Single Ballot BBF Hall of Fame

[DJC]

Overlooked joe torre and alex pompez on the contributors, please add

Got it. So after a brief stint outside the Hall of Honor, both men are back in.

[baltimorechop]

Not doing Negro League or Pioneers. I'm also not touching active players, but only retired (or those who appear like they are about to be retired). + means they are retired (or i think they are about to be) and I will put them in my HOF as soon as eligible. I don't abide by 10 year minimum play time, nor the ineligible list. Additionally, I break down by position which means I had to make some judgment calls on which position I consider some players. This may've caused me to miss some dual position players, like I nearly forgot Musial.


Pitchers (74 + 6)

Cy Young
Walter Johnson
Schilling
Seaver
Grove
Nichols
Alexander
Clemens
Niekro
Mathewson
Blyleven
Perry
Spahn
Plank
Carlton
Clarkson
Keefe
Galvin
Bob Gibson
Jenkins
Nolan Ryan
Robin Roberts
Vic Willis
Sutton
Palmer
Kevin Brown
Reuschel
Rusie
Hubbell
Radbourn
Jim McCormick
Faber
Tiant
Lyons
Coveleski
Vance
Feller
Walsh
Welch
Eckersley
Cone
Marichal
Spalding
Waddell
Drysdale
Koufax
Ford
Three Finger Brown
Rixey
Mullane
Newhouser
Bunning
McGinnity
Ruffing
Wes Ferrell
Wynn
Joss
Wilhelm
Gossage
Caruthers
Bucky Walters
Hershiser
Shocker
Babe Adams
B Pierce
W Cooper
Noodles Hahn
Dizzy Dean
Dave Stieb
C Griffith
Tommy John
Saberhagen
Appier
Cicotte

+Maddux
+Glavine
+Mussina
+Pedro Martinez
+Smoltz
+R Johnson

Catcher (18 + 1)
Bench
Carter
Berra
Dickey
Torre
Piazza
Fisk
Hartnett
Cochrane
Simmons
Tenace
Lombardi
Schang
Munson
Ewing
Bresnahan
Campanella
C Bennett

+Ivan Rodriguez

1B (19 + 1)
Gehrig
Foxx
Connor
Anson
Brouthers
Bagwell
Mize
Murray
McCovey
Beckley
Palmeiro
Rose
Killebrew
McGriff
Sisler
Terry
Greenberg
K Hernandez
D Allen

+Thome

2B (19 + 1)
Hornsby
Eddie Collins
Lajoie
Morgan
Whitaker
Frisch
Grich
Gehringer
Sandberg
Alomar
Biggio
Jackie Robinson
Willie Randolph
Joe Gordon
Billy Herman
Bid McPhee
Carew
Ross Barnes
Hardy Richardson

+Jeff Kent

3B (18 + 2)
Schmidt
Mathews
Boggs
Brett
Brooks Robinson
Nettles
Buddy Bell
Santo
Home Run Baker
Boyer
Bando
Deacon White
Darrell Evans
McGraw
Heinie Groh
Jimmy Collins
Bob Elliott
Stan Hack

+Rolen
+ Jones

SS (18)
Wagner
Ripken
George Davis
Yount
Dahlen
Ozzie Smith
Vaughan
Larkin
Trammell
Appling
Wallace
Reese
Banks
Cronin
Glasscock
Boudreau
Monte Ward
Jennings

LF (22 + 1)
Musial
T Williams
B Williams
Henderson
Delahanty
Yaz
Raines
Simmons
Clarke
Goslin
Burkett
Wheat
Sherry Magee
Stargell
Indian Bob Johnson
Medwick
Minoso
Joe Kelley
Kiner
Bonds
O'Rourke
Stovey

+Manny Ramirez

CF (18 + 2)
Mays
Cobb
Speaker
Mantle
Snider
Hamilton
DiMaggio
Ashburn
Carey
Doby
Averill
Dawson
Reggie Smith
Paul Hines
George Gore
Lofton
Puckett
Pete Browning
Willie Davis

+Griffey
+Edmonds

RF (21 + 2)
Aaron
Ott
Ruth
Winfield
Slaughter
Keeler
Flick
Shoeless Jackson
King Kelly
Frank Robinson
Sam Thompson
Dwight Evans
Gwynn
Heilmann
Reggie Jackson
Larry Walker
Paul Waner
Wahoo Sam Crawford
Kaline
Clemente
Bobby Bonds

+Sheffield
+Vlad Guerrero

DH (2 + 1)
Molitor
Edgar Martinez

+Frank Thomas

[Richard Stark]

I am new to the project and will be adding a group every couple of days until my list is complete.I will make a list for Negro League, Mexican League and other leagues as I get time.

Catchers -

Johnny Bench
Charlie Bennett
Yogi Berra
Roger Bresnahan
Roy Campanella
Gary Carter
Mickey Cochrane
Bill Dickey
Buck Ewing
Carlton Fisk
Bill Freehan
Gabby Hartnett
Elston Howard
Ernie Lombardi
Thurman Munson
Lance Parrish
Mike Piazza
Wally Schang
Ted Simmons
Joe Torre
Deacon White

1st Base -

Cap Anson
Dick Allen
Jeff Bagwell
Jake Beckley
Dan Brouthers
Orlando Cepeda
Frank Chance
Will Clark
Roger Connor
Jimmie Foxx
Lou Gehrig
Hank Greenberg
Keith Hernandez
Gil Hodges
Harmon Killebrew
Willie McCovey
Fred McGriff
Cal McVey
Mark McGwire
Johnny Mize
Eddie Murray
Rafael Palmeiro
Tony Perez
George Sisler
Joe Start
Bill Terry
Hal Trosky

2nd Base -

Roberto Alomar
Ross Barnes
Craig Biggio
Rod Carew
Cupid Childs
Eddie Collins
Bobby Doerr
Larry Doyle
Frankie Frisch
Charlie Gehringer
Bobby Grich
Joe Gordon
Billy Herman
Rogers Hornsby
Jeff Kent
Nap Lajoie
Tony Lazzeri
Bid McPhee
Joe Morgan
Willie Randolph
Hardy Richardson
Jackie Robinson
Ryne Sandberg
Lou Whitaker
Frank White

Shortstops -

Luke Appling
Ernie Banks
Lou Boudreau
Joe Cronin
Bill Dahlen
George Davis
Jack Glasscock
Hughie Jennings
Barry Larkin
Dickey Pearce
Pee Wee Reese
Cal Ripken Jr.
Ozzie Smith
Vern Stephens
Alan Trammell
Arky Vaughan
Honus Wagner
John Montgomery Ward
George Wright
Robin Yount

3rd Base -

Frank Baker
Sal Bando
Wade Boggs
Ken Boyer
George Brett
Jimmy Collins
Bob Elliott
Darrell Evans
Heinie Groh
Stan Hack
Tommy Leach
Edgar Martinez
Eddie Mathews
John McGraw
Paul Molitor
Graig Nettles
Brooks Robinson
Al Rosen
Ron Santo
Mike Schmidt
Ezra Sutton
Pie Traynor


Left Fielders -

Albert Belle
Barry Bonds
Lou Brock
Jesse Burkett
Fred Clarke
Gavvy Cravath
Ed Delahanty
Goose Goslin
Rickey Henderson
Monte Irvin
Shoeless Joe Jackson
Bob Johnson
Ralph Kiner
Sherry Magee
Joe Medwick
Minnie Minoso
Stan Musial
Jim O'Rourke
Tim Raines
Jimmy Sheckard
Al Simmons
Willie Stargell
Harry Stovey
Zach Wheat
Billy Williams
Ted Williams
Carl Yastrzemski


Center Fielders -

Richie Ashburn
Earl Averill
Wally Berger
Max Carey
Ty Cobb
Joe DiMaggio
Larry Doby
Hugh Duffy
George Gore
Billy Hamilton
Paul Hines
Kenny Lofton
Fred Lynn
Mickey Mantle
Willie Mays
Dale Murphy
Tony Oliva
Lip Pike
Vada Pinson
Kirby Puckett
Edd Roush
Duke Snider
Tris Speaker
George Van Haltren
Hack Wilson
Jimmy Wynn


Right Fielders -

Hank Aaron
Bobby Bonds
Harold Baines
Roberto Clemente
Sam Crawford
Andre Dawson
Dwight Evans
Tony Gwynn
Harry Heilmann
Reggie Jackson
Al Kaline
Willie Keeler
King Kelly
Mel Ott
Frank Robinson
Pete Rose
Babe Ruth
Enos Slaughter
Reggie Smith
Sammy Sosa
Sam Thompson
Paul Waner
Larry Walker
Dave Winfield

Starting Pitchers -

Grover Cleveland Alexander
Chief Bender
Vida Blue
Bert Blyleven
Tommy Bridges
Mordecai Brown
Jim Bunning
Steve Carlton
Bob Caruthers
Eddie Cicotte
John Clarkson
Roger Clemens
David Cone
Wilbur Cooper
Stan Coveleski
Jim Creighton
Dizzy Dean
Don Drysdale
Red Faber
Bob Feller
Wes Ferrell
Whitey Ford
Pud Galvin
Bob Gibson
Lefty Gomez
Dwight Gooden
Clark Griffith
Burleigh Grimes
Lefty Grove
Carl Hubbell
Catfish Hunter
Fergie Jenkins
Tommy John
Walter Johnson
Addie Joss
Jim Kaat
Tim Keefe
Silver King
Sandy Koufax
Bob Lemon
Ted Lyons
Juan Marichal
Bobby Mathews
Christy Mathewson
Carl Mays
Joe McGinnity
Jack Morris
Tony Mullane
Don Newcombe
Hal Newhouser
Kid Nichols
Phil Niekro
Jim Palmer
Gaylord Perry
Billy Pierce
Eddie Plank
Charley Radbourn
Eppa Rixey
Robin Roberts
Red Ruffing
Amos Rusie
Babe Ruth
Nolan Ryan
Bret Saberhagen
Curt Schilling
Tom Seaver
Urban Shocker
Warren Spahn
Dave Stieb
Don Sutton
Luis Tiant
Dazzy Vance
Rube Waddell
Ed Walsh
Mickey Welch
Vic Willis
Joe Wood
Wilbur Wood
Early Wynn
Cy Young


Relievers -

Dennis Eckersley
Rollie Fingers
John Franco
Goose Gossage
Tom Henke
Doug Jones
Mike Marshall
Firpo Mayberry
Tug McGraw
Jesse Orosco
Jeff Reardon
Lee Smith
Bruce Sutter
Dan Quisenberry
John Wetteland
Hoyt Wilhelm


Negro, Mexican, Cuban, and Japanese League Players -

Cool Papa Bell
Akira Bessho
Ray Brown
Willard Brown
Perucho Cepeda
Oscar Charleston
Andy Cooper
Ray Dandridge
Leon Day
Martin DiHigo
Bill Foster
Rube Foster
Josh Gibson
Frank Grant
Pete Hill
Judy Johnson
Masaichi Kaneda
Buck Leonard
John Henry Lloyd
Dick Lundy
Biz Mackey
Jose Mendez
Dobie Moore
Katsuya Nomura
Sadaharu Oh
Alejandro Oms
Satchel Paige
Spotswood Poles
Double Duty Radcliffe
Dick Redding
Louis Santop
Hilton Smith
Victor Starffin
Turkey Stearnes
Mule Suttles
Quincy Trouppe
Bullet Rogan
Ben Taylor
Cristobal Torriente
Joe Williams
Jud Wilson


Managers -

Walter Alston
Sparky Anderson
Leo Durocher
Ned Hanlon
Bucky Harris
Whitey Herzog
Miller Huggins
Tommy Lasorda
Al Lopez
Connie Mack
Billy Martin
Joe McCarthy
John McGraw
Bill McKechnie
Danny Murtaugh
Frank Selee
Billy Southworth
Casey Stengel
Earl Weaver
Dick Williams
Harry Wright


Executives/Pioneers -

Doc Adams
Ed Barrow
Alexander Cartwright
Henry Chadwick
Happy Chandler
Jack Dunn
John B. Foster
Rube Foster
Pat Gillick
John Heydler
William Hulbert
Ban Johnson
Bill Klem
Kenesaw M. Landis
Larry MacPhail
Effa Manley
Marvin Miller
Walter O'Malley
Alex Pompez
Cum Posey
Branch Rickey
Jacob Ruppert
John Schuerholz
Albert Goodwill Spalding
J.G. Taylor Spink
George Steinbrenner
Bill Veeck
George Weiss
Sol White
J.L. Wilkinson

Future Hall of Fame Contenders -

Catchers -
Joe Mauer (active)
Jorge Posada (active)
Ivan Rodriguez (active)

First Basemen -
Todd Helton (active)
Albert Pujols (active)
Frank Thomas (2008)
Jim Thome (active)
Joey Votto (active)

Second Basemen -
Robinson Cano (active)
Jeff Kent (2008)

Third Basemen -
Chipper Jones (active)
Scott Rolen (active)
David Wright (active)

Shortstops -
Derek Jeter (active)
Alex Rodriguez (active)

Left Fielders -
Manny Ramirez (2011)

Center Fielders -
Jim Edmonds (2010)
Ken Griffey Jr. (2010)
Andruw Jones (active)

Right Fielders -
Vladimir Guerrero (active)
Gary Sheffield (2009)
Ichiro Suzuki (active)


Starting Pitchers -
Tom Glavine (2008)
Roy Halladay (active)
Randy Johnson (2009)
Greg Maddux (2008)
Pedro Martinez (2009)
Mike Mussina (2008)
John Smoltz (2009)

Relief Pitchers -
Trevor Hoffman (2010)
Mariano Rivera (active)
Billy Wagner (2010)

Managers -
Bobby Cox (2010)
Terry Francona (active)
Tony LaRussa (active)
Lou Piniella (2010)
Joe Torre (2010)

Executives/Pioneers -
Billy Beane (active)
Bill James (active)

[DJC]

Wow, two new ballots! Thanks, guys. I'll update the totals soon. Richard, I'll probably hold off on adding yours until you get everybody in. No rush. It's just easier for me to tabulate that way.

[baltimorechop]

It looks like I kicked Puckett out, but got Keith Hernandez in!

I'm shocked that Bobby Grich doesn't collectivey have 75%, but i'll get him (and Rixey & Faber) really close to in. I'm biased toward reds, but i am surprised that Red Faber isn't thought a little higher of.

If anyone notices a multi-position player I may've overlooked, please tell me. I totally missed Dick Allen and Stan Musial because I did my hall of fame by position (as I was doing this I thought of others like Rose, Banks, Carew, Killebrew, King Kelly as I went, but probably forgot someone else important).

[DJC]

Updated again. Keith Hernandez is back in the Hall now.

Any more...?

[Matthew C.]

It looks like I kicked Puckett out, but got Keith Hernandez in!

I'm shocked that Bobby Grich doesn't collectivey have 75%, but i'll get him (and Rixey & Faber) really close to in. I'm biased toward reds, but i am surprised that Red Faber isn't thought a little higher of.

.

Faber had two great years, one really good year and a whole lot of blah. No thanks. Rixey was Faber, but downgrading the two great years with two good years. Double no thanks.

[baltimorechop]

Faber had two great years, one really good year and a whole lot of blah. No thanks. Rixey was Faber, but downgrading the two great years with two good years. Double no thanks.

I will grant you only two superb year and a lot of compiling. (I come off as combatative a lot, but I'm trying to start a rousing argument here). I noticed that you put in Tommy Bridges (and you have posts where you reference WAR without being overly skeptical). I see Tommy Bridges with 126 ERA+ in over 2800 IP. Of course, Faber pitched far longer, but if you only look at until 1925 he has about 15 fewer IP than Bridges with a 125 ERA+. His WAR at this point in his career is 44.7 compared to bridges 48.1. The difference is, Faber's peak is far higher than Bridges (a 10 and 8 WAR season, where Bridges has just a 6 and a 5).

Now, you can definitely counter that Bridges was more often in the top 5 pitchers in his league, but never was he first or second. Faber was first one year, and second another. Then it comes down to how you value peak. I guess I'm making the argument that Faber did very nearly what Bridges did, but then added another 17 war and 1200+ IP at a 109 ERA+. I did let in a few pitchers like Bridges, but I usually was looking for them to be a little more dominant in exchange for their shorter careers.

[Matthew C.]

I will grant you only two superb year and a lot of compiling. (I come off as combatative a lot, but I'm trying to start a rousing argument here). I noticed that you put in Tommy Bridges (and you have posts where you reference WAR without being overly skeptical). I see Tommy Bridges with 126 ERA+ in over 2800 IP. Of course, Faber pitched far longer, but if you only look at until 1925 he has about 15 fewer IP than Bridges with a 125 ERA+. His WAR at this point in his career is 44.7 compared to bridges 48.1. The difference is, Faber's peak is far higher than Bridges (a 10 and 8 WAR season, where Bridges has just a 6 and a 5).

Now, you can definitely counter that Bridges was more often in the top 5 pitchers in his league, but never was he first or second. Faber was first one year, and second another. Then it comes down to how you value peak. I guess I'm making the argument that Faber did very nearly what Bridges did, but then added another 17 war and 1200+ IP at a 109 ERA+. I did let in a few pitchers like Bridges, but I usually was looking for them to be a little more dominant in exchange for their shorter careers.

I no longer support Bridges. May have been an over-site the first time, as I never remember supporting him. I had to check my original list to see that he was really on there. They are both in the 80's or so all-time for me. Faber did have the bigger peak, but Bridges had a lot more quality secondary seasons and missed two seasons due to military service. Slight edge in league quality too. I think those things balance out the two big Faber years. Either way, you are right, they are pretty close. Still not sure how Bridges snuck on my list.

[DJC]

I no longer support Bridges. May have been an over-site the first time, as I never remember supporting him. I had to check my original list to see that he was really on there. They are both in the 80's or so all-time for me. Faber did have the bigger peak, but Bridges had a lot more quality secondary seasons and missed two seasons due to military service. Slight edge in league quality too. I think those things balance out the two big Faber years. Either way, you are right, they are pretty close. Still not sure how Bridges snuck on my list.

So I should drop Bridges from your ballot?

[Matthew C.]

So I should drop Bridges from your ballot?

Yes - I was hoping to make all of my corrections at one time. Could I just tell you who I want to add and who I want to drop, or do I need to alphabetize everybody again?

[DJC]

Yes - I was hoping to make all of my corrections at one time. Could I just tell you who I want to add and who I want to drop, or do I need to alphabetize everybody again?

Here's everyone I currently have you down as voting for:

Aaron, Hank
Alexander, Pete
Allen, Dick
Alomar, Roberto
Anson, Cap
Appling, Luke
Ashburn, Richie
Averill, Earl
Baker, Home Run
Bando, Sal
Banks, Ernie
Beckley, Jake
Bell, Cool Papa
Bench, Johnny
Berra, Yogi
Blyleven, Bert
Boggs, Wade
Boudreau, Lou
Boyer, Ken
Brett, George
Bridges, Tommy
Brouthers, Dan
Brown, Mordecai
Brown, Raymond
Brown, Willard
Bunning, Jim
Burkett, Jesse
Campanella, Roy
Carew, Rod
Carey, Max
Carlton, Steve
Carter, Gary
Caruthers, Bob
Charleston, Oscar
Clark, Will
Clarke, Fred
Clarkson, John
Clemente, Roberto
Cobb, Ty
Cochrane, Mickey
Collins, Eddie
Collins, Jimmy
Connor, Roger
Coveleski, Stan
Crawford, Sam
Cronin, Joe
Dahlen, Bill
Dandridge, Ray
Davis, George
Dawson, Andre
Day, Leon
Delahanty, Ed
Dickey, Bill
Dihigo, Martin
DiMaggio, Joe
Doby, Larry
Doerr, Bobby
Drysdale, Don
Eckersley, Dennis
Evans, Darrell
Evans, Dwight
Ewing, Buck
Faber, Red
Feller, Bob
Ferrell, Wes
Fisk, Carlton
Flick, Elmer
Ford, Whitey
Foster, Bill
Foxx, Jimmie
Frisch, Frankie
Galvin, Pud
Gehrig, Lou
Gehringer, Charlie
Gibson, Bob
Gibson, Josh
Glasscock, Jack
Gordon, Joe
Goslin, Goose
Gossage, Rich
Grant, Frank
Greenberg, Hank
Grich, Bobby
Griffith, Clark
Grove, Lefty
Gwynn, Tony
Hack, Stan
Hamilton, Billy
Hartnett, Gabby
Heilmann, Harry
Henderson, Rickey
Herman, Billy
Hernandez, Keith
Hill, Pete
Hornsby, Rogers
Hubbell, Carl
Irvin, Monte
Jackson, Reggie
Jenkins, Fergie
Johnson, Judy
Johnson, Walter
Kaline, Al
Keefe, Tim
Keeler, Willie
Kelley, Joe
Kelly, King
Killebrew, Harmon
Kiner, Ralph
Koufax, Sandy
Lajoie, Nap
Larkin, Barry
Lazzeri, Tony
Lemon, Bob
Leonard, Buck
Lloyd, Pop
Lyons, Ted
Mackey, Biz
Magee, Sherry
Mantle, Mickey
Marichal, Juan
Martinez, Edgar
Mathews, Eddie
Mathewson, Christy
Mays, Willie
McCovey, Willie
McGinnity, Joe
McGraw, John
McPhee, Bid
Medwick, Joe
Mendez, Jose
Minoso, Minnie
Mize, Johnny
Molitor, Paul
Morgan, Joe
Mullane, Tony
Murray, Eddie
Musial, Stan
Nettles, Graig
Newhouser, Hal
Nichols, Kid
Niekro, Phil
O'Rourke, Jim
Ott, Mel
Paige, Satchel
Palmer, Jim
Perry, Gaylord
Pierce, Billy
Plank, Eddie
Puckett, Kirby
Radbourn, Old Hoss
Raines, Tim
Randolph, Willie
Reese, Pee Wee
Reuschel, Rick
Ripken, Cal
Rixey, Eppa
Roberts, Robin
Robinson, Brooks
Robinson, Frank
Robinson, Jackie
Rogan, Bullet
Ruffing, Red
Rusie, Amos
Ruth, Babe
Ryan, Nolan
Saberhagen, Bret
Sandberg, Ryne
Santo, Ron
Santop, Louis
Schmidt, Mike
Seaver, Tom
Sewell, Joe
Shocker, Urban
Simmons, Al
Simmons, Ted
Sisler, George
Slaughter, Enos
Smith, Hilton
Smith, Ozzie
Snider, Duke
Spahn, Warren
Speaker, Tris
Stargell, Willie
Stearnes, Turkey
Stieb, Dave
Suttles, Mule
Sutton, Don
Taylor, Ben
Terry, Bill
Tiant, Luis
Torre, Joe
Torriente, Cristobal
Trammell, Alan
Vance, Dazzy
Vaughan, Arky
Waddell, Rube
Wagner, Honus
Wallace, Bobby
Walsh, Ed
Waner, Paul
Ward, Monte
Wells, Willie
Wheat, Zack
Whitaker, Lou
Wilhelm, Hoyt
Williams, Billy
Williams, Joe
Williams, Ted
Willis, Vic
Wilson, Jud
Winfield, Dave
Wynn, Early
Yastrzemski, Carl
Young, Cy
Yount, Robin

Would you be able to add 2005-07 retirees to your list? And if you're interested, you could make a list of Future HOFers (played in 2008 or later) and/or a list of Contributors.

[baltimorechop]

The below only matters if you support Tommy John which the above post doesn't list, but is listed on the first page (unless I'm reading that list incorrectly).

I no longer support Bridges. May have been an over-site the first time, as I never remember supporting him. I had to check my original list to see that he was really on there. They are both in the 80's or so all-time for me. Faber did have the bigger peak, but Bridges had a lot more quality secondary seasons and missed two seasons due to military service. Slight edge in league quality too. I think those things balance out the two big Faber years. Either way, you are right, they are pretty close. Still not sure how Bridges snuck on my list.

I feel like I just wronged Tommy Bridges (sorry!). How about Tommy John vs. Red Faber. Since John actually pitched more than Faber (and hurt his stats at the end), i'll take just to 1984. This puts Tommy at 4125 IP (Red is 4086) 114 ERA+ (119 for Red) 54.4 WAR, 24 WAA (red 61.9 WAR 28.6 WAA). They both have only 3 seasons above 5 WAR, but Tommy's are 5.3 5.3 & 5.2 compared to Red's 10.8, 8.9 and 5.3. Faber was pitching more innings per year to get some of those high totals, but he still ends up 7.5 war ahead in 40 fewer innings (when examining John only to 1984).

Tommy John is 4 times top 10 pitcher in his league (by war), but only 1 time in the top 5. Faber is twice #1 and three times overall top 10 (my previous post on Bridges I think I was looking at Faber's WAR vs all players, not just pitchers). You can of course point to the difference in opposition (Faber playing pre-integration), but is Faber really that different from Tommy John (when you take off his last few seasons, where he hurts his ERA and earns -2 WAA and 2.5 WAR)?

[Matthew C.]

The below only matters if you support Tommy John which the above post doesn't list, but is listed on the first page (unless I'm reading that list incorrectly).





I feel like I just wronged Tommy Bridges (sorry!). How about Tommy John vs. Red Faber. Since John actually pitched more than Faber (and hurt his stats at the end), i'll take just to 1984. This puts Tommy at 4125 IP (Red is 4086) 114 ERA+ (119 for Red) 54.4 WAR, 24 WAA (red 61.9 WAR 28.6 WAA). They both have only 3 seasons above 5 WAR, but Tommy's are 5.3 5.3 & 5.2 compared to Red's 10.8, 8.9 and 5.3. Faber was pitching more innings per year to get some of those high totals, but he still ends up 7.5 war ahead in 40 fewer innings (when examining John only to 1984).

Tommy John is 4 times top 10 pitcher in his league (by war), but only 1 time in the top 5. Faber is twice #1 and three times overall top 10 (my previous post on Bridges I think I was looking at Faber's WAR vs all players, not just pitchers). You can of course point to the difference in opposition (Faber playing pre-integration), but is Faber really that different from Tommy John (when you take off his last few seasons, where he hurts his ERA and earns -2 WAA and 2.5 WAR)?

I do not support John either. I have Faber 77th all time and John 79th. The LQ issue and John's WPA "Clutch" score close the two-big year gap some for me. Also, both pitched very well in postseason, but John did it for 60 more innings than Faber. FWIW, both are in the next 10 who I would put in, but don't.

[DJC]

The below only matters if you support Tommy John which the above post doesn't list, but is listed on the first page (unless I'm reading that list incorrectly).

In a subsequent post, he asked that John be dropped from his ballot.

[Matthew C.]

In a subsequent post, he asked that John be dropped from his ballot.

Man, I don't remember any of that.

[DJC]

Man, I don't remember any of that.

Neither did I. I just had to scan the thread to find it.

Plus, it was almost 3 years ago.

[baltimorechop]

I should've read more than just the first page (I did try to confirm with the charts in post #1, but i'm on an old version of Explorer at work and it really does look like there's an 'X' in the first column on this computer next to Tommy John. Explorer 7 for the loss!)

I feel like i'm going to owe more than Tommy Bridges an apology after Matthew subtracts from his Hall of Fame. Sorry Red & Eppa!

[DJC]

I should've read more than just the first page (I did try to confirm with the charts in post #1, but i'm on an old version of Explorer at work and it really does look like there's an 'X' in the first column on this computer next to Tommy John. Explorer 7 for the loss!)

I feel like i'm going to owe more than Tommy Bridges an apology after Matthew subtracts from his Hall of Fame. Sorry Red & Eppa!

I found that if you triple-click a line of text in the chart, it highlights the whole row for you. Makes it easier to see who voted for whom.

I also reformatted the charts to make them more compact. Let me know what you all think.

[jjpm74]

I just added Benny Kauff to my personal HOF.

[DJC]

I just added Benny Kauff to my personal HOF.

Got it. BTW, with Richard Stark's ballot, you've been surpassed for 2nd largest Hall.

[Richard Stark]

Thank you for the correction on Lefty Grove.,

[DJC]

Thank you for the correction on Lefty Grove.,

No prob. Everyone loves Lefty.

[baltimorechop]

I'd like to add negro league players, but first think I should read a book. Would anyone rec "only the ball was white"? Please throw out any others, I take any of your opinions far higher than amazon reviews.

[jalbright]

I'd recommend the stuff in my own musings thread in this forum (it's a stickied thread, so it's one of the top three or four). Baseball Think Factory in its Hall of Merit has some excellent discussions of Negro Leaguers.