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Thread: Whip, Swivel, Early Bat Speed, Torque, and Such

  1. #81
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    Quote Originally Posted by FiveFrameSwing View Post
    This is true. But let me ask you ... at this point in the swing ... is it remotely possible that there is a force being applied that would promote supination of the rear-forearm?

    Sure it's POSSIBLE, and I don't know for a fact what an MLB hitter feels or thinks at that point, but in my OPINION, he isn't applying a supinating force.

  2. #82
    Quote Originally Posted by Chris O'Leary View Post
    Nothing that contradicts what I've said.

    If you go through this clip frame by frame, you will see that he maintains a constant forearm/bat angle until 2 frames before the POC (the second red Kaaaaaaaa-Pow frame).
    Did he torque the bat prior to that? Note the color code I used. The degrees of color IMO are the degrees of hand torque being applied.
    Last edited by 1chapterahead; 11-04-2009 at 09:17 AM.

  3. #83
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    Quote Originally Posted by FiveFrameSwing View Post
    I tell you what ... simply advance your swing to the Power-V position with varying degrees of force that would cause supination ... while maintaining the lead-arm/barrel hinge angle. Take note of what happens as you vary the degree of supination as you go from your stance to the Power-V.
    When I keep my shoulders turning, and spin around and around ('til I get dizzy), the hinge stays constant.

    When I stop my shoulders from turning, the bat whips out into the strike zone (as in Jim's demonstration but more forcefully due to the greater mass and end loading of the bat).

    P.S. I'm doing this with a 34" wood bat (LS Maple P72) so as to get as close to a major league bat as I can (most pros uses 35" bats).
    Last edited by Chris O'Leary; 11-04-2009 at 09:19 AM.
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  4. #84
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    Quote Originally Posted by FiveFrameSwing View Post
    This is true. But let me ask you ... at this point in the swing ... is it remotely possible that there is a force being applied that would promote supination of the rear-forearm?
    It's possible, but there's no evidence for it since the forearm/bat angle doesn't change.

    Also, an approximately 90 degree forearm/bat angle is exactly what you would expect to see at this point if the acceleration was either increasing or constant.
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  5. #85
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    Quote Originally Posted by 1chapterahead View Post
    Did he torque the bat prior to that? Note the color code I used. The degrees of color IMO are the degrees of hand torque being applied.
    There's no evidence for any torque in the first couple of red frames because the forearm/bat angle doesn't change.

    As I have said before, if there's torque at this point, where's the evidence of it?

    So far, what I see is (mostly to entirely) whip.
    Last edited by Chris O'Leary; 11-04-2009 at 09:24 AM.
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  6. #86
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    Quote Originally Posted by 4for4 View Post
    To carry over some comments I made from another thread on this topic:



    This video is a very good one to illustrate the fallacy of THT/forearm swiveling/supination/launch and spend/early batspeed. Its conclusive IME.

    Take note of the lines scribed by the rear hand and the shoulders and how they move.



    There is no supination/swiveling until at the earliest, frame nine.
    Well done. You should teach supination near / at frame 9.

    Your lines do not scribe the movement of the rear hand. Not even close. You know that.

  7. #87
    Quote Originally Posted by Chris O'Leary View Post
    There's no evidence for any torque in the first couple of red frames because the forearm/bat angle doesn't change.

    As I have said before, if there's torque at this point, where's the evidence of it?

    So far, what I see is (mostly to entirely) whip.
    You don't see evidence because you have never swung a bat or taught anyone else how to swing a bat... I do and have, and I've tried to share that but it seems there is just too much vested in theory to make the truth clear. IMHO



  8. #88
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    Quote Originally Posted by jbooth View Post
    It has nothing to do with the hands applying force. The barrel is exhibiting tangential acceleration at frame 9 due to the acceleration and change of direction of the hands, due to the torso rotating and moving the hands out and forward.

    In the clip below, I'm turning a box and you can see that the bat gets moving without any hand force. However, it moves very late. In a real swing, the hands are holding the bat so that the hand joint doesn't delay in breaking the inertia of the barrel. If I was holding the bat, the barrel would move at frame 11 when the yellow line appears. Force from the hands can be applied then to help whip the bat and get the barrel accelerating sooner.



    You can also see that the bathead moves from behind my head, to over my back shoulder and there is no force coming from hands. You don't need hands or THT to get the barrel moving.

    IMO, the barrel is initially moving from torso movement, but I do believe that the hands do apply force to accelerate the bat, but not until about frame 11 in my clip and about frame 09 in the Pujols clip.

    If hand force was used in my clip, the bat would have hit the tee by about frame 21, instead of later. But, the primary force moving the bat is tangential acceleration from body rotation, not from hand action. Hand action helps, but it isn't the primary force.
    Dead on. Great job Jim. In this demo what you say is true.
    What would the muscle groups be that hold that box to your chest?
    Perhaps that would help us how to learn to hold the bat across the chest and utilize tangential accleration from body rotation to propel the bat.

    What to do with that outside pitch? Here's a thought, watch it.

  9. #89
    Quote Originally Posted by jbooth View Post
    I don't mean this in an offensive way whatsoever, but that is simply a statement from ignorance of science and physics.

    It doesn't matter if the swing happens at the speed of light. Electrons have a velocity and so do body parts. Just because you can't see or sense the forces doesn't mean that they don't occur in a sequence.

    Events may occur simultaneously, but energy from applied force moves in space and time, whether it be fast or slowly.

    I agree, describing movements is difficult. IMO, one shouldn't teach from science, but you can't ignore it, or deny facts that can be identified, just because you don't comprehend them.
    Now we are talking about electrons and hitting at the same time, ugh.........at least we agree you shouldn't teach from science.

    The part in bold - Chris, you might want to read this, there is something going on in frames 2-7 even if you can't see it.......imho.
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  10. #90
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    Quote Originally Posted by jbooth View Post
    It has nothing to do with the hands applying force. The barrel is exhibiting tangential acceleration at frame 9 due to the acceleration and change of direction of the hands, due to the torso rotating and moving the hands out and forward.

    In the clip below, I'm turning a box and you can see that the bat gets moving without any hand force. However, it moves very late. In a real swing, the hands are holding the bat so that the hand joint doesn't delay in breaking the inertia of the barrel. If I was holding the bat, the barrel would move at frame 11 when the yellow line appears. Force from the hands can be applied then to help whip the bat and get the barrel accelerating sooner.



    You can also see that the bathead moves from behind my head, to over my back shoulder and there is no force coming from hands. You don't need hands or THT to get the barrel moving.

    IMO, the barrel is initially moving from torso movement, but I do believe that the hands do apply force to accelerate the bat, but not until about frame 11 in my clip and about frame 09 in the Pujols clip.

    If hand force was used in my clip, the bat would have hit the tee by about frame 21, instead of later. But, the primary force moving the bat is tangential acceleration from body rotation, not from hand action. Hand action helps, but it isn't the primary force.
    How does this fit into what David Wright talks about, when he says, "I want my shoulders to feel like they finish where they started" or when Ichiro says, "I don't want my chest to face the pitcher to soon"? Sounds like they are advocating not turning the shoulders there for not turning the torso.

    Lets go further into what David Wright talks about. He says. "I want to feel my hands working. When I can let the ball get deep, almost like I'm hitting it out of the catchers mitt, and drive it to right field. I know my hands are working good".

    Again sounds like he is advocating the use of his hands and not turning the shoulders and torso.

    On your little demonstration, how deep could you let the ball get? When you rotate the shoulders/torso to get the bat going how deep can you let the ball get? NOT VERY.

    I know, I know, the guys actually doing it against the best pitching in the world don't really know what their doing. Us guys sitting around on a computer know way better then them.

  11. #91
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    Quote Originally Posted by JJA View Post
    Once again, a clear, unambiguous demonstration of what really happens in the baseball swing. What you're seeing is momentum transfer due to the rotation of the body. Why people can't understand this demonstration is completely beyond me. And lookey there, I do think I see bat blur there, all without any handle torque :-).

    Nice job again Booth.
    Oh, no one is saying you can't do it that way because you can. What I am saying is you can't hit high level pitching that way. I would go as far as saying good luck hitting high school varsity pitching that way.

  12. #92
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    Quote Originally Posted by jbooth View Post
    Note how close the shaft of the bat (the part between the hands and the sweet spot) stays to the back shoulder. This is accomplished by delaying release of the barrel. If they were torqing with the hands, the shaft would come away from the shoulder much earlier.

    In frame 54 of Uggla and 67 of DeRosa you see the bat fly out. IMO, this is when hand force comes into play.
    Why would it if the back shoulder was coming with it?

  13. #93
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    Quote Originally Posted by Stealth View Post
    Chris, you might want to read this, there is something going on in frames 2-7 even if you can't see it.......imho.
    But if something is happening, where's the visual evidence for it?

    At most, you're maintaining the hinge angle, not increasing it, and the physics say that really isn't necessary.
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  14. #94
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    Quote Originally Posted by LClifton View Post
    Dead on. Great job Jim. In this demo what you say is true.
    What would the muscle groups be that hold that box to your chest?
    Perhaps that would help us how to learn to hold the bat across the chest and utilize tangential accleration from body rotation to propel the bat.

    What to do with that outside pitch? Here's a thought, watch it.
    clifton does have you there big jim ,,been ther done that...BUT at least i wont be there yelling at you to get a "running start" so you can handle the outside stuff..

  15. #95
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    Quote Originally Posted by 1chapterahead View Post
    You don't see evidence because you have never swung a bat or taught anyone else how to swing a bat... I do and have, and I've tried to share that but it seems there is just too much vested in theory to make the truth clear. IMHO


    Just because his rear arm turns palm up doesn't mean he's supinating the rear forearm. Look at the angle of his shoulders and the path of his front arm.

  16. #96
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    Quote Originally Posted by HYP View Post
    Why would it if the back shoulder was coming with it?
    Because the torqueing of the hands is an independent force.
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  17. #97
    Quote Originally Posted by LClifton View Post
    Well done. You should teach supination near / at frame 9.

    Your lines do not scribe the movement of the rear hand. Not even close. You know that.
    Wouldn't early supination (swivel) require movement of the forearm that exibits INDEPENDENT external of the forearm and top hand with corrisponding barrel movement as depicted in my "crude" arrows drawn on this clip?.....Which would open the gap between the barrel and deltoid earlier then we see in ANY MLB swing?.....

    I just don't see that happening in this..or any other MLB swing.........



    Early supination force and swivel is what I see here......And it doesn't match....

    Last edited by BoardMember; 11-04-2009 at 09:55 AM.

  18. #98
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    Quote Originally Posted by FiveFrameSwing View Post
    Excellent idea. For a moment there I thought there might be some other intent.




    What were the result of the experiment I asked you to do ... or did you blow that off?

    I tell you what ... simply advance your swing to the Power-V position with varying degrees of force that would cause supination ... while maintaining the lead-arm/barrel hinge angle. Take note of what happens as you vary the degree of supination as you go from your stance to the Power-V.
    When I go to the Power-V using supination my shoulders don't tilt and the angle between my front arm and the bat increases to 120 - 150 degrees.

  19. #99
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    Quote Originally Posted by Chris O'Leary View Post
    If supination were to occur early on during the swing, then the angle between the front forearm and the bat, and the distance between the barrel of the bat and the deltoid, would change.

    They don't, so it's clearly not happening.

    I have demonstrated this with multiple clips.

    Also, the main topic at hand is early bat speed and torque, which are purported to occur at the start of the swing. They clearly aren't happening (because there is no evidence for them).

    I do think it's worth discussing the whip and what happens and why as long you concede that that isn't "early".
    This whole statement is false.

    You can begin supination early and maintain the hinge angle. You can begin supination early and keep the shaft close to the deltoid.

    I am not saying that supination is the only thing that is happening. The rear elbow is slotting. The lead elbow is working up. The rear shoulder is coming down. The lead shoulder is coming up. If you start supination early along with the other things I mentioned then you will get what you see on video.

    If you just start by rotating the torso/shoulders. You will not have as much bat speed and you will be pulling off of every thing.

  20. #100
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    Quote Originally Posted by Stealth View Post
    The swing happens so fast, how is it possible to add something (to help the whip) after the swing has launched?

    I think when you look at frames, especially at 60fps you get the wrong conclusion some times. These swings up close are so fast its hard to describe. Once these MLB guys go, the swing is over, done, complete IMHO. You better work the hands early rather than late............
    I agree with this statement 100%. If you are not working the hands early they will get left behind. They will never be able to get caught up.

    I wish I can remember which MLB hitter it was that said, "If I am not thinking about my hands going first then they will get left behind."

    Ever ride a ten speed down a hill in high gear. The bike gets rolling so fast that when you go to peddle you just spin the pedals without speeding up because you can not catch up to the speed of the bike?

    That is what will happen if your hands are not engaged early.

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