Is Rolling the Wrists Actually a Problem?

**FiveFrameSwing** · 10-13-2009, 05:12 PM

Originally Posted by Chris O'Leary

If they are hitting it perfectly centered, then is there a power problem? I could see them hitting over or under the ball by rolling too soon, but I'm having a hard time seeing how this will create a power problem if they square the ball up.

Yes, I have game footage of hitters looking to make what appears to be perfect contact, yet directing the ball almost directly down into the ground.

Let me try this another way. We teach pitchers three important aspects of the pitch ... "location", "spin" and "speed". What is a hitter doing when they roll their wrists ... they are in a sense putting "spin" on the bat barrel. In a sense, they are helping the pitcher out.

Okay ... that was a bad analogy. Bottom-line ... premature wrist rollover is a big deal ... and IMO you want to build hitting mechanics that are void of this issue.

**FiveFrameSwing** · 10-13-2009, 05:18 PM

Originally Posted by Chris O'Leary

He didn't make that big of a deal when we talked. He was focused on the finish.

Hmm ... you got into a discussion with Lau Jr and the focus was on the 'finish'?

Okay ... I can understand that Lau uses the finish for confirmation purposes, but if it were me, I would have attempted to direct the conversation elsewhere. I would have reviewed his material in enough depth to get more out of our conversation. And I would suggest that if you have reviewed his information in depth, that you know that he considers premature wrist rollover to be a significant issue.

**Chris O'Leary** · 10-13-2009, 05:24 PM

Originally Posted by FiveFrameSwing

Hmm ... you got into a discussion with Lau Jr and the focus was on the 'finish'?

Okay ... I can understand that Lau uses the finish for confirmation purposes, but if it were me, I would have attempted to direct the conversation elsewhere. I would have reviewed his material in enough depth to get more out of our conversation. And I would suggest that if you have reviewed his information in depth, that you know that he considers premature wrist rollover to be a significant issue.

I read his stuff multiple times in anticipation of spending a couple of days with him.

The choice of the finish as the focal point was his, not mine.

I don't know if JJA can confirm that he is still focusing along these lines.

**Chris O'Leary** · 10-13-2009, 05:29 PM

Originally Posted by FiveFrameSwing

Yes, I have game footage of hitters looking to make what appears to be perfect contact, yet directing the ball almost directly down into the ground.

So I happened to have this clip already processed and in my files.

What I see is him topping a ball and driving it into the ground, probably because his habit was to try to pull outside pitches and good pitchers knew it and ate him alive as a result, but I don't see a problem with the wrists rolling early.

In fact, I would think it would be quite hard to roll the wrists early on an outside pitch.

P.S. I'm not picking on you. I'm just wondering if the conventional wisdom is wrong. I'll look at more clips in my library and see what I see.

P.P.S. Notice the sine wave in the bat, which reinforces some of Alan Nathan's contentions about resonance and hitting.

**FiveFrameSwing** · 10-13-2009, 05:31 PM

Lau Jr:
“The Insider Bat is a truly innovative hitting aid that identifies and eliminates the most common flaws in any hitter’s swing, from little leaguers to professionals.

I immediately identified how the Insider Bat directly translates the Lau hitting philosophy to the student with little coaching. In my opinion there is not a more simple and complete hitting aid in respect to proper hand path/position than the Insider Bat.”

Insider Bat - followup link

**BoardMember** · 10-13-2009, 05:34 PM

I can see/understand several reasons why premature roll causes sub-optimal results....

1.) you can't roll unless you've prematurely released.......
2.) force application is minimized when the wrists are place in a compromised position for that application.....
3.) if the bat is not released prior to the roll the bat head will deflect based on the compound angles at work.
4.) roll is a byproduct of extension.....not a cause.........

I could go on but why bother.......enough is enough........

**Chris O'Leary** · 10-13-2009, 05:35 PM

Originally Posted by FiveFrameSwing

Lau Jr:
“The Insider Bat is a truly innovative hitting aid that identifies and eliminates the most common flaws in any hitter’s swing, from little leaguers to professionals.

I immediately identified how the Insider Bat directly translates the Lau hitting philosophy to the student with little coaching. In my opinion there is not a more simple and complete hitting aid in respect to proper hand path/position than the Insider Bat.”

Insider Bat - followup link

I know Charley's a big believer in Palm Up, Palm Down at the POC, but do you have any photos or video that you can post of someone who's not PUPD at the POC who wasn't horribly fooled?

**FiveFrameSwing** · 10-13-2009, 05:38 PM

Originally Posted by Chris O'Leary

So I happened to have this clip already processed and in my files.

What I see is him topping a ball and driving it into the ground, probably because his habit was to try to pull outside pitches and good pitchers knew it and ate him alive as a result, but I don't see a problem with the wrists rolling early.

In fact, I would think it would be quite hard to roll the wrists early on an outside pitch.

P.S. I'm not picking on you. I'm just wondering if the conventional wisdom is wrong. I'll look at more clips in my library and see what I see.

P.P.S. Notice the sine wave in the bat, which reinforces some of Alan Nathan's contentions about resonance and hitting.

You're not picking on me?

That's good ... because you are also not making a lot of sense.

This, IMO, is not an example of premature wrist rollover.

Please ... stay on track ... or if you need to change the topic then start another thread.

There are many reasons that one could drive the ball into the ground.

Please ... stick to your original topic.

**Chris O'Leary** · 10-13-2009, 05:43 PM

Originally Posted by FiveFrameSwing

You're not picking on me?

That's good ... because you are also not making a lot of sense.

This, IMO, is not an example of premature wrist rollover.

Please ... stay on track ... or if you need to change the topic then start another thread.

I'm not changing the subject, I'm just saying I have yet to ever see visual evidence of this problem, which makes me wonder if it's being misdiagnosed.

I look through my video library later tonight.

**FiveFrameSwing** · 10-13-2009, 05:44 PM

Originally Posted by Chris O'Leary

I know Charley's a big believer in Palm Up, Palm Down at the POC, but do you have any photos or video that you can post of someone who's not PUPD at the POC who wasn't horribly fooled?

Chris, I'm not at liberty to share the video of students that I've worked with.

All this discussion is unnecessary. Premature wrist rollover is an easy issue to address. If you see it in a student's swing, then why not make that one of their "points of emphasis" for a lesson and put the issue to bed?

**FiveFrameSwing** · 10-13-2009, 05:50 PM

Originally Posted by Chris O'Leary

I'm not changing the subject, I'm just saying I have yet to ever see visual evidence of this problem, which makes me wonder if it's being misdiagnosed.

I look through my video library later tonight.

I haven't seen it in the videos of professionals ... but I have seen it in amateurs. To me it's easy enough to detect with the naked eye. With video I've been able to show students that they appeared to be successful in centering the bat on the ball, yet drove the ball into the ground.

I guess I don't understand. If you work with enough kids you'll see this issue ... and with experience you know that it doesn't take a lot of time to address.

I guess what I'm hearing is that you are not at the point where you can detect it or not.

Not an issue. We've all been at that point.

Post a video of the kid, or Email it to me, and I'll comment on it.

I believe you have my Email address from the time I sent you the Epstein material.

**FiveFrameSwing** · 10-13-2009, 06:17 PM

Originally Posted by Chris O'Leary

What's the logic of the 45 degree angle? Doesn't that mean you should pull hook everything if you are swinging well? Also, due to the lighter mass you aren't going to get the double pendulum effect and the whip.

I believe this is the feature that promotes a “connected” swing (i.e., “staying inside the ball” … as in Insider Bat).

**kylebee** · 10-13-2009, 07:23 PM

From a purely kinesiological standpoint, rolling the wrists prior to contact is an inefficient force transmitter and will cause significant loss in force transmitted to the ball. Though the wrists and hands themselves contribute very little power in the swing, they are the final link in the chain that delivers all the accumulated force from the kinetic link built up from the ground, transmitted proximal to distal, largest segments to smallest.

This would seem to indicate that it is a significant problem.

**Chris O'Leary** · 10-13-2009, 07:30 PM

Originally Posted by kylebee

From a purely kinesiological standpoint, rolling the wrists prior to contact is an inefficient force transmitter and will cause significant loss in force transmitted to the ball. Though the wrists and hands themselves contribute very little power in the swing, they are the final link in the chain that delivers all the accumulated force from the kinetic link built up from the ground, transmitted proximal to distal, largest segments to smallest.

This would seem to indicate that it is a significant problem.

This all makes sense in theory, but what I'm looking for is a single picture or video clip that shows that it's actually a problem.

**kylebee** · 10-13-2009, 07:32 PM

Originally Posted by Chris O'Leary

This all makes sense in theory, but what I'm looking for is a single picture or video clip that shows that it's actually a problem.

It happens all the time with amateur hitters. You don't get far when you have this problem. This is why you don't see it.

**Chris O'Leary** · 10-13-2009, 07:33 PM

Originally Posted by FiveFrameSwing

With video I've been able to show students that they appeared to be successful in centering the bat on the ball, yet drove the ball into the ground.

How can you center the ball but drive it into the ground, unless you hit it very early on in the swing (on the way down, before the swing bottoms out)?

**Chris O'Leary** · 10-13-2009, 07:57 PM

Is this an example of the wrists rolling too early?

He pounds this ball into the ground (to 3B), probably because he tried to pull an outside pitch.

**FiveFrameSwing** · 10-13-2009, 08:21 PM

Originally Posted by Chris O'Leary

Is this an example of the wrists rolling too early?

He pounds this ball into the ground (to 3B), probably because he tried to pull an outside pitch.

No Chris. I think you should listen to Kylebee. You aren't going to see this issue at the professional level. You'll need to look elsewhere for the clips.

**Chris O'Leary** · 10-13-2009, 08:26 PM

Originally Posted by kylebee

It happens all the time with amateur hitters. You don't get far when you have this problem. This is why you don't see it.

Alright.

Let me look at some of my youth footage.

P.S. I will say that I wonder if some of this is a strength thing that is hard to fix, except with age.

**FiveFrameSwing** · 10-13-2009, 08:43 PM

Originally Posted by Chris O'Leary

Alright.

Let me look at some of my youth footage.

P.S. I will say that I wonder if some of this is a strength thing that is hard to fix, except with age.

Gosh darn it Chris ... it's SIMPLE to fix.

**LAball** · 10-13-2009, 08:43 PM

I think in the movie Mr Baseball w/ Tom Selleck, the Japanese points out that Tom rolls his wrist early creating a hole in his swing. I know its only a movie, but at least it relates,

**Chris O'Leary** · 10-13-2009, 08:46 PM

Originally Posted by LAball

I think in the movie Mr Baseball w/ Tom Selleck, the Japanese points out that Tom rolls his wrist early creating a hole in his swing. I know its only a movie, but at least it relates,

But we've already established that it's not a problem with adults.

**FiveFrameSwing** · 10-13-2009, 09:04 PM

Originally Posted by Chris O'Leary

But we've already established that it's not a problem with adults.

You claim to work with pros, and yet you don't know if prematurely rolling one's wrists is an issue or not?

C'mon Chris ... is this thread a joke? Are you being totally serious? Do you really wonder if rolling the wrists early is an issue? Have you tried doing this in the cages with success?

**Chris O'Leary** · 10-13-2009, 09:11 PM

Originally Posted by FiveFrameSwing

You claim to work with pros, and yet you don't know if prematurely rolling one's wrists is an issue or not?

Where's an example of it?

I'm going through my clips and have yet to find one.

Originally Posted by FiveFrameSwing

C'mon Chris ... is this thread a joke? Are you being totally serious? Do you really wonder if rolling the wrists early is an issue? Have you tried doing this in the cages with success?

I'm starting to think two things...

1. Other problems are being misdiagnosed as having to do with wrist rolling.
2. Wrist action is a non-teach.