My 2009 BBWAA Ballot ...

[HecDel]

If I had an opportunity to vote as part of the BBWAA, my ballot for 2009 would look like this -
if you had a chance to vote what what yours look like ?

2009 American League Most Valuable Player

1st - Joe Mauer , MIN
2nd - Mark Teixeira, NY-A
3rd - Miguel Cabrera, DET
4th - Derek Jeter, NY-A
5th - Robinson Canó, NY-A
6th - Chone Figgins, LA-A
7th - Kendry Morales, LA-A
8th - Joe Nathan, MIN
9th - Mariano Rivera, NY-A
10th - Dustin Pedroia, BOS


2009 American League Cy Young Award

1st - Zack Greinke, KC
2nd - Félix Hernández, SEA
3rd - Roy Halladay, TOR


2009 American League Manager of the Year

1st - Ron Gardenhire, MIN
2nd - Joe Girardi, NY-A
3rd - Ron Washington, TEX


2009 American League Rookie of the Year

1st - Andrew Bailey, OAK
2nd - Elvis Andrus, TEX
3rd - Gordon Beckham, CH-A
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2009 National League Most Valuable Player

1st - Albert Pujols, STL
2nd - Prince Fielder, MIL
3rd - Ryan Howard, PHI
4th - Hanley Ramírez, FLA
5th - Ryan Braun, MIL
6th - Pablo Sandoval, SF
7th - Chase Utley, PHI
8th - Matt Kemp, LA-N
9th - Andre Ethier, LA-N
10th - Troy Tulowitzki, COL


2009 National League Cy Young Award

1st - Chris Carpenter, STL
2nd - Adam Wainwright, STL
3rd - Tim Lincecum, SF

2009 National League Manager of the Year

1st - Jim Tracy, COL
2nd - Fredi Gonzalez, FLA
3rd - Bobby Cox, ATL

2009 National League Rookie of the Year

1st - Chris Coghlan, FLA
2nd - Andrew McCutchen, PIT
3rd - J.A. Happ, PHI

[Rich the Giants fan]

Wainwright second? Seriously? Lincecum deserves it but I could live with Carpenter but Wainwright is a distant third at best.

[NJMetfan4life]

I don't have a vote, but if I did, it would look like this

AL MVP

1. Joe Mauer MIN
2. Mark Texiera
3. Miguel Cabrera
4. Carl Crawford
5. Carlos Pena
6. Jason Bay
7. Robinson Cano (very underrated, look at his stats if you don't believe me)
8. Chone Figgans
9. Justin Verlander
10. Mariano Rivera

AL Cy Young

1. Justin Verlander
2. Felix Hernandez
3. Mariano Rivera (He was that good)

AL Manager of the Year

1. Joe Girardi
2. Mike Scioscia
3. Ron Gardenshire

AL Rookie of the Year

1. Andrew Bailey
2. Elvis Andrus
3. Gordon Beckham

______________________________________________

NL MVP

1. Albert Pujols
2. Hanley Rameriez
3. Price Fielder
4. Ryan Braun
5. Ryan Howard
6. Ryan Zimmerman
7. Pablo Sandoval
8. Adrian Gonzalez
9. Chris Carpenter
10. Carlos Lee

NL Cy Young

1. Chris Carpenter
2. Tim Lincecum
3. Adam Wainwright

NL Manager of the Year

1. Jim Tracey
2. Tony LaRussa
3. Bruce Bochy

NL Rookie of the Year

1. Chris Couglan
2. Andrew McCuthen
3. J.A. Happ

[Rich the Giants fan]

Wainwright second? Seriously? Lincecum deserves it but I could live with Carpenter but Wainwright is a distant third at best.

Let me amend that. Wainwright is a distant 4th at best behind Lincecum, Carpenter and Vazquez.

[Milt on Tilt]

AL Cy Young

1. Justin Verlander
2. Felix Hernandez
3. Mariano Rivera (He was that good)

I want to point out and ridicule you for not having Greinke in your top 3. Have you been listening to Jim Rice?

[NJMetfan4life]

I want to point out and ridicule you for not having Greinke in your top 3. Have you been listening to Jim Rice?

I personally don't think Greinke is that good. I think that he's a one year wonder.

[Armster]

I personally don't think Greinke is that good. I think that he's a one year wonder.

Who cares if he's a one year wonder? The voters have enough issues without having to worry about predicting the future in award voting. He had a dominant season...

[NJMetfan4life]

Who cares if he's a one year wonder? The voters have enough issues without having to worry about predicting the future in award voting. He had a dominant season...

That was just backing up my statement of why I don't think he is that good.

[Armster]

That was just backing up my statement of why I don't think he is that good.

Okay but your back-up still has nothing to with why he shouldn't win a Cy Young. I digress on that though.

Anyways, I will give you Hernandez as a legitimate choice over Greinke, he was good. Let's start with Verlander? How does he get a spot over Greinke?

[NJMetfan4life]

Okay but your back-up still has nothing to with why he shouldn't win a Cy Young. I digress on that though.

Anyways, I will give you Hernandez as a legitimate choice over Greinke, he was good. Let's start with Verlander? How does he get a spot over Greinke?

Well, it can't possibly be the MLB leading: Innings Pitched (240), strikeouts (269), win total (19, but tied with 3 others), or Games started (35). NO that's much too obvious, I just said all of this to screw with you.

[NYMets523]

AL Manager of the Year

1. Joe Girardi
2. Mike Scioscia
3. Ron Gardenshire

Really? Girardi only had to deal with 1 mediocre month. After that, he just rode a team that finally played up to their talent. Mike Scioscia had to deal with several injured players, basically no starting rotation, and a player getting killed early on. They also had to surpass the Rangers in the standing.

Gardenhire's team won something like 16 of their last 21 (without Justin Morneau) to force the one game playoff.

Girardi should be 3rd at best.

[ol' aches and pains]

If Greinke is a one-year-wonder, so what? It's not a lifetime acheivement award, it's the best pitcher in the AL in 2009. Reward him for that one year, and let the rest of his career take care of itself.

And while I'm at it, Elvis Andrus rated above Gordon Beckham for AL ROY?

Beckham beats Elvis
63 to 40 in RBI
.347 to .329 in OBP
.460 to .373 in SLG
106 to 85 in OPS+

Beckham led AL rookies in RBI's and doubles despite not being called up until June 4th.

[NJMetfan4life]

Really? Girardi only had to deal with 1 mediocre month. After that, he just rode a team that finally played up to their talent. Mike Scioscia had to deal with several injured players, basically no starting rotation, and a player getting killed early on. They also had to surpass the Rangers in the standing.

Gardenhire's team won something like 16 of their last 21 (without Justin Morneau) to force the one game playoff.

Girardi should be 3rd at best.

Noted...

If Greinke is a one-year-wonder, so what? It's not a lifetime acheivement award, it's the best pitcher in the AL in 2009. Reward him for that one year, and let the rest of his career take care of itself.

And while I'm at it, Elvis Andrus rated above Gordon Beckham for AL ROY?

Beckham beats Elvis
63 to 40 in RBI
.347 to .329 in OBP
.460 to .373 in SLG
106 to 85 in OPS+

Beckham led AL rookies in RBI's and doubles despite not being called up until June 4th.

I explained my reasoning about Greinke above, and while I'm at it, my posted ROY votes are the same votes as the person who actually gets a vote in the OFFICIAL BBWAA. My don't matter to anyone but myself.

[tearforamariner]

my posted ROY votes are the same votes as the person who actually gets a vote in the OFFICIAL BBWAA.

Who is that exactly?



About Verlander vs. Greinke:

Greinke was 10.2 IP and 27 K shy of Verlander. I really don't think you can make a serious argument that that makes up for the difference in a 2.16 ERA and a 3.45 ERA. That's the difference between a 203 ERA+ and a 132 ERA+. Or the difference between a WARP3 of 11.7 and and one of 6.9.

It doesn't matter if you think he's a one year wonder, CYA is given to the best pitcher of a given YEAR. Statistically, there is no argument for Verlander over Greinke. I mean, seriously, do you honestly think a guy with a 3.45 ERA over 240 IP is better than a guy with a 2.16 ERA over 229.1 IP?

[Milt on Tilt]

No no no. He clearly lucked himself into that 2.16 ERA. Or the AL Central is so weak. But Verlander is in the Central too......Greinke didn't help his team win, or something.

Anybody's reasoning for not having Greinke #1 can be listened to. Anyone's reasoning for not having him top three because they didn't think he was that good is just crazy talk. That's like me taking the Twins in the ALDS and saying its because I don't think the Yankees are that good.

[Rich the Giants fan]

I personally don't think Greinke is that good. I think that he's a one year wonder.

Which means the year he's been wonderous he doesn't deserve the vote? That's more absurd than basing the vote strictly on wins alone.

[Rich the Giants fan]

If Greinke is a one-year-wonder, so what? It's not a lifetime acheivement award, it's the best pitcher in the AL in 2009. Reward him for that one year, and let the rest of his career take care of itself.

And while I'm at it, Elvis Andrus rated above Gordon Beckham for AL ROY?

Beckham beats Elvis
63 to 40 in RBI
.347 to .329 in OBP
.460 to .373 in SLG
106 to 85 in OPS+

Beckham led AL rookies in RBI's and doubles despite not being called up until June 4th.

Consider defense.

[EricAnno]

Well, it can't possibly be the MLB leading: Innings Pitched (240), strikeouts (269), win total (19, but tied with 3 others), or Games started (35). NO that's much too obvious, I just said all of this to screw with you.

Starts and innings? Really?

Wins are terrible, awful and you should know that. Verlander got nearly five runs a game, while Greinke got less than four. Greinke went 0-4 in six starts from July 3rd to August 3rd. During that stretch, his ERA was 3.65. If he had gotten the run support that Verlander had, Greinke would've been, what, 20-4? At least?

Anyways, wins are terrible stats.

Grienke has the edge in ERA+ by 71 points. 71. He has the edge in WHIP by .102. He has a lead in pitcher's VORP by nearly 30. Greinke's BABIP is lower. He has leads in H/9, BB/9, BB/9, WARP, and God knows how many other categories. I can't possibly fathom why you are picking Justin Verlander (whose Tigers choked hard, by the way) over Greinke. Hell, at least pick King Felix for the award. Verlander isn't anywhere near King Felix, let alone Greinke.

You said that you wouldn't give the award to Greinke because "he's not that good". Well, if Greinke hasn't been "that good" this season, than Verlander is like Jose Lima. And you said that he was like a one-hit wonder or something like that? Really? How many good seasons has Verlander had? He's inconsistent. He had decent seasons in his rookie and sophomore years, and he was flat-awful last season. The last three seasons, Greinke's ERA+ has been higher than Verlander's.

Once again, I can't begin to fathom how you see Verlander as a better candidate than Greinke, Hernandez, or Halladay for that matter.

[Rich the Giants fan]

Wins are not "terrible" stats. They are very often overvalued in this day and age of pitch counts and bullpen specialization (though undervalued by many at the same time, IMO), but not terrible per se. They should hardly be a primary or deciding factor, but they are definitely not terrible. Bad pitchers rarely, if ever, win 15+ games in a year simply by accident or good fortune.

Certainly over the course of a career, water will find its level and the better pitchers will generally end up with more wins than losses while the opposite will be true of lesser pitchers.

Win (and loss) totals tell you something, you just need to value them appropriately.

[Rich the Giants fan]

The last three seasons, Greinke's ERA+ has been lower than Verlander's.

You meant higher, I'm sure.

[KCGHOST]

If you don't think Greinke is your AL CYA winner is okay. We all have opinions. To say he is a one year wonder is simply wrong. You could see this coming since 2007. It may have gotten hidden from many fans of the game because he is part of a crappy team, but you could see in 2007 that he was starting to put it together.

Any sensible discussion of the AL CYA should center around Greinke, Hernandez, and Halladay in the order you prefer. I would bet my life's savings that had Greinke played on any other team in the Al he would have cruised to 20 wins. The Royals are horrible defensively and offensively. And for what it is worth the Royals performed at a lower level when Greinke than when the other starters were out there.

[EricAnno]

You meant higher, I'm sure.

Yes, I did.

Thanks for pointing that out, Rich. Greatly appreciated.

[EricAnno]

Wins are not "terrible" stats. They are very often overvalued in this day and age of pitch counts and bullpen specialization (though undervalued by many at the same time, IMO), but not terrible per se. They should hardly be a primary or deciding factor, but they are definitely not terrible. Bad pitchers rarely, if ever, win 15+ games in a year simply by accident or good fortune.

Certainly over the course of a career, water will find its level and the better pitchers will generally end up with more wins than losses while the opposite will be true of lesser pitchers.

Win (and loss) totals tell you something, you just need to value them appropriately.

I meant that they are terrible stats when you consider the Cy Young. Especially when you have WHIP and ERA+ and countless other stats that are far less misleading than wins and losses. Bob Welch won the 1990 Cy Young depsite the fact that Roger Clemens was more deserving in just about every other stat. WHIP, H/9, K/9, BB/9, K/BB, ERA+, ERA, K's, BB, and VORP (he had a 30-point advantage). Welch had 27 wins, Clemens had 21. Welch got nearly a full run more support than Clemens.

Hell, Aaron Sele placed fifth for the 1999 Cy Young. He won 18 games (with over six runs of support a game) and managed a 107 ERA+. Fifth place.

My point is that he uses wins to explain his reasoning behind Verlander for the Cy Young over Greinke. Verlander played for a much better team and got more run support, but Greinke is better in damn near every stat.

Wins are extremely misleading, especially when you take into account how much more support Verlander gets from a good offense like the Tigers than Greinke.

[9RoyHobbsRF]

Adam Wainwright did not make the NL top ten in hits per 9, BB per 9, HR per 9 or K per 9

he had the fourth highest run support in the league (80 starters) and pitched well enough to , along with the run support, win 19 games

I would not have him in my top 2, possibly not in my top 4 for NL CY

I can see Carpenter beating Lincecum, I can see Lincecum beating Carpenter

I can not see Wainwright beating either

[NJMetfan4life]

Everyone is entitled to there own opinion, I have mine, you have yours, leave me be.