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Thread: McGwire confesses

  1. #261
    Quote Originally Posted by NJYankeeFan View Post
    What about Sosa? Did he admit? Pujols? Why not? He was the spokesman for the company that made McGwire's andro?

    What makes you think Howard is clean?

    We know Mays and Aaron used PEDs.

    We know Babe Ruth tried to pump himself up with excessive amounts of caffeine because that is what he could get then.
    [[B]
    [ Who is "we". After reseaching Ruth most of my life, I have never seen that in print from what could
    be termed a reliable source, what is the source.]SHOELESSJOE3

    PED usage has always been rampant in baseball and all sports.

    It's rampant in many walks of life. What is coffee? But if that's ok what about the guy that takes ADD drugs to improve mental performance on the job to beat out the guy doing it naturally or the guy just drinking coffee.
    What about Sosa? His name was on the list of 104, maybe some day that can be verified, why would he admit it. He cried "skin color" when he got nailed with that corked bat. I doubt he did use the bat that much but he should have just kept his mouth shut, took his punishment without crying
    Howard, I have no idea, how would I know. Not saying he used or not, I just don't know.

  2. #262
    Quote Originally Posted by Ubiquitous View Post
    So if he only used in 1989 is he cheating? So obviously other things matter besides whether or not he used.
    Read my post, no words about cheating.
    I just countered to your tired worn out line...............they knew but they did nothing. He still used put the blame where it belongs.

  3. #263
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    Quote Originally Posted by SHOELESSJOE3 View Post
    Read my post, no words about cheating.
    I just countered to your tired worn out line...............they knew but they did nothing. He still used put the blame where it belongs.
    How are my lines tired and worn out but your lines are not? If it isn't about cheating then why is there blame?

    Okay then, if McGwire only used in 1989 is there any blame to be put on him? If Sosa went to the island to use steroids is there any blame to be put on him.


    If there is blame for using steroids then the blame belongs on the players, the managers, the execs, the owners, the leagues, the commissioners, the reporters, the editors, the media, the media execs, and the fans.

  4. #264
    Quote Originally Posted by SHOELESSJOE3 View Post
    What about Sosa? His name was on the list of 104, maybe some day that can be verified, why would he admit it. He cried "skin color" when he got nailed with that corked bat. I doubt he did use the bat that much but he should have just kept his mouth shut, took his punishment without crying
    Howard, I have no idea, how would I know. Not saying he used or not, I just don't know.
    You just don't know but you want to flame some and not others.

    We really have no way of knowing who did or who did not without them coming out and saying that they did it.

    So some feel the need to go on witch hunts.

    And players have always used what they could. Steroids, greenies, ephedrine, cocaine, coffee. And they always will.

  5. #265
    Quote Originally Posted by Ubiquitous View Post
    How are my lines tired and worn out but your lines are not? If it isn't about cheating then why is there blame?

    Okay then, if McGwire only used in 1989 is there any blame to be put on him? If Sosa went to the island to use steroids is there any blame to be put on him.


    If there is blame for using steroids then the blame belongs on the players, the managers, the execs, the owners, the leagues, the commissioners, the reporters, the editors, the media, the media execs, and the fans.
    Thats your take, user takes the blame, not bad enough blaming others, now it's the fans.

  6. #266
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    Quote Originally Posted by SHOELESSJOE3 View Post
    Thats your take, user takes the blame, not bad enough blaming others, now it's the fans.
    I'm a fan and I don't care if they take drugs. I give baseball my money. Am I free of blame? Am I the only fan who either didn't care about the truth, didn't want to see it, or refused to accept it?

    So who is using the users?

    How come teams that knew these players were taking drugs and yet still offered them megamillion dollar contracts are free from blame? How come the media, which tries to cast themselves as the watchdog of society, is free from blame even though they decided to look the other way?

  7. #267
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ubiquitous View Post
    Okay then, if McGwire only used in 1989 is there any blame to be put on him?


    If there is blame for using steroids then the blame belongs on the players, the managers, the execs, the owners, the leagues, the commissioners, the reporters, the editors, the media, the media execs, and the fans.
    the blame begins the split second the syringe is depressed 1/1000th of an inch, the blame begins the moment the drink is taken to swallow the pills, the blame begins the millisecond the cream or clear is applied to the skin.... Even BEFORE it is absorbed or rubbed in.

    Blaming an exec, a writer or an owner all depends on whether or not a player decided to break the law and juice. In other words, years from now one could blame polititians or the legal system for strict sentences or unfair courtroom practices regarding evidence. But if you never kill anyone with a chain saw, the polititians won't ever hear you complain or blame them
    "Herman Franks to Sal Yvars to Bobby Thomson. Ralph Branca to Bobby Thomson to Helen Rita... cue Russ Hodges."

  8. #268
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ubiquitous View Post
    I'm a fan and I don't care if they take drugs. I give baseball my money. Am I free of blame? Am I the only fan who either didn't care about the truth, didn't want to see it, or refused to accept it?

    So who is using the users?

    How come teams that knew these players were taking drugs and yet still offered them megamillion dollar contracts are free from blame? How come the media, which tries to cast themselves as the watchdog of society, is free from blame even though they decided to look the other way?
    Of course you are not the only person indifferent to juicers. You are however a very LARGE minority. HOF voters obviously disagree with you, and there is little, VERY little public oppositionto the 23% HOF votes Mac has been getting. Very little outrage on boards like this one, and very little support from those in baseball. I wonder why that is......

    You do stand firm on your convictions, I can respect that. You're nuts and completely wrong, but I respect it!!

    Blame towards owners and media is quite a nice fall back for you.... But let's ask this. What year, or after what incident or situation should the media have blown this open? Can you please clarify EXACTLY when they should have acted, how they should have acted, etc to be completely void of your "blame?"
    "Herman Franks to Sal Yvars to Bobby Thomson. Ralph Branca to Bobby Thomson to Helen Rita... cue Russ Hodges."

  9. #269
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    Quote Originally Posted by StanTheMan View Post
    Of course you are not the only person indifferent to juicers. You are however a very LARGE minority. HOF voters obviously disagree with you, and there is little, VERY little public oppositionto the 23% HOF votes Mac has been getting. Very little outrage on boards like this one, and very little support from those in baseball. I wonder why that is......
    According to Canseco at least steroid user has been inducted into the HoF in the last 5 to 8 years. Considering that most reporters knew who was taking what I seriously doubt that this guy snuck in. Nor is the jury verdict in yet. We still have Clemens and Bonds up for election.


    You do stand firm on your convictions, I can respect that. You're nuts and completely wrong, but I respect it!!

    Blame towards owners and media is quite a nice fall back for you.... But let's ask this. What year, or after what incident or situation should the media have blown this open? Can you please clarify EXACTLY when they should have acted, how they should have acted, etc to be completely void of your "blame?"
    How about after LaRussa stated that Canseco used steroids in the minors back in 1988 or so? How about when Boswell(?) said that Canseco was using steroids back in 1989? How about at any point when they began noticing it and they themselves said they should have said something but didn't?

  10. #270
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    Quote Originally Posted by StanTheMan View Post
    the blame begins the split second the syringe is depressed 1/1000th of an inch, the blame begins the moment the drink is taken to swallow the pills, the blame begins the millisecond the cream or clear is applied to the skin.... Even BEFORE it is absorbed or rubbed in.

    Blaming an exec, a writer or an owner all depends on whether or not a player decided to break the law and juice. In other words, years from now one could blame polititians or the legal system for strict sentences or unfair courtroom practices regarding evidence. But if you never kill anyone with a chain saw, the polititians won't ever hear you complain or blame them
    It is a fact that a society or culture that does not care about something (in terms of morals, ethics, law) the more likely it is to happen. In otherwords if there are no repercussions then it is likely something negative will happen.

    Look at speeding. If you know a street will never have a cop on it then there will be higher rates of speeding on that street. If everybody knows there is a speed trap on that street or a cop is likely to be on that street you will have lower rates of speeding.

    The owners were the ones running the show. You get the house you built and in the case of the owners they built a house that nurtured and steroid use. Every single time they signed some steroid user to a mega contract and cut some scrub who wasn't using steroids they help strengthen the steroid environment.

  11. #271
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ace Venom View Post
    Life is unfair. That's an unfortunate reality we learn growing up. Unfairness in life does not excuse breaking federal law.
    Who cares about federal law? Let the feds deal with him, not baseball.
    Lou Gehrig is the Truest Yankee of them all!

  12. #272
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    Quote Originally Posted by BoweryBoys View Post
    Early in his career 24 year-old Lou Gehrig hit 47 Hrs in one season. Safe to say he also learned a lot as his career progressed. His highest season total would reach 49 even at an older age.

    As a rookie Frank Robinson hit 38 HRs. At 23 (same age as McGwire was during his rookie season) Robinson hit 36 HRs. Safe to say that as his career progressed he too learned a lot. He also would peak at 49 in perhaps his greatest season at 31 years-old.

    Oh I forgot! Admitted steroid user McGwire, even using during the year he hit 70, is the greatest HR hitter of all-time. Not only was he naturally a greater HR hitter but he must have learned a whole lot more, maybe even been smarter and a naturally better hitter then Triple Crown winners Gehrig and Robinson. Couldn't have been helped by steroids, he was just great. Why was I too dumb to see that!
    Gehrig got sick. In my opinion, he was weakened early on from the disease (1930 or earlier), and likely would have surpassed Ruth as the greatest player ever, and surely hit 60+. Bad example.

    Robertson hit 11 more than in his rookie year in a weaker era, so thanks for proving me right.

    Mac is the greatest HR hitter ever. Never better all around than Gehrig, but a better HR hitter than anyone.
    Lou Gehrig is the Truest Yankee of them all!

  13. #273
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    Quote Originally Posted by BoweryBoys View Post
    Fair question. Here's another fair question. Assuming Maris was also on steroids as well, as McGwire admittedly was in 98, how many more Hrs would he have hit off pitchers, including some who used steroids? 9 More?, 12 more?
    He was a fluke or he would have done it again. Take Mantle away and he's nobody. Mac didn't need anyone else to protect him.
    Lou Gehrig is the Truest Yankee of them all!

  14. #274
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    Quote Originally Posted by White Knight View Post
    Gehrig got sick. In my opinion, he was weakened early on from the disease (1930 or earlier), and likely would have surpassed Ruth as the greatest player ever, and surely hit 60+. Bad example.

    Robertson hit 11 more than in his rookie year in a weaker era, so thanks for proving me right.

    Mac is the greatest HR hitter ever. Never better all around than Gehrig, but a better HR hitter than anyone.
    It is highly unlikely that Gehrig started getting his by ALS as early as 1930 or even earlier than that.

    He started noticing symptoms near the end of the 1938 season even if we are liberal with the timeline you really can't go much past the 1937 season.

  15. #275
    Quote Originally Posted by Ubiquitous View Post
    It is highly unlikely that Gehrig started getting his by ALS as early as 1930 or even earlier than that.

    He started noticing symptoms near the end of the 1938 season even if we are liberal with the timeline you really can't go much past the 1937 season.
    In 1936, Gehrig led the league in OB%, slug %, HRs and walks, he was second in RBI

    In 1934 he won the triple crown and also led the league in OB% and sluggung%
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  16. #276
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ubiquitous View Post
    It is highly unlikely that Gehrig started getting his by ALS as early as 1930 or even earlier than that.

    He started noticing symptoms near the end of the 1938 season even if we are liberal with the timeline you really can't go much past the 1937 season.
    Quote Originally Posted by 9RoyHobbsRF View Post
    In 1936, Gehrig led the league in OB%, slug %, HRs and walks, he was second in RBI

    In 1934 he won the triple crown and also led the league in OB% and sluggung%
    Maybe, but we'll never know. He may have been just that good where even slightly weakened in 1934, he still won the TC.
    Lou Gehrig is the Truest Yankee of them all!

  17. #277
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    Quote Originally Posted by White Knight View Post
    Maybe, but we'll never know. He may have been just that good where even slightly weakened in 1934, he still won the TC.
    We may never know but it is highly unlikely he was feeling symptoms of ALS in 1934.

  18. #278
    Quote Originally Posted by Ubiquitous View Post
    How are my lines tired and worn out but your lines are not? If it isn't about cheating then why is there blame?

    Okay then, if McGwire only used in 1989 is there any blame to be put on him? If Sosa went to the island to use steroids is there any blame to be put on him.


    If there is blame for using steroids then the blame belongs on the players, the managers, the execs, the owners, the leagues, the commissioners, the reporters, the editors, the media, the media execs, and the fans.
    Where do I start, what can I say to undo that wrong, the part that I played in some players using PEDs. For some time I've been pointing the finger at the ballplayers, never stopping to think, in a small way I helped lay the foundation for the big bust we now see in MLB.

    Sure I'm only one person, one fan but multiply that by millions of fans, millions who paid to watch these games, watch the players, it's not about being only one, millions of us paved the way for the big mess in the game.

    I, like the rest of us on the board, fans everywhere all have our own problems in our personal lives, now I have to carry this burden, live with this guilt.

    The players most likely will never see this post, but I'm going on record, my apology, to the game and especially to any player who may have suffered for my deeds.

    I challenge all this board, the next time you speak about any player, suspect or a proven user...............before you condemn, look in the mirror, you share some of the guilt. I'm sorry.

  19. #279
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    Mea Maxima Culpa.
    What's the rumpus?

  20. #280
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    Quote Originally Posted by White Knight View Post
    Who cares about federal law? Let the feds deal with him, not baseball.
    Um...yeah. As if Major League Baseball is the only business that drug tests their employees.

    To answer questions about Big Mac without steroids, I decided to project his career numbers beyond 1989. This assumes that he does not miss time due to injury. By his own admission, he tried steroids in the 1989-90 offseason. Only his numbers up until the 1989 season are used in the projection using Bill James MLB Career Stat Projection Tool.

    Projected Years After 1989: 8.5 (circa mid-1998)
    At Bats: 6,269 (average of 543.5 per year)
    Hits: 1,676 (29% chance to reach 2,000 with an average of 147 per year)
    Singles: 921
    Doubles: 273 (39% chance to reach 300 with an average of 24.2 per year)
    Triples: 20 (0% chance to reach 50 with an average of 1.8 per year)
    Home Runs: 462 (40% chance at 500 with an average of 40.7 per year)
    Walks: 868 (average 74.7 per year)
    Strikeouts: 1,381 (average 120.2 per year)
    Hit By Pitch: 49 (average 4.3 per year)
    Sacrifice Flies: 83 (average 7.2 per year)
    Total Bases: 3,375

    Based on those numbers, his batting average, slugging percentage and on-base percentage can be projected.
    Batting Average: .267
    On-Base Percentage: .357
    Slugging Percentage: .538

    His final hit totals are overestimated, but McGwire also missed significant time in 1993 and 1994 due to injuries. It also doesn't take the 1994-95 strike into account either. Despite this, the projection is still fairly close as are the at-bats. The projected .267 batting average is thus a decent projection based on his early career and what he did with steroids. According to McGwire, steroids didn’t make him a better hitter. Based on batting average, it’s possible that they made him worse than his projected value in terms of pure average.

    What’s most telling is the difference in power numbers through 1997. A projection to 1998 reveals that McGwire would have been projected to hit only 462 home runs in his career. Through 1997, McGwire only had 387 career home runs and his batting average (.260), hits (1,201) and doubles (198) were significantly below projected values. The addition of 1998 and 199 significantly boosted McGwire’s career totals in terms of power. Much of the problem that McGwire had was that he was dealing with injuries. It’s plausible that knowing what we do about steroids that McGwire’s injuries had some contribution from his steroid use.

    What is projected is not a Hall of Famer. Anyone who questions whether or not McGwire belongs in the Hall of Fame can look at what was projected from 1989. McGwire did not have a great chance to reach 500 home runs (only 40%), but it’s possible that he might have reached 500 career home runs. When you take the strike into account, it makes McGwire's quest for 500 very unlikely. McGwire as projected would have needed 500 career home runs to receive Hall of Fame consideration. He had a chance at a fine career if he had never touched steroids, which is a tragedy by itself.
    Last edited by Ace Venom; 01-15-2010 at 10:20 AM.
    RIP Ronnie James Dio (July 10, 1942 - May 16, 2010).

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