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Reply With QuoteConsidering that the Yankees nearly came back against the Phillie bullpen, do you really want them pitching 4 innings instead of 2?Originally Posted by BiZmaRK
Registered User
Why is Charlie Manuel leaving Cliff Lee in for such a high pitch count? I'm thinking if Manuel took him out after perhaps 80 pitches in game 1, Lee would have been able to pitch game 4 effectively. Now that Lee went some 115 pitches last night, it jeopardizes his effectiveness for game 7 should the series go 7 games.
An individual statistic is meaningful only if it is based strictly on what the player does and not on what the other players on his team do.
Considering that the Yankees nearly came back against the Phillie bullpen, do you really want them pitching 4 innings instead of 2?
Bleeding Cardinal Red since 1985
In the stands for every home playoff game since then -- 2006 was well worth the wait!
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Registered User
Well, at least you have a chance to pitch Cliff Lee in game 7 if they can get that far. All it would take is for one of their other pitchers to do well enough for them to win one of four.
That leaves a choice:
1) Cliff Lee for 21 innings over three starts and bullpen for 6 innings
2) Cliff Lee for 18 innings over two starts, another starter for 7 innings and bullpen for 2 innings.
Take your pick.
An individual statistic is meaningful only if it is based strictly on what the player does and not on what the other players on his team do.
Yeah, Lee wasnt going to go any less than 7 innings last nite. If his pitch count had been down a little more, he would have pitched the 8th and maybe the 9th. The Phils pen had their shot and didnt come thru.
G Man
Actually, that's not true at all. First of all, had Lee been pulled after 80 pitches as you suggested, he never would have made it 7 innings. So, you are being far too kind there.
By working backwards, Cliff Lee would have topped out at 80 pitches with 1 out in the 6th inning of Game 1.
Last night he would have hit the 80 pitch mark after 6 innings exactly.
So, basically, we're going to get 6 innings out of him for 80 pitches. On top of that, even another possibility exists.
C) Use your best starter for 12 innings and Game 7 doesn't matter because you lost Game 5.
If I'm a manager, especially facing elimination, I take nothing for granted. I would have left Lee in until his arm fell off if I had to.
Bleeding Cardinal Red since 1985
In the stands for every home playoff game since then -- 2006 was well worth the wait!
Goal Line Blitz - Create a football player, sign contracts, train and more!
Manuel can not take a chance with the Phillie pen. If a starter is doing okay he stays in.
Buck O'Neil: The Monarch of Baseball
When your 3-1 down in the World Series you play every game like its game 7. You cant afford to take out your number 1 pitcher in the hope your bullpen holds out and you win the following game to force a 7th. If he had pulled Lee and the bullpen lost them the game it would be seen as a very stupid move.
Lee was never going to pitch game 7. on two days rest.
Charlie Manuel already blundered by not going with Lee in game 4. It don't really matter how many pitches he threw last night since he can't start game 7.
You can say you would have done differently, but why is everyone second guessing Charlie Manuel for not making Cliff Lee do something he had never done before in his career? Especially after:
A) Blanton was decent
B) Lee wasn't great last night
I think Charlie did what he believed gave his team the best shot to win the series. And I agree with him.
I think they'd have had a much better chance if he'd gone with Lee in game 4, and I said so before game 4. I didn't second guess, I first guessed and I still say he was dead wrong.
Lee
Pedro
Hamels
Lee
Blanton
Pedro
Lee
vs
Lee
Pedro
Hamels
Blanton
Lee
Pedro
Hamels
So Lee 2x on short rest or Lee on regular rest once and Hamles once. That's what it came down to for Mauel. Actually it was Pedro instead of Hamels for his decision.
I reiterate, I would have gone with Lee in games 1, 4 and 7. I think he made a mistake not doing so, especially considering how poorly Cole Hamels has pitched this post-season.
I wonder if Manual did not start Lee because he'd be facing CC in game 4? I remember the Dodgers pitching Randy Wolf in game 4 instead of game 3 because he was going against Lee if he had pitched in game 3. Kuroda pitched in game 3. Torre probably had a good feeling that Lee would dominate so why waste Wolf who could keep you in the game but likely give up a few runs.
If Lee pitches against CC there is a good chance a good start by him could have been ruined simply because CC was on the mound. When a more likely win could have came in game 5 against Burnette.
Of course I still think it would have been good to pitch him in game 4 so that he's have enough rest to possibly start game 7.
