They don't, so it's clearly not happening.
I have demonstrated this with multiple clips.
Also, the main topic at hand is early bat speed and torque, which are purported to occur at the start of the swing. They clearly aren't happening (because there is no evidence for them).
I do think it's worth discussing the whip and what happens and why as long you concede that that isn't "early".
Last edited by Chris O'Leary; 11-04-2009 at 07:05 AM.
I agree with all of this, think it's supported by what you see in my clips, and think you can stick a fork in the early bat speed and early torque debate as a result.The swing happens so fast, how is it possible to add something (to help the whip) after the swing has launched?The question then becomes how much hand, wrist, or forearm force is involved in the whip.
I think when you look at frames, especially at 60fps you get the wrong conclusion some times. These swings up close are so fast its hard to describe. Once these MLB guys go, the swing is over, done, complete IMHO. You better work the hands early rather than late............
"Tip it and rip it" - In Memory of Dmac
"Hit the inside seam" - In Memory of Swingbuster
With an accentuation of forearm supination ... I don't get what Jim describes ... in fact I get the opposite.
I suspect there is some confusion ... and it may be on my end ... but when I experiment with various degrees of force applied to supination of the rear forearm, I don't get casting, but end up having my rear elbow tuck in closer to my side ... sort of the opposite of casting.
Last edited by FiveFrameSwing; 11-04-2009 at 07:25 AM.
Starting from your stance ... and going through the complete motion ... inclusive of lateral tilt and triangular rotation. I want you to resist the breaking of the hinge angle (lead-forearm/barrel) early, while applying a force that would promote supination of the rear forearm. When you do this ... you should find that when you experiment with varying degrees of force to supinate the rear forearm, that an increase in that force will directly impact how your rear humerus tucks in to your side ... and it will cause it to occur at a greater rate. In a sense, you can "slam" your rear humerus down to your side simply through the force of supination of the rear forearm. In other words ... the degree of supination can force the dropping of the rear elbow.
Last edited by FiveFrameSwing; 11-04-2009 at 07:38 AM.
I'd like to take this opportunity to thank everyone. This has turned into a 180 degree opposite of what it was becoming. I believe many can benefit from this and, in fact, referenced a very good college coach to this thread since I know that he also is very interested in hitting.
Granny said Sonny stick to your guns if you believe in something no matter what. Because it's better to be hated for who you are than to be loved for who you're not.
Getting back on topic...
Here's a 60 FPS, full body version of the clip I've been using (the frame numbers are synced up across clips).
I think it's still a (somewhat) open question as to what happens to cause the whip that occurs after Frame 27 or Frame 28, so here's a clip that focuses in on those key frames.
I absolutely agree that momentum transfer is involved in the whip, but we know that the whip isn't going to happen automatically, and the forearm/bat angle isn't going to change (and the back forearm isn't going to supinate), solely due to physics rather than muscular activation unless something happens to cause it.
So what changes between Frame 27 or 28, when the whip hasn't yet happened, and Frame 29 when the whip is definitely happening?
Well, the most obvious thing (to me at least) is that the front leg stops just externally rotating and the front knee starts extending. It's plausible to believe that that would rapidly cause the torso to stop moving forward, which would cause the hands and head of the bat to rapidly fly forward and the head of the bat to pivot around the hands.
I'd be interested in hearing other people's candidates for the cause of the whip.
Last edited by Chris O'Leary; 11-04-2009 at 07:45 AM.
I see many people complimenting Jim for running his experiments. Jim is not an ML level hitter.
I've seen SE swings, and appreciate his experimentation, but he is not a ML level hitter.
Same for BM, XXXXXXX, and many others. Their experiments and continuous testing is helpful ... and yet they are not ML hitters.
IMO, it would be a big mistake not to compliment the Hanson Principle with conducting tests to better understand the actions "under the hood". In fact, I'd say you would be doing yourself, and your students, a disservice.
Last edited by FiveFrameSwing; 11-04-2009 at 08:06 AM.
With hands on the bat, holding the angle firm, it causes the force coming from rotation to transfer up the bat. You create a changing "moment of inertia" that prevents the lag that occurs with only a bolt at the simulated hand position. The force from the changing moment of inertia can cause the bat to bend, you don't have to try to whip early with the hands, to get it to bend.
Last edited by jbooth; 11-04-2009 at 07:49 AM.
What do you see?
I tell you what ... simply advance your swing to the Power-V position with varying degrees of force that would cause supination ... while maintaining the lead-arm/barrel hinge angle. Take note of what happens as you vary the degree of supination as you go from your stance to the Power-V.
It doesn't matter if the swing happens at the speed of light. Electrons have a velocity and so do body parts. Just because you can't see or sense the forces doesn't mean that they don't occur in a sequence.
Events may occur simultaneously, but energy from applied force moves in space and time, whether it be fast or slowly.
I agree, describing movements is difficult. IMO, one shouldn't teach from science, but you can't ignore it, or deny facts that can be identified, just because you don't comprehend them.