Do you need to swing well to teach a swing well?

[Jake Patterson]

This keeps coming up - and opinions seem to vary on this topic as much as they do on hitting.

While I agree that using the swing (and fielding, stealing, throwing, etc.) all need to be demonstrated by the coach in order to teach properly, I do not believe the coach needs to be as proficient at each skill as we hope are students will be.

Many factors come to mind...

1. Few coaches have ever achieved a high level ability to swing a bat. Most are ex youth or HS players
2. As we age our body's become more and more incapable. Muscles, bones, tendons, etc., just don't perform the way they used to.
3. What we did - may NOT be what we teach.

This does not mean we can not demonstrate elements of the swing well, but to feel a coach needs to swing a bat proficiently is not reasonable. One only needs to watch a MLB hitting coach in a cage trying to hit the same pitches as his players. Very few can....

[skipper5]

Great topic. Complex. I'll only address a small part--credibility..

Speaking as a coach of teenagers, not as a batting instructor per se:

It's not a necessity, but it sure helps.

I don't think it's important that a middle-aged coach projects to his players that he still could succeed in competitive baseball.

But it sure helps the credibility of your coaching if you can get in the cage in BP and rip some line drives with a fluid and technically decent-looking swing.

With pre-teen players, it matters less. And all players make allowances for ancient-looking coaches.

But with teenagers, it really helps if the piano teacher at least is at competent at scales and arpeggios, even if they can't play Mozart.

[mudvnine]

This keeps coming up - and opinions seem to vary on this topic as much as they do on hitting.

While I agree that using the swing (and fielding, stealing, throwing, etc.) all need to be demonstrated by the coach in order to teach properly, I do not believe the coach needs to be as proficient at each skill as we hope are students will be.

Many factors come to mind...

1. Few coaches have ever achieved a high level ability to swing a bat. Most are ex youth or HS players
2. As we age our body's become more and more incapable. Muscles, bones, tendons, etc., just don't perform the way they used to.
3. What we did - may NOT be what we teach.

This does not mean we can not demonstrate elements of the swing well, but to feel a coach needs to swing a bat proficiently is not reasonable. One only needs to watch a MLB hitting coach in a cage trying to hit the same pitches as his players. Very few can....

I believe the answer to your post boils down to two words you wrote, "able" and "proficient". The coach should be "able" to demonstate the swing he is trying to teach, but he does not have to be as "proficient" at it as he expects his hitters to be.

IOWs he should be "able" to demonstate his swing in the cage against pitching that he is capable of handling, but should not he expected to be "proficient" at it as his players might be, depending on the level of ball that he is coaching . . . unless he's coaching at the "coach pitch" level.

I'm curious to see how others feel . . .

[JJA]

As I've stated many times, no, I don't think an instructor needs to have a high level swing in order to teach. I see little value added especially at lower levels, say through high school. I do swing a bat for my own purposes, but I really don't see it adding or detracting from what or how I teach.

On the other hand, coaching higher levels (college and professional) I do believe having experience at those levels is of very significant value. To play at those levels presumably you need to have a relatively high level swing (though I know some minor leaguers with awful swings), but more importantly the experience of playing at those levels is undoubtedly very valuable to have in order to teach college players and professionals. At those levels, swing mechanics are less of an issue and the mental game becomes more important than it is for the young player. Still, even at that level if I had to err on someone who knew the swing but had a less proficient swing and less experience than another coach who didn't know the swing but played in the big leagues for 10 years, I would take the guy knowing the swing 100% of the time.

It's somewhat analogous to math teaching. You don't need a Ph.D. in math to teach addition and subtraction, though in some ways it might be useful, but teaching differential geometry at Caltech almost certainly does.

-JJA

[korp]

As long as they know what to look for and how to communicate it then its fine. Most of the people who are really good and doing the action can't teach it anyways.

[Chris O'Leary]

On the other hand, coaching higher levels (college and professional) I do believe having experience at those levels is of very significant value.

This is true because at the higher levels the issues tend to be less mechanical and more mental and/or approach related. Having been in the box at a high level can help with that.

[skipper5]

IMO responses to this thread would be optimally instructive (Baseball 101) if they related to teaching the swing to kids and teenagers.

[RKKay]

IMO, the answer to this question lies greatly within the student and partially within the instructor. At a young age, the student's ability to visualize and conceptualize is very limited, and the instructor's job is to demonstrate the proper technique, whether it is through his/her demonstration or physically manipulating the student's swing. As the student gets older, and can more effectively conceptualize and visualize, the instructor has less of a need to physically demonstrate the proper swing or manipulate the student's swing. He/she can get the point across with abstract discussions. Moreover, the instructor's need to physically demonstrate is minimized if he/she has access to video clips of swings that get the point across properly. I would much rather have my son will get a video of someone like George Brett swinging the bat and explain the finer points of his swing by analyzing the video rather than attempting to get the point across with my own deteriorating body.

[Cannonball]

I've had 8 knee surgeries with 4 on each knee. I can hardly walk on some days. So, I guess I'd better stop coaching.

[RKKay]

I've had 8 knee surgeries with 4 on each knee. I can hardly walk on some days. So, I guess I'd better stop coaching.

Time for the glue factory.

[1chapterahead]

This keeps coming up - and opinions seem to vary on this topic as much as they do on hitting.

While I agree that using the swing (and fielding, stealing, throwing, etc.) all need to be demonstrated by the coach in order to teach properly, I do not believe the coach needs to be as proficient at each skill as we hope are students will be.

Many factors come to mind...

1. Few coaches have ever achieved a high level ability to swing a bat. Most are ex youth or HS players
2. As we age our body's become more and more incapable. Muscles, bones, tendons, etc., just don't perform the way they used to.
3. What we did - may NOT be what we teach.

This does not mean we can not demonstrate elements of the swing well, but to feel a coach needs to swing a bat proficiently is not reasonable. One only needs to watch a MLB hitting coach in a cage trying to hit the same pitches as his players. Very few can....

You forced me to do side:side of me and the boy. It's clear who the talent is.

[Chris O'Leary]

I would much rather have my son will get a video of someone like George Brett swinging the bat and explain the finer points of his swing by analyzing the video rather than attempting to get the point across with my own deteriorating body.

The thing is that you're going to learn a lot more about how George Brett actually swings the bat by watching him actually swing the bat rather than hearing him talk about how he (thinks he) swings the bat.

The same is unfortunately true for...

- Don Mattingly
- Tony Gwynn

...and many others.

[skipper5]

Yes, Chris, teach what MLB'ers' do, not what they say. Got it.

Addressing the OP from the standpoint of credibility:

As kids become teenagers, an instructor's credibility increases in importance.
Teenagers being asked to change their swing have to buy into the cred. of the instructor or coach.

The credibility can come from one or more of the following:
--playing history (played HS, played coll)
--position of authority (eg, MS coach, HS coach, instructor at batting acad.)
--word-of-mouth reputation from prev. students
--your own ability to demonstrate a fluid, "good" swing (dry/tee/BP)
--if you're old and deteriorated, the kids might let you off the hook if you still can demonstrate individual "elements" of a fluid, good swing.

In the absence of the any of the above, I would have tuned out an adult trying to monkey w/ my swing.

[omg]

Does one need to be able to swing the bat well in order to teach hitting?

No, it's unrealistic that we old fogies will always be able to demonstrate. Hopefully, our alternative tools of explanation, video, drills, etc. make up for our inability to use the very valuable tool of demonstration.

Does one need to have been a good hitter at one time in order to teach hitting?

No, but it's obviously a great perspective to have not that it can't be overcome.

Does one need to have been a good catcher in order to teach catching?

Hmm, this should hit home as there are only a few coaches, relatively speaking, who have played a lot at catcher. What many coaches do is they teach some basics but they find somebody, an assistant coach, a clinician, or ex-player to help a player with this specialized skill.

[ssarge]

What kind of tour career did the best golf instructors have?

Is Jack Grout a familiar name to most golf fans? Didn't play. He did OK for Nicklaus, though. His lifelong swing coach.

Hank Haney didn't play tour golf. Tiger's doing OK, though, right? Along with the other 200 tour pros Haney has instructed (BTW, he graduated from Tulsa as an education major).

Before Haney, Tiger used Butch Harmon. He works with Phil and a bunch of other tour guys as well. Now, Harmon DID play pro golf for 2 years, and won the Broome County Open. Not exactly a household name.


It is wonderful to be able to draw on a lifetime of experience. Better to have it than not, IMO. This does not exclude those who don't have it, though. In my mind, far better to have a passion for instruction, a skill set for it, and experience at it, than it is to merely have playing experience. Having both would be great, but it is exceedingly rare. Unless you are talking about HS level experience. Most of us probably have that. I just don't think THAT kind of experience matters much.

Regards,

Scott

[Jake Patterson]

On the other hand, coaching higher levels (college and professional) I do believe having experience at those levels is of very significant value.

Why??

[BoardMember]

You forced me to do side:side of me and the boy. It's clear who the talent is.

Well at least he got the brains.........

OK OK....I'm kiddin........

[BoardMember]

What kind of tour career did the best golf instructors have?

Is Jack Grout a familiar name to most golf fans? Didn't play. He did OK for Nicklaus, though. His lifelong swing coach.

Hank Haney didn't play tour golf. Tiger's doing OK, though, right? Along with the other 200 tour pros Haney has instructed (BTW, he graduated from Tulsa as an education major).

Before Haney, Tiger used Butch Harmon. He works with Phil and a bunch of other tour guys as well. Now, Harmon DID play pro golf for 2 years, and won the Broome County Open. Not exactly a household name.


It is wonderful to be able to draw on a lifetime of experience. Better to have it than not, IMO. This does not exclude those who don't have it, though. In my mind, far better to have a passion for instruction, a skill set for it, and experience at it, than it is to merely have playing experience. Having both would be great, but it is exceedingly rare. Unless you are talking about HS level experience. Most of us probably have that. I just don't think THAT kind of experience matters much.

Regards,

Scott

Sure.......give anyone Woods or Nicholas.......Thats a no brainer......

But when Haney tried to fix Barkley........That was another story.......

[1chapterahead]

Well at least he got the brains.........

OK OK....I'm kiddin........

That's cold blooded... You just threw an 11yo under the bus... Man!

[Berkman#17]

Why??

Why not?..

[BoardMember]

That's cold blooded... You just threw an 11yo under the bus... Man!

10 bucks says he swings better then you even if he's in a body cast........

[1chapterahead]

10 bucks says he swings better then you even if he's in a body cast........

That may be the easiest $10 you'll ever make.

[ssarge]

But when Haney tried to fix Barkley........That was another story.......

Yeah, that wasn't so good. But I'm not sure I'd blame THAT swing on ANYBODY.

And you're right about Woods and Nicklaus, too. Worth considering who THEY CHOSE as instructors, though, which is my point.

Best,

Scott

[dominik]

In germany a golf coach must have a certain handicap(I think 0) to get a license.

[ssarge]

In germany a golf coach must have a certain handicap(I think 0) to get a license.

Well, anyone can be a teaching pro anywhere, I would think. To be a PGA certified teaching pro - or the equivalent in other countries - is a different matter obviously.

In America, I think you have to be a 5 to get that certification.

Which is a pretty good golfer, for sure. Of course, Tiger is like a +12.5, so a 5 handicap would get a stroke a hole from Tiger.