Whip, Swivel, Early Bat Speed, Torque, and Such

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  • Chris O'Leary
    Student of the game.
    • Apr 2006
    • 9783

    Whip, Swivel, Early Bat Speed, Torque, and Such

    I'm going to weigh in on the whole issue of whip, swivel, early bat speed, and torque -- but in a different thread -- because it's something I'm currently thinking about and interested in.

    Here's a 60 FPS clip of mine that I think has a lot to say about the subject...



    I don't see ANY evidence for early bat speed in this clip (which is of a perfectly timed swing on an 85 MPH FB down the middle). If you look at the angle of the front forearm and the barrel of the bat, it is CONSTANT from Frame 1 through Frame 8 and is probably around 80 degrees. That's inarguable (or should be). Only in Frame 9 does this angle start to open up to maybe 100 degrees. The angle has clearly opened up to 135 degrees or so in Frame 10, but IMO that ain't early. This isn't religion, and I have no inclination to believe in something, like early bat speed, for which there is no visual evidence.

    I would argue that the opening up of the angle between the front forearm and the barrel of the bat, and the swiveling you see, is due more to momentum transfer and whip than to active muscular action in the wrists. It's very easy to argue that active muscular action in the wrists is more likely to hurt this whip effect than it is to help it.

    P.S. While I'm going to read what everyone says, I'm probably not going to do much replying out of the interests of thread explosion and disk space.
    Obsessed with Pitching Mechanics.
  • RKKay
    Registered User
    • Oct 2009
    • 109

    #2
    I agree with you 100%. I think, if you look at any good powerful swing, the hips are nearly fully opened before the arms fully come into play, and I believe the wrist roll is more a result of the follow-through and natural completion of the swing rather than a voluntary muscular movement in the wrists. I also agree that the bad speed is not there early on in a good swing, but rather is the culmination of the hips flying the subsequent throwing of the bat head.

    Comment

    • The Choreographer
      Registered User
      • May 2009
      • 23

      #3
      What frame would be early? How much force is required to overcome the inertia of the bat head that is actually moving towards the pitcher in a typical Pujols swing. I believe you cut those frames off.



      If force is not being applied, then why does it change direction? Would it not take some time for the force to overcome and change the direction of the bathead which is why you see a delay in the increase in angle? Could it not be that from frame 1-8 the force is being applied and at frame 9 it finally overcomes?

      Post the overhead of Pete Rose. I think the angles are easier to see.

      Comment

      • HYP
        Registered User
        • Dec 2008
        • 2820

        #4
        Originally posted by Chris O'Leary View Post
        I'm going to weigh in on the whole issue of whip, swivel, early bat speed, and torque -- but in a different thread -- because it's something I'm currently thinking about and interested in.

        Here's a 60 FPS clip of mine that I think has a lot to say about the subject...



        I don't see ANY evidence for early bat speed in this clip (which is of a perfectly timed swing on an 85 MPH FB down the middle). If you look at the angle of the front forearm and the barrel of the bat, it is CONSTANT from Frame 1 through Frame 8 and is probably around 80 degrees. That's inarguable (or should be). Only in Frame 9 does this angle start to open up to maybe 100 degrees. The angle has clearly opened up to 135 degrees or so in Frame 10, but IMO that ain't early. This isn't religion, and I have no inclination to believe in something, like early bat speed, for which there is no visual evidence.

        I would argue that the opening up of the angle between the front forearm and the barrel of the bat, and the swiveling you see, is due more to momentum transfer and whip than to active muscular action in the wrists. It's very easy to argue that active muscular action in the wrists is more likely to hurt this whip effect than it is to help it.

        P.S. While I'm going to read what everyone says, I'm probably not going to do much replying out of the interests of thread explosion and disk space.
        At around frame 10 which you say the angle increases. If the wrists and forearms are not swiveling to power the bat to the ball then what is?

        I just recognized your P.S. Don't start a thread make a statement and then run away. That is kind of Chicken excriment.
        Last edited by HYP; 11-03-2009, 05:19 PM.

        Comment

        • FiveFrameSwing
          Registered User
          • Jun 2006
          • 6031

          #5
          Rose was interesting.

          He didn't lead back with his elbow in a highly significant way.

          Comment

          • FiveFrameSwing
            Registered User
            • Jun 2006
            • 6031

            #6
            Here's Rose starting with the first frame as he shifted into heel plant.

            Comment

            • 4for4
              Registered User
              • Feb 2006
              • 859

              #7
              To carry over some comments I made from another thread on this topic:

              Originally posted by 4for4 View Post
              There has been no supination (twisting or swiveling) of the forearm at that point in the video. That comes later. You can see this again because the hand to forearm relationship hasn't changed. The orientation of the forearm to the sky changes because of what the arms (working together as a unit) and shoulders are doing.
              This video is a very good one to illustrate the fallacy of THT/forearm swiveling/supination/launch and spend/early batspeed. Its conclusive IME.

              Take note of the lines scribed by the rear hand and the shoulders and how they move.



              There is no supination/swiveling until at the earliest, frame nine.

              Comment

              • FiveFrameSwing
                Registered User
                • Jun 2006
                • 6031

                #8
                Molitar was another variation of this.

                Comment

                • FiveFrameSwing
                  Registered User
                  • Jun 2006
                  • 6031

                  #9
                  Originally posted by The Choreographer View Post
                  What frame would be early? How much force is required to overcome the inertia of the bat head that is actually moving towards the pitcher in a typical Pujols swing. I believe you cut those frames off.



                  If force is not being applied, then why does it change direction? Would it not take some time for the force to overcome and change the direction of the bathead which is why you see a delay in the increase in angle? Could it not be that from frame 1-8 the force is being applied and at frame 9 it finally overcomes?

                  Post the overhead of Pete Rose. I think the angles are easier to see.


                  With Pujols I don't see a significant amount of rear forearm supination until after he weights his front foot. IMO you see supination between the following two frames.

                  Comment

                  • The Choreographer
                    Registered User
                    • May 2009
                    • 23

                    #10
                    Originally posted by FiveFrameSwing View Post
                    With Pujols I don't see a significant amount of rear forearm supination until after he weights his front foot. IMO you see supination between the following two frames.

                    This doesn't address the questions asked. An object in motion tends to stay in motion unless a force acts upon it. The simplified questions are, where is the force coming from and how much force is required?
                    Last edited by The Choreographer; 11-03-2009, 05:45 PM.

                    Comment

                    • FiveFrameSwing
                      Registered User
                      • Jun 2006
                      • 6031

                      #11
                      Originally posted by The Choreographer View Post
                      This doesn't address the questions asked.
                      You're right, it doesn't.

                      In CO's OP he concluded with "While I'm going to read what everyone says, I'm probably not going to do much replying out of the interests of thread explosion and disk space."

                      I think that was his way of saying that he wasn't prepared to field questions.
                      Last edited by FiveFrameSwing; 11-03-2009, 05:43 PM.

                      Comment

                      • The Choreographer
                        Registered User
                        • May 2009
                        • 23

                        #12
                        Originally posted by FiveFrameSwing View Post
                        You're right, it doesn't.

                        In CO's OP he concluded with "While I'm going to read what everyone says, I'm probably not going to do much replying out of the interests of thread explosion and disk space."

                        I think that was his way of saying that he wasn't prepared to field questions.
                        Probably not, but I'm sure others will, as they already have. Maybe they're prepared.

                        Comment

                        • FiveFrameSwing
                          Registered User
                          • Jun 2006
                          • 6031

                          #13
                          I suspect you are correct. Should be an interesting evening.

                          CO has conveniently stepped aside out of interests of thread explosion and disk space. That actually got me to chuckle.

                          Comment

                          • Jake Patterson
                            Coaching 101 Moderator
                            • Oct 2005
                            • 14033

                            #14
                            Originally posted by FiveFrameSwing View Post
                            I suspect you are correct. Should be an interesting evening.

                            CO has conveniently stepped aside out of interests of thread explosion and disk space. That actually got me to chuckle.
                            What is wrong with putting forward an idea in order to seek discussion? He clearly states it is something in which he's interested.
                            "He who dares to teach, must never cease to learn."
                            - John Cotton Dana (1856–1929) - Offered to many by L. Olson - Iowa (Teacher)
                            Please read Baseball Fever Policy and Forum FAQ before posting.

                            Comment

                            • 4for4
                              Registered User
                              • Feb 2006
                              • 859

                              #15
                              Originally posted by The Choreographer View Post
                              What frame would be early? How much force is required to overcome the inertia of the bat head that is actually moving towards the pitcher in a typical Pujols swing. I believe you cut those frames off.



                              If force is not being applied, then why does it change direction? Would it not take some time for the force to overcome and change the direction of the bathead which is why you see a delay in the increase in angle? Could it not be that from frame 1-8 the force is being applied and at frame 9 it finally overcomes?
                              What kind of force, where, how, what direction?

                              Comment

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