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Thread: McGwire confesses

  1. #161
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    Quote Originally Posted by fenrir View Post
    I'm saying Clemens legacy wouldn't be tarnished had all he used was amphetamines, and the same goes for any player. Do you think HOF voters would attribute amphetamines to aiding someone like Clemens, Bonds, etc stats like they would steroids?
    Yes I do.

    I don't think so, and I that's why it would be easier for a player to admit to using Greenies than admitting to using steroids.
    The only reason it is easier to cop to greenies nowadays is because of steroids. Before steroids became a huge issue greenies were the huge issue. 5 or 6 years ago people would come out of the woodwork on this site if you stated that Willie Mays and Hank Aaron used greenies. If the public was ignorant of steroids and all of this happened and the only thing that came out was that Bonds, Clemens, and others took greenies it would be huge and peopel would be saying the records don't count because they took drugs.

  2. #162
    Quote Originally Posted by Ubiquitous View Post
    According to a steroid dealer who was caught selling steroids and rolled over on his connections Reggie is clean. Reggie, like Rose, actually had a steroid user/dealer living with him. In fact Reggie, according to the dealer and Reggie himself, accidentally introduced a steroid expert/seller to the Oakland A's and this dealer would be the one who supplied drugs to Canseco, McGwire and others and helped them set up drug regimes and training programs. Reggie apparently had no knowledge that his friend was a steroid dealer and the dealer says the same thing.

    Reggie, to me, has always been one of those guys that I would think would have used steroids in his playing days if he had known more about them when he was playing. Even after his retirement he still loved working out and being in peak physical shape.
    Never knew that about Reggie's trainer, or Rose's for that matter.

  3. #163
    Quote Originally Posted by Bulldog19 View Post
    You can test positive on an NCAA drug test for caffeine in the system. And get in trouble for it.. It is a stimulant.
    MLB is not the NCAA and yes it is a stimulant, I was speaking in general terms in my previous post.
    You would have to drink around 8 cups. 8 ounces to be in danger of testing over the limit, 4 or 5 cups close to the event. I wouldn't doubt some have tried this, just enough not to register too high.
    Anyway, not going to split hairs over this one. Another poster tossed caffeine consumption into a post dealing with steroids in the game, I was pointing out the difference.

  4. #164
    Quote Originally Posted by songtitle View Post
    Big Mac's 49 homer rookie season? Fair or foul?
    I would have to say fair, even if and I say "if" he was using.


    Nothing can be done, nothing should be done in the book to any numbers put up, even if by users after the ban.

    There is no way to "sort out" numbers, everything stands as is.

  5. #165
    Quote Originally Posted by fenrir View Post
    I'll probably get flamed for this, but it wouldn't shock me if we found out that either Reggie Jackson or Nolan Ryan Juiced.
    I think it's worse to believe anyone is above reproach about steroids.
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  6. #166
    All the laying the blame on others, talk about greenies, corked bats and other rule breaking................and I agree were breaking rules no excusing them, not doing Mac any good. Just take a look at the HOF voting.

    The voters are not buying, most of them see it the way it is, these guys made a choice, now they live by it.

    I was feeling for this guy, tough time in his life. Now he comes up with this one........he could have hit 70 even with no steroid use. How is that, he uses and hit 70 but claims he could have hit 70 with no use.
    Last edited by SHOELESSJOE3; 01-12-2010 at 01:38 PM.

  7. #167
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    Quote Originally Posted by fenrir View Post
    Never knew that about Reggie's trainer, or Rose's for that matter.
    Reggie didn't meet the steroid dealer until after he retired. In the case of the steroid dealer in Rose's case he was not his trainer.

  8. #168
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    Quote Originally Posted by SHOELESSJOE3 View Post
    All the laying the blame on others, talk about greenies, corked bats and other rule breaking................and I agree were breaking rules no excusing them, not doing Mac any good. Just take a look at the HOF voting.

    The voters are not buying, most of them see it the way it is, these guys made a choice, now they live by it.
    We'll see if the voters are not buying it in future votes.

    McGwire, even when he retired, was considered by many as a borderline HoF'er not a slam dunk hall of famer.

  9. #169
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ubiquitous View Post
    I doubt it was even Downing. I would guess that Seaver used them before Downing.
    Really? I've never heard of any stories about Seaver. What have you read or heard?

    The West Coast was the capital for steroids in America and even as late as 1987 or so knowledge about steroids was very primitive. You basically had a lot of gym rats experimenting with them and picking things and creating routines based on the results they thought they were getting. The Russians might have had a better system set up but they were not sharing with us that knowledge.
    By the 1970's the East Germans had huge PED programs, especially in track and swimming,
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  10. #170
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    Quote Originally Posted by Honus Wagner Rules View Post
    Really? I've never heard of any stories about Seaver. What have you read or heard?
    And there are none. Tom Seaver was a California kid that was widely known as a gym rat back in the day.

    By the 1970's the East Germans had huge PED programs, especially in track and swimming,
    "Russians" was shorthand for the Eastern Bloc in my original post.

  11. #171
    Quote Originally Posted by Ubiquitous View Post
    We'll see if the voters are not buying it in future votes.

    McGwire, even when he retired, was considered by many as a borderline HoF'er not a slam dunk hall of famer.
    It's already obvious what they're buying at this time, Mark could not afford to lose any votes.
    He was not a slam dunk but I can't believe he couldn't get to 25 percent if not a user.

    Barry and Roger, I think they lose some votes but I can see them getting in.
    What I'm saying, in Mark's case usage took away all chances.

  12. #172
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    Quote Originally Posted by SHOELESSJOE3 View Post
    It's already obvious what they're buying at this time, Mark could not afford to lose any votes.
    He was not a slam dunk but I can't believe he couldn't get to 25 percent if not a user.

    Barry and Roger, I think they lose some votes but I can see them getting in.
    What I'm saying, in Mark's case usage took away all chances.
    But if his usage created the stats then his usage is the only thing keeping him in the running for the hall. Would Mark still be on the ballot if he finished his career with 483 homers and never hitting over 60 homers in a season?

    Like I said we'll see in the future. If Mark has his vote totals go down or stay roughly the same for rest of his 15 years on the ballot then it could be argued convincingly that the voters are not accepting it.

  13. #173
    A big difference from baseball today from past decades is smaller field dimensions. Its a contributing factor in higher homerun totals for players. Baseball is not football, the field isnt the same size in every stadium. Each stadium and team has different dimensions and in the past 2 decades we have seen fields smaller because MLB wanted the long ball to have more popularity. Maris could have hit more if he was playing in smaller ballparks. If players were to use PEDs maybe make the fences farther?

    Personally i dont care that these guys took steroids. In the end its just a game and has no affect on my life. Baseball is entertainment. In the end the players who took PEDs are going to see the health affects later in life and then feel sorry they ever took them. Also if PEDs were for more performance = more money maybe these players should pay back some of their salaries. PEDs prob led to guys making insane money.

    This is what bothers me...people have a problem with AROD using PEDS but not making $300 million? Its baseball...this game is too much of a bussiness, they take the fun out of it

  14. #174
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    Quote Originally Posted by brett View Post
    For the last time, '87 was a great season, but there was an extra live ball in the majors at least for the first half (when he hit 33 of his 49). Also, I don't think you can look at season by season stats of one player and guess at what he was doing.
    You are right about 1987 being a VERY high HR year, but there are two HUGE flaws.

    1.) High or not, he still had the ML lead with 49 (tied).

    2.) He did this as a mere rookie with a lot to learn as a hitter. The ball became extra live again in the mid to late 90's. As a much better and smarter hitter, hitting 21 more easily possible.
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  15. #175
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ubiquitous View Post
    And there are none. Tom Seaver was a California kid that was widely known as a gym rat back in the day.
    I thought not. That's more than a little irresponsible of you to even air that in the first place.

    There are posters around here I would expect that from but I wouldn't have from you, at least not before now.
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  16. #176
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    Quote Originally Posted by Los Bravos View Post
    I thought not. That's more than a little irresponsible of you to even air that in the first place.

    There are posters around here I would expect that from but I wouldn't have from you, at least not before now.
    Irresponsible? I have no responsibility to baseball or to Seaver. This is a public forum where people share their opinions. It is not irresponsible to share my opinion on baseball. This is not baseballcheerleaders-fever.com.

  17. #177
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    I would still file what you wrote under the rubric of "irresponsible." You didn't offer an opinion about baseball. You laid an open ended acusation with no corroboration.

    In my life, I may say rude things about people and I've certainly written similar things here but I try to base what I write on fact. I take our discussions here with a certain amount of seriousness and I wouldn't accuse people of serious misconduct out of the blue like that, then retreat behind the "It's only the internet" meme.
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  18. #178
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    Quote Originally Posted by Los Bravos View Post
    I would still file what you wrote under the rubric of "irresponsible." You didn't offer an opinion about baseball. You laid an open ended acusation with no corroboration.

    In my life, I may say rude things about people and I've certainly written similar things here but I try to base what I write on fact. I take our discussions here with a certain amount of seriousness and I wouldn't accuse people of serious misconduct out of the blue like that, then retreat behind the "It's only the internet" meme.
    Where is the serious misconduct? I have repeatedly said over 6 or so years now that I don't think drug use is a big deal. I have repeatedly said I don't care that players took drugs. I didn't accuse Seaver of any serious misconduct nor did I retreat behind anything.

    Secondly the conversation went like this:

    HWR says he thinks Downing might have been the first to use steroids though he has no proof. I counter that I would guess that the first might be Seaver. From the beginning it was stated as a guess but to respond to the "base what I write on fact" I did do that. Seaver was a notorious gym rat during his playing days. He grew up in the mecca of the steroid culture during the time when steroids were exploding in the sports world. From what I have been told by various people who have had conversations with Seaver and other players in the game Seaver was not shy about taking greenies. So yes, it was rather easy for me to think that Seaver used steroids since so many of the facts in Seaver's life could, and did, lead me to that conclusion.

  19. #179
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    Quote Originally Posted by White Knight View Post
    You are right about 1987 being a VERY high HR year, but there are two HUGE flaws.

    1.) High or not, he still had the ML lead with 49 (tied).

    2.) He did this as a mere rookie with a lot to learn as a hitter. The ball became extra live again in the mid to late 90's. As a much better and smarter hitter, hitting 21 more easily possible.
    McGwire was/would have been an all-time HR hitter regardless of PED's and assuming health. However, the notion that he could have hit 70 in 50 fewer AB's (significant BB increase) is unlikely. Steroids helped him. It has been said many times, but his HR/AB halved after 1993. Some of that is definitely era-specific, but all of it? Like always, the extreme points come out in controversies. He either was a 70 HR hitter all along and the steroids did nothing (twice as good HR/AB ratio post-roids?) or he was complete garbage from the onset (then why the 49 as a rookie?) Of course the truth is somewhere in-between.
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  20. #180
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    I'm not going to sit here and bash Mark McGuire because he without sin cast the first stone, However i feel his bat should be taken away out of the Hall Of Fame away from Roger Maris's and officially admit that Roger Maris is still the home run king. Before i saw the interview i was mad at McGuire and i felt no pitty for him and i wanted to crucify him. Afterwards i was still a little confused and still angry but he got my respect when he said he was sorry to Pat Maris and the Maris children. That had to be hard to do. I feel That Roger Maris should have been in the Hall of Fame but he is not but his bat and ball are. McGuire by hitting those home runs did 2 things it hurt rogers chance to get in the Hall of Fame because now there was a new record and that over shadowed the 1961 season. The second thing it gave Roger Maris the recgonition he deserved for that time the home run race was going on. Now i feel since Roger hit those home run with "0" Zip Ziltch steroids and McGuire did i think it is time to put the man in the Hall of Fame. I do applaud Mark for coming clean (excuse the pun) but it takes alot to admit your mistakes in front of the world.
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