Cues and what they mean

[HYP]

I didn't want to hijack another thread so I started a new one. I saw this in a different thread.

A big part of the problem is that MANY coaches don't really understand the movements of big leaguers, or just plain good swings, and teach very different movements (e.g. level swing, squishing the bug, and extension at the POC) that will absolutely kill a kid's swing.

I don't buy this.

Some cues (e.g. Power V at the POC) will always hurt a swing.

Now I don't think cues will kill a swing because certain cues may work differently for different players.

The cue I am refering to is extension at the POC. I have seen COL mention this a few times and I can sometimes see where this cue could and would work.

Do you teach your players to throw to the chest or throw through the chest? Does a football coach teach his linebacker to hit the runner in the belly button or to shove his belly button into his spine?

Point I am trying to make is I don't beleive every coach who uses this cue are expecting the point of contact to be with extended out, straight arms but rather they use it for a cue to get the hitter to stay through the ball. Versus cutting off the swing.

Are there anymore?

[jbooth]

I didn't want to hijack another thread so I started a new one. I saw this in a different thread.

Now I don't think cues will kill a swing because certain cues may work differently for different players.

The cue I am refering to is extension at the POC. I have seen COL mention this a few times and I can sometimes see where this cue could and would work.

Do you teach your players to throw to the chest or throw through the chest? Does a football coach teach his linebacker to hit the runner in the belly button or to shove his belly button into his spine?

Point I am trying to make is I don't beleive every coach who uses this cue are expecting the point of contact to be with extended out, straight arms but rather they use it for a cue to get the hitter to stay through the ball. Versus cutting off the swing.

Are there anymore?

A cue is a shorthand comment, or index, if you will, to a more complex move or action that has, at some point, been taught. The same cue could mean completely different things to different coaches.

Using a cue phrase assumes that the person who hears it, has the same understanding of the thing it references.

I have cues that I use with my students, and they know what the long-hand definition is. But, if you heard the cue, and didn't know what it references in MY glossary of terms, it probably wouldn't make sense to you. That's why you can't teach by cues. You have to teach something and then it may be referenced by a cue.

Also, cues can be so vague that nobody knows for sure what the underlying action is, and often one cue seems to contradict another. Something you stated in another thread is a good example;

You said that many MLB hitters talk about their hands and "active" hands, "getting the hands going" etc. And, you mentioned that you thought it meant to apply force to the barrel early to not let the hands get left behind. Yet, many MLB hitters also talk about, "releasing the barrel late", or "lagging" the barrel." The two cues are contradictory by your interpretation. How can you lag the barrel and release it late, and use the hands to get it moving, at the same time?

MY personal OPINION is that all the cues MLB hitters use in reference to the hands apply to the goal they have of getting them "to the ball" (another ambiguous cue.) I don't believe that they mean to use them to fiddle with the barrel early. The weight and force from the momentum of the arms changing angle, and the shoulders moving is enough to get the barrel moving, AND start the hands forward. The use of the hands that MLB hitters talk about, IMO, is in reference to what they do with them from APPROXIMATELY the point shown in the first photo below, and the second (contact.) Not, what they do with them prior to the point shown in the first photo.

first



second



I don't know EXACTLY what they do from the first photo position, up to contact, but I do believe that they do more than just let the barrel release from the momentum created by body rotation. They do something with the arms and hands in that space. They also, do something with the hands prior to photo one, but I don't believe it is an aggressive move meant to attack the ball. And, I do not believe that they supinate, or pull hard to move the barrel into the position of photo one. The action with the hands prior to photo one, is primarily to get the barrel in position to accurately release into the ball. Sure, it requires some force, but not an aggessive force to take the bat at the ball. JMO.

Back to cues;

What does "throw the barrel" mean?

What does "throw the hands" mean?

What does "stay inside the ball" mean?

What does "stay on top of the ball" mean?

What does "hit down on the ball" mean?

What does "stay closed" mean?

What does "stay back" mean?

What does "keep the hands back" mean? Especially after you hear, "throw the hands." ?!??

Any one of the above could be interpreted several ways. They don't mean anything until the person who used it, describes it.

[Jake Patterson]

A cue is nothing more than a specific instruction that a player understands.

[HYP]

A cue is a shorthand comment, or index, if you will, to a more complex move or action that has, at some point, been taught. The same cue could mean completely different things to different coaches.

Using a cue phrase assumes that the person who hears it, has the same understanding of the thing it references.

I have cues that I use with my students, and they know what the long-hand definition is. But, if you heard the cue, and didn't know what it references in MY glossary of terms, it probably wouldn't make sense to you. That's why you can't teach by cues. You have to teach something and then it may be referenced by a cue.

Also, cues can be so vague that nobody knows for sure what the underlying action is, and often one cue seems to contradict another. Something you stated in another thread is a good example;

You said that many MLB hitters talk about their hands and "active" hands, "getting the hands going" etc. And, you mentioned that you thought it meant to apply force to the barrel early to not let the hands get left behind. Yet, many MLB hitters also talk about, "releasing the barrel late", or "lagging" the barrel." The two cues are contradictory by your interpretation. How can you lag the barrel and release it late, and use the hands to get it moving, at the same time?

MY personal OPINION is that all the cues MLB hitters use in reference to the hands apply to the goal they have of getting them "to the ball" (another ambiguous cue.) I don't believe that they mean to use them to fiddle with the barrel early. The weight and force from the momentum of the arms changing angle, and the shoulders moving is enough to get the barrel moving, AND start the hands forward. The use of the hands that MLB hitters talk about, IMO, is in reference to what they do with them from APPROXIMATELY the point shown in the first photo below, and the second (contact.) Not, what they do with them prior to the point shown in the first photo.

first



second



I don't know EXACTLY what they do from the first photo position, up to contact, but I do believe that they do more than just let the barrel release from the momentum created by body rotation. They do something with the arms and hands in that space. They also, do something with the hands prior to photo one, but I don't believe it is an aggressive move meant to attack the ball. And, I do not believe that they supinate, or pull hard to move the barrel into the position of photo one. The action with the hands prior to photo one, is primarily to get the barrel in position to accurately release into the ball. Sure, it requires some force, but not an aggessive force to take the bat at the ball. JMO.

Back to cues;

What does "throw the barrel" mean?

What does "throw the hands" mean?

What does "stay inside the ball" mean?

What does "stay on top of the ball" mean?

What does "hit down on the ball" mean?

What does "stay closed" mean?

What does "stay back" mean?

What does "keep the hands back" mean? Especially after you hear, "throw the hands." ?!??

Any one of the above could be interpreted several ways. They don't mean anything until the person who used it, describes it.

What you said about my posts in another thread. Hitters can still get to lag with active hands early. They just don't hang out there. They pass through lag. if the hands are not active then they will be reactive and they don't have enough time to be reactive.

Now on to the cues. I agree that cues can be taken different ways. I have one that I ocassionally tell my hitters for certain pitchers and it is just a reminder. "If it starts down it stays down". This could be taken different ways. If I didn't explain it ahead of time.

I don't want to, right now, go through explanations of what the cues you gave mean to me.

Thanks for your input.

[songtitle]

Here is a list of cues used in rotational vs. linear. (halfway down page)

Talk amongst yourselves.

[1chapterahead]

Ride the back leg. When it's time to go, thrust the rear hip and work that top hand.

[Cannonball]

Cues never mean the same to every coach/player.

I think that any cue HAS to be accompanied by either a demonstration or perhaps video. It is much the same with intent. I know that "intent" is a clumsy phrase. What I am trying to convey is the difference in say a stop swing and why versus allowing hitters to stand up there and rake.

Some cues that I've used:

Hit with the back shoulder

Hit with the back hip

Sit

Control the front shoulder

Top hand is weak

Pull the Bow back

Front leg soft, firm, soft

Well, there are so many. My point now is that although I've posted these, are they the same as you use or do they have the same meaning? I rarely talk about the hands. Some of you are the opposite. Tilt means one thing to you (negative) while to me, it has a good connotation. Cues are cues. I'm betting we'd all see progress in hitters watching each other work.

[collegeStar]

Here is a list of cues used in rotational vs. linear. (halfway down page)

Talk amongst yourselves.

What an idiotic site....

[JJA]

Yeah, that site is full of baloney. Neither Lau advocates/advocated almost any of the nonsense credited to them on that web site under linear hitting. It's just someone being lazy. Interestingly, Lau Jr is one of the few who thinks "rotational hitting" is a synonym for "bad hitting", because his definition of "rotational hitting" is someone who is a back foot hitter, with their ball of the foot on the ground at contact.

[collegeStar]

agree....100% JJA

[Jake Patterson]

Yeah, that site is full of baloney. Neither Lau advocates/advocated almost any of the nonsense credited to them on that web site under linear hitting. It's just someone being lazy. Interestingly, Lau Jr is one of the few who thinks "rotational hitting" is a synonym for "bad hitting", because his definition of "rotational hitting" is someone who is a back foot hitter, with their ball of the foot on the ground at contact.

I would agree with the above.

[1chapterahead]

Yeah, that site is full of baloney. Neither Lau advocates/advocated almost any of the nonsense credited to them on that web site under linear hitting. It's just someone being lazy. Interestingly, Lau Jr is one of the few who thinks "rotational hitting" is a synonym for "bad hitting", because his definition of "rotational hitting" is someone who is a back foot hitter, with their ball of the foot on the ground at contact.

Is "get your back toe off the ground" a cue you use?

[cartersball]

A cue is nothing more than a specific instruction that a player understands.

Well said..... I would only add that different cues work for different players, and any cue is fine as long as the player (not the fans) understands the movement or process it conveys.

[Jake Patterson]

Well said..... I would only add that different cues work for different players, and any cue is fine as long as the player (not the fans) understands the movement or process it conveys.

Let's change it to this...
A cue is nothing more than a specific instruction that a specific player understands.

[Ursa Major]

Well said..... I would only add that different cues work for different players, and any cue is fine as long as the player (not the fans) understands the movement or process it conveys.

Or the opposing team. When Ursa Minor is pitching, I'll use terms (usually to tell him that he's throwing too many fastballs) that won't alert the opposition to what's coming.

My favorite cue with him? When he's being lethargic at the plate and not loading up or not swinging with authority, it's simply, "More cowbell." (If you don't know the reference, think Blue Oyster Cult's Don't Fear the Reaper.) Sometimes a good cue not only references a much more complex set of actions, it can also help modify the player's tone, especially to help loosen him up or tighten his focus, whichever is needed.

[JJA]

A cue is nothing more than a specific instruction that a specific player understands.

Excellent definition.

[cartersball]

I need ................... MORE COWBELL

[Bucketdad]

Hitters can still get to lag with active hands early. They just don't hang out there.

Thanks for your input.

Let me preface this with the following:

I have no agenda nor do I have any hidden meaning in the following question.

What is your, or anyone else who would like to respond to my question, definition of bat lag?

It is a hitting que that I have used incorrectly with my kids for the past 2+ years and has adversely affected their swings.
We are on the road to recovery.

BD

[jbooth]

Let me preface this with the following:

I have no agenda nor do I have any hidden meaning in the following question.

What is your, or anyone else who would like to respond to my question, definition of bat lag?

It is a hitting que that I have used incorrectly with my kids for the past 2+ years and has adversely affected their swings.
We are on the road to recovery.

BD

It means that the barrel of the bat should not arc out toward the plate too soon, and/or that the hands lead the barrel.

Below is a perfect example of bat lag, shown by Ted Williams.

Note that there is a 90 degree angle between his front forearm and the bat, that doesn't change in any of the 6 frames.

Most people believe that not much is happening with the wrists and forearms until about frame 6. A few people think differently. But, nearly 100% of MLB hitters get to the position in frame 6.



What feeling, or muscle actions in the wrists and arms, do you think Frank Robinson has in the swing shown in the link below. When does he apply force from the hands to make the barrel accelerate? That's the subject of much debate. In the 6 frame image above, IMO, the mind says to throw the barrel at the ball at frame 4, but the force doesn't take effect until frame 6. Just MY opinion.

http://firstpickclub.com/video/Robinson1.mpg