Why Not Start with the Bat in the Swing Plane?

[Chris O'Leary]

Here's a question I've been mulling over for a while.

Why not set up with the bat in the swing plan, rather than vertical and up out of the swing plane?

You could argue that starting with the bat more in the swing plane (in or parallel to the same plane as the front arm) will make your swing shorter and simpler, especially for a kid.

What is said or assumed to be gained by starting with a vertical, or more vertical, bat versus what is lost?

You could argue that it's easier for a kid to hold a bat vertically rather than more horizontally (and thus more in the swing plane). You could also make an argument for greater potential energy with a vertical bat.

Is there any explicit logic for starting with a vertical bat or is it just what everyone's always done?

The reason I ask is that I've been going through my footage of the Twins and many of their hitters, and especially their better ones, seem to set up with their bats already in the swing plane, which suggests that they are being taught to do that or have decided to do that.

Here's Joe Mauer...



Here's Justin Morneau...

[Hargrave]

A great idea.

Problem is, you are about 25 years behind Ferroli and a dozen behind Epstein, who copied Ferroli.

And they were, what, about 75 years behind the Dead Ball Era, when flat bats were common.

Explore the topic in your next DVD series. Aren't they free for life if you bought the first one?

[Harley]

My son uses the Epstein method and he has a nice short stroke that starts already on the plane of the pitch. He had the least number of strike outs of any player on his team.

[Chris O'Leary]

Explore the topic in your next DVD series. Aren't they free for life if you bought the first one?

Why not add some value next time?

[JJA]

Chris,

As you also know, Lau Jr insists on this for young players for precisely the reasons you state.

[Redsfan1]

My son uses the Epstein method and he has a nice short stroke that starts already on the plane of the pitch. He had the least number of strike outs of any player on his team.

Harley, I am glad you chimed in. I am exploring the best time to put my nine year with an Epstein instructor, and I was wondering how you went about it. Did you just watch the dvd or have him go through the seven day program? Also, is he using a stride or not? Any other recommendations you can offer will be much appreciated. I am still probably a year away but plan on getting the dvd for some pre study. Thanks

[BoardMember]

Chris......Why must your clip be riddled with 1.5 and 3 second delays........It does NOT take 3 seconds for most of our brains to process positions and planes in a gif file.......

They are AGONIZINGLY SLOW.........for NO reason.........

Please try for something like this from now on.........

Here's a question I've been mulling over for a while.

Why not set up with the bat in the swing plan, rather than vertical and up out of the swing plane?

You could argue that starting with the bat more in the swing plane (in or parallel to the same plane as the front arm) will make your swing shorter and simpler, especially for a kid.

What is said or assumed to be gained by starting with a vertical, or more vertical, bat versus what is lost?

You could argue that it's easier for a kid to hold a bat vertically rather than more horizontally and thus more in the swing plane). You could also make an argument for greater potential energy with a vertical bat.

Is there any explicit logic for starting with a vertical bat or is it just what everyone's always done?

The reason I ask is that I've been going through my footage of the Twins and many of their hitters, and especially their better ones, seem to set up with their bats already in the swing plane, which suggests that they are being taught to do that or have decided to do that.

[cbb]

Yeager has covered this quite thoroughly.

[FiveFrameSwing]

Yeager has covered this quite thoroughly.

Yes, I seem to recall Yeager describing the two-plane swing as giving the bat barrel added 'life'.

It's one of those things ... that if you pick up a bat and run some experiments with, you'll gain an appreciation for why folks use a 2-plane swing.

The topic was covered in significant depth here in the past ... including the benefits of barrel momentum and plate coverage.

Below is a somewhat dated post from Donny. I can't help but read his closing remarks about a missed opportunity and not think about how helpful he was to so many people.

If you get something from his post ... then great. If not ... that's okay too.


Buster:

Woggy,

The solution is NOT intuitive. I have SCREWED KIDS UP BEFORE by not letting do what was natural....there I said it. I have been wrong a lot...I said it again.

The little boy swing where you just put the bat back there and turn will not get you there and the problems you are describing are precisely what will happen with the flat barrel

Between the elbow and hands are two bones...the radius and ulna. There are two bones there for a reason ...to twist the wrist..prontate( turn palm down) and supinate( hold soup; not the real meaning but helps to remember) turn palm up

Hold the lead palm open and against your right pect muscle and your lead elbow against your rib cage. Your radius and ulna are stacked vertical....your thumb is up and little finger down.

Now like martial arts...step, turn the hips, and karate chop by jutting your lead elbow up and rotating the palm to FLAT. Feel that natural lead arm action. What if you just start the lead elbow up there 45 from the body and start the palm flat and do the same move? Not as powerful and as describes above you are blocking out the late scap load of the rear elbow( that cannot be taught and is a total waste if not in sequence like throwing).

Now consider the barrel action as an extension of the palm action from vertical to flat. Look how far the barrel must move compared to the palm rotation. Do a few one hand swings with a very light bat. Now tuck the lead shoulder , bring the lead elbow down and in until the bat goes past vertical and step/ rotate the hips, and move the lead elbow up and pronate the lead palm.

OMG..... There is NO comparison. My son hit that soft toss 335. He cannot begin to do that the other way.

We do NOT want the shoulders loading at the same time the hips coil. THATS RIGHT. The hips coils as the barrel goes out of plane ( by barrel tipping) preventing SHOULDER loading. The shoulders load as the bat comes back into plane( rear elbow up and over) AS THE HIPS OPEN. That is the overlap you MUST HAVE to hit it far. He must start to do this.

Extension through the ball is an indicator point but not a teach. Where is the end of a whip when you pop it. Hell I don't know...it is moving too fast. He is pulling the barrel around his body now as fast as he will ever do it. Practicing pulling the barrel from the lead shoulder around the body more will gain you 2 MPH bat speed over the next three years. Not what you want. You want a segmented whip. Tip the barrel to oppo gap as you coil the hips/ stride, and hit the inside seam off the tee and he will start to feel it. Keep the barrel outside the helmet until about 4 inches from toe touch. Do it 20 swings and get on the inside seam with weight shift. He will figure out more in 30 minutes than you can teach in 30 years

If I did not care about you I would not have spent 40 minutes writing this. When I watch my son hit now vs then I know what I missed during his HS time. An opportunity is a terrible thing to waste. I was following Nyman and holding the rear elbow around the corner......bad mistake

[BoardMember]

Chris.......Until you figure out ALL of the reasons Bonds does this you won't possibly understand.........

[songtitle]

Vertical bat is free bat speed.

will make your swing shorter and simpler

Why is that the goal? How about "as powerful as possible and still hit the ball frequently"?

[Slapper23]

Chris,

Both the guys you posted do tip the bat and have bottom hand under top - What do you mean exactly by "starting in the swing plane?" I don't see it unless I totally misunderstand what you're saying. The angle of both clips are also deceiving - looked at from directly across the batter's box would show them tipping the bat even more.

Mike

[Harley]

Harley, I am glad you chimed in. I am exploring the best time to put my nine year with an Epstein instructor, and I was wondering how you went about it. Did you just watch the dvd or have him go through the seven day program? Also, is he using a stride or not? Any other recommendations you can offer will be much appreciated. I am still probably a year away but plan on getting the dvd for some pre study. Thanks

I purchased both the CD and the DVD and suffered through all the boring parts to get to his drills that turned my son from a ground ball hitter into a line drive hitter. IMHO, just go directly to Part 2 of his DVD and start doing the drills in the Winter time in front of a mirror. By the time the first spring game starts, you should have enough muscle memory created for your son to hit line drives.

Mike promotes a wide stance with little or no stride. The idea here is to have a quick swing with no wasted movement. My son has no stride. He lifts his foot and while he is putting it back down, he turns his hips toward the pitcher and swings the bat which starts horizontal and has a slight up swing.

He hits best against really fast accurate pitchers. He has the hardest time against slow inaccurate pitchers because my son swings at everything. Our goal for this year is to work on plate discipline.

[GetYourBestSwing]

Twins players are NOT taught anything along these lines in their minor league system or at the big league level.

Mauer has had the exact same basic mechanics since High School. I saw him play a few times.


I also have a former "client"- as you like to call them - playing in the Twins organization. 8th round draft pick. Played in Beloit this last season.

I have talked to him MANY times and tried to pick his brain on what they were teaching him.

It was all about his approach, productive outs. Very very little mechanically.

His swing is comparable to a RH Lance Berkman.



I've seen you suggest this a few times with the Twins organization.

It isn't what they do. I managed Terry Ryan's son- got to sit down and talk to Terry Ryan while he was scouting this summer. I asked him their organizational philosophy and also how much mechanically a guy might change when he gets to the big club- what you are suggesting isn't the case.

I see what you are saying with a couple hitters- maybe why the assumption was made- but it's not the case.


P.S. - This is not meant as argumentative- just have seen you throw this out their a couple times, so wanted to give you the scoop.

[Encinitas]

Chris we've seen many of the HS swings of guys like Josh Hamilton, or David Wright. Two-planers back then too. I wouldn't expect MLB folks to be trying to change hitters mechanics.

FWIW, I have no problem with you teaching kids to keep the bat in relative 45 slot. Just realize that Mauer's top hand is pronated, or BHUT, just not splitting the helmet. Heck he might be doing that too I haven't looked. Just the same though I have no problem with people who teach kids to "load the barrel", if the kid can handle it why not?

[Ifubuildit]

Because when you do what the kid is more likely to do is counter rotate his shoulders and trap his hands behind his body. Then he goes from a 6 frame to a 10 frame swing with that little adjustment. And you wonder why all of a sudden little Johnny is now late in the zone.

Dana.

[RayR]

One thing I have noticed is that aside from counter rotation problems - many kids will drop the barrel early before the hands go forward.

Either way, I think it is a involuntary prepatory move by the hitter. Starting out of plane gives the hitter something to do - get on plane.

The amount of movement is individual.

[Chris O'Leary]

Both the guys you posted do tip the bat and have bottom hand under top - What do you mean exactly by "starting in the swing plane?" I don't see it unless I totally misunderstand what you're saying. The angle of both clips are also deceiving - looked at from directly across the batter's box would show them tipping the bat even more.

Neither one tips the bat or gets the bat vertical.

[Chris O'Leary]

Twins players are NOT taught anything along these lines in their minor league system or at the big league level...

P.S. - This is not meant as argumentative- just have seen you throw this out their a couple times, so wanted to give you the scoop.

Thanks.

Then this may just be simple emulation of Mauer, which would make sense.

[hitnpeas]

Neither one tips the bat or gets the bat vertical.

Maybe not out front, but what is Mauer doing in frames 15-17? Why do you think the bat head is going forward and what would you call that movement?

[Chris O'Leary]

Maybe not out front, but what is Mauer doing in frames 15-17? Why do you think the bat head is going forward and what would you call that movement?

I think that's just the result of his load. Notice how the hinge angle doesn't change after frame 15 or so.

Do you agree that the bat head is maybe 45 degrees off of vertical?

[Slapper23]

I think that's just the result of his load. Notice how the hinge angle doesn't change after frame 15 or so.

Do you agree that the bat head is maybe 45 degrees off of vertical?

Well no kidding it's a result of his load. Notice too how the hinge angle doesn't change in the clips of Pujols, Kent, and the young man.

Mike

[SLBaseballDad]

He has the hardest time against slow inaccurate pitchers because my son swings at everything. Our goal for this year is to work on plate discipline.

My son (14u playing 15u and 16u) was exactly the same way after being Epstein trained. Now he's got the highest number of BB's and number 4 or 5 in BA. He patiently waits for the right pitch for the situation. His swing doesn't look Epstein modelish anymore but the primary components are still there. I think the issue you mentioned with slower pitchers is one of maturity and experience. He'll get it.

[hitnpeas]

I think that's just the result of his load. Notice how the hinge angle doesn't change after frame 15 or so.

Do you agree that the bat head is maybe 45 degrees off of vertical?

It is around 45 degrees from vertical but what do you call that movement? You don't think it is a TIP? Why do you think he moves the bat head FORWARD instead of leaving it more vertical?

[Chris O'Leary]

It is around 45 degrees from vertical. Why do you think he moves the bat head FORWARD instead of leaving it vertical?

The bat head moves because of what he's doing during his load, which includes scap loading and reverse-rotation of the shoulders to help create separation.