MVP and CY adjusted for PED

[micsmith]

Mike Greenwell claimed he should be given the MVP award from 1988 when Jose Canseco later confessed to using steroids (that presumably helped him put up the performance that won him the award.)

If MLB had retroactively given the major awards to players who did not use PEDs (or, for the purposes of this thread, players not suspected of using PEDs) then howow would this change your views on these players and their Hall of Fame chances?

Here is a run-down of the changes that would occur if MLB stripped juicers of their awards:

1986-Clemens won the AL Cy and MVP, but was probably not juicing at this time
1987-Clemens won the AL Cy, but was probably not juicing at this time
1988- Canseco juiced so AL MVP to Mike Greenwell
1989
1990-Bonds won the NL MVP but was probably not juicing at this time
1991-Clemens won the AL Cy but was probably not juicing at this time
1992-Bonds won the NL MVP, but was probably not juicing at this time
1993-Bonds won the NL MVP, but was probably not juicing at this time
1994
1995-Mo Vaughn juiced so the AL MVP to Albert Belle
1996-Ken Caminiti juiced so the NL MVP to Mike Piazza; Juan Gonzalez (do not know, but), AL MVP to Alex Rodriguez (not juicing yet)
1997-Probably Clemens first year juicing. AL Cy to Randy Johnson
1998-Sosa, Clemens, and possibly JuanGon all on the juice, AND McGwire who was runner-up to Sosa, so...Moises Alou, Nomar Garciappara, and Pedro Martinez win the awards.
1999
2000-Jason Giambi juiced so AL MVP to Frank Thomas
2001-Roger Clemens juiced, so Mark Mulder wins the AL Cy and the NL MVP - Bonds juiced, Sosa juiced, so Luis Gonzalez wins the NL MVP (his numbers are fishy, so perhaps Albert Pujols wins the NL MVP); and the AL MVP...Miguel Tejada won, but.....(and the runner-up was A-Rod!), so perhaps Alfonso Soriano wins the award
2002
2003-Bonds, A-Rod, and Eric Gagne all stripped, so Pujols, Carlos Delgado, and Jason Schmidt win
2004-Bonds and Clemens again, so new winners are Adrian Beltre and Randy Johnson
2005-A-Rod claims he was off the juice, but...Vladimir Guerrero gets it (the runner-up was David Ortiz who was juicin)
2006
2007 A-Rod claims he was off the juice but....Magglio Ordonez gets the award
2008
2009-Lincecum has got to be roidin (just kidding)

So, in retrospect,
Randy Johnson should have won a 6th and 7th Cy
Pedro should have won a 4th Cy
Frank Thomas should have won a third MVP
Vlad should have won a second MVP
A-Rod would have been stripped of one MVP, but would have picked up another won
Pujols should have won his fourth and fifth MVP

I think Delgado's MVP would have pushed him over the edge and into the Hall into the minds of many voters, same for Albert Belle.
Nomar would have more support with his MVP
Piazza would have gotten the MVP he deserved.
And who would have guessed that Alou, Soriano, and Mulder would have the hardware?


I would say this overall does not change the picture much with the exception of 2 players: Carlos Delgado and Juan Gonzalez.

In light of the recent induction of two corner outfielders (Rice and Dawson), Juan Gonzalez looks like a pretty good candidate to get into the Hall, especially considering his 2 MVPs. He helped the Rangers to their only postseasons while crushing the ball (over 400 HR in very few AB). He was one of the greatest RBI machines in history and he hit for a pretty high average. He did not play much the second half of his career, but when he did, he was incredible.

I see Delgado as a slam-dunk HOFer, but many disagree. I think with an MVP, fewer would disagree. The funny thing is, he is one of the few (along with Mike Greenwell and Mike Piazza) who lost out to guys who have openly admitted to using PEDs.

[dgarza]

This does not belong in the HOF forum

[RuthMayBond]

If you're gonna "adjust" them on speculative info, why not award them to the "non-roider" who actually deserved them rather than the mis-voting?

[Los Bravos]

You've made a note of some of them, but you have some Miss Congenalities who you move up to MVP status who were probably doing it, too. One of the many ways that the game was warped by these people and their actions.

[GiambiJuice]

who's to say bonds, clemens, etc. don't win some of those wards even if they hadn't been juicing?

[Matthew C.]

who's to say bonds, clemens, etc. don't win some of those wards even if they hadn't been juicing?

Or say that clean Bonds wins several more in the mid/late 90's if Camanitti, Sosa, and others are "banned." The first list makes way too many assumptions regarding who wasn't using.

[White Knight]

Mike Greenwell claimed he should be given the MVP award from 1988 when Jose Canseco later confessed to using steroids (that presumably helped him put up the performance that won him the award.)

In 1988, steroids were not only completely legal in baseball, but not even federally illegal by the US government. They became illegal in 1991 I believe, by the DEA.

[Brad Harris]

In 1988, steroids were not only completely legal in baseball, but not even federally illegal by the US government. They became illegal in 1991 I believe, by the DEA.

And "illegal" in baseball beginning in 2004. Mike Greenwell's sour grapes notwithstanding, Canseco earned that MVP, with or without pharmaceutical assistance.

[White Knight]

And "illegal" in baseball beginning in 2004. Mike Greenwell's sour grapes notwithstanding, Canseco earned that MVP, with or without pharmaceutical assistance.

Actually, they became banned in baseball in 1991, but they didn't test until 2004. Either way, Canseco deserves his MVP.