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Thread: Overshadowed Great Hitting Seasons?

  1. #1
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    Overshadowed Great Hitting Seasons?

    What are some great seasons that you think might have been overshadowed?

    I'm not quite sure how to explain this, but for example:
    The 1905 GIants lineup had Mike Donlin, who hit .356 with a 167 OPS+ but was overshadowed by his famous teammate Mathewson (31-9, 230 ERA+).

    The 1961 Tigers had Norm Cash had a .366 average with a 201 OPS+ the same year as the M&M boys

    The 1927 Tigers had Harry Heilmann with .398 average, a 180 OPS+, finishing in 2nd place in OBP, 3rd in hits, and 3rd in RBIs, but is overshadowed by Gehrig and Ruth.
    Last edited by 1905 Giants; 03-11-2010 at 05:38 PM.
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  2. #2
    Quote Originally Posted by 1905 Giants View Post

    The 1961 Tigers had Norm Cash had a .366 average with a 201 OPS+ the same year as the M&M boys
    I actually think it was Mantle who is overshadowed here. At least historically, from a 2010 perspective. Now days, we remeber Maris and Cash more so in 1961.

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    Quote Originally Posted by dgarza View Post
    I actually think it was Mantle who is overshadowed here. At least historically, from a 2010 perspective. Now days, we remeber Maris and Cash more so in 1961.
    Interesting perspective.
    “There can be no higher law in journalism than to tell the truth and to shame the devil.” – Walter Lippmann

    "History has proven a thousand times that no man has ever gained from a bargain with The Dark, yet cowards and fools continue to try, and The Dark never turns them away."
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  4. #4
    Quote Originally Posted by 1905 Giants View Post
    Interesting perspective.
    Well, Mantle was already known to be great, but Cash was such a fluke, it sticks in our memories.

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    In 1941, the same season when Joe DiMaggio had his hitting streak and Ted Williams hit .406, the hit leader in the American League was Cecil Travis. The 218 hits that Travis had that year were the most of any player in the AL during the 1940's.

  6. #6
    Tony Gwynn's 1994 season overshadowed by the strike.

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    All of the other good hitters on the 116 win Seattle Mariners in 2001, when Ichiro got all the credit and took the MVP. He was maybe the 4th best hitter on the team that season.

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    Quote Originally Posted by dgarza View Post
    I actually think it was Mantle who is overshadowed here. At least historically, from a 2010 perspective. Now days, we remeber Maris and Cash more so in 1961.
    The Yankee catchers were overshadowed here.
    Berra + Blanchard + Howard totalled 64 HRs in 1961.

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    Quote Originally Posted by ItsOnlyGil View Post
    The Yankee catchers were overshadowed here.
    Berra + Blanchard + Howard totalled 64 HRs in 1961.
    Though only 2 of Berra's HR's came when he was catching, and 10 of Blanchard's 21 where hit when he wasn't catching.

  10. #10
    Quote Originally Posted by ItsOnlyGil View Post
    The Yankee catchers were overshadowed here.
    Berra + Blanchard + Howard totalled 64 HRs in 1961.
    Yogi only started 15 games behind the plate, started about half the games in LF. Howard was starting catcher in 106, Blanchard the rest. Howard also played a few games at 1B and Blanchard also played a few games in LF and RF. Still, if you looked at the actual numbers turned in by which ever one of the 3 was actually penciled in at catcher for the lineup, I'd bet they were pretty impressive over the entire season, although I'd doubt if it was close to 64 HR's at the position.
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    Quote Originally Posted by 64Cards View Post
    Yogi only started 15 games behind the plate, started about half the games in LF. Howard was starting catcher in 106, Blanchard the rest. Howard also played a few games at 1B and Blanchard also played a few games in LF and RF. Still, if you looked at the actual numbers turned in by which ever one of the 3 was actually penciled in at catcher for the lineup, I'd bet they were pretty impressive over the entire season, although I'd doubt if it was close to 64 HR's at the position.
    Of course your observations are true, but who even thought about the Yankee catchers - who were totally overshadowed by the M&M boys and others.

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    Cecil Cooper, 1980, led the AL in hits (219), RBI (122) & total bases (335) and batted .352. Overshadowed by George Brett flirting with .400.

  13. #13
    My vote has to go to Rico Carty, who put up this line for the hapless 1970 Atlanta Braves:

    .366/.454/.584 .......... 25 HR

    Totally overlooked and forgotten.

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    Quote Originally Posted by ItsOnlyGil View Post
    Of course your observations are true, but who even thought about the Yankee catchers - who were totally overshadowed by the M&M boys and others.
    You know your being overshadowed when you're a full time catcher who posts a 153 OPS+ for the pennant winning team, yet you still finish only 10th in the MVP voting.

    Yankee catchers hit 30 HR's that year, btw. .323/.377/.521 with 30 HR and 102 RBI. Not bad even for a year like 1961.

    Blachard was quite the secret weapon that year. Only 275 PA's, but he made them count. 168 OPS+. Posted a 1.137 OPS in 32 PH chances. Hit .373 with runners in scoring position. Had a 1.200 OPS in "High Leverage" situations.

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    Some of the Greatest Hitting Seasons Ever: Listed according to OPS+.
    Seasons pre-1920 are high-lighted in red, for convenience.
    Code:
    ----------------Rel.SLG-Rel.OBP--Rel.BA.-OPS+-INK--PCA-----WS--TPR
    Bonds, 2002------1.94----1.74-----1.42---275---09--20.6----49--11.2
    Bonds, 2001------2.03 ---1.54-----1.34---262---09--20.82---54--12.2
    Bonds, 2004------1.91----1.82-----1.37---260---09--21.8----53--12.5
    Ruth, 1920-------2.18----1.52-----1.32---256---16--28.83---51--10.0
    Ruth,1921--------2.07----1.43-----1.29---239---16--24.79---53---9.8
    Ruth, 1923-------1.96----1.55-----1.39---239---16--22.2----55--11.2
    Williams, 1941---1.88----1.61-----1.52---235---16--22.1----42---8.8
    Gehrig,1927------1.91----1.34-----1.30---221---07--17.17---44---9.1
    Ruth, 1924-------1.86----1.43-----1.30---220---16--20.8----45---8.5
    Mantle,1956------1.78----1.36-----1.35---210---18--22.96---49---8.8
    Cobb, 1917-------1.78----1.39-----1.54---209---16--19.7----46---8.4
    Hornsby,1922-----1.78----1.31-----1.37---207---23--20.37---42---9.2
    Foxx,1932--------1.85----1.35-----1.31---205---14--18.54---40---7.2
    Wagner,1908------1.77----1.38-----1.48---205---19--18.42---59--10.2
    Brett, 1980------1.66----1.38-----1.44---202---07--12.43---36---7.4
    Cash, 1961-------1.67----1.47-----1.41---201---07--17.30---42---8.3
    Musial,1948------1.83----1.35-----1.44---200---20--20.30---46---7.3
    Lajoie, 1901-----1.73----1.39-----1.53---200---23--18.94---42---7.4
    F.Robinson, 1966-1.72----1.34-----1.31---199---18--16.48---41---6.8
    Cobb,1911--------1.73----1.38-----1.53---196---22--20.74---47---6.4
    Yaz,1967---------1.77----1.38-----1.38---195---21--16.81---42---6.5
    J.Jackson, 1911--1.64----1.38-----1.49---193---00--17.13---39---6.8
    T.Williams,1949--1.71----1.38-----1.30---192---19--17.24---40---6.6
    Vaughan, 1935----1.55----1.48-----1.38---190---09--15.72---39---7.6
    Delahanty, 1899--1.59----1.35-----1.45---189---16--16.36---41---5.4 
    Speaker, 1912----1.62----1.39-----1.44---188---06--18.13---51---7.1
    Morgan, 1976-----1.59----1.40-----1.25---187---03----?-----37---7.5
    Kiner, 1951------1.60----1.36-----1.18---184---12--15.64---35---5.1
    Aaron, 1959------1.59----1.24-----1.36---181---10--15.21---38---7.2
    Sisler,1920------1.63----1.29-----1.43---181---08--15.40---33---7.6
    Burkett, 1901----1.46----1.37-----1.40---181---11--15.21---38---5.8
    Al Rosen, 1953---1.60----1.25-----1.28---180---14--15.33---42---6.5
    Medwick, 1937----1.67----1.24-----1.37---180---24--17.47---40---5.2
    Carew, 1977------1.40----1.35-----1.45---178---10--15.74---37---6.3
    Hack Wilson,1930-1.61----1.27-----1.17---178---13--15.81---35---4.9
    H.Duffy, 1894----1.59----1.42-----1.58---177---20--16.44---33---4.0
    Simmons,1930-----1.68----1.20-----1.32---176---07--12.94---36---4.5
    Wagner, 1900-----1.56----1.28-----1.36---175---10--16.05---34---4.3
    Mays, 1954-------1.63----1.22-----1.30---175---08--12.11---40---6.8
    Mize, 1937-------1.55----1.28-----1.33---172---00--14.95---34---3.3
    Greenberg, 1937--1.60----1.29-----1.19---172---04--12.38---33---5.5
    Babe Herman,1930-1.51----1.26-----1.29---170---00--16.26---32---3.5
    Sisler, 1922-----1.49----1.34-----1.47---170---13--14.08---29---5.2
    Clemente, 1967---1.52----1.28-----1.43---170---07--12.59---35---5.6
    Snider, 1954-----1.58----1.26-----1.28---170---03--12.33---39---4.2
    Zimmerman, 1912--1.54----1.22-----1.36---169---16--13.16---34---5.0
    Morgan, 1975-----1.37----1.43-----1.27---169---02----?-----44---9.8
    DiMaggio,1937----1.62----1.16-----1.23---168---07--12.78---39---5.9
    Heilmann, 1921---1.48----1.24-----1.34---167---07--12.13---28---3.4
    Reiser, 1941-----1.54----1.24-----1.32---165---13--10.22---34---4.7
    Ott, 1929--------1.49----1.25-----1.11---165---02--13.15---31---5.2
    Keeler, 1897-----1.39----1.31-----1.45---164---07--11.28---32---4.0
    K.Williams, 1922-1.57----1.18-----1.16---164---08---8.95---30---4.3
    Z.Wheat, 1924----1.40----1.27-----1.32---163---00--10.67---35---4.5
    Crawford, 1911---1.46----1.29-----1.37---163---00--11.49---32---2.2
    Klein,1930-------1.53----1.21-----1.27---159---06--14.17---28---5.6
    O'Doul, 1929-----1.46----1.30-----1.35---159---07--11.83---31---5.1
    J.Robinson, 1949-1.35----1.29-----1.30---159---06--12.22---36---6.5
    Averill, 1936----1.48----1.20-----1.30---159---04--12.86---27---4.0
    Rose, 1969-------1.38----1.34-----1.39---158---07--11.94---37---3.7
    Terry, 1930------1.38----1.25-----1.32---158---07--14.46---32---5.5
    J.Rice, 1978-----1.55----1.13-----1.20---158---17--10.08---36---4.0
    Colavito, 1961---1.46----1.22-----1.13---157---01--10.10---33---4.0
    P.Waner, 1927----1.42----1.28-----1.34---155---13--10.45---36---3.4
    Manush, 1928-----1.44----1.20-----1.34---154---00--11.08---35---2.9
    Oliva, 1964------1.45----1.14-----1.30---150---12---9.43---27---3.2
    T.Davis, 1962----1.36----1.15-----1.32---148---11--11.70---36---3.6
    Trosky, 1936-----1.52----1.05-----1.18---148---04---9.66---21---1.9
    B.Williams, 1970-1.49----1.18-----1.24---147---07--11.88---29---3.5
    Z.Wheat, 1925----1.30----1.15-----1.22---142---00--10.61---27---2.5
    Gehringer, 1936--1.31----1.18-----1.22---142---02--10.37---34---5.9
    KiKi Cuyler,1930-1.22----1.18-----1.17---133---03---9.82---29---3.0
    Lindstrom, 1930--1.28----1.18-----1.25---132---00--10.78---32---4.7
    J.Tobin, 1921----1.19----1.10-----1.20---119---02---8.24---25---0.5

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    From my above chart, I would like to isolate the 1930 season.

    Code:
    ----------------Rel.SLG-Rel.OBP--Rel.BA.-OPS+-INK--PCA-----WS--TPR
    Hack Wilson,1930-1.61----1.27-----1.17---178---13--15.81---35---4.9
    Babe Herman,1930-1.51----1.26-----1.29---170---00--16.26---32---3.5
    Klein,1930-------1.53----1.21-----1.27---159---06--14.17---28---5.6
    Terry, 1930------1.38----1.25-----1.32---158---07--14.46---32---5.5
    KiKi Cuyler,1930-1.22----1.18-----1.17---133---03---9.82---29---3.0
    Lindstrom, 1930--1.28----1.18-----1.25---132---00--10.78---32---4.7
    From this one season alone, I think the seasons for Herman, Cuyler and Lindstrom got lost in the haze of glory that all went to Wilson, Klein and Terry. I give all relative numbers, so we can compare to other seasons without undue complications.

  17. #17
    Someone else who got overshadowed in 1961 : Jim Gentile

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    Dave Foutz going 25-12 with his teammate Bob Caruthers going 28-9 both hit .357 in about 400 ABs a piece, while each slugged over .500
    were overshadowed by teammate Tip O'Neil leading the league in Runs, Hits, Doubles, Triples, Home Runs, RBIs, BA, OBP, SLG, OPS, OPS+, TB and other offensive catagories, in 1887.

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    Quote Originally Posted by dgarza View Post
    Someone else who got overshadowed in 1961 : Jim Gentile
    He did finish 3rd in the MVP voting that year, and got 5 1st place votes so I'd probably not call that overshadowed. That great season is largely forgotten, sure, but at the time he was recognized as having a GREAT season.

  20. #20
    Quote Originally Posted by mwiggins View Post
    He did finish 3rd in the MVP voting that year, and got 5 1st place votes so I'd probably not call that overshadowed. That great season is largely forgotten, sure, but at the time he was recognized as having a GREAT season.
    I guess I was suggesting forgotten "historically" rather than "in his day".

  21. #21
    Quote Originally Posted by Bill Burgess View Post
    From my above chart, I would like to isolate the 1930 season.
    Code:
    ----------------Rel.SLG-Rel.OBP--Rel.BA.-OPS+-INK--PCA-----WS--TPR
    ...
    KiKi Cuyler,1930-1.22----1.18-----1.17---133---03---9.82---29---3.0
    Lindstrom, 1930--1.28----1.18-----1.25---132---00--10.78---32---4.7
    From this one season alone, I think the seasons for Herman, Cuyler and Lindstrom got lost in the haze of glory that all went to Wilson, Klein and Terry. I give all relative numbers, so we can compare to other seasons without undue complications.
    My,
    How did Cuyler, Lindstrom and Tobin qualify for the big list?

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    Lou Gehrig, 1927. Of course, Lou's numbers were eye-popping that year -- but the shadow doesn't get much longer than The Babe hitting 60 dingers.

    And Wahoo Sam Crawford had several seasons that were overshadowed by his Georgian teammate.

    But both Larrupin' Lou and Wahoo Sam have become famous for being overshadowed. Does that still qualify them as being overshadowed?
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  23. #23
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    Quote Originally Posted by Paul Wendt View Post
    My,
    How did Cuyler, Lindstrom and Tobin qualify for the big list?
    By their great stats. Looks like they're still being ove-shadowed.

  24. #24
    Not sure if this really counts, but the two times Fred McGriff league the league in HRs (1989 & 1992), he only was 6th in MVP voting.

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