Mechanics Analyst
I thought the "Yes, Yes, No" versus "No, No, Yes" and early bat speed conversation that came up in another thread was interesting, I thought I'd create a thread dedicated to it. I'm sure this thread will go off course at some point, but in the meantime let me contribute a clip to the conversation.
What I see in this clip is that Pujols' swing is identical up to the moment the front heel plants, at which point he stops the process (or fails to launch).
When I get the chance, I will compare this to the home run to RF he hit 2 pitches later. I'm also looking for more of a check swing of Pujols (but they seem to be rare, which is interesting).
I'm interested in seeing what people think. I don't think I ever "thought" when hitting. I thought stepping in to the box. I definately thought on deck. However, when I stepped in to hit, I was focused on an area. It has since been suggested that even that was not what was happening when I hit as it is nearly impossible to really follow the ball. I might add that perhaps two or three times on breaking pitches, I thought "other way." Other than that, it was a reaction and not a thought.
Granny said Sonny stick to your guns if you believe in something no matter what. Because it's better to be hated for who you are than to be loved for who you're not. I rule his pathetic life!
That’s very much the way I remember it, and while there is lots of rhetoric to the contrary, I don’t know how much of the rhetoric is just that. It boils down to how much of hitting is conscious, and how much is unconscious.Originally Posted by Cannonball
Angels can fly because they take themselves lightly.
CB ... excellent topic.
I'd enjoy reading more on this particular topic. For example ... zoning a pitch on a 3-0 count, etc..
My take:
0-0.200 start moving forward to toe touch. (ie. every pitch)
0.200-0.250 if you think it's going to be a strike, start your swing - elbow drop and hip turn - in the general area where you think the ball will end up (must decide if it's fastball or offspeed here)
Last edited by songtitle; 11-09-2009 at 02:21 PM.
My Dad found a book by Ted Williams that was written way back in the day. In that book, Ted mentioned that when you step into the box, star at green, blink 3 times, open your eyes wide and hit. I tried to do that. Yes, could I think pitch in a certain area? Sure. Did I? I don't know. It was more looking out and reacting. Could I track the ball? To be honest, and I've typed this before I do believe that I saw the ball come off the bat once. That' is impossible and I know it. But in my mind's eye, I did if that make sense. Could I think look curve? Sure, could I recognize curve? Sure. Did I think it at the time of taking or swinging? I can't honestly say. I took a lot of classes on mental health years ago and have forgotten most of it. However, they mentioned in one phase about the minds ability to "fill in the pieces" of information. I found that facinating. Some of it is simply preconcieved notions that the mind substitutes for fact. I compare that to someone who says that the ball is looking like a beach ball when they are on a streak.
Granny said Sonny stick to your guns if you believe in something no matter what. Because it's better to be hated for who you are than to be loved for who you're not. I rule his pathetic life!
Rising fastball - your mind sees a 4 seam fastball and projects that it will follow a certain drop rate - then it does not - and it seems to rise.they mentioned in one phase about the minds ability to "fill in the pieces" of information
Isn't that about the perfect example! Thanks!
Granny said Sonny stick to your guns if you believe in something no matter what. Because it's better to be hated for who you are than to be loved for who you're not. I rule his pathetic life!
I just heard this idea recently on here about going to bat planning to swing on every pitch and only stopping on the ones you decide not to swing on (or however it was worded). I wonder if I should take this approach with my 12 yo. He has always hit pretty well until this fall season, when we bumped up the level of comp just a little bit from where he has played in the past. I tell you, the entire fall season it seemed as though he was determined to take every pitch and hope for the walk. I wonder if this could help him. I don't know that he really has a "mental approach" at all. We talked about being "more agressive" in general but it wasn't put into terms like this. Is this a pretty common approach?
rooster, at this age, many kids do not stride, or move forward, until they decide the pitch is good. By then, it's too late. Their front toe must be down by the time the ball is halfway home.
The batter should get a physical head-start (stride) and mental head-start (intent to rip) on every pitch.
Often, even kids or teenagers who know better will lapse into bad habits vs. slower pitching with respect to stride-every-pitch and intent-to-rip. Then, in comes a better pitcher, and...
Edited: Coaching a team of 12 or 14 players, I keep it simple and don't actively suggest that batters incorporate a tweak of the hips as part of their head-start. If I were the batting instructor of an individual player, I might think differently.
Last edited by skipper5; 11-10-2009 at 11:50 AM.
Skip
While yes-yes-no is a good description, I have not found it to be an effective cue. Possibly it's too passive, and appeals to the analytical part of the brain, which isn't good for split-second swing "decisions."
In the past couple of years, my cue is: stride every pitch with an "intent to rip" .
Last edited by skipper5; 11-10-2009 at 11:43 AM.
Skip
I don't know how somebody can think no-no-yes and hit a pitch 85mph or greater. The bat has to travel a good distance for you to decide yes so late but if you move it a little in the yes-yes-no you can stop it ... obviously unless it goes too far. It seems to me that no-no-yes would happen more on say a slider or curveball that starts inside and you don't pick up the spin very well and then maybe just using the yes as fighting the pitch off to live for another pitch.
“If there was ever a man born to be a hitter it was me.” - Ted Williams
"Didn't come up here to read. Came up here to hit." - Hank Aaron
Sounds good to me
Think about BP. They hit good because they are thinking swing at every pitch. They are just stopping on the bad ones. They are getting a running start. They are not afraid to swing at a bad pitch because it is BP.
In games the fear of striking out or swinging at a bad pitch comes into play. They are waiting to determine if it is a good pitch before they start. So you get a reaction swing or they get jammed on a 3-1 fast ball.
Think swing on every pitch.
I have a couple things I implement. Plans of attack, dependent upon pitcher.
Hard thrower may be Yes-No
Normal pitcher may be Yes, Yes-No
thumber may be Yes, Yes, Yes-No
Mechanics Analyst
I just put this together and thought it was pretty interesting because it shows what's going on mechanically when Pujols decides to swing (for a HR to RF) and when he decides to take a pitch.
IMO, the two clips are pretty much in lock step until Frame 22, when the lower body patterns change (the front heel stops dropping as fast in the bottom, take clip). The upper bodies diverge in Frame 24, when the back elbows fail to drop equal amounts.
One more question, I see what you mean about the mentality to think swing every time, but I don't understand what you mean by "yes, yes, no" vs "no, no, yes", etc. What does each yes/no stand for in sequential order? Are we talking about the approach depending on the number of strikes in the count or something like that?
Mechanics Analyst
To me, Yes, Yes, No, means...
1. Yes = Load
2. Yes = Weight Transfer
3. No = Don't rotate on front heel plant.
If you don't start your load and weight transfer on time, you can't catch up to a good fastball.
Last edited by Chris O'Leary; 11-11-2009 at 07:23 AM.
The reasoning behind this idea is that only one decision needs to be made, not two. As others have explained, it's easier to check your swing than it is to start your swing late and hit.
I tell all the kids that I work with to be looking to hit all the time. My own son ran into a bit of a rut last year as an 11YO, striking out too many times. He was being too selective on his pitches and then getting called strikes on marginal pitches while looking. He would blame the umpires, saying the strike zone was inconsistent. I told him to take the umpire out of the decision-making process and to swing at everything he thought he could hit. He then went on to tear it up and only struck out 3 times in ~20 games of all-star play. His attitude at the plate was completely different, and his confidence rose tremendously.
In the scenerio I gave, with the different number of yeses(sp?), this is what I mean.
Each yes is part of the load. Part of the preparing to hit. The no is the determination of stopping the swing. For a pitch you swing at you could say go instead of no.
For the hard thrower you are more of a yes, no hitter. Load and go or no.
Normal pitcher you can continue to load up a little longer
Thumber you can load even longer.
It is a reminder to stay back.
The objective is to be prepared to hit evry pitch thrown and just take the bad ones.
Breif story. My son went into a bit of a slump. I noticed that he was taking to many good pitches and didn't look prepared to hit as the ball approached. When I asked him about this he said, "Those pitches weren't that good". I said, "they were good enough for the umpire to call them strikes". Long staory short. I got mad at him for taking to many good pitches and he got mad at me for not beleiving they weren't that good.
He made up his mind to swing at anything close because no matter where it was I would think it was a good pitch anyways. He got a pitch just up out of the zone and inside but since he was mad and ready to hit. He hit it off of the left field fence.
The point is if you are ready to swing. You will be able to handle pitches and hit them hard. Even if they are not the perfect pitch.
These two post and the two side-by-side clips of Pujols posted by Chris comprise perhaps the most valuable three posts of the year for coaches/parents of kids in the 9 to 11 age bracket.Hyp said: In the scenerio I gave, with the different number of yeses(sp?), this is what I mean.
Each yes is part of the load. Part of the preparing to hit. The no is the determination of stopping the swing. For a pitch you swing at you could say go instead of no.
For the hard thrower you are more of a yes, no hitter. Load and go or no.
Normal pitcher you can continue to load up a little longer
Thumber you can load even longer.
It is a reminder to stay back.
The objective is to be prepared to hit evry pitch thrown and just take the bad ones.
Brief story. My son went into a bit of a slump. I noticed that he was taking to many good pitches and didn't look prepared to hit as the ball approached. When I asked him about this he said, "Those pitches weren't that good". I said, "they were good enough for the umpire to call them strikes". Long staory short. I got mad at him for taking to many good pitches and he got mad at me for not beleiving they weren't that good.
He made up his mind to swing at anything close because no matter where it was I would think it was a good pitch anyways. He got a pitch just up out of the zone and inside but since he was mad and ready to hit. He hit it off of the left field fence.
The point is if you are ready to swing. You will be able to handle pitches and hit them hard. Even if they are not the perfect pitch.
Forget the details of the mechanics -- if the kid can't develop a mindset to be ready to swing at every pitch, the mechanical stuff is rendered worthless anyway.
And, yes, Hyp -- kids have to understand that there are non-strikes that you can do plenty with. I hate it when kids take a high inside meatball, insisting that it wasn't a strike. Those suckers are gifts from the gods (or at least from the pitcher), frevvinsakes! Ursa Minor got one weekend before last and, thankfully, didn't take it and kept his hands in -- and backspinned that cripple into orbit in left center field:
((Well, okay, maybe this one wasn't inside, but it was definitely high. The day before, he had taken an inside hanger into the left field corner, but I didn't get that one on video... so you're stuck with this one.))
Last edited by Ursa Major; 11-11-2009 at 03:41 PM.
Mechanics Analyst
Here's a stop frame version of my Yes, Yes, No comparison clip.
How would you know? You've never been in the box to see one....
Mechanics Analyst
What does Pujols do and when?
Please get a point.
I think the stride commits a person to ball position to early and that nasty curve ball drops in.
Would love to see a bat speed analyses done between a stride hitter and not stride.
Bat to ball reaction is faster in no stride, IMHO. But that is another discussion.
IMHO,
drill
Yogi Berra was asked by a reporter "How do you catch a knuckle ball?" He came right back and said "When it stops rolling"
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