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Thread: McGwire confesses

  1. #251
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ace Venom View Post
    Life is unfair. That's an unfortunate reality we learn growing up. Unfairness in life does not excuse breaking federal law.
    Which is a federal matter and not a baseball matter. Plus the Feds did know about Mark's drug usage and they chose to do nothing. I think that says something. Pretty much everybody in a position of responsibility was aware that Mark McGwire was taking steroids and they all did nothing.

  2. #252
    Quote Originally Posted by Ubiquitous View Post
    Which is a federal matter and not a baseball matter. Plus the Feds did know about Mark's drug usage and they chose to do nothing. I think that says something. Pretty much everybody in a position of responsibility was aware that Mark McGwire was taking steroids and they all did nothing.
    Thats all that matters, for all users.

  3. #253
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ubiquitous View Post
    Which is a federal matter and not a baseball matter. Plus the Feds did know about Mark's drug usage and they chose to do nothing. I think that says something. Pretty much everybody in a position of responsibility was aware that Mark McGwire was taking steroids and they all did nothing.
    First off, Major League Baseball operates in the United States of America and is thus a subject of its laws. Secondly, does the lack of action against Mark McGwire excuse him? That investigation was aimed at prosecuting the drug pushers and not the drug users. Just because Bud Selig is wishy washy and wouldn't ban users then doesn't excuse him at all. Vincent would have wasted no time banning them.
    Last edited by Ace Venom; 01-14-2010 at 01:56 PM.
    RIP Ronnie James Dio (July 10, 1942 - May 16, 2010).

  4. #254
    Quote Originally Posted by White Knight View Post
    How many do you think a clean and healthy Mac would have hit in 1998? Remember, he learned a lot from when he first came up.
    Early in his career 24 year-old Lou Gehrig hit 47 Hrs in one season. Safe to say he also learned a lot as his career progressed. His highest season total would reach 49 even at an older age.

    As a rookie Frank Robinson hit 38 HRs. At 23 (same age as McGwire was during his rookie season) Robinson hit 36 HRs. Safe to say that as his career progressed he too learned a lot. He also would peak at 49 in perhaps his greatest season at 31 years-old.

    Oh I forgot! Admitted steroid user McGwire, even using during the year he hit 70, is the greatest HR hitter of all-time. Not only was he naturally a greater HR hitter but he must have learned a whole lot more, maybe even been smarter and a naturally better hitter then Triple Crown winners Gehrig and Robinson. Couldn't have been helped by steroids, he was just great. Why was I too dumb to see that!

  5. #255
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ace Venom View Post
    First off, Major League Baseball operates in the United States of America and is thus a subject of its laws. Secondly, does the lack of action against Mark McGwire excuse him? That investigation was aimed at prosecuting the drug pushers and not the drug users. Just because Bud Selig is wishy washy and wouldn't ban users then doesn't excuse him at all. Vincent would have wasted no time banning them.
    Neither Vincent nor Selig had the authority to do this. Selig certainly bears his share of culpability, but Vincent could only have raised awareness amongst the owners in an attempt to make it a point in collective bargaining, nothing more.
    "It is a simple matter to erect a Hall of Fame, but difficult to select the tenants." -- Ken Smith, Spink Award winner

  6. #256
    Quote Originally Posted by John Shoemaker View Post
    Another question would be - How many homeruns would Maris have hit in 1961 if he had to bat against pitchers that were on steroids?
    Fair question. Here's another fair question. Assuming Maris was also on steroids as well, as McGwire admittedly was in 98, how many more Hrs would he have hit off pitchers, including some who used steroids? 9 More?, 12 more?

  7. #257
    Quote Originally Posted by BoweryBoys View Post
    Fair question. Here's another fair question. Assuming Maris was also on steroids as well, as McGwire admittedly was in 98, how many more Hrs would he have hit off pitchers, including some who used steroids? 9 More?, 12 more?
    If Maris was on steroids and many of the pitchers he faced were on steroids (as IMO many of the pitchers McGwire faced were also on steroids) the numbers would be basically the same 61 and 70.
    Last edited by John Shoemaker; 01-14-2010 at 03:48 PM.

  8. #258
    Quote Originally Posted by BoweryBoys View Post
    Fair question. Here's another fair question. Assuming Maris was also on steroids as well, as McGwire admittedly was in 98, how many more Hrs would he have hit off pitchers, including some who used steroids? 9 More?, 12 more?
    9 less, 12 less? Who knows? He also did not have top face pitchers with arms that were repaired surgically. He did not have other hitters whose eyes were enhanced with laser scopes so that they could see the spin coming off the pitchers hand.

  9. #259
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    Quote Originally Posted by SHOELESSJOE3 View Post
    Thats all that matters, for all users.
    So if he only used in 1989 is he cheating? So obviously other things matter besides whether or not he used.

  10. #260
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ace Venom View Post
    First off, Major League Baseball operates in the United States of America and is thus a subject of its laws. Secondly, does the lack of action against Mark McGwire excuse him? That investigation was aimed at prosecuting the drug pushers and not the drug users. Just because Bud Selig is wishy washy and wouldn't ban users then doesn't excuse him at all.
    Yes, and Mark McGwire was not prosecuted and found guilty of any crime therefore he was/is innocent of any criminal actions. So if he has not been convicted of any crimes what baseball rule did he break?

    Vincent would have wasted no time banning them.
    Not true at all. Vincent was Commish when McGwire and Canseco were using steroids. MLB knew at the very least Canseco was using and the Commish did nothing. He put out a memo that he himself admits meant nothing. Vincent had his chance and like Selig after him he did nothing.

  11. #261
    Quote Originally Posted by NJYankeeFan View Post
    What about Sosa? Did he admit? Pujols? Why not? He was the spokesman for the company that made McGwire's andro?

    What makes you think Howard is clean?

    We know Mays and Aaron used PEDs.

    We know Babe Ruth tried to pump himself up with excessive amounts of caffeine because that is what he could get then.
    [[B]
    [ Who is "we". After reseaching Ruth most of my life, I have never seen that in print from what could
    be termed a reliable source, what is the source.]SHOELESSJOE3

    PED usage has always been rampant in baseball and all sports.

    It's rampant in many walks of life. What is coffee? But if that's ok what about the guy that takes ADD drugs to improve mental performance on the job to beat out the guy doing it naturally or the guy just drinking coffee.
    What about Sosa? His name was on the list of 104, maybe some day that can be verified, why would he admit it. He cried "skin color" when he got nailed with that corked bat. I doubt he did use the bat that much but he should have just kept his mouth shut, took his punishment without crying
    Howard, I have no idea, how would I know. Not saying he used or not, I just don't know.

  12. #262
    Quote Originally Posted by Ubiquitous View Post
    So if he only used in 1989 is he cheating? So obviously other things matter besides whether or not he used.
    Read my post, no words about cheating.
    I just countered to your tired worn out line...............they knew but they did nothing. He still used put the blame where it belongs.

  13. #263
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    Quote Originally Posted by SHOELESSJOE3 View Post
    Read my post, no words about cheating.
    I just countered to your tired worn out line...............they knew but they did nothing. He still used put the blame where it belongs.
    How are my lines tired and worn out but your lines are not? If it isn't about cheating then why is there blame?

    Okay then, if McGwire only used in 1989 is there any blame to be put on him? If Sosa went to the island to use steroids is there any blame to be put on him.


    If there is blame for using steroids then the blame belongs on the players, the managers, the execs, the owners, the leagues, the commissioners, the reporters, the editors, the media, the media execs, and the fans.

  14. #264
    Quote Originally Posted by SHOELESSJOE3 View Post
    What about Sosa? His name was on the list of 104, maybe some day that can be verified, why would he admit it. He cried "skin color" when he got nailed with that corked bat. I doubt he did use the bat that much but he should have just kept his mouth shut, took his punishment without crying
    Howard, I have no idea, how would I know. Not saying he used or not, I just don't know.
    You just don't know but you want to flame some and not others.

    We really have no way of knowing who did or who did not without them coming out and saying that they did it.

    So some feel the need to go on witch hunts.

    And players have always used what they could. Steroids, greenies, ephedrine, cocaine, coffee. And they always will.

  15. #265
    Quote Originally Posted by Ubiquitous View Post
    How are my lines tired and worn out but your lines are not? If it isn't about cheating then why is there blame?

    Okay then, if McGwire only used in 1989 is there any blame to be put on him? If Sosa went to the island to use steroids is there any blame to be put on him.


    If there is blame for using steroids then the blame belongs on the players, the managers, the execs, the owners, the leagues, the commissioners, the reporters, the editors, the media, the media execs, and the fans.
    Thats your take, user takes the blame, not bad enough blaming others, now it's the fans.

  16. #266
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    Quote Originally Posted by SHOELESSJOE3 View Post
    Thats your take, user takes the blame, not bad enough blaming others, now it's the fans.
    I'm a fan and I don't care if they take drugs. I give baseball my money. Am I free of blame? Am I the only fan who either didn't care about the truth, didn't want to see it, or refused to accept it?

    So who is using the users?

    How come teams that knew these players were taking drugs and yet still offered them megamillion dollar contracts are free from blame? How come the media, which tries to cast themselves as the watchdog of society, is free from blame even though they decided to look the other way?

  17. #267
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ubiquitous View Post
    Okay then, if McGwire only used in 1989 is there any blame to be put on him?


    If there is blame for using steroids then the blame belongs on the players, the managers, the execs, the owners, the leagues, the commissioners, the reporters, the editors, the media, the media execs, and the fans.
    the blame begins the split second the syringe is depressed 1/1000th of an inch, the blame begins the moment the drink is taken to swallow the pills, the blame begins the millisecond the cream or clear is applied to the skin.... Even BEFORE it is absorbed or rubbed in.

    Blaming an exec, a writer or an owner all depends on whether or not a player decided to break the law and juice. In other words, years from now one could blame polititians or the legal system for strict sentences or unfair courtroom practices regarding evidence. But if you never kill anyone with a chain saw, the polititians won't ever hear you complain or blame them
    "Herman Franks to Sal Yvars to Bobby Thomson. Ralph Branca to Bobby Thomson to Helen Rita... cue Russ Hodges."

  18. #268
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ubiquitous View Post
    I'm a fan and I don't care if they take drugs. I give baseball my money. Am I free of blame? Am I the only fan who either didn't care about the truth, didn't want to see it, or refused to accept it?

    So who is using the users?

    How come teams that knew these players were taking drugs and yet still offered them megamillion dollar contracts are free from blame? How come the media, which tries to cast themselves as the watchdog of society, is free from blame even though they decided to look the other way?
    Of course you are not the only person indifferent to juicers. You are however a very LARGE minority. HOF voters obviously disagree with you, and there is little, VERY little public oppositionto the 23% HOF votes Mac has been getting. Very little outrage on boards like this one, and very little support from those in baseball. I wonder why that is......

    You do stand firm on your convictions, I can respect that. You're nuts and completely wrong, but I respect it!!

    Blame towards owners and media is quite a nice fall back for you.... But let's ask this. What year, or after what incident or situation should the media have blown this open? Can you please clarify EXACTLY when they should have acted, how they should have acted, etc to be completely void of your "blame?"
    "Herman Franks to Sal Yvars to Bobby Thomson. Ralph Branca to Bobby Thomson to Helen Rita... cue Russ Hodges."

  19. #269
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    Quote Originally Posted by StanTheMan View Post
    Of course you are not the only person indifferent to juicers. You are however a very LARGE minority. HOF voters obviously disagree with you, and there is little, VERY little public oppositionto the 23% HOF votes Mac has been getting. Very little outrage on boards like this one, and very little support from those in baseball. I wonder why that is......
    According to Canseco at least steroid user has been inducted into the HoF in the last 5 to 8 years. Considering that most reporters knew who was taking what I seriously doubt that this guy snuck in. Nor is the jury verdict in yet. We still have Clemens and Bonds up for election.


    You do stand firm on your convictions, I can respect that. You're nuts and completely wrong, but I respect it!!

    Blame towards owners and media is quite a nice fall back for you.... But let's ask this. What year, or after what incident or situation should the media have blown this open? Can you please clarify EXACTLY when they should have acted, how they should have acted, etc to be completely void of your "blame?"
    How about after LaRussa stated that Canseco used steroids in the minors back in 1988 or so? How about when Boswell(?) said that Canseco was using steroids back in 1989? How about at any point when they began noticing it and they themselves said they should have said something but didn't?

  20. #270
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    Quote Originally Posted by StanTheMan View Post
    the blame begins the split second the syringe is depressed 1/1000th of an inch, the blame begins the moment the drink is taken to swallow the pills, the blame begins the millisecond the cream or clear is applied to the skin.... Even BEFORE it is absorbed or rubbed in.

    Blaming an exec, a writer or an owner all depends on whether or not a player decided to break the law and juice. In other words, years from now one could blame polititians or the legal system for strict sentences or unfair courtroom practices regarding evidence. But if you never kill anyone with a chain saw, the polititians won't ever hear you complain or blame them
    It is a fact that a society or culture that does not care about something (in terms of morals, ethics, law) the more likely it is to happen. In otherwords if there are no repercussions then it is likely something negative will happen.

    Look at speeding. If you know a street will never have a cop on it then there will be higher rates of speeding on that street. If everybody knows there is a speed trap on that street or a cop is likely to be on that street you will have lower rates of speeding.

    The owners were the ones running the show. You get the house you built and in the case of the owners they built a house that nurtured and steroid use. Every single time they signed some steroid user to a mega contract and cut some scrub who wasn't using steroids they help strengthen the steroid environment.

  21. #271
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ace Venom View Post
    Life is unfair. That's an unfortunate reality we learn growing up. Unfairness in life does not excuse breaking federal law.
    Who cares about federal law? Let the feds deal with him, not baseball.
    Lou Gehrig is the Truest Yankee of them all!

  22. #272
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    Quote Originally Posted by BoweryBoys View Post
    Early in his career 24 year-old Lou Gehrig hit 47 Hrs in one season. Safe to say he also learned a lot as his career progressed. His highest season total would reach 49 even at an older age.

    As a rookie Frank Robinson hit 38 HRs. At 23 (same age as McGwire was during his rookie season) Robinson hit 36 HRs. Safe to say that as his career progressed he too learned a lot. He also would peak at 49 in perhaps his greatest season at 31 years-old.

    Oh I forgot! Admitted steroid user McGwire, even using during the year he hit 70, is the greatest HR hitter of all-time. Not only was he naturally a greater HR hitter but he must have learned a whole lot more, maybe even been smarter and a naturally better hitter then Triple Crown winners Gehrig and Robinson. Couldn't have been helped by steroids, he was just great. Why was I too dumb to see that!
    Gehrig got sick. In my opinion, he was weakened early on from the disease (1930 or earlier), and likely would have surpassed Ruth as the greatest player ever, and surely hit 60+. Bad example.

    Robertson hit 11 more than in his rookie year in a weaker era, so thanks for proving me right.

    Mac is the greatest HR hitter ever. Never better all around than Gehrig, but a better HR hitter than anyone.
    Lou Gehrig is the Truest Yankee of them all!

  23. #273
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    Quote Originally Posted by BoweryBoys View Post
    Fair question. Here's another fair question. Assuming Maris was also on steroids as well, as McGwire admittedly was in 98, how many more Hrs would he have hit off pitchers, including some who used steroids? 9 More?, 12 more?
    He was a fluke or he would have done it again. Take Mantle away and he's nobody. Mac didn't need anyone else to protect him.
    Lou Gehrig is the Truest Yankee of them all!

  24. #274
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    Quote Originally Posted by White Knight View Post
    Gehrig got sick. In my opinion, he was weakened early on from the disease (1930 or earlier), and likely would have surpassed Ruth as the greatest player ever, and surely hit 60+. Bad example.

    Robertson hit 11 more than in his rookie year in a weaker era, so thanks for proving me right.

    Mac is the greatest HR hitter ever. Never better all around than Gehrig, but a better HR hitter than anyone.
    It is highly unlikely that Gehrig started getting his by ALS as early as 1930 or even earlier than that.

    He started noticing symptoms near the end of the 1938 season even if we are liberal with the timeline you really can't go much past the 1937 season.

  25. #275
    Quote Originally Posted by Ubiquitous View Post
    It is highly unlikely that Gehrig started getting his by ALS as early as 1930 or even earlier than that.

    He started noticing symptoms near the end of the 1938 season even if we are liberal with the timeline you really can't go much past the 1937 season.
    In 1936, Gehrig led the league in OB%, slug %, HRs and walks, he was second in RBI

    In 1934 he won the triple crown and also led the league in OB% and sluggung%
    1. The more I learn, the more convinced I am that many players are over-rated due to inflated stats from offensive home parks (and eras)
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