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Thread: McGwire confesses

  1. #241
    Quote Originally Posted by Bulldog19 View Post
    Baseball is entertainment. Plain and simple-- Major League Baseball exists to make money for the ownership and to entertain the fans.
    Don't all business exist to make money for their owners and some sort of service for their clients/customers?

    So those making a living at it don't matter? Chattel is chattel?
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  2. #242
    Quote Originally Posted by White Knight View Post
    How many do you think a clean and healthy Mac would have hit in 1998? Remember, he learned a lot from when he first came up.
    Another question would be - How many homeruns would Maris have hit in 1961 if he had to bat against pitchers that were on steroids?

  3. #243
    You know damn well all three would have injected if it were available.
    I suppose the lesson here is this: everyone is corruptible. No one adheres to principles or ethics in the world. We are all miserable cynics, given to selling out at the first opportunity.

    The steroid apologists well and truly run the gamut with bizarre interpretations of the human condition, and indeed, reality.

    Some say, "It's their body, they do no harm to you and me." Never mind that impressionable young people will get the idea that PED's are harmless.

    Others say, "Of course they used, and so would you." Never mind the fact that there are plenty of people out there who actually live according to a higher standard.

    Still others say, "If people want to take the risk, that's on them. I just want to watch good baseball." In other words, my entertainment takes precedence over everything, including the well-being of my fellow man.

    Nice world we live in.

  4. #244
    Quote Originally Posted by John Shoemaker View Post
    Another question would be - How many homeruns would Maris have hit in 1961 if he had to bat against pitchers that were on steroids?
    Or pitchers with surgically repaired and strengthened arms.

  5. #245
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    Quote Originally Posted by Pete Rose Rounding Third View Post
    I suppose the lesson here is this: everyone is corruptible. No one adheres to principles or ethics in the world. We are all miserable cynics, given to selling out at the first opportunity.
    Everyone is capable of corruption, but the same is true about making the correct choice.

    The steroid apologists well and truly run the gamut with bizarre interpretations of the human condition, and indeed, reality.

    Some say, "It's their body, they do no harm to you and me." Never mind that impressionable young people will get the idea that PED's are harmless.

    Others say, "Of course they used, and so would you." Never mind the fact that there are plenty of people out there who actually live according to a higher standard.
    Barry Larkin said he played in the era and never took steroids because he knew they were cheating. The same could be said of a lot of people that played in the era.

    Still others say, "If people want to take the risk, that's on them. I just want to watch good baseball." In other words, my entertainment takes precedence over everything, including the well-being of my fellow man.

    Nice world we live in.
    I'm not in favor of a small part of the population being able to violate federal drug laws just so I can enjoy watching more home runs. That's not right.
    RIP Ronnie James Dio (July 10, 1942 - May 16, 2010).

  6. #246
    Quote Originally Posted by White Knight View Post
    If chewing gum is banned in classrooms, but the teachers look the other way and don't care, do you blame the kids for chewing in class? It's the same thing here. Stop blaming the players when no one cared before 2003.

    Keep defending Ruth, Mantle and Marris too. You know damn well all three would have injected if it were available.
    A better example would be "chewing gum laced with crack cocaine". Not that there is any legitimacy to your analogy because MLB ballplayers are adults who knowingly possessed and took illegal drugs.

    And thats the closest to lawyer talk I'll come to. To the rest of the Lawyers here these players are not, and never will be, in the court of Law for steroids. Even Bonds isn't. He's charged with Lieing to a Grand Jury. But they are in the court of public opinion and this affects their HOF future, and even their baseball future. MLB doesn't have to justify banning a player permanent from the game in a court of Law.

    Thats why our muscular little friend from Missouri finally spilt his guts. He wants back in the game as a coach, "the rich need hobbies", and as a general photograph/autograph King. the rich dont like losing the adoration of the unwashed masses. Plain and simple? Mark is bored.

    Better to leak a bit of truth now then to have it Land on top of your head, in humiliation, once you've established yourself as a MLB coach. He, and his spin doctor, knows by April it could be an old story that people are tired of hearing about.

    Which is far better then April coming around and the people having a new story they all want to hear about.
    "Let me start by telling you this: I have never used steroids. Period. I don't know how to say it any more clearly than that. Never."

  7. #247
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    Quote Originally Posted by White Knight View Post
    If chewing gum is banned in classrooms, but the teachers look the other way and don't care, do you blame the kids for chewing in class?
    Yes. Just because you can get away with something, that doesn't make it okay. That's not to say I wouldn't also blame the teachers (I would), but blame need not be unilateral. I can blame both the kids for breaking the rule and the teacher for not enforcing it.

    We could discuss a moral imperative for breaking a rule/law, but I don't think "I want to be a better ball player" (or "I want to chew gum") has much moral weight.

    How many do you think a clean and healthy Mac would have hit in 1998? Remember, he learned a lot from when he first came up.
    How many would the Captain America, Doc Savage or the Spirit have hit in '98? We'll never know because none of them exist. All we know about a clean and healthy McGwire (1987-1991) is that he could hit between 49 and 22 home runs a season, at a rate of about 1 HR per 15 AB. Now, 1992 did show a promising HR/AB ratio (11.1), but it also marked the end of the combination of clean and healthy McGwire (139 games). From that year on he was, by his own admission, either clean (1992-1993) or healthy (1997-1999), or neither (1994-1996, 2000-2001), but never both.

    Even if steroids don't add a single mph of bat speed or foot of distance, they have a documented effect on endurance and recovery. That is why McGwire says he took them. He can assert that, without steroids, he could have hit something like his 70 home runs in 155 games in 1998. I assert that, without steroids, he couldn't have played in 155 games and wouldn't have had the number of AB to come close to breaking the HR record.

  8. #248
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    Quote Originally Posted by Scoops View Post

    Even if steroids don't add a single mph of bat speed or foot of distance, they have a documented effect on endurance and recovery. That is why McGwire says he took them. He can assert that, without steroids, he could have hit something like his 70 home runs in 155 games in 1998. I assert that, without steroids, he couldn't have played in 155 games and wouldn't have had the number of AB to come close to breaking the HR record.
    Is that really cheating to want to be able to play in 155 games? If someone like Cal Ripken can do it naturally and Mac can't, that's what's truly unfair. Nothing wrong with wanting to heal your injuries so you can play.
    Lou Gehrig is the Truest Yankee of them all!

  9. #249
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    Quote Originally Posted by White Knight View Post
    Is that really cheating to want to be able to play in 155 games? If someone like Cal Ripken can do it naturally and Mac can't, that's what's truly unfair. Nothing wrong with wanting to heal your injuries so you can play.
    Life is unfair. That's an unfortunate reality we learn growing up. Unfairness in life does not excuse breaking federal law.
    RIP Ronnie James Dio (July 10, 1942 - May 16, 2010).

  10. #250
    Quote Originally Posted by Ace Venom View Post
    Life is unfair. That's an unfortunate reality we learn growing up. Unfairness in life does not excuse breaking federal law.
    Just like Mays did by taking Greenies so he could play in more games???

  11. #251
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ace Venom View Post
    Life is unfair. That's an unfortunate reality we learn growing up. Unfairness in life does not excuse breaking federal law.
    Which is a federal matter and not a baseball matter. Plus the Feds did know about Mark's drug usage and they chose to do nothing. I think that says something. Pretty much everybody in a position of responsibility was aware that Mark McGwire was taking steroids and they all did nothing.

  12. #252
    Quote Originally Posted by Ubiquitous View Post
    Which is a federal matter and not a baseball matter. Plus the Feds did know about Mark's drug usage and they chose to do nothing. I think that says something. Pretty much everybody in a position of responsibility was aware that Mark McGwire was taking steroids and they all did nothing.
    Thats all that matters, for all users.

  13. #253
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ubiquitous View Post
    Which is a federal matter and not a baseball matter. Plus the Feds did know about Mark's drug usage and they chose to do nothing. I think that says something. Pretty much everybody in a position of responsibility was aware that Mark McGwire was taking steroids and they all did nothing.
    First off, Major League Baseball operates in the United States of America and is thus a subject of its laws. Secondly, does the lack of action against Mark McGwire excuse him? That investigation was aimed at prosecuting the drug pushers and not the drug users. Just because Bud Selig is wishy washy and wouldn't ban users then doesn't excuse him at all. Vincent would have wasted no time banning them.
    Last edited by Ace Venom; 01-14-2010 at 12:56 PM.
    RIP Ronnie James Dio (July 10, 1942 - May 16, 2010).

  14. #254
    Quote Originally Posted by White Knight View Post
    How many do you think a clean and healthy Mac would have hit in 1998? Remember, he learned a lot from when he first came up.
    Early in his career 24 year-old Lou Gehrig hit 47 Hrs in one season. Safe to say he also learned a lot as his career progressed. His highest season total would reach 49 even at an older age.

    As a rookie Frank Robinson hit 38 HRs. At 23 (same age as McGwire was during his rookie season) Robinson hit 36 HRs. Safe to say that as his career progressed he too learned a lot. He also would peak at 49 in perhaps his greatest season at 31 years-old.

    Oh I forgot! Admitted steroid user McGwire, even using during the year he hit 70, is the greatest HR hitter of all-time. Not only was he naturally a greater HR hitter but he must have learned a whole lot more, maybe even been smarter and a naturally better hitter then Triple Crown winners Gehrig and Robinson. Couldn't have been helped by steroids, he was just great. Why was I too dumb to see that!

  15. #255
    Quote Originally Posted by Ace Venom View Post
    First off, Major League Baseball operates in the United States of America and is thus a subject of its laws. Secondly, does the lack of action against Mark McGwire excuse him? That investigation was aimed at prosecuting the drug pushers and not the drug users. Just because Bud Selig is wishy washy and wouldn't ban users then doesn't excuse him at all. Vincent would have wasted no time banning them.
    Neither Vincent nor Selig had the authority to do this. Selig certainly bears his share of culpability, but Vincent could only have raised awareness amongst the owners in an attempt to make it a point in collective bargaining, nothing more.
    "It is a simple matter to erect a Hall of Fame, but difficult to select the tenants." -- Ken Smith
    "I am led to suspect that some of the electorate is very dumb." -- Henry P. Edwards
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    "There's no such thing as a perfect ballot." -- Jay Jaffe

  16. #256
    Quote Originally Posted by John Shoemaker View Post
    Another question would be - How many homeruns would Maris have hit in 1961 if he had to bat against pitchers that were on steroids?
    Fair question. Here's another fair question. Assuming Maris was also on steroids as well, as McGwire admittedly was in 98, how many more Hrs would he have hit off pitchers, including some who used steroids? 9 More?, 12 more?

  17. #257
    Quote Originally Posted by BoweryBoys View Post
    Fair question. Here's another fair question. Assuming Maris was also on steroids as well, as McGwire admittedly was in 98, how many more Hrs would he have hit off pitchers, including some who used steroids? 9 More?, 12 more?
    If Maris was on steroids and many of the pitchers he faced were on steroids (as IMO many of the pitchers McGwire faced were also on steroids) the numbers would be basically the same 61 and 70.
    Last edited by John Shoemaker; 01-14-2010 at 02:48 PM.

  18. #258
    Quote Originally Posted by BoweryBoys View Post
    Fair question. Here's another fair question. Assuming Maris was also on steroids as well, as McGwire admittedly was in 98, how many more Hrs would he have hit off pitchers, including some who used steroids? 9 More?, 12 more?
    9 less, 12 less? Who knows? He also did not have top face pitchers with arms that were repaired surgically. He did not have other hitters whose eyes were enhanced with laser scopes so that they could see the spin coming off the pitchers hand.

  19. #259
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    Quote Originally Posted by SHOELESSJOE3 View Post
    Thats all that matters, for all users.
    So if he only used in 1989 is he cheating? So obviously other things matter besides whether or not he used.

  20. #260
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ace Venom View Post
    First off, Major League Baseball operates in the United States of America and is thus a subject of its laws. Secondly, does the lack of action against Mark McGwire excuse him? That investigation was aimed at prosecuting the drug pushers and not the drug users. Just because Bud Selig is wishy washy and wouldn't ban users then doesn't excuse him at all.
    Yes, and Mark McGwire was not prosecuted and found guilty of any crime therefore he was/is innocent of any criminal actions. So if he has not been convicted of any crimes what baseball rule did he break?

    Vincent would have wasted no time banning them.
    Not true at all. Vincent was Commish when McGwire and Canseco were using steroids. MLB knew at the very least Canseco was using and the Commish did nothing. He put out a memo that he himself admits meant nothing. Vincent had his chance and like Selig after him he did nothing.

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