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Thread: Whip, Swivel, Early Bat Speed, Torque, and Such

  1. #41
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    Quote Originally Posted by FiveFrameSwing View Post
    But it appears to answer the deceleration portion later in the swing also.

    What I'm saying is the bend, the increase in bend, and the inversion in bend ... all add up ... are you certain it is coincidence?
    Yes.

    Also, and I got this wrong in the past, what you are seeing in the frames right before the POC is an artifact that is due to rapid movement, not deceleration. Paradoxically, if the bat was decelerating through the POC, then the bat would be straight, not curved.
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  2. #42
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    This is a great thread. More, more.

    BTW, I would like to see the PVC "bat" swung with the typical elbow slam to the hip and see if that changes anything.

  3. #43
    Quote Originally Posted by cartersball View Post
    This is quite a shock to me. For I still clearly remember the days when JJA, Jofus, 4for4, Ohfor, and many others said Jim was completely off base on his analysis of the swing and with what he teaches. As far as I know Jim hasn't changed his views on what he teaches over the last few years. Interesting that all these other views have.

    Ummm....I've never said Jim was off base on his analysis or what he teaches. Actually, when I first started trolling this and other hitting sites, Jim was one of the ones that I felt had a pretty good grasp of things, and I even looked to see if he had a website or anything.

    That's not to say that I agree with "everything" that he says, but you could say that about anyone.

  4. #44
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    Quote Originally Posted by jbooth View Post
    Note how close the shaft of the bat (the part between the hands and the sweet spot) stays to the back shoulder. This is accomplished by delaying release of the barrel. If they were torqing with the hands, the shaft would come away from the shoulder much earlier.

    In frame 54 of Uggla and 67 of DeRosa you see the bat fly out. IMO, this is when hand force comes into play.
    I agree with all of this, think it's supported by what you see in my clips, and think you can stick a fork in the early bat speed and early torque debate as a result.

    The question then becomes how much hand, wrist, or forearm force is involved in the whip.

    Is it 0, 20, 50, or 80 percent or some other number?

    I will say that my concern is that if you try to muscle up during the whip, you could very easily slow it down, so I would argue for less rather than more (at least when it comes to properly timed swings)[1]. That is something you see in pitchers. When they actively try to flex their wrist through the release point they actually throw the ball slower than when they just let it unhinge on its own.

    I'd be interested in what people think and why.

    [1] I do think the amount of hand force will vary according the the location of the pitch. For example, I could see the hands decelerating (or at least not acclerating) the head of the bat on a pitch where the batter was fooled.
    Last edited by Chris O'Leary; 11-04-2009 at 07:24 AM.
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  5. #45
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    cartersball,

    Baloney. Booth will be the first to tell you that I have complemented him on his demos for years. He understands the physics pretty well and his demos have shown that knowledge in a simple, easy to understand way that can make it easier for non-physicists (i.e., most coaches and players on this board) to undertstand.

    Once again, you comments are nothing but a predictable, pathetic attempt to create controversy when there is none.

    -JJA

  6. #46
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    FFS,

    Here is an explanation of how shutters work, midway down demonstrates a rolling shutter (commonly used in high speed cameras) which should make it apparent how artifacts in Chris' video can occur. This is a well known problem. The previous article should help you understand that there is no significant bending of the bat during the swing, though of course it does occur right at/after contact.

    http://www.dvxuser.com/jason/CMOS-CCD/

    -JJA

    P.S. Mud, I'll get to your post in detail later this evening. Please be patient as I'm exceedingly busy most of the day. This is where I actually do know what I'm talking about...

  7. #47
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    Quote Originally Posted by Chris O'Leary View Post
    A video artifact.

    The fact that the bat bends more at the top and bottom of the frame is an interaction between the bat and the shutter of the camera. While I wish it did, the truth is that it doesn't say anything about how fast the bat is moving at different points in time during the swing.
    Doesn't that contradict what you said in your earlier post when you wrote "The degree of distortion will be larger the faster the object is moving."

  8. #48
    Quote Originally Posted by cartersball View Post
    This is quite a shock to me. For I still clearly remember the days when JJA, Jofus, 4for4, Ohfor, and many others said Jim was completely off base on his analysis of the swing and with what he teaches. As far as I know Jim hasn't changed his views on what he teaches over the last few years. Interesting that all these other views have.
    "As far as [you] know...."???????

    You are misremembering and need to do a lot more reading on the subject.... I've said for as long as I can remember that Booth is one of the few that I would be OK with working with my own...Neither of us are monoliths so we may see some things differently from time to time. If you rewrite your passage with just the last character you mention, you would be on point.

  9. #49
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    Quote Originally Posted by FiveFrameSwing View Post
    Doesn't that contradict what you said in your earlier post when you wrote "The degree of distortion will be larger the faster the object is moving."
    No.

    It clarifies it.

    The distortion is only a problem for objects that are...

    1. Oriented vertically.
    2. Moving rapidly.

    That's why you see bending when the bat is at the 12 o'clock and 6 o'clock positions not when it's at the 9 o'clock position.
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  10. #50
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    Quote Originally Posted by Chris O'Leary View Post
    Yes.

    Also, and I got this wrong in the past, what you are seeing in the frames right before the POC is an artifact that is due to rapid movement, not deceleration. Paradoxically, if the bat was decelerating through the POC, then the bat would be straight, not curved.
    The bend in the bat barrel, at contact, is in accordance with what I would expect ... that being the hands decelerating while the bat head continues to be whipped forward ... and hence the bend we see ... even if this bend may appear greater due to the shutter issue you spoke of.

  11. #51
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    Quote Originally Posted by jbooth View Post
    In the clip below, I'm turning a box and you can see that the bat gets moving without any hand force.

    Jim,

    Have you tried this with varying amounts of mass at the end of the "bat". If so, does that make any difference.

    I assume it would.
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  12. #52
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    Quote Originally Posted by JJA View Post
    FFS,

    Here is an explanation of how shutters work, midway down demonstrates a rolling shutter (commonly used in high speed cameras) which should make it apparent how artifacts in Chris' video can occur. This is a well known problem. The previous article should help you understand that there is no significant bending of the bat during the swing, though of course it does occur right at/after contact.

    http://www.dvxuser.com/jason/CMOS-CCD/

    -JJA

    P.S. Mud, I'll get to your post in detail later this evening. Please be patient as I'm exceedingly busy most of the day. This is where I actually do know what I'm talking about...

  13. #53
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    Quote Originally Posted by Chris O'Leary View Post
    Here's Joe Mauer holding a constant forearm/bat angle for quite a long time.
    Please explain the importance of this observation. Is it your opinion that supination of the rear forearm can't occur without breaking down the hinge angle? As you answer this, please take into account that many hitters under-go early-lae, the displacement of the lead elbow/arm and CHP.

  14. #54
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    Quote Originally Posted by FiveFrameSwing View Post
    The bend in the bat barrel, at contact, is in accordance with what I would expect ... that being the hands decelerating while the bat head continues to be whipped forward ... and hence the bend we see ... even if this bend may appear greater due to the shutter issue you spoke of.
    Again, you're not interpreting this correctly.

    What you're seeing is an artifact, not something that is informative.

    I wish it was, but it's not.

    Let's please get back on topic.
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  15. #55
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    Quote Originally Posted by FiveFrameSwing View Post
    Please explain the importance of this observation. Is it your opinion that supination of the rear forearm can't occur without breaking down the hinge angle? As you answer this, please take into account that many hitters under-go early-lae, displacement of the lead elbow/arm and CHP.
    If supination were to occur early on during the swing, then the angle between the front forearm and the bat, and the distance between the barrel of the bat and the deltoid, would change.

    They don't, so it's clearly not happening.

    I have demonstrated this with multiple clips.

    Also, the main topic at hand is early bat speed and torque, which are purported to occur at the start of the swing. They clearly aren't happening (because there is no evidence for them).

    I do think it's worth discussing the whip and what happens and why as long you concede that that isn't "early".
    Last edited by Chris O'Leary; 11-04-2009 at 08:05 AM.
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  16. #56
    I agree with all of this, think it's supported by what you see in my clips, and think you can stick a fork in the early bat speed and early torque debate as a result.
    The question then becomes how much hand, wrist, or forearm force is involved in the whip.
    The swing happens so fast, how is it possible to add something (to help the whip) after the swing has launched?

    I think when you look at frames, especially at 60fps you get the wrong conclusion some times. These swings up close are so fast its hard to describe. Once these MLB guys go, the swing is over, done, complete IMHO. You better work the hands early rather than late............
    "Tip it and rip it" - In Memory of Dmac
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  17. #57
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    Quote Originally Posted by Stealth View Post
    You better work the hands early rather than late............
    If they were working the hands early, there would be some evidence for it.

    And there isn't.

    They may be doing something, but it doesn't appear to be what they think it is.
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  18. #58
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    Quote Originally Posted by Chris O'Leary View Post
    I agree with all of this, think it's supported by what you see in my clips, and think you can stick a fork in the early bat speed and early torque debate as a result.
    Are you certain of this?

    With an accentuation of forearm supination ... I don't get what Jim describes ... in fact I get the opposite.

    I suspect there is some confusion ... and it may be on my end ... but when I experiment with various degrees of force applied to supination of the rear forearm, I don't get casting, but end up having my rear elbow tuck in closer to my side ... sort of the opposite of casting.

  19. #59
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    Quote Originally Posted by Chris O'Leary View Post
    Again, you're not interpreting this correctly.

    What you're seeing is an artifact, not something that is informative.

    I wish it was, but it's not.

    Let's please get back on topic.
    Spare me Chris ... you of all people are one to drift off topic. As an FYI, what I wrote was hardly off topic.

  20. #60
    Quote Originally Posted by Chris O'Leary View Post
    If they were working the hands early, there would be some evidence for it.

    And there isn't.

    They may be doing something, but it doesn't appear to be what they think it is.
    What are they doing in frames 2-7?
    "Tip it and rip it" - In Memory of Dmac
    "Hit the inside seam" - In Memory of Swingbuster

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