by Chris O'Leary; 09-30-2009 at 02:27 PM.

  4. #79
    You guys are all missing the point. The hands determine where and when the back hip fires.


    The eyes tell the hands which tells the hip where to fire the hip at.

  5. #80
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    Quote Originally Posted by Chris O'Leary View Post
    I re-cut the clip to zoom in on the lower body, without losing any clarity.



    Here's what I see...

    1. The hips stop translating forward toward the pitcher in Frame 20, so that is clearly where the sideways push stops. From that point on, the hips just rotate. I put a carat marker on the front hip to mark indicate this.

    2. In Frame 20 the hips are still closed, so it's not the sideways push that causes them to rotate. Something else does.

    3. You don't see his cleats until Frame 28, at which point his front knee is extending. It is very easy to see that, because of the angles involved. this would roll him onto the outside of his front foot.

    The bottom line is that you need to work with higher-quality clips if you want to come up with the correct answer.

    P.S. I'll see if a 3BL view shows this more clearly.

    Chris, this is more like it. I like this search for truth.

    Regarding pt #2 ... IMO there is some hip rotation (what I believe you refer to as hip rotation) occuring between frames 19 & 20. We can disagree ... but that's what I see.

    From your comment in #1 it looks like you are differentiating between a "sideways push" and a "thrust". The question ... and I think you know what I'm asking ... is what action, as close to the exact muscle group or area of the body, is initiating this shift, thrust, or if you prefer rotation that begins around frame #19?

    I think you earlier said the backside. That's good ... now let's home in on it. I think you may have guessed the rear foot, and while I can understand why one may think of that as the answer, I think it merits more research.

    I'm not so sure about your comment about the sideways push stopping. Just because the frontside is effectively blocking forward movement doesn't mean pushing has ceased ... in fact, isn't it possible that there is a push still to come? Perhaps a push that is intensified? Maybe a push that is short yet powerful? Perhaps even a push that energizes the entire swing ... maybe even serving as a main source of force generation? Couldn't the blocking process be efficient enough to cease forward movement? Perhaps instead of forward movement there might be some rotational movement?
    Last edited by FiveFrameSwing; 09-30-2009 at 02:49 PM.

  6. #81
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    Let's address the topic of front foot torquing using the clip below of Pujols hitting a walk-off, towering shot to LF. The context of this clip is basically the same as the Brad Lidge Home Run; a hanging slider after two hard 95 MPH fastballs (thus the slight disconnection).



    If you watch the front foot, you will see that the front heel plants in Frame 23. There is no comparable rotating and torquing of the front foot in this clip until Frame 32. Instead, it stays mostly in place through the extension of the front knee (see especially Frame 26 through Frame 31), which is consistent with the front foot being pressed into place by the force of the extension of the front knee. It is only when his arms start getting pulled out and around into extension that Pujols rolls onto the outside of his front foot.
    Last edited by Chris O'Leary; 09-30-2009 at 02:50 PM.

  7. #82
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    Quote Originally Posted by FiveFrameSwing View Post
    in fact, isn't it possible that there is a push still to come? Perhaps a push that is intensified? Maybe a push that is short yet power? Couldn't the blocking process be efficient enough to cease forward movement? Perhaps instead of forward movement there might be some rotational movement?
    It's possible but I don't see evidence of it in what Pujols' back foot does.

    The movements I see in Frame 22 through Frame 27 are better explained by a back foot that is pulled up into the air, rather than pushing off hard (but for just a frame or two).

    Wouldn't there be some evidence for such a short, powerful move that turns the hips and causes the front knee to extend all on its own? I would expect to see dirt flying, but it doesn't.
    Last edited by Chris O'Leary; 09-30-2009 at 02:55 PM.

  8. #83
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    Quote Originally Posted by Chris O'Leary View Post
    I re-cut the clip to zoom in on the lower body, without losing any clarity.



    Here's what I see...

    1. The hips stop translating forward toward the pitcher in Frame 20, so that is clearly where the sideways push stops. From that point on, the hips just rotate. I put a carat marker on the front hip to mark indicate this.

    2. In Frame 20 the hips are still closed, so it's not the sideways push that causes them to rotate. Something else does.
    But why are they rotating? Because the rear hip is driving forward. From the coming down and forward of the rear knee and then a push off the ground which projects the hip up and forward. Notice how his rear hip almost sucks in and tries to go straight to where the lead hip started. Straight line thrust of the rear hip

    Quote Originally Posted by Chris O'Leary View Post
    3. You don't see his cleats until Frame 28, at which point his front knee is starting to extend. It is very easy to see that, because of the angles involved at that moment, this would roll him onto the outside of his front foot. This is also the result of a rotational force that is being generated in the core.
    But why does he end up on the heel of his front foot? If he is pushing back with that foot.

    Rotational force being generated in the core? pretty broad. That force is being generated from the back side.

    Quote Originally Posted by Chris O'Leary View Post
    4. Some force causes his ankle to roll between Frame 23 and Frame 24. We know that force isn't the sideways push of the back foot and it isn't momentum, because his hips don't translate and farther and the rolling of the ankle would have been visible one frame sooner. Something happened -- some muscle group fired -- in Frame 23 when his front heel planted.
    You're kidding right. You're right it aint the "sideways" push. Why can't it be momentum? That muscle group is the energy fired from the rear hip, which, with a firm front leg, the energy being driven into the front leg and the front leg stopping that energy causes the front foot to except the weight transfer. Therefore the lead ankle flexes some as it absorbs the weight transfer.

    Now the rear hip continues to move forward and force the lead hip out of the way. The lead hip continues to move rearward. Then a final thrust of the rear hip and the lead hip moves back hard and snaps the lead leg straight, pulling the lead foot onto the heel.

    Quote Originally Posted by Chris O'Leary View Post
    The bottom line is that you need to work with higher-quality clips if you want to come up with the correct answer.

    P.S. I'll see if a 3BL view shows this more clearly.
    You seem to use pretty high quality clips and I havn't heard one right answer from you yet. Actually what you need to do is watch the clips and swing a bat. Then you may get close.

  9. #84
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    Quote Originally Posted by Chris O'Leary View Post
    Let's address the topic of front foot torquing using the clip below of Pujols hitting a walk-off, towering shot to LF. The context of this clip is basically the same as the Brad Lidge Home Run; a hanging slider after two hard 95 MPH fastballs (thus the slight disconnection).



    If you watch the front foot, you will see that the front heel plants in Frame 23. There is no comparable rotating and torquing of the front foot in this clip until Frame 32. Instead, it stays mostly in place through the extension of the front knee (see especially Frame 26 through Frame 31), which is consistent with the front foot being pressed into place by the force of the extension of the front knee. It is only when his arms start getting pulled out and around into extension that Pujols rolls onto the outside of his front foot.
    Frames 23 thru 32 look to be during the frontside blocking portion. If you'll note a large percentage of rotation takes place during these frames. The question to you remains the same however ... what muscle action is used to INITIATE this rotation ... which occurs prior to frame 23? What muscle group, or groups, initiate the action of rotation?

  10. #85
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    Quote Originally Posted by Chris O'Leary View Post
    It's possible but I don't see evidence of it in what Pujols' back foot does.

    The movements I see in Frame 22 through Frame 27 are better explained by a back foot that is pulled up into the air, rather than pushing off hard (but for just a frame or two).

    Wouldn't there be some evidence for such a short, powerful move that turns the hips and causes the front knee to extend all on its own? I would expect to see dirt flying, but it doesn't.
    Hmm ... I'm afraid relying on video 'alone' won't get you the answer. Grab a bat and take yourself through the sequence. Pay attention to your body and notice if there is a heightened push taking place into front heel plant.

    Please run that experiment ... because the video isn't going to show much forward movement at this point ... yet you should learn of a push that by and large will determine how powerful the swing is. After you run the experiment take another look at the video. I think you'll see things differently.

  11. #86
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    Quote Originally Posted by FiveFrameSwing View Post
    The question to you remains the same however ... what muscle action is used to INITIATE this rotation ... which occurs prior to frame 23? What muscle group, or groups, initiate the action of rotation?
    Just as I don't know or care what muscles are involved when you squat, I don't care what muscles are involved in that action. But if I tell a good athlete to do "that," they can (and knowing what the muscles and muscle groups are called won't help with the process if they can't).

    Of course, the answer to that question is knowable, but I don't think it's particularly valuable so I choose not to pursue it.
    Last edited by Chris O'Leary; 09-30-2009 at 03:36 PM.

  12. #87
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    Quote Originally Posted by HYP View Post
    Actually what you need to do is watch the clips and swing a bat. Then you may get close.
    This is very true.

    I keep a bats all over my house ... in my garage, car, family room, study and bedroom. When the urge hits me to experiment, or to simply swing and "feel" what's happening, then I do it. You shouldn't simply rely on video ... because if you do you're going to end up building a model of the swing that is likely incorrect.

    I don't care how good the video is. As the Dixon's have stated ... it is possible to use the body in what looks to be a near identical manner, yet employ different muscle groups. If you don't bring yourself through the actions, then it's very difficult to tell exactly what is going on underneath the hood of a finely tuned athlete.

    I'm not asking you to agree ... I'm asking you to swing and "listen" to your body. Feel what muscles are employed. Try to get a sense of the muscle group that I'm asking about. Identify the source of that thrust ... or the source of rotation ... then confirm if that feeling agrees with the video.

  13. #88
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    Quote Originally Posted by Chris O'Leary View Post
    Let's address the topic of front foot torquing using the clip below of Pujols hitting a walk-off, towering shot to LF. The context of this clip is basically the same as the Brad Lidge Home Run; a hanging slider after two hard 95 MPH fastballs (thus the slight disconnection).



    If you watch the front foot, you will see that the front heel plants in Frame 23. There is no comparable rotating and torquing of the front foot in this clip until Frame 32. Instead, it stays mostly in place through the extension of the front knee (see especially Frame 26 through Frame 31), which is consistent with the front foot being pressed into place by the force of the extension of the front knee. It is only when his arms start getting pulled out and around into extension that Pujols rolls onto the outside of his front foot.
    The front foot is being pressed into the ground because it is excepting the weight transfer from the backside.

    Now as to why he is not being pulled onto his heel on the front foot like in the other clip is obvious. He doesn't get the same backside thrust that he got in the other clip. Look at his rear foot. It doesn't come off of the ground like in the other clip. Which would indicate that he didn't get the same drive from the rear hip.

    Why is this? Because, like you indicated, it was a slider that he hit for a HR to left field. He was slightly out front, timing slightly off and had to go out and get this pitch out front. Since his timing wasn't perfect he didn't get the same drive from the backside.

    I can gaurantee you that if he was pulling the backside around with his front side he would've rolled over on this pitch and got thrown out at first.

    With a backside driven swing, your timing doesn't have to be perfect. You can be a little late or early and still have enough control to hit the ball good.

  14. #89
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    Quote Originally Posted by Chris O'Leary View Post
    Just as I don't know or care what muscles are involved when you squat, I don't care what muscles are involved in the action. But if I tell a good athlete to do "that," they can (and knowing what the muscles and muscle groups are called won't help with that process if they can't).

    Of course, the answer to that question is knowable, but I don't think it's particularly valuable so I choose not to pursue it.
    But here's the thing ... you look at the video and tell me that the most powerful push in the swing isn't even there. How fair is that to your students? How fair is that to people that might put credibility in your posts?

  15. #90
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    Quote Originally Posted by FiveFrameSwing View Post
    When the urge hits me to experiment, or to simply swing and "feel" what's happening, then I do it. You shouldn't simply rely on video ...
    We long ago established that feel alone is a very dangerous tool.

  16. #91
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    Chris ... I should have responded differently in my last post.

    If you don't care, then that is an acceptable answer.

    It matters to me ... but it need not matter to you.

    I wish you would have responded like that earlier and we could have saved each other some time.

    Best wishes to you and your students.

  17. #92
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    Quote Originally Posted by Chris O'Leary View Post
    We long ago established that feel alone is a very dangerous tool.
    You're being selective now. I clearly stated that it is important to return to the video and seek confirmation.

    Not only was MarkH correct when he recommended READING DIXON (please do that ... for your own sake) ... but he was spot on with the Hanson Principle.

  18. #93
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    Quote Originally Posted by Chris O'Leary View Post
    We long ago established that feel alone is a very dangerous tool.
    And so are you. joking. You threw that softball out there. Someone had to hit it. Might as well been me.

  19. #94
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    Chris ... if I mailed you a copy of Jim Dixon's book, would you promise to read it?

  20. #95
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    Quote Originally Posted by HYP View Post
    The front foot is being pressed into the ground because it is excepting the weight transfer from the backside.
    Do you mean "accepting"?


    Quote Originally Posted by HYP View Post
    Look at his rear foot. It doesn't come off of the ground like in the other clip. Which would indicate that he didn't get the same drive from the rear hip.
    What?

    The back foot action is identical.


    Quote Originally Posted by HYP View Post
    Since his timing wasn't perfect he didn't get the same drive from the backside.
    When in your opinion does the back side drive occur?

    Most people that I know who preach this say it should occur through the point of contact.


    Quote Originally Posted by HYP View Post
    With a backside driven swing, your timing doesn't have to be perfect. You can be a little late or early and still have enough control to hit the ball good.
    But you just said that he didn't get the same backside drive because his timing was off.

  21. #96
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    Quote Originally Posted by FiveFrameSwing View Post
    Chris ... if I mailed you a copy of Jim Dixon's book, would you promise to read it?
    I already have it.

    I'll re-read it tonight.

  22. #97
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    Quote Originally Posted by FiveFrameSwing View Post
    But here's the thing ... you look at the video and tell me that the most powerful push in the swing isn't even there.
    I'm saying it's not there because there's no evidence for it.

    This isn't like religion where you have to rely on faith. Instead, you can actually measure this using force plates.

    Have you found a force plate study that backs this study up? I know there is a study called "Characteristic Ground Reaction Forces in Pitching" that might be relevant to this.

  23. #98
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    Quote Originally Posted by Chris O'Leary View Post
    I already have it.

    I'll re-read it tonight.

    Thank you.

  24. #99
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    Quote Originally Posted by FiveFrameSwing View Post
    You're being selective now. I clearly stated that it is important to return to the video and seek confirmation.

    Not only was MarkH correct when he recommended READING DIXON (please do that ... for your own sake) ... but he was spot on with the Hanson Principle.
    I'd be REALLY surprised if Mark agrees with the idea that the extension of the front knee is solely the result of the rotation of the hips and not some active contraction of the muscles in the front leg.

  25. #100
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    Quote Originally Posted by 4for4 View Post
    Please address the Yeager question completely and then we can get to the functional realities.
    If I'm understanding him correctly, I think FFS's issue with Yeager is that, when it comes to Yeager's Push(1)>Block>Push(2) model, he either doesn't believe that Push(2) exists or he thinks it comes from the back side and not the front side (as I interpret Yeager as believing).

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