Student of the game.
Jim,Originally Posted by jbooth
In the clip below, I'm turning a box and you can see that the bat gets moving without any hand force.
Have you tried this with varying amounts of mass at the end of the "bat". If so, does that make any difference.
I assume it would.
Registered User
Registered User
Please explain the importance of this observation. Is it your opinion that supination of the rear forearm can't occur without breaking down the hinge angle? As you answer this, please take into account that many hitters under-go early-lae, the displacement of the lead elbow/arm and CHP.
Student of the game.
Again, you're not interpreting this correctly.
What you're seeing is an artifact, not something that is informative.
I wish it was, but it's not.
Let's please get back on topic.
Student of the game.
If supination were to occur early on during the swing, then the angle between the front forearm and the bat, and the distance between the barrel of the bat and the deltoid, would change.
They don't, so it's clearly not happening.
I have demonstrated this with multiple clips.
Also, the main topic at hand is early bat speed and torque, which are purported to occur at the start of the swing. They clearly aren't happening (because there is no evidence for them).
I do think it's worth discussing the whip and what happens and why as long you concede that that isn't "early".
Last edited by Chris O'Leary; 11-04-2009 at 07:05 AM.
Registered User
I agree with all of this, think it's supported by what you see in my clips, and think you can stick a fork in the early bat speed and early torque debate as a result.The swing happens so fast, how is it possible to add something (to help the whip) after the swing has launched?The question then becomes how much hand, wrist, or forearm force is involved in the whip.
I think when you look at frames, especially at 60fps you get the wrong conclusion some times. These swings up close are so fast its hard to describe. Once these MLB guys go, the swing is over, done, complete IMHO. You better work the hands early rather than late............
"Tip it and rip it" - In Memory of Dmac
"Hit the inside seam" - In Memory of Swingbuster
Student of the game.
If they were working the hands early, there would be some evidence for it.
And there isn't.
They may be doing something, but it doesn't appear to be what they think it is.
Registered User
Are you certain of this?
With an accentuation of forearm supination ... I don't get what Jim describes ... in fact I get the opposite.
I suspect there is some confusion ... and it may be on my end ... but when I experiment with various degrees of force applied to supination of the rear forearm, I don't get casting, but end up having my rear elbow tuck in closer to my side ... sort of the opposite of casting.
Registered User
Spare me Chris ... you of all people are one to drift off topic. As an FYI, what I wrote was hardly off topic.
Registered User
What are they doing in frames 2-7?
"Tip it and rip it" - In Memory of Dmac
"Hit the inside seam" - In Memory of Swingbuster
Registered User
This is why you need to pick up a bat and experiment to understand the actions "under the hood". When I run tests with varying degrees of force that would promote forearm supination, I find that I need that force applied at swing initiation.
Last edited by FiveFrameSwing; 11-04-2009 at 07:25 AM.
Student of the game.
Where's any movement of the bat that isn't explained by the movement of the upper arms and scaps?
Where's any change in the forearm/bat angle?
Student of the game.
IMO, and aside from pure demonstrations of physics concepts like Jim's clip does, nobody should care what you, I, or anyone else does, thinks, or feels.
What matters, at least to me, is what high level hitters like Pujols and Mauer do.
Registered User
Chris ... I'm going to ask that you pick up a bat ... or a speed stick ... and make some slow motion swings.
Starting from your stance ... and going through the complete motion ... inclusive of lateral tilt and triangular rotation. I want you to resist the breaking of the hinge angle (lead-forearm/barrel) early, while applying a force that would promote supination of the rear forearm. When you do this ... you should find that when you experiment with varying degrees of force to supinate the rear forearm, that an increase in that force will directly impact how your rear humerus tucks in to your side ... and it will cause it to occur at a greater rate. In a sense, you can "slam" your rear humerus down to your side simply through the force of supination of the rear forearm. In other words ... the degree of supination can force the dropping of the rear elbow.
Last edited by FiveFrameSwing; 11-04-2009 at 07:38 AM.
Super Moderator
Wouldn't this then require that we have the abilities of a MLB Player? I do appreciate the point you are making and the trial and error. My point then is that I was watching a lesson being given. I made a point. I mentioned that the young man was essentially cheating with his hips and so, on quality pitching his swing would be suspect. I then did my best to demonstrate cheating in various ways including flying the front shoulder to get a head start, flying the hands to get a head start. Cheating with the elbow... All terrible swings which still resulted in decent contact at a slow iron mike machine. However, those results were not the same went I went to the "fast" machine. Then, I was asked to demonstrate how a MLB Player does it. I can't! I'm not a MLB Player. I don't want to jump into that argument again in this thread. However, there is that special something that sets them apart. JMHO!
I'd like to take this opportunity to thank everyone. This has turned into a 180 degree opposite of what it was becoming. I believe many can benefit from this and, in fact, referenced a very good college coach to this thread since I know that he also is very interested in hitting.
THANK YOU!
Granny said Sonny stick to your guns if you believe in something no matter what. Because it's better to be hated for who you are than to be loved for who you're not.
Registered User
Yes ... and this is why it is important to understand the actions that take place "under the hood".
Student of the game.
Getting back on topic...
Here's a 60 FPS, full body version of the clip I've been using (the frame numbers are synced up across clips).
I think it's still a (somewhat) open question as to what happens to cause the whip that occurs after Frame 27 or Frame 28, so here's a clip that focuses in on those key frames.
I absolutely agree that momentum transfer is involved in the whip, but we know that the whip isn't going to happen automatically, and the forearm/bat angle isn't going to change (and the back forearm isn't going to supinate), solely due to physics rather than muscular activation unless something happens to cause it.
So what changes between Frame 27 or 28, when the whip hasn't yet happened, and Frame 29 when the whip is definitely happening?
Well, the most obvious thing (to me at least) is that the front leg stops just externally rotating and the front knee starts extending. It's plausible to believe that that would rapidly cause the torso to stop moving forward, which would cause the hands and head of the bat to rapidly fly forward and the head of the bat to pivot around the hands.
I'd be interested in hearing other people's candidates for the cause of the whip.
Last edited by Chris O'Leary; 11-04-2009 at 07:45 AM.
Registered User
If the implication is that one needs to be one of the few elite ML hitters to run such experiments with understanding ... then the answer is "no".
I see many people complimenting Jim for running his experiments. Jim is not an ML level hitter.
I've seen SE swings, and appreciate his experimentation, but he is not a ML level hitter.
Same for BM, XXXXXXX, and many others. Their experiments and continuous testing is helpful ... and yet they are not ML hitters.
IMO, it would be a big mistake not to compliment the Hanson Principle with conducting tests to better understand the actions "under the hood". In fact, I'd say you would be doing yourself, and your students, a disservice.
Last edited by FiveFrameSwing; 11-04-2009 at 08:06 AM.
Instructor
It's due to the fact that the hands are firm and hold the right angle, whereas, with the PVC Box demo the moment of inertia put into the shaft happens later because the bolt at the simulated hand position is not firm.
. . .
so if it's only "momentum transfer due to the rotation of the body" . . . what force/energy causes Uggla's (Frame #50) and DeRosa's (Frame 64/65) bats to "bend" or Rose's bat to blur while they are still almost perpendicular to the batter's box and not much further in the swing as Jim's PVC box swing?
With hands on the bat, holding the angle firm, it causes the force coming from rotation to transfer up the bat. You create a changing "moment of inertia" that prevents the lag that occurs with only a bolt at the simulated hand position. The force from the changing moment of inertia can cause the bat to bend, you don't have to try to whip early with the hands, to get it to bend.
Last edited by jbooth; 11-04-2009 at 07:49 AM.
Student of the game.
I'm not sure what you are saying here.
A force that resists the breaking of the hinge angle would be pronation (because the whip is going to automatically cause your back forearm to supinate).
You can't pronate and supinate the forearm at the same time.
Team Veteran
What do you see?
Registered User
Chris,Getting back on topic...
Here's a 60 FPS, full body version of the clip I've been using (the frame numbers are synced up across clips).
I think it's still a (somewhat) open question as to what happens to cause the whip that occurs after Frame 27 or Frame 28, so here's a clip that focuses in on those key frames.
I absolutely agree that momentum transfer is involved in the whip, but we know that the whip isn't going to happen automatically, and the forearm/bat angle isn't going to change (and the back forearm isn't going to supinate), solely due to physics rather than muscular activation unless something happens to cause it.
So what changes between Frame 27 or 28, when the whip hasn't yet happened, and Frame 29 when the whip is definitely happening?
Well, the most obvious thing (to me at least) is that the front leg stops just externally rotating and the front knee starts extending. It's plausible to believe that that would rapidly cause the torso to stop moving forward, which would cause the hands and head of the bat to rapidly fly forward and the head of the bat to pivot around the hands.
I'd be interested in hearing other people's candidates for the cause of the whip.
IMO it's the pulling forces that are created back to the ball. The shoulders and hips are rotating with the swing to help suck the barrel around. The hitter the starts out by pushing the bat creates different forces which delay the whip.
EL
Student of the game.
Jim doesn't have to be.
All he's doing in his clip is demonstrating conservation of momentum, which is a physics concept (and which is why all he does is turn a PVC box with a flail attached).
Registered User
Excellent idea. For a moment there I thought there might be some other intent.
What were the result of the experiment I asked you to do ... or did you blow that off?
I tell you what ... simply advance your swing to the Power-V position with varying degrees of force that would cause supination ... while maintaining the lead-arm/barrel hinge angle. Take note of what happens as you vary the degree of supination as you go from your stance to the Power-V.
Instructor
I don't mean this in an offensive way whatsoever, but that is simply a statement from ignorance of science and physics.
It doesn't matter if the swing happens at the speed of light. Electrons have a velocity and so do body parts. Just because you can't see or sense the forces doesn't mean that they don't occur in a sequence.
Events may occur simultaneously, but energy from applied force moves in space and time, whether it be fast or slowly.
I agree, describing movements is difficult. IMO, one shouldn't teach from science, but you can't ignore it, or deny facts that can be identified, just because you don't comprehend them.
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