Whip, Swivel, Early Bat Speed, Torque, and Such

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  • HYP
    Registered User
    • Dec 2008
    • 2820

    Originally posted by collegeStar View Post
    Then you have no idea what hand/forearm supination is....
    See I think what is happening here is you think that we have been saying get hands completly flat before anything else happens. It is all blended together.

    Comment

    • collegeStar
      Registered User
      • Jun 2006
      • 224

      Originally posted by FiveFrameSwing View Post
      IMO, xx promotes a swing that makes ideal contact deep in the zone, while Yeager promotes a swing that makes contact further out towards the pitcher. From that perspective, yes they are opposites.
      I have numerous DVDs and students that train with Dr. Yeager and I have NEVER heard him promote "a swing that makes contact further out towards the pitcher."

      Have you?

      In fact it is the opposite--one of the reasons he promotes Shoulder/arm deceleration is to "funnel energy to the bat "deeper in the swing".
      Last edited by Cannonball; 11-04-2009, 11:38 AM.

      Comment

      • FiveFrameSwing
        Registered User
        • Jun 2006
        • 6031

        Originally posted by HYP View Post
        Azmatsfan,

        Try something for me. Grab a bat, not a light wiffle ball bat, but a bat. Now lay the bat in your neck slot, slightly angled toward the pitcher but comfortable. Grab the bat in your top hand only. Raise your rear elbow, so that your upper arm is parralel with your shoulders.

        Now supinate your forearm but do not let your elbow move. Can you do it? Yes you can because you are keeping your elbow up.

        Now from the same position. Relax the elbow a little and do the same thing. Does your elbow go down? It should.

        Now do the same thing while the rear shoulder is coming down (tilt the shoulders). Does the shaft of the bat stay close to the rear deltoid? It should.

        Now get in the same position and focus on tilting the shoulders hard and driving the rear elbow down. No focus on the hands. What happens? The bat will come down and will go out but can you feel the pressure on the wrist and forearm? Can you feel how your hands/forearms feel left behind?

        I will definetly try to get video of my demonstration up today. So you can see what I am describing.
        As an FYI ... you are permitted to show the clip demonstrating this ... you just can't reference the place you copied the video clip from.

        Comment

        • ssarge
          Registered User
          • Feb 2006
          • 1053

          The perceived 'strength' in this guys forearms ... especially his rear forearm ... looks impressive.

          Something that has always impressed me about these MLB players is the strength of their forearms. When you shake their hands, you definitely know it.
          Chris:

          For sure, they're strong guys, and that isn't perception, it's reality.


          For a while, I was involved with some guys who were world class arm wrestlers. The heavyweights - guys like John Brzenk who was the best in the world for years - are incredibly strong. Almost beyond human comprehension. Some of the lighter guys are even more amazing. I once saw a 150lb guy named Dave Patton squeeze a can of Campbells Tomato Soup until the seals popped. Some of these guys have 18 - 19" FOREARMS - at least the right one.


          But aren't pro hitters strong everywhere? If the forearms were disproportionally strong, it would make a better case for that being a factor in hitting power (and I'm not even sure that's the point you are making, though I know that some make it). At least it would be more persuasive to me.


          I don't doubt the benefits of strength for a hitter. I've seen first hand what it has done for college hitters - including my daughter - who begin serious weight training with their college teams. Far more advanced that what she did at high school or at the health club. And I think xxxx will see the benefits of that at xxx next year, as I know a couple players on that team (same conference as my daughter) and have been told they also have extensive weight training.


          My question is whether it is reasonable to believe that enhanced strength specifically in the forearms would matter much. It seems to me that as strength applies to hitting, it is a full-body experience.

          Regards,

          Scott
          Last edited by Cannonball; 11-04-2009, 12:35 PM.

          Comment

          • FiveFrameSwing
            Registered User
            • Jun 2006
            • 6031

            Originally posted by collegeStar View Post
            My JUCO hitters that have trained with Yeager have much more leverage "behind the ball" than my "spinners".

            Yeager is very clear in that the "centre of mass" should not drift after the front heel "blocks"..ie that weight shift stops at block...

            as far as hands getting out front I have found Yeager to be one of the strongest advocates of keeping them back--as a matter of fact he hates the fence drill and does not want the lead arm getting out front or away from body...and wants hands firing well behind front foot with firing behind front knee being a goal to try for...I don't know what students you have seen, but Yeager is most certainly not a hands out front advocate...
            I agree with most of what you say here.

            No one is promoting spinners .... well, maybe Dixon is, based on his recent DVD.

            No one is recommending drifting forward after the front heel blocks.

            As for the lead-arm action ... well yes again.

            Now ... go back to his DVDs and look at the vertical posture lines he recommends ... in terms of a line drawn from the belly button up through the neck. He claims that this should remain perfectly vertical thoughout ... not a slant or change in slant as you'll see in MLB hitters. This has him advocating a balanced shift, as opposed to a 'reach' (ala RudyJ). This thus puts a premium on timing. The result is, that IMO, that many of his hitters 'shift' too soon ... and hence the complaint by many that "shift THEN swing" is wrong.

            Often you'll see his hitter striding balanced and "falling" to front foot strike. That of course is not what he recommends.

            IMO, Yeager has some great information. As with anything ... you need to apply filters.

            Comment

            • FiveFrameSwing
              Registered User
              • Jun 2006
              • 6031

              Originally posted by collegeStar View Post
              Then you have no idea what hand/forearm supination is....
              Okay ... there's no reason to be rude ... at least not yet.

              Pretend you are hitting a ball high up in the zone. Maybe pull out a tee and place setup for a high pitch. Now have an objective getting to the Power-V position with a vertical forearm. Freeze in this position. From this position, rotate your forearm ... supinate it, pronate it, supinate it, pronate it ... back and forth. Notice that the palm does not go skyward during this rotation.

              Have a goal of obtaining a vertical forearm ... it will pay off dividends in terms of performance. Yeager's cue for realizing this was having the rear hand go "down through the nipple". Not the best of cues ... but when he demonstrated it to me it appeared identical to the Power-V position.

              I do understand where you are coming from ... and I understand that the objective was to prevent bat drag ... and from that perspective it was a good thing ... absolutely the top hand should not be pointing skyward at the Power-V position.

              Comment

              • HYP
                Registered User
                • Dec 2008
                • 2820

                Originally posted by ssarge View Post
                Chris:

                For sure, they're strong guys, and that isn't perception, it's reality.


                For a while, I was involved with some guys who were world class arm wrestlers. The heavyweights - guys like John Brzenk who was the best in the world for years - are incredibly strong. Almost beyond human comprehension. Some of the lighter guys are even more amazing. I once saw a 150lb guy named Dave Patton squeeze a can of Campbells Tomato Soup until the seals popped. Some of these guys have 18 - 19" FOREARMS - at least the right one.


                But aren't pro hitters strong everywhere? If the forearms were disproportionally strong, it would make a better case for that being a factor in hitting power (and I'm not even sure that's the point you are making, though I know that some make it). At least it would be more persuasive to me.


                I don't doubt the benefits of strength for a hitter. I've seen first hand what it has done for college hitters - including my daughter - who begin serious weight training with their college teams. Far more advanced that what she did at high school or at the health club. And I think xxxx will see the benefits of that at xxx next year, as I know a couple players on that team (same conference as my daughter) and have been told they also have extensive weight training.


                My question is whether it is reasonable to believe that enhanced strength specifically in the forearms would matter much. It seems to me that as strength applies to hitting, it is a full-body experience.

                Regards,

                Scott
                Ssarge,

                I don't think that was the point being made. At least not the one I was making with regards to the forearm being engaged prior to anything visually happening.

                I agree Hitters are strong everywhere. In fact I will say that the rest of the body is probably much stronger then the hands/wrists/forearms. That is why the hands/forearms have to be active early. They are the weakest link. If you do not get them active early they will be over powered.

                I know we have all used the description of a whip and I know a whips weakest link( so to speak) is at the end. I know peple will use this analogy. See I don't by into that analogy. Let me tell you why.

                A whip doesnt have a 30oz weight strapped to the end of it. Your hands do. So they must get involved, early, in getting the barrel moving.
                Last edited by Cannonball; 11-04-2009, 12:36 PM.

                Comment

                • FiveFrameSwing
                  Registered User
                  • Jun 2006
                  • 6031

                  Originally posted by HYP View Post
                  Not to speak for FFS but I think he is refering to contact out front. A late throw, which creates contact out front.
                  Yes ... that was what I was speaking of.

                  Comment

                  • FiveFrameSwing
                    Registered User
                    • Jun 2006
                    • 6031

                    Originally posted by HYP View Post
                    See I think what is happening here is you think that we have been saying get hands completly flat before anything else happens. It is all blended together.
                    It is absolutely blended together. The forearm/top-hand supinates towards contact. Like any other body segment ... it will go through a period of acceleration and deceleration.

                    Comment

                    • collegeStar
                      Registered User
                      • Jun 2006
                      • 224

                      in terms of a line drawn from the belly button up through the neck. He claims that this should remain perfectly vertical thoughout
                      from what I remember he wants a "neutral spine" during the shift and recommends that tilt happens as the heel drops....

                      One cue he uses to promote tilt with my hitters is that the front knee stay behinds the front foot and that the front shoulder stays behind (and NOT AROUND) the front knee..

                      Comment

                      • azmatsfan
                        Baseball Dad
                        • Apr 2008
                        • 2158

                        Originally posted by FiveFrameSwing View Post
                        Almost.

                        Yes ... the same muscles ... but the 'force' is opposite that of 'pronation' ... and it is therefore refered to as 'supination'.

                        Think of 'pronation' as the rear forearm action when your rear forearm/hand rolls over after 'contact' as your barrel goes towards 'extension'. That turning of your rear forearm is 'pronation'.

                        Starting from the launch, your rear forearm will rotate in the opposite direction (supinate) ... when you reach the palm-up/palm-down position you rear forearm will be transistioning between supination and pronation ... this is what causes the 'extension' of the palm-up position ... it is not a 'forced' or 'pushed' "palm-up extension" ... the 'extension' of the 'palm-up' position occurs because the rear forearm is transitioning from supination to pronation.

                        Obviously I meant supination. And I'm not sure you answered my question. Is it possible you are saying that although the forearm does not supinate as is evidenced on the video, that what you're feeling is the same muscles working that cause supination? In other words those muscles are working but the forearm doesn't supinate due to the tilt and elbow slotting.

                        Comment

                        • FiveFrameSwing
                          Registered User
                          • Jun 2006
                          • 6031

                          Originally posted by collegeStar View Post
                          I have numerous DVDs and students that train with Dr. Yeager and I have NEVER heard him promote "a swing that makes contact further out towards the pitcher."

                          Have you?

                          In fact it is the opposite--one of the reasons he promotes Shoulder/arm deceleration is to "funnel energy to the bat "deeper in the swing".
                          I probably have 20 of his DVDs.

                          He's been very good to me.

                          IMO, you are correct, he does not intentionally promote a swing that is out front. I agree with you completely. However, he does a few things that unfortunately produce this ... and IMO, you need to use the Hanson Principle to weed out those recommendations.

                          One of those recommendations is the vertical posture that he recommends throughout the stride. This is not supported by the Hanson Principle and it leads to a swing that will be too far out front.

                          As another example ... slapping the ball in the face is not, IMO, a great cue. This cue, if listened to, doesn't put you in a palm-up position.

                          Please don't get me wrong. A ton of Yeager's information is ***GREAT***. There are just a few things, that IMO, should be filtered out.
                          Last edited by Jake Patterson; 11-04-2009, 12:07 PM.

                          Comment

                          • FiveFrameSwing
                            Registered User
                            • Jun 2006
                            • 6031

                            Originally posted by ssarge View Post
                            Chris:

                            For sure, they're strong guys, and that isn't perception, it's reality.


                            For a while, I was involved with some guys who were world class arm wrestlers. The heavyweights - guys like John Brzenk who was the best in the world for years - are incredibly strong. Almost beyond human comprehension. Some of the lighter guys are even more amazing. I once saw a 150lb guy named Dave Patton squeeze a can of Campbells Tomato Soup until the seals popped. Some of these guys have 18 - 19" FOREARMS - at least the right one.


                            But aren't pro hitters strong everywhere? If the forearms were disproportionally strong, it would make a better case for that being a factor in hitting power (and I'm not even sure that's the point you are making, though I know that some make it). At least it would be more persuasive to me.


                            I don't doubt the benefits of strength for a hitter. I've seen first hand what it has done for college hitters - including my daughter - who begin serious weight training with their college teams. Far more advanced that what she did at high school or at the health club. And I think Meghan will see the benefits of that at PSU next year, as I know a couple players on that team (same conference as my daughter) and have been told they also have extensive weight training.


                            My question is whether it is reasonable to believe that enhanced strength specifically in the forearms would matter much. It seems to me that as strength applies to hitting, it is a full-body experience.

                            Regards,

                            Scott
                            The weight training at these D1 schools is pretty intense. Some of the girls had absolutely no idea what was in front of them.

                            Hopefully we can hook up and watch a game or two in the near future.

                            Comment

                            • FiveFrameSwing
                              Registered User
                              • Jun 2006
                              • 6031

                              Originally posted by HYP View Post
                              Ssarge,

                              I don't think that was the point being made.
                              I'm not completely sure ... but I believe Scott's message was that he knows my name, my daughter's name, and where she plays ... he left out my address and phone numbers.

                              Comment

                              • azmatsfan
                                Baseball Dad
                                • Apr 2008
                                • 2158

                                Originally posted by HYP View Post
                                Azmatsfan,

                                Try something for me. Grab a bat, not a light wiffle ball bat, but a bat. Now lay the bat in your neck slot, slightly angled toward the pitcher but comfortable. Grab the bat in your top hand only. Raise your rear elbow, so that your upper arm is parralel with your shoulders.

                                Now supinate your forearm but do not let your elbow move. Can you do it? Yes you can because you are keeping your elbow up.

                                Now from the same position. Relax the elbow a little and do the same thing. Does your elbow go down? It should.

                                Now do the same thing while the rear shoulder is coming down (tilt the shoulders). Does the shaft of the bat stay close to the rear deltoid? It should.

                                Now get in the same position and focus on tilting the shoulders hard and driving the rear elbow down. No focus on the hands. What happens? The bat will come down and will go out but can you feel the pressure on the wrist and forearm? Can you feel how your hands/forearms feel left behind?

                                I will definetly try to get video of my demonstration up today. So you can see what I am describing.

                                Ok. I think the problem may be what some are calling supination. If the hand is not rotated in relation to the elbow, then supination hasn't occured. The same muscles used to supinate the rear forearm may be used, but that doesn't mean the forearm supinates.

                                Comment

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