Hall of Fame Purgatory – Election #9

[Freakshow]

Here is a link to the previous election.
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This is the official Roster of Voters who are eligible to vote in this election:

Ace Venom
AstrosFan
Brad Harris
Captain Cold Nose
Cougar
Domenic
Fielding Marshall
Freakshow
gman5431
jalbright
jjpm74
Paul Wendt
PVNICK
Reds5 (new)
Sockeye
Tiboreau
Windy City Fan

STLCards2 has been dropped from the roster after missing the last five elections.

If anyone else would like to join in and vote, go to the introductory thread and apply; you're in if there are no objections from any current voters. Also refer to that thread for a fuller understanding of the rules.
======================================
Each voter must do three things:

1) Rank these 15 players in order. In this project, you are a voter for the hall of fame, so players should be ranked based on hall of fame criteria, the sum of all their contributions to the game. If you feel a player is more appropriately elected to the HOF as a contributor, you may disregard his non-playing contributions in your analysis.

v1.0	Election #9		AWS	Peak		WARP3	Peak
347	Wally Berger		255	30.8	|	51.8	6.53
290	Tommy Bridges		253	21.9	|	71.6	6.39
374	Dave Concepcion	        278	24.1	|	71.6	8.07
300	Gavvy Cravath		340	31.6	|	59.4	6.04
353	Bob Johnson		312	26.0	|	66.4	6.13
364	Jim Kaat		272	20.8	|	56.1	5.77
266	Cal McVey		238	32.3	|	30.4	5.02
275	Thurman Munson		213	23.3	|	59.2	6.85
382	Don Newcombe	        227	24.2	|	56.4	6.42
330	Dick Redding		285	28.1	|		
323	Bret Saberhagen	        199	21.0	|	74.3	7.79
313	Urban Shocker		248	26.0	|	62.5	6.74
310	Dave Stieb		217	22.7	|	62.6	6.97
317	Quincy Trouppe		269	25.7	|		
393	Robin Ventura		281	25.1	|	96.6	9.83

A maximum of ten players will be “elected” at one time.

The pink elephant in the room is, of course, steroids. I would advise voters to treat the PED-tainted candidates with a similar degree of sanctions that MLB has placed upon them. IOW, if a candidate has never been penalized by MLB for PED use it is inappropriate for voters to penalize him in their analysis for ranking them.

I don’t want this thread to become bogged down in yet another PED discussion, so persons who want to debate this should take it to one of the many threads at BBF dealing with this issue. I’m simply requesting voters to avoid going down the Rabbit Hole of suspicion and rumor and to base their analysis on what is known – on the evidence. Let our group be a shining example to the BBWAA as to a rational approach to candidates from the “steroids era”.

2) For each candidate, signify Yes (Y) or No (N) in answer to this question: Should this player be in the Hall of Fame?

We all have our own idea of how many people should be in the Hall of Fame. For this project, I’m asking voters to use a standard of value that is similar to that established by the National Baseball Hall of Fame and Museum in Cooperstown, NY. They have now enshrined 231 players from MLB and Negro leagues. This gives us the definition of “Hall of Famer” now in use by the Hall: one of the top 231 players from MLB or Negro leagues who retired in 2003 or earlier. In practice, many of us employ a “tolerance zone”, extending our range of Yeses somewhat beyond our personal 231 player queue, thus acknowledging that a Gray Area exists.

From everything I have seen, there are at least 35 candidates for the HOF, and perhaps more than 60, who have a good case for being ranked as one of the top 231 eligible players outside the Hall. Thus, for this election I would still expect most ballots to have a few Yeses.

A player will be considered “elected” to the Hall of Purgatory if he finishes in the top ten, and a majority of voters say Yes.

3) Rank your top 7 players from this list of 25 upcoming candidates. The top players from this runoff will replace players who drop off the ballot:

v1.0	Runoff for next ballot	AWS	Peak		WARP3	Peak
332	Sal Bando		285	28.2	|	56.3	6.57
250	Pete Browning	        267	29.2	|	49.9	6.23
414	Cesar Cedeno		303	28.3	|	70.6	7.80
361	David Cone		215	20.6	|	74.5	7.32
302	Steve Garvey		286	24.5	|	57.1	5.97
333	Gil Hodges		276	26.3	|	56.0	6.11
316	Tommy John		295	18.5	|	67.9	5.22
346	Herman Long		308	27.9	|	49.6	5.30
322	Don Mattingly	        270	28.5	|	57.4	6.85
287	Jim McCormick	        278	36.7	|	50.4	6.85
345	Jack Morris		234	20.1	|	50.6	5.31
312	Tony Mullane		313	32.3	|	48.0	5.81
384	Lefty O'Doul		152	23.7	|	27.8	4.71
315	Tony Oliva		246	28.0	|	52.8	6.43
320	Lance Parrish		256	22.1	|	67.9	6.53
400	Johnny Pesky		278	28.8	|	57.2	6.94
341	Al Rosen		195	29.7	|	40.3	6.61
335	Jimmy Ryan		369	29.8	|	58.4	5.37
331	Wally Schang		263	20.3	|	57.4	5.10
411	Chino Smith				|		
362	Lee Smith		205	16.7	|	66.5	5.87
283	Reggie Smith		337	26.8	|	65.1	5.84
342	Rusty Staub		361	28.5	|	63.9	5.97
280	Vern Stephens	        269	27.4	|	50.5	5.51
389	Mickey Vernon		352	26.5	|	51.5	5.14

========================================
Notes on charts
--The first column is their rank on the 500 Player List, v1.0.
--AWS = career Adjusted Win Shares. Increased for war credit (Bridges, Redding, Newcombe, Pesky, Vernon), race credit, short seasons, blackballed (Mullane), Japan (Smith), minor leagues (Cravath, Johnson), early death (Munson). Decreased for fledgling (Browning, Mullane, McCormick) and war-depleted (Stephens, Johnson, Bridges, Cravath, Shocker) leagues. Pre-1893 pitching win shares reduced by 50% (Mullane, McCormick).
--Peak = Weighted Average of Top 7 years in Adjusted Win Shares.
--Career total of WARP3 from Baseball Prospectus. Increased for war credit, race credit, Japanese play, minor league play and being blackballed.
--Peak = Weighted Average of Top 7 years in WARP3.
--Data for Negro leaguers (Redding, Trouppe, C. Smith) are adapted from their MLE’s at Baseballthinkfactory.
--Players who played primarily before 1893 (Browning, McVey, Mullane, McCormick) are increased to a 152-game basis for AWS.
--AWS for NA (1871-75) are estimated from WARP3 numbers.
--Credit for pre-NA play (before 1871) was not calculated for McVey.
========================================
A Few Words About the Queue
The queue of candidates isn’t your list or mine. In short, it’s a consensus built from ruminating over this issue for 30-some years. Yes, numbers are paramount – hey, I’m an accountant. However, I’ve incorporated every reasonable ranking system I’ve run across. The Ultimate Quest for Candidates project was very influential. I also consider their “popularity” as a HOF candidate. I look for players who do well both by the numbers and by opinion. You tend to see the same names popping up over and over, and I’ve tried to put these guys at the top. However, there are always those divisive candidates.

Look at our earliest candidates, Joe Start and Lip Pike. Both began playing at the game’s highest level long before 1871; each is missing more than a third of their career in the official record and nearly half of their prime. We can get a quick and dirty estimate of their career value by multiplying their totals by 1.5. This method shows Start with 443 Adjusted Win shares and 60.3 WARP3. Pike is boosted to 278 AWS and 43.1 WARP3. These are in spite of Win Shares underallocation to 19th century defense and WARP3’s severe timeline discount on 1870’s players. Obviously, the game they excelled at was very different from the baseball that we know. In addition, pro baseball had only recently begun to spread beyond the northeast region of the country. Bill James quickly dismisses them for these reasons.

Well, it’s the National Baseball Hall of Fame and Museum, right? If that last word is going to be meaningful, it’s incumbent upon the Hall to identify and honor the greatest players from every era of the game’s history. At present, we see only scant representation from the first twenty years of professional play (1869-1888).

Average no. Hall of Famers playing semi-regular 1871-1887: 8.9 (median: 7 / range: 5-15)
Average no. Hall of Famers playing semi-regular 1888-1904: 24.4 (median: 24 / range: 19-29)

The Hall of Fame should enshrine another 10-15 players from the 1870s-80s era.
========================================
It is helpful to me if you only list players by their last name on your ballot (or last name, first initial). If you want to change your ballot some time after it is first posted, make a post in this thread that you have done so. Balloting will continue until everyone has voted, but not more than four weeks. I will try to get the results up as soon after this as possible.

Discussion of the rankings, players, rules, methodologies, etc. should take place in this thread. Some of these candidates you may never have seriously considered for the Hall, so I would expect voters to engage in discussion and be open to persuasion regarding these players. Try to imagine this as a final hearing on these candidates, to accept or reject them forever, and seriously consider each player’s qualifications. Go beyond the numbers and look for contributions in the minor leagues or non-playing or anecdotal. Consider whether a player deserves a bonus for playing a position, or in an era, that’s underrepresented in the Hall’s membership.
========================================
So far, these players have been named to dwell in the Hall of Purgatory:
1. Ron Santo, 2. Bert Blyleven, 3. Tim Raines, 4. Roberto Alomar, 5. Barry Larkin, 6. Bill Dahlen, 7. Dick Allen, 8. Deacon White, 9. Alan Trammell, 10. Bobby Grich
11. Paul Hines, 12. Minnie Minoso, 13. Sherry Magee, 14. Ted Simmons, 15. Mark McGwire, 16. Lou Whitaker, 17. Joe Torre, 18. Edgar Martinez, 19. Darrell Evans, 20. Stan Hack
21. George Gore, 22. Will Clark, 23. Heinie Groh, 24. Wes Ferrell, 25. Ross Barnes, 26. Andre Dawson, 27. Jack Glasscock, 28. Dwight Evans, 29. Homerun Johnson, 30. Fred McGriff
31. John Beckwith, 32. Charlie Bennett, 33. Harry Stovey, 34. Hardy Richardson, 35. Jimmy Wynn, 36. Keith Hernandez, 37. Ken Boyer, 38. Bill Freehan, 39. Graig Nettles, 40. Dale Murphy
41. Ezra Sutton, 42. Joe Start, 43. Bob Caruthers, 44. Jimmy Sheckard, 45. Tommy Leach, 46. Albert Belle, 47. Bucky Walters, 48. Charlie Keller, 49. George Van Haltren, 50. Dobie Moore
51. Cupid Childs, 52. Lip Pike, 53. Alejandro Oms, 54. Dan Quisenberry, 55. Dick Lundy
These ten players have been dropped from consideration after being voted down in three elections:
1. Carl Mays, 2. Willie Randolph, 3. Dave Parker, 4. Larry Doyle, 5. Charley Jones, 6. Bobby Bonds, 7. Billy Pierce, 8. Bob Elliott, 9. Wilbur Cooper, 10. Luis Tiant

[Freakshow]

Here are the 15 candidates on the ballot ranked by career and by peak.

Ranked by Career Value			Ranked by Peak Value			
		AWS	WARP3				AWS	WARP3
Ventura		281	96.6	|	Ventura		25.1	9.83
Johnson B	312	66.4	|	Berger		30.8	6.53
Cravath		340	59.4	|	Cravath		31.6	6.04
Concepcion	278	71.6	|	Concepcion	24.1	8.07
Bridges		253	71.6	|	Redding		28.1	
Redding		285		|	Shocker		26.0	6.74
Shocker		248	62.5	|	Johnson B	26.0	6.13
Kaat		272	56.1	|	Munson		23.3	6.85
TROUPPE		269		|	STIEB		22.7	6.97
SABERHAGEN	199	74.3	|	SABERHAGEN	21.0	7.79
STIEB		217	62.6	|	TROUPPE		25.7	
Berger		255	51.8	|	MCVEY		32.3	5.02
Newcombe	227	56.4	|	Newcombe	24.2	6.42
Munson		213	59.2	|	Bridges		21.9	6.39
MCVEY		238	30.4	|	Kaat		20.8	5.77

[Freakshow]

Here are the 25 candidates in the runoff ranked by career and by peak.

Ranked by Career Value			Ranked by Peak Value			
		AWS	WARP3				AWS	WARP3
Staub		361	63.9	|	McCormick J	36.7	6.85
SMITH R		337	65.1	|	Cedeno		28.3	7.80
Cedeno		303	70.6	|	Pesky		28.8	6.94
Ryan J		369	58.4	|	Rosen		29.7	6.61
John		295	67.9	|	Mattingly	28.5	6.85
Vernon		352	51.5	|	Smith Chi			
Parrish Ln	256	67.9	|	Bando		28.2	6.57
Garvey		286	57.1	|	Mullane		32.3	5.81
Bando		285	56.3	|	BROWNING	29.2	6.23
Pesky		278	57.2	|	Oliva		28.0	6.43
Mattingly	270	57.4	|	Staub		28.5	5.97
Hodges		276	56.0	|	Hodges		26.3	6.11
Schang		263	57.4	|	Ryan J		29.8	5.37
Long H		308	49.6	|	SMITH R		26.8	5.84
Cone		215	74.5	|	Stephens	27.4	5.51
Mullane		313	48.0	|	Garvey		24.5	5.97
McCormick J	278	50.4	|	Long H		27.9	5.30
Stephens	269	50.5	|	Cone		20.6	7.32
BROWNING	267	49.9	|	Parrish Ln	22.1	6.53
Oliva		246	52.8	|	Vernon		26.5	5.14
Smith Le	205	66.5	|	O'Doul		23.7	4.71
Morris J	234	50.6	|	Morris J	20.1	5.31
Smith Chi			|	Schang		20.3	5.10
Rosen		195	40.3	|	John		18.5	5.22
O'Doul		152	27.8	|	Smith Le	16.7	5.87

[Cougar]

Here are the 15 candidates on the ballot ranked by career and by peak.

Ranked by Career Value			Ranked by Peak Value			
		AWS	WARP3				AWS	WARP3
Ventura		281	96.6	|	Ventura		25.1	9.83
Johnson B	312	66.4	|	Berger		30.8	6.53
Cravath		340	59.4	|	Cravath		31.6	6.04
Concepcion	278	71.6	|	Concepcion	24.1	8.07
Bridges		253	71.6	|	Redding		28.1	
Redding		285		|	Shocker		26.0	6.74
Shocker		248	62.5	|	Johnson B	26.0	6.13
Kaat		272	56.1	|	Munson		23.3	6.85
TROUPPE		269		|	STIEB		22.7	6.97
SABERHAGEN	199	74.3	|	SABERHAGEN	21.0	7.79
STIEB		217	62.6	|	TROUPPE		25.7	
Berger		255	51.8	|	MCVEY		32.3	5.02
Newcombe	227	56.4	|	Newcombe	24.2	6.42
Munson		213	59.2	|	Bridges		21.9	6.39
MCVEY		238	30.4	|	Kaat		20.8	5.77

Wow, WARP3 loves it some Robin Ventura!

[PVNICK]

Wow, WARP3 loves it some Robin Ventura!

I've noticed that, he gets freakish defensive numbers, better than Brooks Robinson in what a third less games. Theres' a lot of the recent 3B and I guess Concepcion and Sabes that seem to have unconscionably high WARP3. It makes it hard for me (and hypocritical siince I give credence to Davey's but not Sabes and Ventura's numbers).

[Freakshow]

Wow, WARP3 loves it some Robin Ventura!

There is some discussion of this in the last election thread. Summed up with these statements:

WARP is doing something screwy with their 3B fielding

and
WARP sees him as one of the all-time great defenders in the game's history, just behind Ozzie Smith.

[Cougar]

Can someone help me evaluate Quincy Trouppe? The usual suspects for a quick thumbnail sketch aren't telling me much.

[jalbright]

Can someone help me evaluate Quincy Trouppe? The usual suspects for a quick thumbnail sketch aren't telling me much.

Try this:

Quincy Trouppe

He had a nice long career as a catcher in the Negro Leagues, over 20 years. The BBTF guys figure him at around 260+ career win shares, 78 in his best three seasons and 105 in his best five consecutive. They think he would have been a 270/370/420 hitter, good for a 119 OPS+, in about 7200 AB. Given that Trouppe had a good defensive rep, I think the best synopsis of his case is, if Bill Freehan belongs, so does he. If you draw the line above Freehan, then the case is more questionable.

AG2004's take on Trouppe is instructive, I think:

I realized that seven All-Star-Type seasons (20+ win shares) was the general cut-off area for post-1925 catchers and the BBFHOF; for the other field positions, eight was the general cut-off. Hartnett, who is a consensus member of the BBFHOF, has seven such seasons. Ivan Rodriguez, who most people here would consider worthy of Cooperstown, has also recorded seven such seasons. Since catching, more than playing any other of the eight "everyday" positions, makes high demands on the human body, and since there seems to be a limit on how often a human can catch, putting the cutoff a little lower here makes sense.

For this reason, the de facto cutoffs that the BBFHOF has established for win shares are lower at catcher than at the other positions. Again, since there are physical limits to how often a human being can catch, I don't have a problem with this. Since Trouppe has reached these standards, he belongs in the BBFHOF.

Case to Consider: TROUPPE, Quincy

1. Was he ever regarded as the best player in baseball? Did anybody, while he was active, ever suggest that he was the best player in baseball?

No.

2. Was he the best player on his team?

Between late 1944 and 1947, Trouppe was considered the star of the Cleveland Buckeyes. While the team was mediocre in 1946, it did win the pennant in 1945 and 1947.

3. Was he the best player in baseball at his position? Was he the best player in the league at his position?

Trouppe’s MLEs project him with as many or more win shares than the top MLB catchers in 1939, 1941, 1942, 1946, 1947, and 1948, and more win shares than the top AL catcher in 1940 and 1943.

However, only in 1947 and 1948 was Trouppe the best catcher in baseball. Until 1946, Josh Gibson was far and away the best catcher in the game, and Trouppe would have looked poor by comparison. (Next to Gibson’s MLEs, all other catchers look poor by comparison.)

4. Did he have an impact on a number of pennant races?

Cleveland won the NAL pennants in 1945 and 1947. In the 1945 Negro World Series, Trouppe batted over .400 as the Buckeyes swept the favored Homestead Grays.

5. Was he good enough that he could play regularly after passing his prime?

Trouppe had an All-Star-type season in 1948, at the age of 35, and caught for a few years more. Due to the color line, he didn’t appear in the major leagues until 1952, when he played in six games at age 39. I have to answer yes here.

6. Is he the very best baseball player in history who is not in the Hall of Fame?

I doubt that Trouppe is the best player outside the BBFHOF.

7. Are most players who have comparable statistics in the Hall of Fame?

Baseballthinkfactory’s MLEs credit Trouppe with 260+ career win shares and 113 in his best five consecutive seasons. They credit him with 84 win shares in his best three seasons. Dr. Chaleeko knocked down the figures for 1938 and 1946 on the grounds that Trouppe wouldn’t have caught as much in the major leagues as a linear translation would indicate. Since his five-year peak lasted from 1939 to 1943, the adjustments don’t affect that mark.

The adjustments would lower Trouppe’s best three seasons from 84 to 79, however. On the other hand, in 1946, Trouppe was playing in Negro League games, and they counted in the standings for his team. Furthermore, the BTF people admit that their MLEs, while good for career value and five-year consecutive peaks, do understate the value of a player’s best three seasons, as they flatten out the peaks and valleys in individual seasons. For this reasons, I’ll use the unadjusted 84 figure here.

Comparable career win shares, C: Mickey Cochrane 275, Bill Freehan 267, TROUPPE 260+, Lance Parrish 248, and Wally Schang 245. From 1933 to 1936, Trouppe played for a very good Bismarck team that held its own against established Black Baseball clubs. Due to a lack of data, there are no MLEs for those seasons, and credit for them would certainly push Trouppe above 275. Since every eligible MLB catcher with 267+ career win shares is in the BBFHOF, Trouppe exceeds the cutoff mark here.

Best three seasons: Bill Dickey 87, Ted Simmons 86, TROUPPE 84, Roger Bresnahan 83, Gene Tenace 83, Darren Daulton 83, Gabby Hartnett 80. Trouppe is in the gray area.

Best five consecutive seasons: Elston Howard 119, Roger Bresnahan 116, Gabby Hartnett 114, QUINCY TROUPPE 113, Mickey Tettleton 111, Thurman Munson 111, Carlton Fisk 106. Again, Trouppe lands in the gray area.

8. Do the player's numbers meet Hall of Fame standards?

The ink and HOF Standards tests aren’t applicable here. While Trouppe is not in Cooperstown, he is in the Hall of Merit.

9. Is there any evidence to suggest that the player was significantly better or worse than is suggested by his statistics?

Between 1933 and 1936, Trouppe was playing high-level ball with an independent Bismarck team, but statistics from that period are limited.

10. Is he the best player at his position who is eligible for the Hall of Fame?

I believe that Trouppe is the best eligible catcher outside the BBFHOF. He has the lead in career value, and is in the gray area in the peak measures.

11. How many MVP-type seasons did he have? Did he ever win an MVP award? If not, how many times was he close?

Before the playing time adjustment was made, Trouppe was credited with 31 win shares in 1946. That would have been Trouppe’s only season with 30+ win shares, according to the MLEs.

12. How many All-Star-type seasons did he have? How many All-Star games did he play in? Did most of the players who played in this many All-Star games go into the Hall of Fame?

Trouppe was named to five teams for the East-West game, and probably would have been on several more had it not been for all his years in Mexico. Trouppe has seven seasons that come out to 20+ win shares, and that is the lower limit for post-1920 catchers. He might have had another one or two with Bismarck, but we don’t have data for those years.

13. If this man were the best player on his team, would it be likely that the team could win the pennant?

At his best, yes.

14. What impact did the player have on baseball history? Was he responsible for any rule changes? Did he introduce any new equipment? Did he change the game in any way?

Not that I know of.

15. Did the player uphold the standards of sportsmanship and character that the Hall of Fame, in its written guidelines, instructs us to consider?

As far as I can tell, yes.

CONCLUSION: Trouppe really did come along twenty years too soon. The fact that he played for so many teams, all for short periods of time, kept him from being associated with any one club, and that hurt him when Negro League players were finally recognized. It didn’t help that several of those teams were outside the organized Negro Leagues (Bismarck, the Mexican League teams). Also, Josh Gibson was, by far, the best catcher in baseball during Trouppe’s peak.

However, the statistical analysis at baseballthinkfactory has cleared away a lot of the screens standing between us and Trouppe. Trouppe’s peak puts him in the gray area for the BBFHOF, and his total career value puts him in the “admit-me” realm. He also had seven documented seasons with 20+ win shares, which seems to be the real cut-off line for catchers (Hartnett had seven such seasons, and, as of February 2008, Ivan Rodriguez also has seven). Trouppe’s record as a catcher makes him deserving of the BBFHOF.

from pages 50-53 of the recent book on the Mexican Leagues, South of the Color Barrier by John Virtue and p. 347 of Riley's Negro League Biographical Encyclopedia: some teammates of Trouppe's on the Bismarck, ND team: Satchel Paige (!!), Hilton Smith (!), Red Haley of the Memphis Red Sox, Double Duty Radcliffe (six Negro League all star games, though probably some duplicates in a year because they often played two), Barney Morris (made 2 Negro League All-Star games) and Chet Brewer (again a Negro League multiple season all-star) and Roosevelt Davis (Pittsburgh Crawfords and Cleveland Buckeyes). That Bismarck team was a true powerhouse.

I also did this comparison:

Quincy Trouppe

Trouppe's projection is missing four early years in his career when he played for a good independent team in Bismarck, ND, after he'd already shown he could play some in the Negro Leagues. If we had those years, he'd probably have more plate appearances but a lower OPS+. Given the lack of good switch hitting catchers, Ted Simmons seems a rather good match if we keep all that in mind:

player…...	hand	PA	avg	obp	slg	OPS+	pos
Trouppe..	B	8462	270	372	407	119	C/3B/OF
T. Simmons	B	9685	285	348	437	117	c/1B

[jalbright]

1. Trouppe
2. Redding
These are the only two "yes" votes in my ballot. The rest are "no" votes
========================================
3. Shocker
4. Bridges
5. Kaat
6. Stieb
7. Newcombe
8. Johnson
9. Saberhagen
10. Concepcion
11. Berger
12. Munson
13. McVey
14. Cravath
15. Ventura

Runoff
1. Mullane
2. Stephens
3. Pesky
4. Bando
5. C. Smith
6. Long
7. Ryan

[jjpm74]

Some reshuffling from the previous go around:

1. Wally Berger Y
2. Dave Stieb Y
3. Quincy Trouppe Y
4. Cal McVey Y
5. Thurman Munson Y
6. Don Newcombe N
7. Tommy Bridges N
8. Bob Johnson N
9. Urban Shocker N
10. Bret Saberhagen N
11. Dick Redding N
12. Robin Ventura N
13. Jim Kaat N
14. Dave Concepcion N
15. Gavvy Cravath N

Runoff:

1. Rusty Staub
2. Chino Smith
3. Jimmy Ryan
4. Gil Hodges
5. Herman Long
6. Don Mattingly
7. Jack Morrris

On the ballot side, if we were going for an unlimited size HOF, I'dve said yes to everyone except Concepcion and Cravath and have supported the other 13 in various projects.

[Domenic]

01. Wally Berger
02. Quincy Trouppe
03. Tommy Bridges
04. Gavvy Cravath
05. Urban Shocker
06. Don Newcombe
07. Dave Stieb
08. Bob Johnson
09. Thurman Munson
10. Bret Saberhagen
11. Dick Redding
12. Jim Kaat
13. Robin Ventura
14. Dave Concepcion
15. Cal McVey

Bold = Yes

01. Mullane
02. Rosen
03. Cedeno
04. Ryan
05. John
06. Bando
07. Long

[Tiboreau]

1. Y Cal McVey
2. Y Bret Saberhagen
3. Y Gavy Cravath
4. Y Dave Stieb
5. Y Quincy Trouppe
6. Y Urban Shocker
7. N Don Newcombe
8. N Robin Ventura
9. N Thurman Munson
10. N Dave Concepcion
11. N Bob Johnson
12. N Tommy Bridges
13. N Dick Redding
14. N Wally Berger
15. N Jim Kaat

1. Johnny Pesky
2. Reggie Smith
3. David Cone
4. Vern Stephens
5. Cesar Cedeno
6. Lance Parrish
7. Pete Browning

EDIT: 7 - 10 on first ballot have been changed from "Y" to "N" to better reflect the 231 player limit (thru 2003).

[Cougar]

PART I:

1. Kaat, Jim

2. Concepcion, Dave

3. Cravath, Gavvy

4. Johnson, Bob

5. Munson, Thurman

6. Newcombe, Don

7. Berger, Wally

8. Trouppe, Quincy

9. Shocker, Urban

10. Saberhagen, Bret

11. Bridges, Tommy

12. Ventura, Robin

13. Stieb, Dave

14. Redding, Dick

15. McVey, Cal

PART II: YES TO ALL.
------------------------

PART III:

1. Hodges, Gil

2. O’Doul, Lefty

3. John, Tommy,

4. Oliva, Tony

5. Vernon, Mickey

6. Rosen, Al

7. Ryan, Jimmy

[Cougar]

Try this...

More than enough...much appreciated.

[AstrosFan]

1. Johnson Y
2. Lundy Y
3. Stieb Y
4. Redding Y
5. Berger
6. Saberhagen
7. Ventura
8. Concepcion
9. Munson
10. Trouppe
11. Cravath
12. Bridges
13. Shocker
14. Newcombe
15. McVey
6. Trouppe

1. R Smith Y
2. Mullane Y
3. Cedeno
4. Staub
5. Ryan
6. Bando
7. Long

[Paul Wendt]

We have named only five pitchers among 55 players, and we would probably cut the number of pitchers in Cooperstown by five to ten. To me it seems clear that David Cone deserves the same consideration as Cooper, Mays, Shocker, Saberhagen, and Stieb. Presumably that consideration will put him in the HOVG three years later.

At the other end of the ballot, tonight it seems clear to me that Tommy John deserves this much recognition. Previously that has seemed clear about Lee Smith.

1 Cone
2 R.Smith
3 Ryan
4 Staub
5 Browning
6 Long
7 Bando
8 C.Smith
9 John

add: Only seven runoff votes are valid.

[PVNICK]

1. Concepcion - No to all
2. Berger
3. Bridges
4. Ventura
5. Johnson
6. McVey
7. Shocker
8. Munson
9. Saberhagen
10. Redding
11. Stieb
12. Trouppe
13. Kaat
14. Cravath
15. Newcombe

1. Cedeno
2. Smith, Reggie
3. Oliva
4. Bando
5. McCormick
6. Staub
7. Ryan

I might have switched things around from previous ballots.

[jalbright]

More than enough...much appreciated.

I know, I may go a bit overboard, but... glad to be of service.

[Reds5]

1. Y Cal McVey
2. YBob Johnson
3. Y Urban Shocker
4. Y Dave Concepcion
5.Y Thurman Munson
6. Y Gavy Cravath
7. N Dave Stieb
8. N Quincy Trouppe
9. N Don Newcombe
10. N Bret Saberhagen
11. N Jim Kaat
12. N Wally Berger
13. N Robin Ventura
14. N Tommy Bridges
15. N Dick Redding

Runoff
1.Jack Morris
2.Tony Mullane
3.Tony Oliva
4.Gil Hodges
5.Pete Browning
6.Herman Long
7.Vern Stephens

[Paul Wendt]

Final
1 Cal McVey - Yes
2 Gavy Cravath - Yes
3 Quincy Trouppe - Yes
4 Don Newcombe
5 Urban Shocker
6 Wally Berger
7 Dave Concepcion
8 Bret Saberhagen
9 Dave Stieb
10 Tommy Bridges
11 Bob Johnson
12 Dick Redding
13 Robin Ventura
14 Thurman Munson
15 Jim Kaat


Runoff (no change from my preliminary ballot except to cut from nine to seven slots)
1 Cone
2 R.Smith
3 Ryan
4 Staub
5 Browning
6 Long
7 Bando

[Fielding Marshall]

1. Tommy Bridges Y
2. Robin Ventura Y
3. Cal McVey Y
4. Wally Berger Y
5. Urban Shocker Y
6. Bob Johnson Y
7. Bret Saberhagen Y
8. Dick Redding Y
9. Dave Steib N
10. Thurman Munson N
11. Dave Concepcion N
12. Gavvy Cravath N
13. Quincy Trouppe N
14. Don Newcombe N
15. Jim Kaat N

1. David Cone
2. Jim McCormick
3. Rusty Staub
4. Tony Oliva
5. Wally Schang
6. Johnny Pesky
7. Cesar Cedeno

[Fielding Marshall]

Quincy Trouppe seems to have a shot at election...

[Freakshow]

Y-1 MCVEY
Y-2 Cravath
No below here
3 Redding
4 Shocker
5 Johnson B
6 SABERHAGEN
7 Newcombe
8 TROUPPE
9 Concepcion
10 Berger
11 Ventura
12 Bridges
13 STIEB
14 Munson
15 Kaat
Runoff
1 Ryan J
2 Mullane
3 Staub
4 SMITH R
5 Cedeno
6 Mattingly
7 Pesky

We'll leave this open a few more days. We have not yet heard from these voters:

Ace Venom
Brad Harris
Captain Cold Nose
gman5431
Sockeye
Windy City Fan

I'm leaning towards this being the last election I'll run. It's already lasted longer than I anticipated, and I think it's accomplished its primary aims. If anyone is interested in continuing the project I can help you get set up.

[Cougar]

I'm leaning towards this being the last election I'll run. It's already lasted longer than I anticipated, and I think it's accomplished its primary aims.

I'm inclined to agree. Most if not all of the candidates that are going to survive the BBF gauntlet have already made it...there's little point in having a series of elections where no one gets in. That makes us, um, just like the current iteration of the "Veterans Committee".

I believe if we continued a few more candidates from the 1800's or the Negro Leagues might slip though, but that's all.

The roster of nominees we have endorsed for enshrinement is an awfully good collection of Cooperstown's biggest omissions. It's not my own personal list, but it's close, and I think it's close to most people's.

This was fun. Many thanks to Freakshow and my fellow participants.

[Paul Wendt]

I, too, say thanks to Freakshow and the other participants.

I'm inclined to agree. Most if not all of the candidates that are going to survive the BBF gauntlet have already made it...there's little point in having a series of elections where no one gets in. That makes us, um, just like the current iteration of the "Veterans Committee".

Among 25 players on the current runoff ballot, the neighboring "Progressive" HOF has elected four: Pete Browning, Herman Long, Tony Mullane, and Jimmy Ryan. However, that project is certainly filling a hall larger than Cooperstown's.

Tony Mullane is the only Player member of the primary Baseball-Fever HOF (the one whose annual election opens proximately; Lefty O'Doul is a Contributor member). That hall does roughly match Cooperstown's size, discounting the members from Japan and one or two others. I doubt that Mullane would be a winner here. Rather, the different outcomes "easily" result from slightly different small electorates and slightly different group purposes.

I believe if we continued a few more candidates from the 1800's or the Negro Leagues might slip though, but that's all.

I agree. The four whites named above are all from the 1800s. Chino Smith is from the Negro Leagues.

--
After the final election is officially final, I'll say more along these comparative lines, with scope greater than the current runoff ballot. It happens that I have the runoff conveniently marked in my desktop baseball database.
(Runoff leaders by some other rankings:
- Rusty Staub is second to Mullane by career Win Shares.
- Reggie Smith is third to Mullane and Jim MCCormick by WAR.
- Bill James ranks Sal Bando highest at his primary fielding position, #11 at thirdbase. He also likes Mattingly #12 at first and Rosen #14 at third.
- Someone picked Lance Parrish #32 among 140 players in the "Inner Suburbs of Cooperstown" but we were required to pick ten balanced teams of fourteen which put up a premium on catchers.)