In my opinion, Jim Rice should be nowhere near the Hall of Fame. He's not even in the top 100 in OWP, OPS+, runs created, adjusted batting runs, or adjusted batting wins. His OBP is...well...not good at all, at just over .350. He walked only 670 times in 9,050 plate appearances (averages out to one every 13 and a half at-bats). His SLG is good, and the .298 BA is decent (I don't like batting average though), so are the home run and RsBI numbers.
But his power numbers, and just his numbers in general are severely inflated by the fact that he played at Fenway Park. He was not a great defensively player at the easiest outfield position.
Rice's line:
.298/.352/.502/.854, 128 OPS+
382 home runs, 1,451 RsBI, 373 doubles, 4,129 total bases, 2,452 hits
1,384 runs created, 295 adjusted batting runs, 28.9 adjusted batting wins, .627 OWP, 282 win shares
On the other hand, we have Will "the Thrill" Clark.
Will was one of the best players of his time, much like Rice was. Like Rice, Clark was also a better hitter at home than he was on the road. However, Clark played at Candlestick, which is known as more of a pitcher's park than a hitter's park, and his difference in OPS is not nearly as substantial as Rice's is. Clark OPSed .905 at Candlestick and his other home ballparks, and .855 everywhere else. Rice OPSed .920 at Fenway and .789 everywhere else. Clark's difference is only 50 points, while Rice's is 131 points.
The careers of Will Clark and Jim Rice were both short, last just 15 and 16 years, respectively. There is only 113 games seperating the two, and 775 plate appearances.
Clark's line:
.303/.384/.497/.880, 137 OPS+
284 home runs, 1,205 RsBI, 440 doubles, 3,562 total bases, 2,176 hits
1,415 runs created, 405 adjusted batting runs, 39.7 adjusted batting wins, .685 OWP, 331 win shares
Clark betters Rice in the each of the following categories:
BA (.303 to .298)
OBP (.384 to .352)
OPS (.880 to .854)
OPS+ (137 to 128)
Doubles (440 to 373)
Walks (937 to 670)
Runs created (1,415 to 1,384)
Adj. Batting Runs (405 to 295)
Adj. Batting Wins (39.7 to 28.9)
Offensive Win % (.685 to .627)
Win shares (331 to 282)
Despite the claims of how feared Rice was, Clark also has 78 more IBB
In my opinion, Will Clark was a FAR better player than Rice.
I would love for someone to explain to me why Rice lasts 15 years and finally gets elected, but Will the Thrill can't even get 5% on his first try. If Jim Rice can make it to the Hall of Fame, than Will more than deserves it. And he more than deserves it more than Jim Rice.
*And my word selection in that last sentence is intentionally bad.
#$!&@* the heck?!?
Registered User
Well, Jim Rice is off the ballot too, now.
Many of us agree. You aren't preaching to the choir but it may be a majority.Originally Posted by EricAnno
That seems to be the open question.I would love for someone to explain to me why Rice lasts 15 years and finally gets elected, but Will the Thrill can't even get 5% on his first try.
My personal opinion is that the crowded ballot results in perverse outcomes like Clark (and Dewey Evans, and Lou Whitaker, and Ted Simmons, etc.) bouncing off the ballot.
My preferred solution is abolishing the 10 person maximum rule, established when baseball had about half as many teams.
This is the sort of notoriety that playing in Boston or New York can get you. There are a number of deserving players that are not enshrined in Cooperstown. Either their 15 years of eligibility expired or they couldn't get their due on a first ballot appearance. Clark's case is one of injuries derailing a career that should have been better than it ultimately was. There are also ultimately other problems during the time that Clark played with the great elephant in the room being performance enhancing drugs. Clark is going to inevitably be compared to the likes of McGwire and Palmeiro while simultaneously having to deal with Thomas, Bagwell and McGriff. Clark just wasn't a top tier first baseman of the era, but he deserved a lot better than he got. He certainly deserves to be in the Hall of Fame without question.
Last edited by Ace Venom; 11-01-2009 at 10:45 AM.
The Hawk has landed. Congratulations, Andre Dawson. You deserved it.
10 14 23 26 31 31 42
What's missing? Retire #8 for Andre Dawson.
From 1987-1992, Will Clark was the best first baseman in the National League. Period. Who was better over that six (6) year period? There were a number of good players at 1B during that period, but based on defensive skills and Offensive Winning Percentage, Will Clark was the best 1B in the NL during that span of time.
It's arguable that Clark was the best first baseman in baseball over that span of time as well. Mattingly had faded, McGwire was NOT the offensive player Clark was, based on OWP (McGwire went from .727 to .426 in OWP over that period, a HUGE swing, and some of the guys that later overshadowed Clark (Frank Thomas, Rafael Palmiero, Jeff Bagwell) had not yet come into their own. Keith Hernandez had faded, and Cecil Fielder was a one-year wonder who made no defensive contribution.
The only serious competitor for best 1B in those years was Fred McGriff, and it's close. I could argue either way, but Clark had the higher single season OWP and he had the higher OWP for his career, but McGriff had a higher OWP over those years by a tiny margin, so the tiebreaker comes down to (A) do you give Clark points for the higher peak or McGriff for greater consistency year to year and (B) which player do you think made the greater defensive contribution.
Clark wasn't a mega-slugger, and he had injury problems in the 1990s that caused him to miss some time, but he retired after one of his best seasons ever. It may have been a good move in terms of the HOF long run; Clark would not have been a great HOF candidate had his BA dropped below .300, given his lack of a HUGE number of HRs. But Clark's fast finish is somewhat forgotten; he's perceived as finishing as a backup, even though his last season was a season of regular play. The statement that Clark was never one of the top tier first basemen is a reflection of Clark's image, totally unjustified by any examination of his stats, and the stats of other first basemen, during the best 6 years of his career.
"I do not care if half the league strikes. Those who do it will encounter quick retribution. All will be suspended and I don't care if it wrecks the National League for five years. This is the United States of America and one citizen has as much right play as another. The National League will go down the line with Robinson whatever the consequences. You will find if you go through with your intention that you have been guilty of complete madness."
NL President Ford Frick, 1947
Being a far better player than Jim Rice does not mean that a player should be in the Hall of Fame.
It is simply confirmation that Rice should not be.
Personally, I would love to see Mattingly in, who in a lot of ways is similar to Clark (great prime, great D, but short prime). Better than a lot of guys in there.
But I don't want to see the Hall watered down anymore than it is.
Don't compare players to Rice or Perez and say they should be in the Hall if those guys are. Next thing you know they will need to expand the Hall to the entire town of Cooperstown.
The problem for clark is that the was a 1b. .300 career BA and 137 OPS+ is good, but 1b is a power position and normally players at this position need well over 400 HRs to get in the Hall.
Maybe not fair, but that's the way it works unless you have a koufax like prime on a short cut career which clark didn't.
Clark had power, and while he didn't hit quite as many HRs as the McCovey type 1B guys, he hit for a much better BA, plus he walked a lot, and played great defense. He was a five-tool guy at 1B, yet he's somewhat penalized for it.
The real issue is why Mattingly is more highly rated than Clark. Mattingly won Gold Gloves, and his peak was higher, but he faded so badly due to back problems that his lifetime OWP was way, way below Clark's. (Lower than Jim Rice's, I believe.)
"I do not care if half the league strikes. Those who do it will encounter quick retribution. All will be suspended and I don't care if it wrecks the National League for five years. This is the United States of America and one citizen has as much right play as another. The National League will go down the line with Robinson whatever the consequences. You will find if you go through with your intention that you have been guilty of complete madness."
NL President Ford Frick, 1947
Putting Will Clark in the Hall of Fame would not water it down at all.
As Fuzzy pointed out, Clark was one of the best players of his time and was, for a short period of time, the best first baseman in the game.
#$!&@* the heck?!?
It baffles me.
Mattingly's career OWP is .619, Rice's is .627, Clark's is .685.
I think Clark was better than Mattingly defensively, but Mattingly didn't have competition like the Big Cat, Keith Hernandez, and Mark Grace for the Gold Glove (which I think are fairly meaningless anyways).
#$!&@* the heck?!?
I think Clark's biggest drawback is this: if you look at Fred Mcgriff, he is seen as a borderline Hall Of Famer at best. He is also an exact contemporary of Clark, and noticeably superior. He had about the same rate stats, but played much longer, and put up much better counting stats. If one were to call Clark a hall of famer, you would have to admit that Mcgriff would have to fall somewhere in the middle of hall of fame first basemen. i really do not think this is the case, though I like Mcgriff. Most reasonable people would consider him barely above the threshold at best, therefore Clark cannot also be above the same threshold.
It is not rocket science as to why Rice is in and Clark is not. These guys were in the middle of the order in their respective lineups, and thus are seen as being expected to hit home runs and drive in runs. Will Clark had 284 home runs and 1205 RbI, despite playing most of his career in the best offensive era ever. This is simply not good enough for a first baseman. Rice was much better in these categories despite playing in an era more known for pitching. Bernie Williams matches Clark's numbers across the board, and was a multiple time gold glover in center field. Ditto Jim Edmonds. These guys are not seen as hall of famers, so why should Clark?
Williams and Edmonds are seen as borderline HOF candidates though.
And perhaps Fred McGriff was better than people think? He was certainly well regarded during his peak, with six top-ten MVP finishes. He is 152nd in MVP shares... higher than Carlton Fisk and Wade Boggs and right behind Paul Molitor. Not that MVP shares are a great statistical measure of a HOF career, but they do indicate general opinion of the day.
I decided to take a look... 86 of the top 135 players in history in career win shares are in the HOF, and 22 (including Rose and Jackson) are ineligible as of yet. Taking them out of the equation, we're left with 86/113 players, or 76%. It is after Joe Gordon in 135th place that we start seeing HOFers get more scarce on the list, with only 3/16 between Gordon and McGriff in Cooperstown (two are ineligible as of yet)... however, the rest of the top 200 is still littered with HOFers.
The eligible list outside Cooperstown, including Clark, and McGriff:
Dave Parker (28th)
Steve Garvey (55th)
Albert Belle (64th)
George Foster (65th)
Andre Dawson (66th)
Dale Murphy (67th)
Pedro Guerrero (69th)
Don Mattingly (74th)
Vern Stephens (80th)
Keith Hernandez (82nd)
Boog Powell (90th)
Mark McGwire (91st)
George Bell (96th)
Frank McCormick (99th)
Minnie Minoso (99th)
Tony Oliva (99th)
Matt Williams (105th)
Will Clark (107th)
Maury Wills (107th)
Darryl Strawberry (118th)
Cecil Fielder (119th)
Bucky Walters (119th)
Dick Allen (126th)
Ken Boyer (130th)
Dick Groat (136th)
Greg Luzinski (138th)
Jose Canseco (139th)
Mo Vaughn (139th)
Terry Pendleton (141st)
Thurman Munson (142nd)
Eston Howard (143rd)
Dixie Walker (145th)
Rocky Colavito (146th)
Joe Torre (146th)
Ken Singleton (148th)
Fred McGriff (152nd)
Lefty O'Doul (152nd)
Fred Lynn (154th)
Roger Maris (154th)
Mort Cooper (158th)
Sal Bando (160th)
Cecil Cooper (162nd)
Ted Kluszewski (164th)
Jake Daubert (167th)
Denny McLain (167th)
Joe Carter (170th)
Hughie Critz (171st)
Bill Freehan (171st)
Paul Derringer (175th)
Al Oliver (176th)
Dan Quisenberry (176th)
Bobby Bonilla (180th)
Dolph Camilli (180th)
Bill Nicholson (180th)
Al Rosen (180th)
Ron Santo (180th)
Lon Warneke (180th)
Alan Trammell (186th)
Bob Elliott (188th)
Kevin Mitchell (188th)
George Burns (197th)
Larry Doyle (197th)
Wes Ferrell (197th)
Sal Maglie (200th)
...the list reads like a who's-who of near HOF players since 1960, many of which have been endorsed for Cooperstown by our board. Every one of the non-eligible players has a HOF case as well, though some are quite young. Mattingly and Clark however look in better company than McGriff. There are a lot of people up top with significant 1B time too. So I may have shot down my own argument.
"The cavalry is coming. There are guys on the way and they're going to get here quickly." ~Dave Trembley
I personally think both Clark & Rice should not be in the HOF.
Same here, but Clark is at least in the mid 100s in MLB, maybe in the 140-170 range.
Rice is around 100 slots lower.
Where's Santo, Whitaker, Dahlen? This just proves to me that raw win-shares is not a good way to rate hall of famers. And I thought Allen was a lot higher. Parker 28th?Williams and Edmonds are seen as borderline HOF candidates though.
And perhaps Fred McGriff was better than people think? He was certainly well regarded during his peak, with six top-ten MVP finishes. He is 152nd in MVP shares... higher than Carlton Fisk and Wade Boggs and right behind Paul Molitor. Not that MVP shares are a great statistical measure of a HOF career, but they do indicate general opinion of the day.
I decided to take a look... 86 of the top 135 players in history in career win shares are in the HOF, and 22 (including Rose and Jackson) are ineligible as of yet. Taking them out of the equation, we're left with 86/113 players, or 76%. It is after Joe Gordon in 135th place that we start seeing HOFers get more scarce on the list, with only 3/16 between Gordon and McGriff in Cooperstown (two are ineligible as of yet)... however, the rest of the top 200 is still littered with HOFers.
The eligible list outside Cooperstown, including Clark, and McGriff:
Dave Parker (28th)
Steve Garvey (55th)
Albert Belle (64th)
George Foster (65th)
Andre Dawson (66th)
Dale Murphy (67th)
Pedro Guerrero (69th)
Don Mattingly (74th)
Vern Stephens (80th)
Keith Hernandez (82nd)
Boog Powell (90th)
Mark McGwire (91st)
George Bell (96th)
Frank McCormick (99th)
Minnie Minoso (99th)
Tony Oliva (99th)
Matt Williams (105th)
Will Clark (107th)
Maury Wills (107th)
Darryl Strawberry (118th)
Cecil Fielder (119th)
Bucky Walters (119th)
Dick Allen (126th)
Ken Boyer (130th)
Dick Groat (136th)
Greg Luzinski (138th)
Jose Canseco (139th)
Mo Vaughn (139th)
Terry Pendleton (141st)
Thurman Munson (142nd)
Eston Howard (143rd)
Dixie Walker (145th)
Rocky Colavito (146th)
Joe Torre (146th)
Ken Singleton (148th)
Fred McGriff (152nd)
Lefty O'Doul (152nd)
Fred Lynn (154th)
Roger Maris (154th)
Mort Cooper (158th)
Sal Bando (160th)
Cecil Cooper (162nd)
Ted Kluszewski (164th)
Jake Daubert (167th)
Denny McLain (167th)
Joe Carter (170th)
Hughie Critz (171st)
Bill Freehan (171st)
Paul Derringer (175th)
Al Oliver (176th)
Dan Quisenberry (176th)
Bobby Bonilla (180th)
Dolph Camilli (180th)
Bill Nicholson (180th)
Al Rosen (180th)
Ron Santo (180th)
Lon Warneke (180th)
Alan Trammell (186th)
Bob Elliott (188th)
Kevin Mitchell (188th)
George Burns (197th)
Larry Doyle (197th)
Wes Ferrell (197th)
Sal Maglie (200th)
...the list reads like a who's-who of near HOF players since 1960, many of which have been endorsed for Cooperstown by our board. Every one of the non-eligible players has a HOF case as well, though some are quite young. Mattingly and Clark however look in better company than McGriff. There are a lot of people up top with significant 1B time too. So I may have shot down my own argument.
http://members.cox.net/~harlowk22/atgwsobj.html
Rank James Name
001 195.6 Babe Ruth
002 179.0 Honus Wagner
003 178.4 Mickey Mantle
004 176.0 Barry Bonds
005 175.8 Ted Williams
006 173.6 Ty Cobb
007 168.7 Tris Speaker
008 164.6 Willie Mays
009 162.0 Stan Musial
010 160.9 Lou Gehrig
011 160.3 Rogers Hornsby
012 158.3 Joe Morgan
013 157.0 Eddie Collins
014 156.6 Hank Aaron
015 155.3 John Ward
016 150.9 Joe DiMaggio
017 150.6 Nap Lajoie
018 150.6 Mike Schmidt
019 148.7 Frank Robinson
020 148.2 Mel Ott
021 147.4 Dick Allen
022 146.2 Eddie Mathews
023 145.8 Jimmie Foxx
024 145.1 Rickey Henderson
025 143.8 Will Clark
026 143.1 Arky Vaughan
027 143.0 Jeff Bagwell
028 142.7 Carl Yastrzemski
029 141.4 Frank Thomas
030 140.0 Duke Snider
031 139.7 Craig Biggio
032 139.5 Pete Rose
033 139.4 Joe Jackson
034 139.3 Wade Boggs
035 139.2 Mike Piazza
036 139.1 Frank Baker
037 139.0 George Brett
038 138.8 Willie McCovey
039 138.0 Ryne Sandberg
040 137.9 Tim Raines
041 137.8 Mark McGwire
042 136.8 Johnny Bench
043 136.7 Alex Rodriguez
044 136.7 Reggie Jackson
045 135.8 Jackie Robinson
046 135.2 Sam Crawford
047 135.0 Robin Yount
048 134.9 Tony Gwynn
049 134.8 Ed Delahanty
050 134.8 Cal Ripken Jr.
051 134.4 Rod Carew
052 134.3 Yogi Berra
053 133.5 Ken Griffey Jr.
054 133.5 Gary Sheffield
055 133.4 Paul Waner
056 133.3 Charlie Gehringer
057 133.2 Johnny Mize
058 132.9 Al Simmons
059 132.8 Ron Santo
060 132.6 Billy Hamilton
061 132.6 Harmon Killebrew
062 132.2 Willie Stargell
063 132.1 Joe Medwick
064 131.9 Roberto Alomar
065 131.5 Jesse Burkett
066 130.9 Eddie Murray
067 130.7 Frank Howard
068 130.6 Elmer Smith
069 130.4 Sherry Magee
070 130.2 Sammy Sosa
071 130.0 Elmer Flick
072 129.8 Ken Singleton
073 129.5 Bobby Bonds
074 129.2 Larry Doby
075 129.1 Bobby Grich
076 129.1 Roberto Clemente
077 129.0 Joe Cronin
078 128.9 Jimmy Wynn
079 128.7 Harry Heilmann
080 128.7 Charlie Keller
081 128.6 Dave Parker
082 128.5 Billy Williams
083 128.5 Dan Brouthers
084 128.4 Ralph Kiner
085 127.9 Paul Molitor
086 127.8 Albert Belle
087 127.7 Wally Berger
088 127.6 Hank Greenberg
089 127.5 Barry Larkin
090 127.4 Gary Carter
091 127.3 Al Kaline
092 127.3 Bobby Murcer
093 127.2 Al Rosen
094 126.9 Luke Appling
095 126.8 Dale Murphy
096 126.5 Don Mattingly
097 126.4 Roger Connor
098 126.1 Stan Hack
099 126.0 Dave Winfield
100 126.0 Kirby Puckett
Seasons leading the league in traditional triple crown stats,
Jim Rice 5, Will Clark 1
Seasons leading in Hits, BB, Runs, Slg %, OPS, OPS +, or Total bases
Jim Rice 9, Will Clark 4
Seasons with 200 or more base hits,
Jim Rice 4, Will Clark 0
Seasons winning the league's MVP,
Jim Rice 1, Will Clark 0
Do the substantial times more, being best among your peers, mean one was the better ballplayer ? Not always.
Do those league leading seasons create an impression of baseball "fame" ? Apparently yes.
Clark has better numbers than Rice in almost every other stat besides those. Rice had an enormous advantage playing at Fenway for his home games. As I already said, look at the difference in OPS between Fenway and everywhere else. Rice was an above-average player whose stats were incredibly inflated due to the fact that he played at a notorious hitter's park. Clark played the majority of his home games at Candlestick, a pitcher's park.
Except in batting average, OBP, SLG, OPS, OPS+, adj. batting runs, adj. batting wins, OWP, and win shares.
Williams won four Gold Gloves while not playing that great of defense. He won four straight Gold Gloves while being 14 fielding runs below average. He won the Gold Glove in 1997 despite the -15 FRAA. He had a weak arm, posted only one season with double digits in assists.
Edmonds has more home runs, therefore a better SLG. But Clark still betters him in batting average, OBP, OPS+, total bases, runs created, adj. batting runs, adj. batting wins, OWP, and win shares.
Edmonds was, of course, a great fielder.
Well, neither are eligible, for one. Hell, Edmonds isn't even officially retired yet, to the best of my knowledge.
Edmonds was a good power hitter and a decent on-base guy, in addition to being a great fielder. Bernie Williams was a good slap hitter who showed power sometimes and had good speed, but was always overrated defensively and really wasn't that great. Clark was great defensively and great offensively. He's clearly a better overall player than the two players that you mentioned.
#$!&@* the heck?!?
I wouldn't call Clark great defensively. He had some good hands and could pick it, but his range was never particularly good... I also think Edmonds is a very over rated defensive player as well, but thats another story... And Bernie Williams was more than just a 'slap hitter'.
His range factor was WELL above average. His career RF/9 is near 10, while the league average was right around eight. In terms of range factor, he's not far off from Keith Hernandez.
I completely disagree.
Edmonds was nearly 100 fielding runs above average. While he was no Willie Mays, he was well above average and was probably the best defensive center fielder of his time.
Once again, I disagree. He's similar to Derek Jeter as a hitter, minus the big difference in batting average.
#$!&@* the heck?!?
There's no crying at BBF!
The reason that Rice is in the HoF and Clark is simple. HoF voters like "shiny things" like MVPs, HRs, RBI, All-Star appearances, and labels like "the most feared hitter". Rice offers lots of these shiny things and Clark doesn't. These shiny things don't make Rice a better player than Clark of course but the voters don't look at saber stats at all. In 1989 Clark had an MVP type season. As a Giants fan I think he was better than Kevin Mitchell that season. But Mitchell had shiny things like HRs and RBI. From 1987-89 Clark was brilliant, averaging .308/.389/.544, 163 OPS+, 30 HR, 34 doubles,107 RBI, 102 R, 77 BB, 114 K per 162 games.
Clark was just 25 years old in 1989. I thought for sure that 1989 was going to be the beginning of a 7-8 year HoF peak run for Clark. But it never happened. His elbow started bothering him and it sapped all of his power. He never came close to matching his brilliant 1989 again. He did have very good seasons in 1991-92. but then he got buried and forgotten because of Bagwell, Thomas, Palmeiro, McGwire, etc in the mid 1990's. And I think that is what has hurt Clark's legacy, this perception of mild disappointment and what Clark could have done if he were healthy.
Last edited by Honus Wagner Rules; 11-02-2009 at 02:06 PM.
Strikeouts are boring! Besides that, they're fascist. Throw some ground balls - it's more democratic.-Crash Davis
http://sfgiants-forum.com/forum/index.php
Clark was coming off a monster playoff and the WS in 89 he had everything aligned for a HOF run. As I recall he had a pretty good big game reputation and was considered one of the best players in the game.
Moderator/Systems Analyst
I remember Clark breaking his leg at some point, in a close play at home. Do i remember that correctly? That seemed to be the high water mark of Clark's career, he never got back to where he once was.
RIP Tom Tresh. Detroiter. Chippewa. Yankee. Good man.
RIP George Kell. Batting Champ. Champ Broadcaster. HOFer. Good man.
RIP Mark Fidrych. The first player I actively followed.
Pigskin Fever, though, lives. http://www.pigskin-fever.com/ Come help make it as good as its sister site.
Any hitter who hit their peak in the years 1988-92 is likely to be under-regarded by the HOF voters. There just weren't that many "impressive seasons" compared to surrounding years.
Top 15 seasons in RC, 1983-87, 25+ HR, 100+ RBI
Top 15 seasons in RC, 1988-92, 25+ HR, 100+ RBICode:Cnt Player RC BA HR RBI OPS+ PA Year Age +----+-----------------+---+-----+--+---+----+---+----+---+ 1 Don Mattingly 150 .352 31 113 161 742 1986 25 2 George Brett 146 .335 30 112 178 665 1985 32 3 Dale Murphy 143 .295 44 105 157 693 1987 31 4 Alan Trammell 137 .343 28 105 155 668 1987 29 5 Don Mattingly 136 .324 35 145 156 727 1985 24 6 Dwight Evans 134 .305 34 123 156 657 1987 35 7 Darryl Strawberry 132 .284 39 104 162 640 1987 25 8 Dwight Evans 132 .295 32 104 147 738 1984 32 9 Mark McGwire 131 .289 49 118 164 641 1987 23 10 Dale Murphy 131 .300 37 111 152 712 1985 29 11 Dale Murphy 131 .302 36 121 149 687 1983 27 12 Eddie Murray 130 .306 29 110 156 705 1984 28 13 Jack Clark 127 .286 35 106 176 558 1987 31 14 Eddie Murray 127 .306 33 111 156 680 1983 27 15 George Bell 125 .308 47 134 146 665 1987 27
Top 15 seasons in RC, 1996-2000, 25+ HR, 100+ RBICode:Cnt Player RC BA HR RBI OPS+ PA Year Age +----+-----------------+---+-----+--+---+----+---+----+---+ 1 Barry Bonds 148 .311 34 103 205 612 1992 27 2 Frank Thomas 145 .318 32 109 180 700 1991 23 3 Kevin Mitchell 136 .291 47 125 192 640 1989 27 4 Jose Canseco 136 .307 42 124 170 705 1988 23 5 Cal Ripken 134 .323 34 114 162 717 1991 30 6 Cecil Fielder 129 .277 51 132 167 673 1990 26 7 Barry Bonds 128 .301 33 114 170 621 1990 25 8 Howard Johnson 127 .287 36 101 169 655 1989 28 9 Ryne Sandberg 124 .306 40 100 140 675 1990 30 10 Ruben Sierra 122 .306 29 119 146 689 1989 23 11 Will Clark 120 .282 29 109 160 689 1988 24 12 Gary Sheffield 118 .330 33 100 170 618 1992 23 13 Barry Bonds 118 .292 25 116 160 634 1991 26 14 Ruben Sierra 117 .307 25 116 138 726 1991 25 15 Jose Canseco 116 .266 44 122 157 665 1991 26
Code:Cnt Player RC BA HR RBI OPS+ PA Year Age +----+-----------------+---+-----+--+---+----+---+----+---+ 1 Mark McGwire 193 .299 70 147 216 681 1998 34 2 Todd Helton 192 .372 42 147 163 697 2000 26 3 Larry Walker 187 .366 49 130 178 664 1997 30 4 Carlos Delgado 186 .344 41 137 181 711 2000 28 5 Jason Giambi 172 .333 43 137 187 664 2000 29 6 Chipper Jones 165 .319 45 110 168 701 1999 27 7 Frank Thomas 163 .328 43 143 163 707 2000 32 8 Barry Bonds 162 .308 42 129 188 675 1996 31 9 Jeff Bagwell 161 .304 42 126 162 729 1999 31 10 Mark McGwire 160 .278 65 147 177 661 1999 35 11 Gary Sheffield 159 .314 42 120 189 677 1996 27 12 Manny Ramirez 158 .333 44 165 173 640 1999 27 13 Albert Belle 158 .328 49 152 171 706 1998 31 14 Mo Vaughn 158 .326 44 143 150 752 1996 28 15 Ellis Burks 158 .344 40 128 149 685 1996 31
Eradicate, wipe out and abolish redundancy.
Well, first, Santo is on the list, tied for 180th place all time (1.23 shares).
Second, my list is MVP shares, not win shares, and is different from your list.
Third, Allen was hurt by three things:
- he played for some pretty bad teams (and some good ones)
- his career was a little on short side
- the press didn't like him
Lastly, Parker has nine top 20 finishes in MVP voting, including five top 5 finishes and the award in 1978.
"The cavalry is coming. There are guys on the way and they're going to get here quickly." ~Dave Trembley
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