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Thread: 1965 Best of Baseball election thread

  1. #1
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    1965 Best of Baseball election thread

    This is our thirtieth election in this project. The entire rules follow.

    This election will end at 11:59:59 PM EST on February 12, 2010.

    The prior election, and the ballots of the 1964 voters, are in this thread
    Seen on a bumper sticker: If only closed minds came with closed mouths.
    Some minds are like concrete--thoroughly mixed up and permanently set.
    A Lincoln: I don't think much of a man who is not wiser today than he was yesterday.

  2. #2
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    Rules

    1) All BBF users in good standing may participate. However, if there is more than one vote being cast from any one computer or IP, it must be cleared in advance. Should there be unannounced multiple votes from the same IP, I will investigate the circumstances, and all user names involved may be barred from this project as a result, and all but one of the multiple usernames permanently banned from the site. I only anticipate exceptions for family members living in the same home, but I will entertain requests on other bases. Please note that I and the other mods who participate in the project have the capability of determining the IP from which posts come, and I for one intend to monitor same. I have had to deal with a single user manipulating a project with multiple votes, and I don't intend to repeat the experience.

    2) Elections will require a 10 voter quorum. If we do not get ten voters and there are candidate(s) who would be elected no matter what the voters needed to make a quorum did, those candidate(s) will be inducted. Otherwise, no one will be inducted. Further, if we fail to meet a quorum in two of any four consecutive elections, the project will end. If, for instance, we're doing fine on the player end but not the contributor end, I would drop the contributor end under this rule.

    3) We will start in 1936, just as Cooperstown did. For the first election (1936), voters will rank their top 20, taking 10. After that we will go to having voters rank their top 12 players. Points awarded 12-11-10, etc. We will take the top five through 1940, then top three players per year elected until 2010, then two per year. If a voter does not number his selections, I will try to get him/her to do so. If they do not do so before the end of the election period, I may in my sole discretion invalidate the ballot. I have included this provision in order to ease the process of recording the votes. On another point, I know, the 1936 backlog is huge--but that was a historical issue they couldn't avoid, so neither will we.

    4) We will also have a contributor ballot, which will elect one a year through 1985, then one every three (3) years. Contributors will be ranked 1 through 5, with points awarded 5-4-3-2-1. Voters may choose to participate in either one of the ballots or both.

    5) It is permissible to vote for a candidate on both the contributor and player lists.

    6) You are allowed to change your ballot at any time the ballot is open. However, if you change your ballot, you've got to notify me (jalbright) by PM or by a new post in the voting thread, or the changes likely will not be registered.

    7) Players are eligible at the later of age 45 or the first year thereafter in which the player does not play. If the birthdate is not known, add five years to the first time the player misses a season and has less than 10 games the next season. There is an exception for early death, in which case the year of death plus two will be used if that yields an earlier date.

    8) Contributors become eligible at age 65 or in the year of death plus two. whichever comes first.

    9) Each election will run for approximately two weeks unless expressly altered by the project manager, contributors and players done simultaneously.

    10) No one is excluded from being a candidate, regardless of the league they played in, except those elected in either the contributor or player ballots. At that point, they are removed from further consideration. If there are players who returned to the Negro Leagues or Japan after going to the majors, the departure from the majors will be their career end date for purposes of this project.

    11) The standard for including a player on one's ballot is that the player must in the voter's opinion be among the very best eligible players (preferably the number voted on, but if a voter wishes to support someone they feel is 15th in a 12 person ballot instead of one of the top 12, it's too close for anyone to reasonably object. On the other hand, supporting the 25th best eligible candidate on a 12 person ballot is probably beyond the pale). I reserve the power to invalidate ballots which I do not feel are a reasonably knowledgeable, good faith effort to rank the players. One issue I am quite concerned about is that I do not want to see what clearly appear to be attempts to manipulate the ballot so as to elect a candidate. In isolation, I probably could live with this, but if it became a widely used tactic, the project would devolve into something I have no desire to be associated with. Moreover, I think that this position asks everyone else to cast legitimate votes so that you can manipulate the system to favor your pet candidates. I cannot accept that, as it strikes me as unfair to other voters. For example, you can't expect to favor even a legitimate HOF candidate like Bill Dahlen over Babe Ruth to get Dahlen elected without being asked to provide a reasonable justification for ranking Dahlen over Ruth. If you can provide a reasonable justification in that scenario, the ballot will stand. If not, you will be asked to make a change. I realize voters will sometimes have idiosyncratic choices, and I try to allow for that. However, a clear flouting of a consensus is apt to be met with a request that the ballot be justified pursuant to this rule. Certainly, a reasonable justification does not indicate in essence simply that you want Dahlen elected. Furthermore, if I invalidate multiple ballots by the same individual as failing to meet this rule, that individual will forever lose the right to have his/her ballots counted. Voters are encouraged to consider character, sportsmanship, and compliance with the rules and spirit of baseball in their rankings of players.

    12) I will post lists of eligible players and contributors before each election. If you have a question about the eligibility of a candidate, please ask. I will provide a list of future eligibility dates as well.

    13) My eligibility lists come from all persons in the BBF HOF, BBTF Hall of Merit, and Cooperstown, plus all persons getting a vote in a BBF HOF election in the past year and a half or in a BBWAA election. This is a relatively comprehensive list, and thus I must request that if you want another candidate included, you provide some justification for why said candidate is worthy of getting a vote in this project. The main area I think this might come into play is if a voter supports a person who was eligible for the final selections from the recent pre WWII or Negro League committees but not on my master list. That fact alone would serve as ample justification for putting said candidate on the list. We may learn more about Cuban ball or what have you and thus include others after a case is made for them, however. The contributor list is undoubtedly not as comprehensive, and this fact will be taken into consideration.

    14) Other than the sportsmanship and character issues, players are to be evaluated solely upon their play. I would prefer that if a player is qualified by his play standing alone that he be elected on that basis. However, a candidate may only be elected either as a contributor or a player, but not both. Contributors are the area where the entire body of work during his career in the sport, including his play, managing, scouting, executive, writing, broadcasting or other work in the sport is relevant. Contributors are to be ranked based on who the voter thinks is most worthy of induction into the Contributor group in this project.

    15) Any ballot with two (2) or more spots unfilled with eligible candidates is invalid. In the event of the listing of ineligible names, I will try to notify the voter so that he/she can correct the ballot before the end of the voting period. If the change is made timely, it will count. If not, and there are two or more invalid names, the ballot will not be considered valid. If there is only one, the ineligible name will be stricken and all names after it on the affected ballot will be moved up one spot.

    16) Any players listed beyond the 12th place for any ballot but the first (in which case it is 20th place) will be ignored. If more than one person is listed as tied for the last available place and the ballot is oversize, all names will be dropped, which may lead to the invalidation of the ballot.

    17) Ties are not permitted in ballot listings. I reserve the right to invalidate ballots for use of ties in the rankings, be it within a single ballot or over the course of several ballots. If the voter does not correct such a listing voluntarily, except in the case of an oversize ballot tie for the last eligible place, if do not invalidate the ballot, I will choose the placement of the two "tied" candidates, generally preferring the candidate preferred by the other voters.

    18) For any ties between candidates straddling the in/out line of selections, the first thing considered is the ranking of the candidates by the ballots cast. If there are more than two candidates tied, use a 2-1-0 or whatever is appropriate for the number of players tied system. If a voter does not list a candidate, he receives zero points in the tiebreaker procedure. Once one person separates from the tied group, restart with the remaining candidates until there are only as many candidates as the rules call for being elected. If they remain tied after this process, the candidate with the most votes received wins. If it is still tied after that, those with the most #1 votes as the next step, then the most #2 votes and so on to see if that breaks the tie. If not, we will induct all candidates who remain tied at that point.

    19) One thing we're going to have to be aware of is the timeline in the case of at least a few contributors. Two which jump out at me are Buck O'Neill, 1976, and Branch Rickey, 1946. I intend to eventually vote for both men, but in 1946, Jackie Robinson was still in Montreal. Really, Branch should wait until at least 1947 after Jackie's success in the majors to get credit for that move. If you think Rickey belongs in the top 5 in 1946 without his role in breaking the color line, that's fine--but he shouldn't get credit for that important success until it actually happened. Buck O'Neill did some important things up until 1976, but after that he was in Ken Burns' Baseball and he was instrumental in the establishment of the Negro Leagues Hall of Fame (both occurred in or around 1994). If you think he belongs based on accomplishments before those two things, that's perfectly acceptable, but please don't credit him with them before they actually happened.

    20) I will maintain a thread of the project's history and rules which will provide a listing of all elected candidates.

    21) Feel free to ask questions by either sending jalbright a PM, or by posting a question in voting thread
    Seen on a bumper sticker: If only closed minds came with closed mouths.
    Some minds are like concrete--thoroughly mixed up and permanently set.
    A Lincoln: I don't think much of a man who is not wiser today than he was yesterday.

  3. #3
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    The players who become eligible in 1965 are:

    Code:
    Gromek , Steve
    Gustine , Frank
    Hegan , Jim
    Lemon , Bob
    Musial , Stan
    Northey , Ron
    Sisti , Sibby
    Stephens , Vern
    Wynn , Early
    There are two contributors joining the list in 1965:
    Code:
    Hubbard , Cal
    Manley , Effa
    Seen on a bumper sticker: If only closed minds came with closed mouths.
    Some minds are like concrete--thoroughly mixed up and permanently set.
    A Lincoln: I don't think much of a man who is not wiser today than he was yesterday.

  4. #4
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    The 1964 player candidates who were not elected had these results in the that election:
    Code:
    players…………..	votes	points
    Beckwith, J	8	62
    Stovey , Harry	9	62
    Gore , George	7	49
    Carey , Max	7	42
    Gordon, Joe	8	37
    Hill , Pete……….	8	36
    Terry , Bill	4	34
    Grant , Frank	5	33
    Sutton , Ezra	6	28
    Start , Joe	3	27
    Bennett , C	4	26
    Doerr, Bobby	7	23
    Ferrell, Wes	3	23
    Thompson , S	2	21
    Galvin , Pud	5	20
    Klein, Chuck	2	20
    Joss , Addie	3	18
    Glasscock , J	3	17
    McGinnity , J	4	16
    Caruthers , B	4	15
    Starffin, V	3	14
    Duffy , Hugh	2	12
    Dean, Dizzy	2	10
    Smith, Hilton	1	10
    Faber , Red	1	9
    Berger , Wally	1	8
    Jennings , H	1	8
    Roush , Edd 	1	8
    Sewell , Joe	1	8
    Averill, Earl	1	7
    Dandridge, Ray	1	7
    Brown, Willard	1	6
    Keller , C	1	6
    Browning , Pete	1	5
    Wallace , Bobby	1	5
    McCormick , J	1	4
    Rizzuto , Phil	1	3
    Maranville , R	1	2
    Mendez , Jose	1	2
    Welch , Mickey	1	2
    Grimes , B	1	1
    Oms, Alejandro	1	1
    Richardson , H	1	1
    The 1964 contributor candidates who were not elected had these results in the that election:

    Code:
    contributor…………	votes	points
    Taylor , C. I.	6	26
    Weiss, George	9	22
    Connolly , Tom	7	21
    Chance , Frank	9	18
    Pearce, Dickey	2	8
    Bolden, Ed	2	7
    Caylor , O. P.	1	5
    Frick, Ford	1	5
    Ruppert , J	2	4
    Southworth, B	1	4
    Conlon , C	2	3
    Evans, Billy	1	3
    Mutrie, Jim	1	2
    Doubleday , A	1	1
    I strongly suggest that you pay attention to this list, as the leaders of the holdovers are likely to join any strong newcomer candidates as the leaders for winning induction.
    Seen on a bumper sticker: If only closed minds came with closed mouths.
    Some minds are like concrete--thoroughly mixed up and permanently set.
    A Lincoln: I don't think much of a man who is not wiser today than he was yesterday.

  5. #5
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    Members of the Best of Baseball Hall. Last election's inductees are in red.

    Players

    Code:
    Pete Alexander
    Cap Anson
    Luke Appling
    Frank Baker
    Ross Barnes
    Cool Papa Bell
    Lou Boudreau
    Dan Brouthers
    Mordecai Brown
    Ray Brown
    Jesse Burkett
    Oscar Charleston
    Fred Clarke
    John Clarkson
    Ty Cobb
    Mickey Cochrane
    Eddie Collins
    Jimmy Collins
    Roger Connor
    Stan Coveleski
    Sam Crawford
    Joe Cronin
    Bill Dahlen
    George Davis
    Ed Delahanty
    Bill Dickey
    Martin Dihigo
    Joe DiMaggio
    Buck Ewing
    Bob Feller
    Elmer Flick
    Willie Foster
    Jimmie Foxx
    Frankie Frisch
    Lou Gehrig
    Charlie Gehringer
    Josh Gibson
    Goose Goslin
    Hank Greenberg
    Heinie Groh
    Lefty Grove
    Stan Hack
    Billy Hamilton
    Gabby Hartnett
    Harry Heilmann
    Billy Herman
    Paul Hines
    Rogers Hornsby
    Carl Hubbell
    Monte Irvin
    Joe Jackson
    Grant "Home Run"Johnson
    Walter Johnson
    Tim Keefe
    Willie Keeler
    King Kelly
    Nap LaJoie
    Buck Leonard
    Pop Lloyd
    Ted Lyons
    Biz Mackey
    Sherry Magee
    Christy Mathewson
    Bid McPhee
    Joe Medwick
    Johnny Mize
    Kid Nichols
    Jim O'Rourke
    Mel Ott
    Satchel Paige
    Eddie Plank
    Charlie Radbourn
    Pee Wee Reese
    Jackie Robinson
    Bullet Joe Rogan
    Red Ruffing
    Amos Rusie
    Babe Ruth
    Louis Santop
    Al Simmons
    George Sisler
    Enos Slaughter
    Tris Speaker
    Turkey Stearnes
    Mule Suttles
    Cristobal Torriente
    Pie Traynor
    Dazzy Vance
    Arky Vaughan
    Rube Waddell
    Honus Wagner
    Ed Walsh
    Paul Waner
    John M. Ward
    Willie Wells
    Zack Wheat
    Deacon White
    Smoky Joe Williams
    Ted Williams
    Jud Wilson
    George Wright
    Cy Young
    Contributors

    Code:
    Doc Adams
    Ed Barrow
    Alexander Cartwright
    Henry Chadwick
    Charlie Commiskey
    Jim Creighton
    Rube Foster
    Clark Griffith
    Ned Hanlon
    William Hulbert
    Miller Huggins
    Ban Johnson
    Bill Klem
    Kenesaw Landis
    Connie Mack
    Larry MacPhail
    Joe McCarthy
    John McGraw
    Cum Posey
    A. J. Reach
    Francis Richter
    Branch Rickey
    Frank Selee
    Al Spalding
    Alfred Spink
    J. G. T. Spink
    Casey Stengel
    J. L. Wilkinson
    Harry Wright
    Seen on a bumper sticker: If only closed minds came with closed mouths.
    Some minds are like concrete--thoroughly mixed up and permanently set.
    A Lincoln: I don't think much of a man who is not wiser today than he was yesterday.

  6. #6
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    The complete list of eligible players:

    Code:
    Adams , Sparky
    Allen , Johnny
    Altrock , Nick
    Archer , Jimmy
    Arlett , Buzz
    Austin , Jimmy
    Averill , Earl
    Bancroft , Dave
    Barry , Jack
    Bartell , Dick
    Battin , Joe
    Beaumont , Ginger
    Beckley , Jake
    Beckwith , John
    Bender , Chief
    Bennett , Charlie
    Benton , Larry
    Berg , Moe
    Bergen , Marty
    Berger , Wally
    Berry , Charlie
    Bigbee , Carson
    Bishop , Max
    Blades , Ray
    Blue , Lu
    Bluege , Ossie
    Bodie , Ping
    Boley , Joe
    Bond , Tommy
    Bottomley , Jim
    Bradley , Bill
    Brecheen , Harry
    Breitenstein , Ted
    Bresnahan , Roger
    Bridges , Tommy
    Brown , Willard
    Browning , Pete
    Burns , George J.
    Bush  , Joe
    Bush , Donie
    Bush , Guy
    Cadore , Leon
    Camilli , Dolph
    Camnitz , Howie
    Carey , Max
    Carrigan , Bill
    Caruthers , Bob 
    Case , George
    Cavaretta , Phil
    Cepeda , Perucho
    Chance , Frank
    Chandler , Spud
    Chapman , Ben
    Chapman , Ray
    Chapman , Sam
    Chase , Hal
    Chesbro , Jack
    Childs , Cupid
    Cicotte , Eddie
    Cissell , Bill
    Clark , Watty
    Clarkson , Bus
    Coakley , Andy
    Collins , Shano
    Combs , Earle
    Conroy , Wid
    Coombs , Jack
    Cooper , Andy
    Cooper , Mort
    Cooper , Walker
    Cooper , Wilbur
    Cox , Billy
    Crandall , Doc
    Cravath , Gavvy
    Creighton , Jim
    Criger , Lou
    Critz , Hughie
    Cross , Lave
    Crowder , Al 
    Cruise , Walt
    Cuccinello , Tony
    Cummings , Candy
    Cuyler , Kiki
    Dandridge , Ray
    Danning , Harry
    Daubert , Jake
    Davis , Curt
    Davis , Harry
    Davis , Spud
    Day , Leon
    Dean, Dizzy
    Derringer , Paul
    DiMaggio , Dom
    Dinneen , Bill
    Doak , Bill
    Doerr , Bobby
    Donlin , Mike
    Donovan , Bill
    Dooin , Red
    Doyle , Jack 
    Doyle , Larry
    Duffy , Hugh
    Dugan , Joe
    Dunlap , Fred
    Dykes , Jimmy
    Earnshaw , George
    Easter, Luke
    Edwards , Hank
    Ehmke , Howard
    Elberfeld , Kid
    Elliott , Bob
    Elliott , Jumbo
    Ens , Jewel
    Evers , Johnny
    Faber , Red
    Falkenberg , Cy
    Ferrell , Rick
    Ferrell , Wes
    Fitzsimmons , Freddie
    Fletcher , Art
    Fonseca , Lew
    Foster , Eddie
    Fraser , Chick
    Galan , Augie
    Galvin , Pud
    Gelbert , Charlie
    Glasscock , Jack
    Gleason , Kid
    Gomez , Lefty
    Gonzalez , Mike
    Gordon , Joe
    Gore , George
    Gowdy , Hank
    Grant , Eddie
    Grant , Frank
    Grantham , George
    Grimes , Burleigh
    Grimm , Charlie
    Grissom , Marv
    Gromek , Steve
    Grove , Orval
    Gustine , Frank
    Haas , Mule
    Hafey , Chick
    Hahn , Noodles
    Haines , Jesse
    Hallahan , Bill
    Harder , Mel
    Hargrave , Bubbles
    Harris , Bucky
    Harris , Vic
    Hegan , Jim
    Henrich , Tommy
    Herman , Babe
    Herzog , Buck 
    Higgins , Mike
    Hill , Pete
    Hinchman , Bill
    Holmes , Tommy
    Hooper , Harry
    Hoy , Dummy
    Hoy, Dummy
    Hoyt , Waite
    Huggins , Miller
    Hutchinson , Fred
    Irwin , Charlie
    Jackman , Will
    Jennings , Hughie
    Johnson , Bob
    Johnson , Judy
    Jones , Charley
    Jones , Fielder
    Jones , Sam P.
    Jordan , Tim
    Joss , Addie
    Judge , Joe
    Jurges , Billy
    Kamm , Willie
    Kawakami , Tetsuharu
    Keller , Charlie
    Kelley , Joe
    Keltner , Ken
    Kerr , Dickie
    Killefer , Bill
    Kilroy , Matt
    Kinder , Ellis
    Klein , Chuck
    Kling , Johnny
    Knabe , Otto
    Kremer , Ray
    Kress , Red
    Kuhel , Joe
    Lange , Bill
    Larkin , Henry
    Latham , Arlie
    Lavagetto , Cookie
    Lazzeri , Tony
    Leach , Freddy
    Leach , Tommy
    Lee , Bill
    Leever , Sam
    Lemon , Bob
    Leonard , Emil (Dutch)
    Lewis , Duffy
    Lindstrom , Freddie
    Lobert , Hans
    Lombardi , Ernie
    Long , Herman
    Lopat , Ed
    Lopez , Al
    Lowe , Bobby
    Lucas , Red
    Lundy , Dick
    Luque , Dolf
    Lyons , Denny
    Maglie , Sal
    Mancuso , Gus
    Manush , Heinie
    Maranville , Rabbit
    Marberry , Firpo
    Marion , Marty
    Marquard , Rube
    Martin , Pepper
    Mathews , Bobby
    Mays , Carl
    McAleer , Jimmy
    McCarthy , Tommy
    McCormick , Frank
    McCormick , Jim
    McGinnity , Joe
    McGowan , Bill
    McInnis , Stuffy
    McLean , Larry
    McManus , Marty
    McVey , Cal
    Meadows , Lee
    Mendez , Jose
    Meusel , Bob
    Milan , Clyde
    Miller , Bing
    Miller , Dots
    Miller , Hack
    Monroe , Bill
    Moore , Dobie
    Moore , Jo-Jo
    Moore , Terry
    Moran , Pat
    Mostil , Johnny
    Mulcahy , Hugh
    Mullane , Tony
    Mungo , Van
    Murphy , Danny
    Murray , Red
    Musial , Stan
    Myer , Buddy
    Nehf , Art
    Newsom , Bobo
    Nicholson , Bill
    Northey , Ron
    O'Doul , Lefty
    Oeschger , Joe
    O'Farrell , Bob
    O'Leary , Charlie
    Oms , Alejandro
    O'Neill , Buck
    O'Neill , Steve
    O'Neill , Tip
    Orr , Dave
    Pabor , Charlie
    Paskert , Dode
    Pearce , Dickey
    Pearson , Monte
    Peckinpaugh , Roger
    Peitz , Heinie
    Pennock , Herb
    Perdue , Hub
    Perkins , Cy
    Pesky , Johnny
    Phillippe , Deacon 
    Pike , Lip
    Pipp , Wally
    Poles , Spotswood
    Pruett , Hub
    Quinn , Jack
    Raschi , Vic
    Raymond , Bugs
    Redding , Dick
    Reiser , Pete
    Remsen , Jack
    Reynolds , Allie
    Rice , Sam
    Richardson , Hardy
    Ring , Jimmy
    Ritchey , Claude
    Rixey , Eppa
    Rizzuto , Phil
    Robertson , Dave
    Roe , Preacher
    Rolfe , Red
    Rommel , Eddie
    Root , Charlie
    Roush , Edd 
    Rucker , Nap
    Rudolph , Dick
    Ruel , Muddy
    Ryan  , Jimmy
    Sain , Johnny
    Sauer , Hank
    Schacht , Al
    Schaefer , Germany
    Schalk , Ray
    Schang , Wally
    Schreckengost , Ossie
    Schulte , Frank
    Scott , Everett
    Scott , Jack
    Selkirk , George
    Severeid , Hank
    Sewell , Joe
    Sewell , Luke
    Sewell , Rip
    Seymour , Cy
    Sheckard , Jimmy
    Sherdel , Bill
    Shocker , Urban
    Sisti , Sibby
    Smith , Earl
    Smith , Hilton
    Smith , Sherry
    Sparks , Tully
    Stahl , Jake
    Stanky , Eddie
    Starffin , Victor
    Start , Joe
    Steinfeldt , Harry
    Stephens , Vern
    Stephenson , Riggs
    Stovey , Harry
    Street , Gabby
    Suhr , Gus
    Sukeforth , Clyde
    Sutton , Ezra
    Sweeney , Bill
    Tannehill , Jesse
    Taylor , Ben
    Tebbetts , Birdie
    Tenney , Fred
    Terry , Bill
    Thevenow , Tommy
    Thomas , Ira
    Thompson , Sam
    Tiernan , Mike
    Tinker , Joe
    Tobin , Jim
    Toney , Fred
    Trouppe , Quincy
    Trout , Dizzy
    Trucks , Virgil
    Turner , Terry
    Uhle , George
    Van Haltren , George
    Vander Meer , Johnny
    Veach , Bobby
    Vernon , Mickey
    Walberg , Rube
    Walker , Harry
    Wallace , Bobby
    Walters , Bucky
    Wambsganss , Bill
    Waner , Lloyd
    Warfield , Frank
    Warneke , Lon
    Welch , Mickey
    Werber , Billy
    West , Sam
    White , Sol
    White , Will 
    Whitehill , Earl
    Williams , Cy
    Williams , Ken
    Williamson , Ned
    Willis , Vic
    Wilson , Hack
    Wilson , Jimmie
    Witt , Whitey
    Wood , Joe
    Wright , Glenn
    Wyatt , Whit 
    Wynn , Early
    Yerkes , Steve
    York , Rudy
    Young , Pep
    Youngs , Ross
    Zachary , Tom
    Zimmer , Chief
    The complete list of eligible contributors:

    Code:
    Abe , Iso
    Bancroft , Frank
    Bolden, Ed
    Bulkely , Morgan
    Busch , Augie
    Cambria , Joe
    Carrigan, Bill
    Caylor , O. P.
    Chance , Frank
    Chandler, Happy
    Conlan , Jocko
    Conlon , Charles
    Connolly , Tom
    Cooper , Andy
    Cummings , Candy
    Dinneen , Bill
    Doubleday , Abner
    Dreyfuss , Barney
    Dunn , Jack
    Dyer , Eddie
    Dykes , Jimmy
    Elias , Al Munro
    Evans, Billy
    Foster , John B.
    Frick, Ford
    Fullerton , Hugh
    Giles , Warren
    Gleason , Kid
    Gonzalez , Mike
    Greenlee, Gus
    Grimm, Charlie
    Haney , Fred
    Harridge, Willie
    Harris , Bucky
    Hillerich , John
    Hubbard , Cal
    Jennings , Hughie
    Krichell, Paul
    Lardner , Ring
    Leavitt, Jr. , Charles W.
    Luque , Dolf
    Manley , Effa
    McCarthy , Tommy
    McKechnie, Bill
    Mendez , Jose
    Mills , A. G.
    Moran , Pat
    Mutrie , Jim
    Navin , Frank
    Norworth, Jack
    O'Doul, Lefty
    O'Neill, Steve
    Osborn , Frank
    Pasquel, Jorge
    Pompez , Alex 
    Rice, Grantland
    Robinson , Wilbert
    Ruppert , Jacob
    Shibe , Ben
    Shoriki, Matsutaro
    Southworth, Billy
    Stallings , George
    Street, Gabby
    Taylor , C. I.
    Thayer , Ernest
    Tyson, Ty
    Warfield , Frank
    Weiss, George
    White , Sol
    Wilson , Horace
    Seen on a bumper sticker: If only closed minds came with closed mouths.
    Some minds are like concrete--thoroughly mixed up and permanently set.
    A Lincoln: I don't think much of a man who is not wiser today than he was yesterday.

  7. #7
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    My ballot

    Players
    1. Stan Musial
    2. Harry Stovey
    3. John Beckwith
    4. Early Wynn
    5. Joe McGinnity
    6. Victor Starffin
    7. Bobby Doerr
    8. Pud Galvin
    9. Joe Gordon
    10. Pete Hill
    11. Burleigh Grimes
    12. George Gore

    Contributors
    1. C. I. Taylor
    2. Tom Connolly
    3. Frank Chance
    4. George Weiss
    5. Dickey Pearce

    Dickey Pearce joins my contributor ballot. On the player side, two newly eligible names join: Stan Musial and Early Wynn. George Gore completes my ballot.
    Seen on a bumper sticker: If only closed minds came with closed mouths.
    Some minds are like concrete--thoroughly mixed up and permanently set.
    A Lincoln: I don't think much of a man who is not wiser today than he was yesterday.

  8. #8
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    1) Musial
    2) Bennett
    3) Beckwith
    4) Gore
    5) Carey
    6) Galvin
    7) Sutton
    8) Gordon
    9) Maranville
    10) Stovey
    11) Lemon
    12) Wynn

    --Backlog leaders; Frank Grant, Pete Hill, Jack Glasscock, Joe Sewell, Bob Caruthers, Dizzy Dean and Wes Ferrell. These are not in any particular order, but one of them will join my ballot next time we lack enough newcomers to fill it. Interested in any info their supporters may have to get one of them to the top of the class.

    Contributors
    1) Pearce
    2) Chance
    3) Bolden
    4) Weiss
    5) Evans

  9. #9
    Monte Irvin was voted into this HOF, and seems a very qualified inductee.
    I also included him on my ballot.

    Monte had 8 MLB seasons, and one time led the league in a hitting stat, RBI.
    None of his career marks are outstanding, due partly to a short time, and due partly to no prime years.
    Obviously the voters herein had to adjust his actual MLB stats, and extrapolate, expand, or estimate how he would have performed, and that seems a reasonable approach.

    For whatever frame of references one has, or whatever estimation process one uses, it would seem proper the same estimation would be acceptable for a player with much better single season peaks and some truly great career marks, who had also a short MLB career, cut short by a death at the prime age of 31.

    Some can see Monte Irvin, based on slightly above average MLB stats, being projected a HOFer because of unusual circumstances,
    However, some can not project the all time WHIP leader, the second best career ERA, and several league leading performances, into this HOF.

    Perhaps I place too much significance on having the very best ever, and several other very high positions in some pitching career official MLB stats, and am unfair to feel it might be hypocritical, to overlook those, and to project and estimate unrecorded, spotty, anecdotal, non MLB performance into the HOF.

  10. #10
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    Quote Originally Posted by jaxxr View Post
    Monte Irvin was voted into this HOF, and seems a very qualified inductee.
    I also included him on my ballot.

    Monte had 8 MLB seasons, and one time led the league in a hitting stat, RBI.
    None of his career marks are outstanding, due partly to a short time, and due partly to no prime years.
    Obviously the voters herein had to adjust his actual MLB stats, and extrapolate, expand, or estimate how he would have performed, and that seems a reasonable approach.

    For whatever frame of references one has, or whatever estimation process one uses, it would seem proper the same estimation would be acceptable for a player with much better single season peaks and some truly great career marks, who had also a short MLB career, cut short by a death at the prime age of 31.

    Some can see Monte Irvin, based on slightly above average MLB stats, being projected a HOFer because of unusual circumstances,
    However, some can not project the all time WHIP leader, the second best career ERA, and several league leading performances, into this HOF.

    Perhaps I place too much significance on having the very best ever, and several other very high positions in some pitching career official MLB stats, and am unfair to feel it might be hypocritical, to overlook those, and to project and estimate unrecorded, spotty, anecdotal, non MLB performance into the HOF.
    There's some very big differences: Irvin was playing those other years, and prevented from doing so in the majors due solely to his skin color. Personally, I find it offensive to bar somebody on that basis, and giving him his due is what makes an attempt to evaluate what he did in those years he was excluded necessary IMHO.

    Joss suffered a terrible fate, but many people fall ill or are injured, especially pitchers. My approach is to not give any extra credit for what could have happened but for injury, because there's way too many guys for whom that argument could be made. Chino Smith or Dobie Moore get no credit in my book for their lives after their careers effectively ended. They either rise or fall on what they did during their playing careers. Dickie Thon could have been a great one had he not been beaned. He might not have been. Ray Chapman either makes it on what he did before his fatal beaning or not at all. So, too, does Joss. As I indicated before, I view Joss as no better than Jack Chesbro among his peers when one considers some other statistical approaches than you do, jaxxr. I'm not voting in Chesbro, and I won't be voting for Joss. If others join you and elect him, I'll disagree, but I'll continue.
    Seen on a bumper sticker: If only closed minds came with closed mouths.
    Some minds are like concrete--thoroughly mixed up and permanently set.
    A Lincoln: I don't think much of a man who is not wiser today than he was yesterday.

  11. #11
    Jim, you are certainly entitled to your opinions,
    I do respect you views, but have difficulty understanding "what if" estimates appropriateness in only certain cases.

    " Personally, I find it offensive to bar somebody on that basis, and giving him his due is what makes an attempt to evaluate what he did in those years he was excluded necessary IMHO."

    I do not disagree with those concepts, and do not find it offensive, but perhaps unfortunate, that we can exclude THE all time WHIP leader, the second best ERA ever, who had several actual MLB league leading seasons as well,
    and to somehow equate his dying at the age of 31, as very similar to a long injury and /or segregation shortcomings...

    I suppose, if we all valued or interpreted events exactly the same, this would be quite a boring exercise.

  12. #12
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    There's no right or wrong answers in how to deal with injuries/deaths.

    The problem I have with injury "what ifs" are: 1) there's way too many of them, and 2) very often, like the beanings, they have to do with the way the player plays (crowding the plate, etc.). It's too much to sort out. When it comes to the color line, I'm trying to make sense of what did happen. The numbers aren't translatable one to one--but Irvin did play, and was a dominant force in the leagues in which he played. This may not satisfy you or some others, but it's how I choose to draw the line. Similarly, I will give my best estimates of what the meaning of what Japanese players did in Japan in MLB terms simply to put those players in context.

    Like you say, if we all had the same perspective, there wouldn't be much point to having projects like this. Joss has things to point to, and you and others have every right to point to them and try to persuade others that those things outweigh the issues I have with his candidacy. Truth is, even with the issues I do have about him, Joss is someone who I regard as well worthy of discussion.
    Seen on a bumper sticker: If only closed minds came with closed mouths.
    Some minds are like concrete--thoroughly mixed up and permanently set.
    A Lincoln: I don't think much of a man who is not wiser today than he was yesterday.

  13. #13
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    01. Stan Musial
    02. Harry Stovey
    03. Joe Gordon
    04. Wally Berger
    05. Wes Ferrell
    06. John Beckwith
    07. Pete Hill
    08. Charlie Bennett
    09. Bobby Doerr
    10. Phil Rizzuto
    11. Victor Starffin
    12. Joe McGinnity

    01. C.I. Taylor
    02. Tom Connolly
    03. Dickey Pearce
    04. Frank Chance
    05. George Weiss

  14. #14
    Congratulations to Clark Griffith, a good candidate player inevitably recognized first for his entire baseball career.


    This year I take the path of least resistance and nod to those who election is imminent. C.I. Taylor, John Beckwith, and Harry Stovey fill the openings at the ends of my ballots.

    1 George Weiss
    2 Tom Connolly
    3 Jake Ruppert
    4 Charles Conlon
    5 C.I.Taylor


    Briefly I was Joe Gordon's best friend and I am Hardy Richardson's best friend of course. Probably they are now fixtures on my ballot. Richardson, Gordon, Bobby Doerr, and Frank Grant are numbers 16-17-18-19 in the Hall of Merit ranking of secondbasemen (with Roberto Alomar unranked). It's remarkable that all four are eligible here together.

    1 Stan Musial
    2 George Gore
    3 Joe Start
    4 Jack Glasscock
    5 Ezra Sutton
    6 Charlie Bennett
    7 Max Carey
    8 Pete Hill
    9 Joe Gordon
    10 Hardy Richardson
    11 John Beckwith
    12 Harry Stovey


    A strong balanced team from the 1880s is still on the board and the imminent election of Harry Stovey will not undo it. Take a look.
    Code:
    	(Harry Stovey)	George Gore	Sam Thompson
    	Charley Jones	Pete Browning
    
    		Jack Glasscock	Hardy Richardson
    
    Ezra Sutton					(Harry Stovey)
    						Joe Start
    			Bob Caruthers
    			Mickey Welch
    			Jim McCormick
    			Jim Galvin
    
    			Charlie Bennett
    Frank Grant is occasionally available by loan from the 1890s, too.

    Jones, Sutton, and Start are also members of the 1870s team which no longer takes the field.
    Last edited by Paul Wendt; 01-30-2010 at 02:13 PM.

  15. #15
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    --Joe Start was at best the 4th best 1B of the 1880s. Being the 4th best at a position from that early era is not a strong case for me. Of course, Start was - by baseball standards - an old man in the 1880s. His real claim is that he was (probably, records are not exactly clear here) the best 1B of the 1860s. It is his extreme longevity that makes him a viable, if less than compelling, candidate IMO.

  16. #16
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    Being even arguably the fourth best first baseman of a decade which began when Start had already passed his 37th birthday is significant evidence of a top talent. I'm not sure how to make sense of all of Start's career, which is why I haven't pushed his cause as yet. That said, I expect to support his case at some point.
    Seen on a bumper sticker: If only closed minds came with closed mouths.
    Some minds are like concrete--thoroughly mixed up and permanently set.
    A Lincoln: I don't think much of a man who is not wiser today than he was yesterday.

  17. #17
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    Recently I re-evaluated some Negro league and other players which will result in a change in my ranking.

    Players:

    1. Stan Musial
    2. John Beckwith
    3. Ezra Sutton
    4. Harry Stovey
    5. Early Wynn
    6. George Gore
    7. Victor Starffin
    8. Joe Gordon
    9. Frank Grant
    10. Addie Joss
    11. Max Carey
    12. Hilton Smith

    Contributors:

    1. C. I. Taylor
    2. George Weiss
    3. Tom Connolly
    4. Frank Chance
    5. Dickey Pearce

  18. #18
    Players

    1. Stan Musial
    2. Sam Thompson
    3. Chuck Klein
    4. Harry Stovey
    5. Bill Terry
    6. Hugh Duffy
    7. Pud Galvin
    8. Pete Browning
    9. Jim McCormick
    10. Bob Caruthers
    11. Mickey Welch
    12. Early Wynn

    In the wings, Joe McGinnity, Earl Averill, Tony Mullane, Bob Johnson. John Beckwith, I don't know. Is he like Traynor? If so, well, I'm not in Traynor-territory yet.


    Contributors

    1. Ford Frick
    2. Cal Hubbard
    3. George Weiss
    4. C.I. Taylor
    5. Charles Conlon
    Last edited by dgarza; 01-30-2010 at 04:12 PM.

  19. #19
    Quote Originally Posted by leecemark View Post
    --Joe Start was at best the 4th best 1B of the 1880s. Being the 4th best at a position from that early era is not a strong case for me. Of course, Start was - by baseball standards - an old man in the 1880s. His real claim is that he was (probably, records are not exactly clear here) the best 1B of the 1860s. It is his extreme longevity that makes him a viable, if less than compelling, candidate IMO.
    Quote Originally Posted by jalbright View Post
    Being even arguably the fourth best first baseman of a decade which began when Start had already passed his 37th birthday is significant evidence of a top talent. I'm not sure how to make sense of all of Start's career, which is why I haven't pushed his cause as yet. That said, I expect to support his case at some point.
    Start's career is hard to judge, as it is divided into 3 distinct parts.

    His 1860s were most likely and expected his best years, but the 1860s are hard to judge.

    His 1870s were yo-yo years. He would go from good to below average often.
    Depending on how you view Cal McVey, Start may have been the best 1B of the 1870s, but his competition was entirely weak
    150 games at 1B
    Code:
                                          
    Rk           Player OPS+   G From   To
    1         Cal McVey  152 530 1871 1879
    2         Joe Start  121 516 1871 1879
    3     Everett Mills  100 337 1871 1876
    4     Charlie Gould   92 221 1871 1877
    5       Tim Murnane   91 308 1872 1878
    6    Herman Dehlman   61 307 1872 1877
    Like the 1870s, his 1880s were good, but not great. I'd say he's clearly out of the Top 5 1B for that decade. He did not play much as was merely an OK defensive player.
    500 games at 1B
    Code:
                                             
    Rk             Player OPS+    G From   To
    1       Dan Brouthers  183  941 1880 1889
    2        Roger Connor  166 1083 1880 1889
    3            Dave Orr  165  684 1883 1889
    4           Cap Anson  159 1089 1880 1889
    5        Harry Stovey  151 1066 1880 1889
    6         John Reilly  136  874 1880 1889
    7           Joe Start  120  555 1880 1886
    8        John Morrill  115  992 1880 1889
    9       Bill Phillips  109  957 1880 1888
    10   Charlie Comiskey   95  895 1882 1889
    11         Sid Farrar   92  816 1883 1889
    Start is not quite HOF material in my book; very good, but not HOF great.
    I'd judge his entire career to be more akin to Mickey Vernon, Dolph Camilli, Gil Hodges, Andres Galarraga, Norm Cash, Jack Fournier, or Jack Clark.
    If I wanted to really stretch it, I could have my arm twisted to say Tony Perez, Carlos Delgado, Steve Garvey, or Jim Bottomley, but I'm not really ready to go that far yet.

  20. #20
    Quote Originally Posted by leecemark View Post
    --Joe Start was at best the 4th best 1B of the 1880s. Being the 4th best at a position from that early era is not a strong case for me. Of course, Start was - by baseball standards - an old man in the 1880s. His real claim is that he was (probably, records are not exactly clear here) the best 1B of the 1860s. It is his extreme longevity that makes him a viable, if less than compelling, candidate IMO.
    Above I have added a note,
    "Jones, Sutton, and Start are also members of the 1870s team which no longer takes the field."

    At the same time I have added Jim McCormick and Mickey Welch to that so-called strong balanced team from the 1880s.

  21. #21
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    Start has been a fixture on my ballot since 1941; mine was one of five votes he received in that election.

    We don't know exactly his numbers for the first third of his career. But from his reputation, and his numbers later, he must've been one of the best pre-1871.

    All players with OPS+ of 120, age 34-on, 600+ G, through 1924.
    Code:
    Rk Player      OPS+  G   PA  From  To 
    1 Honus Wagner 139 1330 5507 1908 1917 
    2 Roger Connor 133  662 2917 1892 1897 
    3 Nap Lajoie   132  994 4019 1909 1916 
    4 Cap Anson    132 1466 6484 1886 1897 
    5 Fred Clarke  129  696 2890 1907 1915 
    6 Joe Start    127  742 3318 1877 1886 
    7 Jake Beckley 123  644 2730 1902 1907 
    8 Jim O'Rourke 123 1047 4610 1885 1904
    That's some pretty fast company; all are in the Hall of Fame and the BBFHOF except for Start (who was elected to the Hall of Merit in 1912). Actually, Start was probably more reknowned for his fielding, at a time when 1B was a "glove" position more than a "bat" position.
    Last edited by Freakshow; 01-30-2010 at 06:06 PM.
    Eradicate, wipe out and abolish redundancy.

    Free El Duque!(and Mark Mulder) -- discover how the HOF rules are cheating this renowned member of Torre's Yankees dynasty and ask the HOF to include him on the ballot for the next BBWAA election.

  22. #22
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    Quote Originally Posted by dgarza View Post
    John Beckwith, I don't know. Is he like Traynor? If so, well, I'm not in Traynor-territory yet.
    John Beckwith was very little like Traynor. He didn't have the glove that Traynor had, though he did play a lot of shortstop in the Negro Leagues. He hit for averages Traynor liked, and probably would have walked a fair amount more than Traynor mainly because a) Traynor rarely took a walk, and b) Beckwith had power, so pitchers had to be more careful with him. That power difference is huge, as Traynor had 58 career homers--a total I think Beckwith would have gotten in two no better than average years.

    Here's what I have on him in my musings thread:

    John Beckwith

    His list of accolades is short, which I would ascribe as largely due to his prickly personality:
    1) Elected to Baseball Think Factory's "Hall of Merit";
    2) Second team in the Pittsburgh Courier poll in a "utility" role;
    3) finished 36th in the SABR poll ranking Negro League luminaries; and
    4) Elected to the BBF HOF.

    Everybody agrees the man could flat out hit. In 119 at bats against major leaguers, he hit .311. The Baseball Think Factory guys project that for his career he was a 333/387/522 hitter who would have amassed 2451 hits. There's no one who hit .300 for his career while slugging .500 for his career with over 2000 career hits who has failed to make Cooperstown. Big John bests those marks easily.

    The BTF guys translate those career marks to 315 career win shares, 136 in his best five consecutive seasons and a top three of 30, 28 and 27. I'd say those marks put him behind Brooks Robinson (355 career; 130 best 5 consecutive; and top three of 33, 27 and 25) and Stan Hack (318 career, 140 best 5 consecutive; and a top three of 34, 33 and 31). However, those marks easily best Pie Traynor's 271 career, 119 best five consecutive and a top three of 28, 26 and 26.

    There are some other key points of evidence that I'd like to mention: John Holway named him an all-star five times in the days before a Negro League all-star game, and also named him an MVP once. In the Negro Leagues, he led in average and homers once each, and in the California Winter League, he led in homers twice.

    William McNeil on page 95 of Cool Papas and Double Duties writes:
    Beckwith was a big moody individual, standing 6' 3" tall and weighing in at a muscular 230 pounds, he was ready to fight at the slightest affront. he battled with his teammates, with players on other teams, and with umpires . . . . As a result, the powerful slugger moved around frequently, playing with no less tha 14 teams over a storied 23 year career . . . [Some, though] thought Beckwith's [reputation for a] bad attitude was a bum rap.
    The fact he served as a manager would also seem to indicate his reputation was a bit overblown.

    Riley on page 70 of his Biographical Encyclopedia of the Negro Leagues says:
    During his prime, Beckwith was regarded as one ot the top players by his peers, and he possessed sufficient versatility afield to play almost any position. However he did not excel [defensively] at any position.
    Beckwith was amazing with a bat in his hand. Listen to this from William McNeil's Baseball's Other Stars, page 59:
    His .356 career batting average, one of the highest ever recorded in the Negro Leagues, included a league leading .430 om 1930. He also captured two home run crowns in '30 and '31. Beckwith's extra base output was awesome, averaging 33 doubles, eight triples and 30 home runs for every 550 at bats [in his career].
    I'll also add this by AG2004:
    1. Was he ever regarded as the best player in baseball? Did anybody, while he was active, ever suggest that he was the best player in baseball?

    No.

    2. Was he the best player on his team?

    During his prime, with the exception of the Harrisburg Giants years (they had Oscar Charleston), he usually was. However, he played for the Chicago American Giants, Baltimore Black Sox, Harrisburg Giants, and Homestead Grays during a five-year period in his prime.

    3. Was he the best player in baseball at his position? Was he the best player in the league at his position?

    Cobb’s projections indicate that Beckwith would have had more win shares than any major league 3B in 1923, 1924, 1925, 1929, and 1931, and would have finished second in 1921, 1922, and 1927. There were ten seasons when Beckwith’s win share projections would have ranked him higher than any AL third baseman (including 1928 and 1930). He was the best 3B in the Negro Leagues during the 1920s, and possibly the best in baseball as well.

    4. Did he have an impact on a number of pennant races?

    Not really.

    5. Was he good enough that he could play regularly after passing his prime?

    Yes.

    6. Is he the very best baseball player in history who is not in the Hall of Fame?

    He is not the best player outside the BBFHOF.

    7. Are most players who have comparable statistics in the Hall of Fame?

    I’m using Chris Cobb’s partially regressed figures; in Cobb’s opinion, the fully regressed projections push the value of Beckwith’s best individual seasons down too far, although they don’t affect the value of his five best consecutive seasons.

    Career win shares, 3B: Tommy Leach 329, Graig Nettles 322, Ron Santo 322, BECKWITH 318, Stan Hack 318, Home Run Baker 301, Buddy Bell 299. This is generally BBFHOF territory.

    Best three seasons, 3B: Stan Hack 98, Sal Bando 96, Heinie Groh 95, BECKWITH 92, Bobby Bonilla 91, Paul Molitor 89, Darrell Evans 87, Tommy Leach 87, Howard Johnson 87, Ken Boyer 86, Brooks Robinson 85, Art Devlin 85. Beckwith is in the cutoff area.

    Best five consecutive seasons, 3B: Sal Bando 143, Stan Hack 140, BECKWITH 136, Paul Molitor 133, Howard Johnson 133, Bobby Bonilla 132, Ken Boyer 131, Brooks Robinson 130, Jimmie Collins 129. Again, Beckwith is in good company.

    8. Do the player's numbers meet Hall of Fame standards?

    We don’t have adequate information to answer this question. However, while he is not in Cooperstown, Beckwith is a member of the Hall of Merit.

    9. Is there any evidence to suggest that the player was significantly better or worse than is suggested by his statistics?

    Beckwith may have been a disruptive influence on his teams.

    10. Is he the best player at his position who is eligible for the Hall of Fame?

    One could make the argument that he is the best 3B outside the BBFHOF. Of the players at his position with at least 290 win shares (earned or, for Negro Leaguers, MLE equivalents), Beckwith easily has the best peak.

    11. How many MVP-type seasons did he have? Did he ever win an MVP award? If not, how many times was he close?

    He had two seasons which project to 30+ win shares. Holway lists him as his Eastern MVP for 1925.

    12. How many All-Star-type seasons did he have? How many All-Star games did he play in? Did most of the players who played in this many All-Star games go into the Hall of Fame?

    Holway lists Beckwith as an All-Star four times. However, Beckwith had nine seasons which project to 20+ win shares. Having nine such seasons is a good sign for Beckwith.

    13. If this man were the best player on his team, would it be likely that the team could win the pennant?

    At his prime, yes.

    14. What impact did the player have on baseball history? Was he responsible for any rule changes? Did he introduce any new equipment? Did he change the game in any way?

    Not that I know of.

    15. Did the player uphold the standards of sportsmanship and character that the Hall of Fame, in its written guidelines, instructs us to consider?

    Beckwith once punched out teammate Bill Holland after Holland criticized him for making an error.

    On the other hand, Beckwith was generally the manager of his teams from 1924 to 1942, so Bill James’ and Riley’s assessments of his character is excessively negative. He did jump from team to team very often in the 1920s, probably because he wasn’t willing to accept poor treatment or a lower salary than he thought he was worth. Al Fennar, who knew Beckwith for 25 years, admitted that Beckwith had a temper and would jump all over slackers, but would help young players who worked hard.

    CONCLUSION: If Beckwith’s character were really as bad as Bill James described, then there would be an argument for leaving him out despite his record. But James got his information secondhand, and, in this case, the information he received was very poor. Beckwith belongs in the BBFHOF.
    Last edited by jalbright; 01-31-2010 at 06:56 AM.
    Seen on a bumper sticker: If only closed minds came with closed mouths.
    Some minds are like concrete--thoroughly mixed up and permanently set.
    A Lincoln: I don't think much of a man who is not wiser today than he was yesterday.

  23. #23
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    Thanks. I also believe this is a fine time to elect Beckwith. Early returns sure point to a Musial-Beckwith-Stovey ticket.

  24. #24
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    1. Stan Musial
    2. Bob Caruthers
    3. Bill Terry
    4. Charlie Bennett
    5. Jack Glasscock
    6. Joe Gordon
    7. Max Carey
    8. John Beckwith
    9. Early Wynn
    10. Harry Stovey
    11. Ezra Sutton
    12. Bobby Doerr

    1. O.P. Caylor
    2. Connolly
    3. Chance
    4. Weiss
    5. Etta Manley

  25. #25
    1. Stan Musial
    2. Max Carey
    3. Sam Thompson
    4. Edd Roush
    5. Frank Grant
    6. Harry Stovey
    7. Pete Hill
    8. Bobby Doerr
    9. John Beckwith
    10. Dizzy Dean
    11. Bill Terry
    12. Earl Averill

    Contributors

    1. Frank Chance
    2. Tom Connolly
    3. Billy Evans
    4. C.I. Taylor
    5. George Weiss
    Bill Tom George Mark Bob Ernie Soupy Dick Alex Sparky
    Joe Gary MCA Emanuel Sonny Dave Earl Stan
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    Robin Bill JEDI

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