Whip, Swivel, Early Bat Speed, Torque, and Such

[HYP]

If they were working the hands early, there would be some evidence for it.

And there isn't.

They may be doing something, but it doesn't appear to be what they think it is.

Yah, because every MLB hitter who has ever discussed hitting talks about their hands. They all must be wrong.

[jbooth]

How does this fit into what David Wright talks about, when he says, "I want my shoulders to feel like they finish where they started" or when Ichiro says, "I don't want my chest to face the pitcher to soon"? Sounds like they are advocating not turning the shoulders there for not turning the torso.

Simply a cue to not turn the shoulders before the hips make them turn. I have always taught that you try to keep the front shoulder in. That doesn't mean that it actually does stay in. It moves out on every swing and it pulls the hands forward when it does.

Lets go further into what David Wright talks about. He says. "I want to feel my hands working. When I can let the ball get deep, almost like I'm hitting it out of the catchers mitt, and drive it to right field. I know my hands are working good".

Again, a feeling and cue.

Again sounds like he is advocating the use of his hands and not turning the shoulders and torso.

So, how come his shoulders DO turn?

On your little demonstration, how deep could you let the ball get? When you rotate the shoulders/torso to get the bat going how deep can you let the ball get? NOT VERY.

Baloney, letting the ball get deep is simply a timing issue, not a mechanical issue.

I know, I know, the guys actually doing it against the best pitching in the world don't really know what their doing. Us guys sitting around on a computer know way better then them.

They absolutely know what they feel. But, it's obvious that they don't know what actually causes the feel.

Hopefully we'll be able to get together in person soon (if you still want to), and I can explain it to you and debunk just about everything in you-know-who's theory.

[1chapterahead]

Just because his rear arm turns palm up doesn't mean he's supinating the rear forearm. Look at the angle of his shoulders and the path of his front arm.

You and I have already established that we see different things in these swings. Maybe it would be more helpful if you provided a swing of yourself or son or player, doing what you teach or advocate. I'd like to see if it holds up to your standards. Otherwise, you may be commenting on something you can't or will never be able to produce yourself... Understand?

[Chris O'Leary]

You can begin supination early and maintain the hinge angle. You can begin supination early and keep the shaft close to the deltoid.

You can't have an action without an equal and opposite action.

What the video evidence says is that, at most, good hitters are applying a force that is maintaining the hinge angle.

[jbooth]

Dead on. Great job Jim. In this demo what you say is true.
What would the muscle groups be that hold that box to your chest?
Perhaps that would help us how to learn to hold the bat across the chest and utilize tangential accleration from body rotation to propel the bat.

What to do with that outside pitch? Here's a thought, watch it.

Not sure how to take this post. Are you being sarcastic?

[HYP]

Getting back on topic...

Here's a 60 FPS, full body version of the clip I've been using (the frame numbers are synced up across clips).



I think it's still a (somewhat) open question as to what happens to cause the whip that occurs after Frame 27 or Frame 28, so here's a clip that focuses in on those key frames.



I absolutely agree that momentum transfer is involved in the whip, but we know that the whip isn't going to happen automatically, and the forearm/bat angle isn't going to change (and the back forearm isn't going to supinate), solely due to physics rather than muscular activation unless something happens to cause it.

So what changes between Frame 27 or 28, when the whip hasn't yet happened, and Frame 29 when the whip is definitely happening?

Well, the most obvious thing (to me at least) is that the front leg stops just externally rotating and the front knee starts extending. It's plausible to believe that that would rapidly cause the torso to stop moving forward, which would cause the hands and head of the bat to rapidly fly forward and the head of the bat to pivot around the hands.

I'd be interested in hearing other people's candidates for the cause of the whip.

You are focused in the wrong spots. Yes that is where the bat ultimately whips but the process started before that. You might as well start from that position.

Yes there is momentum transfer but you are wrong with how the momentum gets started. It is not just hold on and turn to get it started.

[1chapterahead]

You are focused in the wrong spots. Yes that is where the bat ultimately whips but the process started before that. You might as well start from that position.

Yes there is momentum transfer but you are wrong with how the momentum gets started. It is not just hold on and turn to get it started.

HYP, I was going to say the same thing, unfortunately I'm getting the feeling it's all lost on him anyway, so I gave up!

[jbooth]

Why would it if the back shoulder was coming with it?

I thought you said the shoulders don't rotate?

[jbooth]

clifton does have you there big jim ,,been ther done that...BUT at least i wont be there yelling at you to get a "running start" so you can handle the outside stuff..

Have me where?

I handle outside just fine, and so do my students.

Plus, I'm not saying you don't use hand force, I'm discussing WHEN it happens.

[wogdoggy]

Have me where?

I handle outside just fine, and so do my students.

Plus, I'm not saying you don't use hand force, I'm discussing WHEN it happens.

i think it HAS to happen before you do otherwise you die outside...I PERSONALLY believe the hands help the bat move from THE GET GO...

[HYP]

Simply a cue to not turn the shoulders before the hips make them turn. I have always taught that you try to keep the front shoulder in. That doesn't mean that it actually does stay in. It moves out on every swing and it pulls the hands forward when it does.



Again, a feeling and cue.



So, how come his shoulders DO turn?



Baloney, letting the ball get deep is simply a timing issue, not a mechanical issue.



They absolutely know what they feel. But, it's obvious that they don't know what actually causes the feel.

Hopefully we'll be able to get together in person soon (if you still want to), and I can explain it to you and debunk just about everything in you-know-who's theory.

Yes, I agree. They are all cues to things they are trying to make happen. Why else have a cue? Why are all of their cues related to the shoulders not turning and the hands working early? There has to be something to them.

They don't say get the hands involved early so they will rotate their shoulders harder. No, they use the cue to get the hands active on the bat early.

I agree. They do know what they feel but where I disagree with you is, when you say they don't know what causes that feel. The cues cause that feel. That is why they have them. That is why they think about them. That is why they mention them. Thos cues and the things they are trying to do creatye that feel.

Yes, I absolutely still want to get together with you. I seek the truth. If you can help me, help my son and others I am all ears. Hope we can meet up soon.

[jbooth]

thats funny booth,,seems to me you admitted doing some stuff he reccomended and you said you hit the ball 20 feet further than ever before..

Yes, I realized that I was holding my hands back too long, and not doing much with them to move the barrel.

I worked on that and got the bat going better. I'll REPEAT, I'm not saying that you do NOTHING with the hands. But, I disagree with how you-know-who says they get used. I'm hitting the ball farther, and using my hands more, but not like that guy's theory.

IMO, MLB hitters do not do this;



The above IMO, is NOT the same as this;

[Cannonball]

deleted by me

[HYP]

I thought you said the shoulders don't rotate?

The shoulders do rotate. They have to as evident by video. They are not making them rotate. they are applying force to the handle of the bat with the hands. The shoulders are keeping up.

Did you see where I wrote that if the focus is somewhere other then the hands the hands will get left behind. They will never get caught up. They are simply noet strong enough. That is why they have to be active early.

The hands don't keep up with the shoulders. The shoulders keep up with the hands.

[wogdoggy]

Why would you have to attempt to debunk anyone's idea? Why wouldn't you present what you know on it's own merits for everyone here to read? That'd have considerable value instead of the innuendo. JMHO!

you tell me booth wrote it

[jbooth]

i think it HAS to happen before you do otherwise you die outside...I PERSONALLY believe the hands help the bat move from THE GET GO...

Well, I don't know the absolute truth (I don't think anybody does), but I've talked personally with 2 former MLB hitters and one AAA hitter who said they don't move the barrel early with force from the hands.

They all said they lag the barrel and then throw it. Yes, they use the hands to throw it, but they don't throw from the top.

[Chris O'Leary]

How does this fit into what David Wright talks about, when he says, "I want my shoulders to feel like they finish where they started" or when Ichiro says, "I don't want my chest to face the pitcher to soon"? Sounds like they are advocating not turning the shoulders there for not turning the torso.

Lets go further into what David Wright talks about. He says. "I want to feel my hands working. When I can let the ball get deep, almost like I'm hitting it out of the catchers mitt, and drive it to right field. I know my hands are working good".

Again sounds like he is advocating the use of his hands and not turning the shoulders and torso.

Like Jim, I think these are cues that facilitate things like separation.

You can compare them to reality for yourself.



The clip above is of David Wright working on hitting outside pitches the other way during BP.

I'm actually very glad that you asked this question, because it forced me to really dig into this clip. When I did, I found some pretty interesting things when I went through it frame by frame.

First, and as Jim's clip PVC box clip demonstrates, the only thing that will create a true whip effect is the rapid acceleration, and then equally rapid deceleration, of the shoulders. That is hard to see in my other side clips, but really obvious in this clip.

Working backwards, and looking at the position of the letters of his name on the back of his jersey, you can see that the shoulders are at a dead stop in Frame 45 through Frame 47, and are mostly stopped in Frame 44. That implies that the shoulders were decelerating at least in Frame 43, and were probably decelerating in Frame 42.



What is interesting (to me at least) is that Frame 42 is the frame where you see the first signs of a change in the forearm/bat hinge angle. That says to me that momentum, due to the rapid deceleration of the shoulders, is a very important component of the whipping of the bat into the strike zone (and not just a big old coincidence).

I will admit that this whip effect in this clip may be accentuated by the location of the pitch (outside) and how that causes the shoulders to come to a screeching halt. A slightly different process may be in effect for inside pitches, but in that case I think the whip is driven by the hard left turn the hands have to take to handle an inside pitch.

I think I also see evidence of this in the clip above. Notice how the main whip, which takes place beyond Frame 42, is also accompanied by the hands following an arcing path to the left (which I think some people call "turning the corner").

[Mark H]

What the video evidence says is that, at most, good hitters are applying a force that is maintaining the hinge angle.

Yes, but a restraining torque and or it's opposite and when?

[jbooth]

Did you see where I wrote that if the focus is somewhere other then the hands the hands will get left behind? They will never get caught up. They are simply noet strong enough. That is why they have to be active early.

The hands don't keep up with the shoulders. The shoulders keep up with the hands.

I totally disagree, but I'll wait until we get together to explain why. It's too hard to detail in writing.

[wogdoggy]

You are focused in the wrong spots. Yes that is where the bat ultimately whips but the process started before that. You might as well start from that position.

Yes there is momentum transfer but you are wrong with how the momentum gets started. It is not just hold on and turn to get it started.

Yes there is momentum transfer but you are wrong with how the momentum gets started. It is not just hold on and turn to get it started


BINGO !!!!

[Chris O'Leary]

You are focused in the wrong spots. Yes that is where the bat ultimately whips but the process started before that. You might as well start from that position.

Yes there is momentum transfer but you are wrong with how the momentum gets started. It is not just hold on and turn to get it started.

Here's a clip of the upper body that starts when the front heel lifts.

[Mark H]

When I keep my shoulders turning, and spin around and around ('til I get dizzy), the hinge stays constant.

When I do the same, I have to apply a restraining torque to keep the bat from swinging out. If the hinge angle stayed constant with constant rotation, a flail mower wouldn't work.

Good thread guys. Good job starting and keeping it on point Chris. Keep it up.

[collegeStar]

If I remember correctly, Yeager described xx 2nd engine/swivel this way:

"Garbage"

[FiveFrameSwing]

It's possible, but there's no evidence for it since the forearm/bat angle doesn't change.

Also, an approximately 90 degree forearm/bat angle is exactly what you would expect to see at this point if the acceleration was either increasing or constant.

Chris ... first, thank you for running an experiment ... even if it was on 'spinning' as opposed to the experiment I asked you to run.

Could I get you to run that other experiment. If you attempt to maintain the lead-arm/barrel angle at 90-degrees, while applying force that 'would' cause supination of the rear forearm ... and of course while having a feeling of a 'soft' rear elbow ... does that 'force' assist in the dropping of your rear elbow?

[Mark H]

If I remember correctly, Yeager described xx 2nd engine/swivel this way:

"Garbage"

Yeah Yeager's people often say good stuff but it concerns me a little that I'm agreeing with collegeStar.