View Poll Results: 5th Greatest Negro L Player
- 20. You may not vote on this poll
Cool Papa Bell
Louis 'Santop' Loftin
other, please explain
5th Greatest Negro L Player
Congratulations to Turkey Stearns, for winning our 4th Greatest Negro L. Player! He won 6 of our 15 votes (40%). Turkey beat out Cool Papa Bell, who scored 4 votes (27%). Biz Mackey, Christobal Torrienti, Buck Leonard and Martin Dihigo also received votes.
Round 5 for our Greatest Negro L. Player series is now open! Let the Games Begin!
1. Josh Gibson
2. Oscar Charleston
3. John Lloyd
4. Turkey Stearns
As per our usual, please consider everything. Counting totals, peak, longevity, special skills, etc. Thanks, guys.
We are now ONLY voting for the 5th Greatest Negro L. Player. Only vote for ONE PERSON.
Normally, we would close the poll after 10 days, but in this case, we will remain open until we get at least 15 voters.
C James "Biz" Mackay, Bruce Petway, Larry Brown, Frank Duncan, "Double Duty" Radcliffe, Louis "Santop" Loftin, Quincy Trouppe.
1B Buck Leonard, Ben Taylor
2B Elwood "Bingo" DeMoss
SS John Beckwith, Willie Wells,
3B Judy Johnson, Ray Dandridge, Oliver Marcell
LF Mule Suttles
CF "Cool Papa" Bell, Carlos Torriente, Spot Poles, Pete Hill, Martin Dihigo
RF Monte Irvin
Here are some background Reference Resources:
It might serve a purpose to see how many former members of the Negro Leagues have presently been enshrined.
1971 - Satchel Paige --------- Negro L. committee
1972 - Josh Gibson --------- Negro L. committe
1972 - Buck Leonard --------- Negro L. committee
1973 - Monte Irvin ---------- Negro L. committee
1974 - "Cool Papa" Bell -------- Negro L. committee
1975 - Judy Johnson -------- Negro L. committee
1976 - Oscar Charleston ------ Negro L. committee
1977 - Martin Dihigo -------- Negro L. committee
1977 - "Pop" Lloyd -------- Negro L. committee
1981 - Rube Foster - ---------Veterans committee
1987 - Ray Dandridge ---------- Veterans committee
1995 - Leon Day ----------- Veterans committee
1996 - Willie Foster ----------- Veterans committee
1997 - Willie Wells ------------ Veterans committee
1998 - Bullet Joe Rogan --------- Veterans committee
1999 - Smokey Joe Williams ------ Veterans committee
2000 - Turkey Stearns ----------- Veterans committee
2001 - Hilton Smith - -------------Veterans committee
2006 - Cumberland Willis "Cum" Posey-Special Election
2006 - Ben Taylor -------------------Special Election
2006 - George "Mule" Suttles---------Special Election
2006 - Raleigh Clarence "Biz" Mackay-Special Election
2006 - J. Preston "Pete" Hill--------Special Election
2006 - Cristobal "Carlos" Torrienti--Special Election
2006 - Louis "Santop" Loftin---------Special Election
2006 - Ray Brown---------------------Special Election
2006 - Jud Wilson--------------------Special Election
2006 - Jose Mendez-------------------Special Election
2006 - Alex Pompez-------------------Special Election
2006 - James (J.L.) Wilkinson--------Special Election
2006 - Willard Brown-----------------Special Election
2006 - Frank Grant-------------------Special Election
2006 - Andy Cooper-------------------Special Election
2006 - Sol White---------------------Special Election
2006 - Effa Manley-------------------Special Election
A. In 1952, the Pittsburgh Courier polled 31 Negro league players, writers, officials and managers and they
selected the following team:
A Team------------------------B Team
1B - Buck Leonard-----------1B - Ben Taylor
2B - Jackie Robinson---------2B - Bingo DeMoss
SS - John Henry Lloyd-------SS - Willie Wells
3B - Oliver Marcell-----------3B - Judy Johnson
LF - Monte Irvin-------------LF - Pete Hall
CF - Oscar Charleston-------CF - Cool Papa Bell
RF - Christobal Torriente----RF - Chino Smith
C - Josh Gibson / Biz Mackey-C - Campanella / Bruce Petway
P - Smokey Joe Williams------P - Dave Brown
P - Satchel Paige------------P - Cannonball Dick Redding
P - Bullet Joe Rogan---------P - Nip Winters
P - John Donaldson ----------P - Dizzy Dismukes
P - Willie Foster-------------P - Don Newcombe
Utility OF - Martin Dihigo---Utility 1B - John Beckwith
Utility IF - Martin Dihigo----Utility 1B - Newt Allen
Utility IF - Sam Banheart---Utility - Clint Thomas
Coaches - Dizzy Dismukes--coaches - C. I. Taylor
Coaches - Danny McClelland--coaches - Dave Malarcher
Manager = Rube Foster-------Manager - Cum Posey
The Pittsburgh Courier, a black newspaper, polled its fans in 1952. Their readers listed the following players into 5 teams:
First team: (1B) Buck Leonard, (2B) Jackie Robinson, (SS) Pop Lloyd, (3B) Oliver Marcelle, (OF) Monte Irvin, (OF) Oscar Charleston, (OF) Cristobel Torriente, (C) Josh Gibson, (C) Biz Mackey, (P) Joe Williams, (P) Satchel Paige, (P) Bullet Rogan, (P) John Dondaldson, (P) Bill Foster, (Utility) Martin Dihigo, (Utility) Sam Bankhead, (Mgr) Rube Foster, (Coach) Dizzy Dismukes, (Coach) Danny McClellan.
Second Team: (1B) Ben Taylor, (2B) Bingo DeMoss, (SS) Willie Wells, (3B) Judy Johnson, (OF) Pete Hill, (OF) Cool Papa Bell, (OF) Chino Smith, (C) Roy Campanella, (C) Bruce Petway, (P) Dave Brown, (P) Dick Redding, (P) Nip Winters, (P) Dizzy Dismukes, (P) Don Newcombe, (Utility) John Beckwith, (Utility) Newt Allen, (Mgr) Cum Posey, (Coach) C.I. Taylor, (Coach) Dave Malarcher.
Third Team: (1B) Jud Wilson, (2B) Bill Monroe, (SS) Dick Lundy, (3B) Jud Wilson, (OF) Rap Dixon, (OF) Larry Doby, (OF) Fats Jenkins, (C) Double Duty Radcliffe, (C) Louis Santop, (P) Slim Jones, (P) Bill Holland, (P) Phil Cockrell, (P) Webster McDonald, (P) Bill Byrd, (Utility) Emmett Bowman, (Utility) Dick Wallace, (Mgr) Ed Bolden.
Fourth Team: (1B) Ed Douglas, (2B) George Scales, (SS) Doby Moore, (3B) Ray Dandridge, (OF) Jimmy Lyons, (OF) Mule Suttles, (OF) Spotswood Poles, (C) Frank Duncan, (C) Bill Perkins, (P) Double Duty Radcliffe, (P) Frank Wickware, (P) Danny McClellan, (P) Leon Day, (P) Bill Jackman, (Utility) Rev Cannady, (Utility) Jose Mendez, (Mgr) Vic Harris.
Fifth Team: (1B) George Carr, (2B) Bunny Downs, (SS) Pelayo Chacon, (3B) Dave Malarcher, (OF) Frank Duncan, (OF) Turkey Stearnes, (OF) Jelly Gardner, (C) Doc Wiley, (C) Speck Webster, (P) Stringbean Williams, (P) Ray Brown, (P) Rats Henderson, (P) Luis Tiant, (P) Leroy Matlock.
Others receiving votes: (1B) Leroy Grant, Mule Suttles; (2B) Nate Harris, Sammy T. Hughes, Frank Warfield, Ray Dandridge, George Wright, Harry Williams; (SS) Gerard Williams, Bobby Williams, Morton Clark; (3B) Bill Francis, Jim Taylor; (OF) Minnie Minoso, Jap Payne, Blaine Hall, Ted Strong, Ted Page, Vic Harris; (P) Jose Mendez, Laymon Yokely.
*Some players that weren't listed but could have been: (1B) Buck O'Neil, Red Moore, Steel Arm Davis, George Giles; (2B) Bonnie Serrell; (SS) Jake Stephens; (3B) Alec Radcliffe, Bobby Robinson; (OF) Jumbo Kimbro, Willard Brown, Bill Wright, Neil Robinson, Ducky Davenport; (C) Quincy Trouppe, Larry Brown, Buck Ewing, Pops Coleman; (P) Chet Brewer, Hilton Smith, Barney Brown, Ted Trent, Max Manning, Sug Cornelius, Harry Salmon, Barney Morris; (Mgr) Buck O'Neil, Double Duty Radcliffe, Quincy Trouppe.
In my attempt to be useful, I'd like to contribute these profiles, generously provided to us by Jim Albright. May these assist others in the Fever Hall of Fame, our endless polls/surveys.
Jim has kindly provided these additional Negro League reference resources for our benefit, to guide our selections.
Negro L. data
An undisciplined, mean, and short-tempered player, Beckwith stands with Josh Gibson as the two greatest right-handed batters to play in the Negro Leagues. A dangerous slugger, he crushed mammoth home runs and gathered hits by the bundle. Beckwith began with Frank Leland's Chicago Giants from 1916-23, when his dead-pull hitting led opponents to shift their defense to the left side of the field. Beckwith played with numerous teams in subsequent years, his malignant personality undoubtedly contributing to his short stay in many cases. A defensive liability as well, Beckwith's value as a hitter ranks him among the greatest right-handed hitters of any color, during any era.
C.I. Taylor famously said, "If I should see Torriente walking up the other side of the street, I would say, 'There walks a ballclub.' " Torriente was one of the finest outfielders in Negro League history, and one of the best overall players. A premiere slugger before home-run hitting took off, Torriente scorched line drives to all fields. Thickly built but light afoot, he was one of the finest defensive center fielders ever. Torriente starred with the Chicago American Giants from 1918-25 when the team was consistently among the best in baseball. A moody and sometimes difficult player, he left the American Giants amidst controversy and spent his final years shuttling between teams. One of the greatest Cuban-born players, Torriente was an inaugural member of the Cuban Hall of Fame.
This outfielder began his long association with black baseball in 1899 and starred for the powerhouse Leland Giants and the Chicago American Giants. While existing statistics do not support the claims, many of his contemporaries considered him perhaps the finest hitter, and certainly the finest clutch hitter, of his era. A popular player who served as the team captain with the American Giants, Hill boasted solid defense, tremendous footspeed, and proficiency at the "inside baseball" style of play championed by his manager.
Nicknamed "Home Run" for his timely-if-infrequent blasts, this middle infielder helped form the Page Fence Giants in 1895 and was still playing nearly 30 years latter. Johnson was a leading hitter and a frequent captain for some of the best teams in the Negro Leagues, including the Brooklyn Royal Giants of the mid-to-late 1900s, the 1910 Leland Giants, and the great New York Lincoln Giants of the early 1910s. A good-natured, paternalistic team player, "Home Run" Johnson was one of the best players of his era.
John Henry Lloyd
The Negro Leagues produced a wealth of fine all-around shortstops, strong hitters and fielders both, but none rivaled John Henry Lloyd. "Pop" was the best Negro League player before the Negro National League in 1920. A star defensively who could play any infield position, Lloyd was also a marvelous base runner, a talented and patient hitter, and among the best at applying the "inside baseball" strategies favored in Negro League play. Expert at manufacturing a run, Lloyd competed for more than 10 teams during his storied career, playing for the owner willing to pay him the most. A man of strong moral fiber and particularly wonderful temperament, Pop Lloyd was one of the greatest three position players to play in the Negro Leagues.
Monroe was the greatest Negro Leaguer of the first decade of the century. Possessing a flare for the dramatic and superior talent, Monroe was particularly valuable in the field, where he flashed great range and avoided costly errors while delighting the fans with his showboating on the easier plays. He was a good contact hitter, on base regularly, with tremendous speed. He started with the Chicago Unions in 1896 and went on to contribute to the success of many of the finest teams of his era: The three-time champion Philadelphia Giants and the Brooklyn Royal Giants of 1907-10, before winding down his career with Rube Foster's first capable Chicago American Giants teams through the mid-1910s. Handsome and popular, Monroe stands with John Henry Lloyd as the finest Negro League players of their generation.
An intelligent student of the game, "Buddy" possessed numerous skills not typical in the men who have donned the "tools of ignorance" over the years. A switch-hitter, Petway was an excellent bunter, a contact hitter who protected runners well and a frequent threat to steal a base. He had a patient batting eye. However, his greatest strength was his legendary throwing arm. He was best remembered for throwing out Ty Cobb three times in a 1910 Cuban set of games. He spent eight seasons in his prime with the early Chicago American Giants, and seven with the Detroit Stars as a player-manager.
The most prolific leadoff hitter of the early days, Poles was a superior defensive outfielder who hit for high averages, had a sharp batting eye, and ran the bases with singular speed that helped him pilfer many bases and score a lot of runs. Poles spent most of his career with the New York Lincoln Giants, enjoying two extended stints between 1911-23. A World War I hero who was a coach for many years after his playing years, Poles was an intense competitor and an impressive physical specimen and athlete.
Called "Double Duty" for his dual role as starting pitcher and top catcher, Radcliffe is a unique figure in the annals of baseball history. No other pitcher at a Major League level has spent virtually his entire career as a full-time player on his off-days, let alone as a catcher, easily the most demanding position on the diamond. Of course, we can just as easily look at it the opposite way and observe that no starting player, never mind a catcher, has also taken a regular turn in solid pitching rotations for most of a career that spanned past the end of the color line. A superior catcher and solid pitcher, "Duty" played in numerous All-Star contests, as both catcher and a pitcher. He had a steady throwing arm, was quick defensively, and was a solid batter. As a pitcher he enjoyed throwing a variety of illegal pitches to confound the opposition. A ballplayer who always gravitated toward the fattest paycheck, Radcliffe never spent more than two successive seasons with the same team until the very end of his career, retiring as a unique competitor in the rich history of our national pastime.
The "oldest" ballplayer in this set, Stovey was among the black ballplayers competing in the white minor leagues when the color line was put into place in 1887. In fact, Stovey is the pitcher who touched off Cap Anson's well-documented refusal to play the Newark club in 1887. A marvelous hurler who reportedly was considered for signing by Major League clubs, the left-hander pitched for the original Cuban Giants teams. Stovey's statistical accomplishments may have been marred by racial prejudices and the record keeping of the time, but he remains one of the most important baseball players of the 19th Century.
A star hitter on the solid early entries of the Indianapolis ABC's, Taylor stands as the finest all-around first baseman in the first 40 years of black baseball. He was nimble around the sack and hit to all fields, both able to knock home important runs and protect or advance the baserunner if necessary. Beginning in 1910, Taylor played, managed and coached numerous clubs. In the early years he played for powerhouses like the New York Lincoln Giants and Chicago American Giants. Taylor was a member of the largest ballplaying family in the Negro Leagues.
A fireballing right hander, Wickware spent the better part of 10 seasons between the Leland Giants and Chicago American Giants during his 14-year career. He was among the best hurlers in the 1910s, but Wickware's freewheeling lifestyle, lackadaisical attitude, and uneven demeanor made him a handful for his various managers and contributed as much to his early decline as much as any erosion of talent.
Coming in March: Josh Gibson and the mighty Homestead Grays.
Last edited by Bill Burgess; 10-23-2011 at 03:04 PM.
If your choice does not appear on the ballot, please ask to have him added. We aim to please.
My explanation, and please forgive me from copying and pasting this from another thread:
I have Willie Wells as the #4 Hitter in Negro Leagues History, after Charleston, Gibson and Stearnes and might argue that Willie Wells is the #4 overall Negro Leagues non-pitcher behind only Charleston, Gibson & Lloyd (and he might've been better than Lloyd overall). Well's hit for power at SS long before anyone else did. Played incredible defense, hit .328 in his career and stole a bunch of bases. I see Wells as somewhat a combination of Willie Mays' hitting combined with Ozzie Smith's defense!
If you adjust out Wells' stats to 154 games, his seasons look like this:
1926: 23 HR's, 10 triples, 34 doubles, 10 SB's, .328 BA
1927: 40 HR's, 3 triples, 38 doubles, 8 SB's, .339 BA
1928: 42 HR's, 11 triples, 51 doubles, 26 SB's .365 BA
1929: 44 HR's, 16 triples, 30 doubles, 41 SB's, .356 BA
1930: 33 HR's, 3 triples, 59 doubles, 23 SB's, .420 BA
That is a heckuva peak, all while playing what is described as the best defense at shortstop ever. I have Wells ranked ahead of Honus Wagner for the best SS of All-Time
Pop Lloyd for me, he strikes me as the Wagner amongst pre-integration black players.
Pop Lloyd was already elected 3rd. You need to vote for someone who is not elected yet.
We have a very nice Form Chart in post #2.