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Thread: The Seven Circles of Fame - Level 2, The Inner Circle

  1. #1
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    The Seven Circles of Fame - Level 2, The Inner Circle

    Welcome to the second election for the Seven Circles of Fame. See the original thread for a full explanation of the project and Level 1 results.

    Here are the 15 players we named as The Immortals, the best players in the Hall of Fame:

    Top 25%
    1) Babe Ruth
    2) Ty Cobb
    3) Honus Wagner
    4) Willie Mays
    Mid-level
    5) Ted Williams
    6) Walter Johnson
    7) Stan Musial
    8) Hank Aaron
    9) Mickey Mantle
    10) Lou Gehrig
    11) Tris Speaker
    Lower 25%
    12) Rogers Hornsby
    13) Cy Young
    14) Oscar Charleston
    15) Eddie Collins

    Now in this 2nd election we will determine Level 2, The Inner Circle, identifying the next 24 players currently enshrined in Cooperstown’s Hall. So don’t give us Bonds or Maddux or ARod or Joe Jackson. However, you should consider Black ball players like J. Gibson, Paige and Lloyd. Also give consideration to 19th century stars like Anson, Brouthers, Nichols, etc.

    Since we are only ranking players in this exercise, do not give any extra credit (or discredit) if a guy also was a manager, pioneer, or whatever. Do not give any credit for being famous or colorful. Rank players only on their contributions to their teams’ quest for wins, things that have an effect on the team's fortunes in the win-loss column. This includes considering a guy’s leadership and effect on his teammates (for good or bad). Postseason play should also be given some consideration, though this should be minor, given players’ unequal opportunities for such credit. Give credit for missed playing time due to wars, strikes or short schedules. Minor league play may be considered. Players should not be penalized for PED use; if they were good enough for the HOF, consider them as having passed that test.

    I would ask you to rank them in order (1 to 24). If that’s too cumbersome at least break them up into three groups, to show the top 25% (6 players), and the bottom 25% (6 players) along with the middle 12 players.

    I always find it helpful to reference previous projects done here in the HOF forum. One I find very useful is The Collaboration Game v2.0. The History forum has also done many ranking projects that are worth reviewing.

    Here is my list:

    1) Josh Gibson
    2) Lefty Grove
    3) Mike Schmidt
    4) Joe Morgan
    5) Mel Ott
    6) Nap Lajoie
    7) Pete Alexander
    8) Frank Robinson
    9) Joe DiMaggio
    10) Pop Lloyd
    11) Johnny Bench
    12) Jimmie Foxx
    13) Ricky Henderson
    14) Cap Anson
    15) Eddie Mathews
    16) Satchel Paige
    17) Tom Seaver
    18) Warren Spahn
    19) Cal Ripken
    20) Yogi Berra
    21) Jackie Robinson
    22) George Brett
    23) Christy Mathewson
    24) Dan Brouthers

    Just missed: Arky Vaughan, Turkey Stearnes, Ed Delahanty, Bob Feller, Charlie Gehringer, Kid Nichols
    Coming up: Steve Carlton, Reggie Jackson, Carl Yastrzemski, Smokey Joe Williams, Wade Boggs, Bob Gibson

    You are free to reconsider your ballot at any time until the vote is tallied. If you do, make a post here that you have made a change.
    Eradicate, wipe out and abolish redundancy.

    Free El Duque!(and Mark Mulder) -- discover how the HOF rules are cheating this renowned member of Torre's Yankees dynasty and ask the HOF to include him on the ballot for the next BBWAA election.

  2. #2
    1. Napoleon Lajoie
    2. Jimmie Foxx
    3. Frank Robinson
    4. Mel Ott
    5. Mike Schmidt
    6. Pete Alexander
    7. Christy Mathewson
    8. Cap Anson
    9. Dan Brouthers
    10. Joe DiMaggio
    11. Lefty Grove
    12. Warren Spahn
    13. Ed Delahanty
    14. Charlie Gehringer
    15. Sam Crawford
    16. Tom Seaver
    17. Josh Gibson
    18. Wade Boggs
    19. Eddie Mathews
    20. George Brett
    21. Kid Nichols
    22. Paul Waner
    23. Johnny Mize
    24. Tony Gwynn

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    1) Josh Gibson
    2) Mike Schmidt
    3) Lefty Grove
    4) Grover Cleveland Alexander
    5) Joe Morgan
    6) Mel Ott
    7) Nap Lajoie
    8) Frank Robinson
    9) Joe DiMaggio
    10) Johnny Bench
    11) Pop Lloyd
    12) Tom Seaver
    13) Jimmie Foxx
    14) Satchel Paige
    15) Warren Spahn
    16) Cal Ripken
    17) Turkey Stearnes
    18) Eddie Mathews
    19) Ricky Henderson
    20) Ed Delahanty
    21) Yogi Berra
    22) Johnny Mize
    23) George Brett
    24) Christy Mathewson
    "The value of a stat is directly proportional to how good it makes Steve Garvey look." -- Nerdlinger

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    1. Satchel Paige
    2. Joe DiMaggio
    3. Josh Gibson
    4. Joe Morgan
    5. Lefty Grove
    6. Mike Schmidt
    7. Jimmie Foxx
    8. Frank Robinson
    9. Napoeon Lajoie
    10. Pete Alexander
    11. Mel Ott
    12. Christy Mathewson
    13. Eddie Matthews
    14. Tom Seaver
    15. Yogi Berra
    16. Warren Spahn
    17. Rickey Henderson
    18. George Brett
    19. Johnny Bench
    20. Pop Lloyd
    21. Kid Nichols
    22. Dan Brouthers
    23. Al Kaline
    24. Cap Anson

    Delahanty, Cochrane, Crawford, Clarkson, Reggie are next Mize, Boggs, Keefe, Stearnes and Gehringer after that (or something like that)

  5. #5
    In a real HOF I don't like the idea of segregating the inductees by "class". However, I'm okay for the sake of this exercise.

    1. Lefty Grove
    2. Mike Schmidt
    3. Grover Cleveland Alexander
    4. Joe DiMaggio
    5. Frank Robinson
    6. Joe Morgan
    7. Mel Ott
    8. Satchel Paige
    9. Josh Gibson
    10. Jimmie Foxx
    11. Tom Seaver
    12. Rickey Henderson
    13. Christy Mathewson
    14. Eddie Mathews
    15. Nap Lajoie
    16. Johnny Bench
    17. Yogi Berra
    18. Warren Spahn
    19. George Brett
    20. Cal Ripken Jr.
    21. Jackie Robinson
    22. Pop Lloyd
    23. Johnny Mize
    24. Dan Brouthers

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    So far, I'm the only vote for Jackie Robinson. I'm giving him "race credit", of course.

    Most Batting Wins, 500 G at 2B, age 29-33
    Code:
    Rk	Player	         BtWins	OPS+	 RC	 PA	From	 To
    1	Rogers Hornsby	30.08	177	769	3224	1925	1929
    2	Joe Morgan	25.11	160	663	3222	1973	1977
    3	Nap Lajoie	19.58	160	412	2745	1904	1908
    4	Jackie Robinson	18.21	143	563	3241	1948	1952
    5	Charlie Gehringer	15.78	135	641	3545	1932	1936
    6	Craig Biggio	15.53	131	638	3627	1995	1999
    7	Eddie Collins	13.76	134	425	3121	1916	1920
    8	Ryne Sandberg	13.72	135	532	3221	1989	1993
    EDIT: I just noticed BigRon is also supporting Jackie.
    Last edited by Freakshow; 05-06-2010 at 12:04 PM.
    Eradicate, wipe out and abolish redundancy.

    Free El Duque!(and Mark Mulder) -- discover how the HOF rules are cheating this renowned member of Torre's Yankees dynasty and ask the HOF to include him on the ballot for the next BBWAA election.

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    1. Alexander
    2. Grove
    3. Paige
    4. LaJoie
    5. Mathewson
    6. Spahn
    7. Nichols
    8. Schmidt
    9. Ott
    10. F. Robinson
    11. Stearnes
    12. J. Gibson
    13. Anson
    14. Morgan
    15. J. Williams
    16. Seaver
    17. Foxx
    18. Crawford
    19. Mathews
    20. Carlton
    21. Yastrzemski
    22. J. DiMaggio
    23. Gehringer
    24. Brouthers
    Last edited by jalbright; 05-07-2010 at 02:40 PM.
    Seen on a bumper sticker: If only closed minds came with closed mouths.
    Some minds are like concrete--thoroughly mixed up and permanently set.
    A Lincoln: I don't think much of a man who is not wiser today than he was yesterday.

  8. #8
    Quote Originally Posted by jalbright View Post
    1. Alexander
    2. Grove
    3. Paige
    4. LaJoie
    5. Mathewson
    6. Mantle
    7. Spahn
    8. Gehrig
    9. Nichols
    10. Schmidt
    11. Ott
    12. F. Robinson
    13. Stearnes
    14. J. Gibson
    15. Anson
    16. Morgan
    17. J. Williams
    18. Seaver
    19. Foxx
    20. Crawford
    21. Mathews
    22. Carlton
    23. Yastrzemski
    24. J. DiMaggio
    Mantle is number 9 in the first circle.

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    So he is. I've edited my post. Thanks.
    Seen on a bumper sticker: If only closed minds came with closed mouths.
    Some minds are like concrete--thoroughly mixed up and permanently set.
    A Lincoln: I don't think much of a man who is not wiser today than he was yesterday.

  10. #10
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    Quote Originally Posted by Freakshow View Post
    So far, I'm the only vote for Jackie Robinson. I'm giving him "race credit", of course....

    ....I just noticed BigRon is also supporting Jackie.
    You both have him listed at #21 in this round which is the 36th spot overall. Since this list only helps fill the remainder of the top 39 spots, it's reasonable to conclude that, just like you and Ron, most of us have Robinson closer to the cutoff at the end of this ballot than towards the beginning. In other words (to date), not a single voter believes Jackie Robinson is one of the 35 greatest players in the Hall of Fame. Speaking for myself, Robinson was one of the tiny handful of guys I was considering for the last spot on my ballot this time. I would expect that practically all of us will be including him in the next round. Long story short, it's just the length of this particular ballot that's creating the perception that he's not well supported. That's my guess anyway.
    "The value of a stat is directly proportional to how good it makes Steve Garvey look." -- Nerdlinger

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    Quote Originally Posted by jalbright View Post
    1. Alexander
    2. Grove
    3. Paige
    4. LaJoie
    5. Mathewson
    6. Spahn
    7. Gehrig
    8. Nichols
    9. Schmidt
    10. Ott
    11. F. Robinson
    12. Stearnes
    13. J. Gibson
    14. Anson
    15. Morgan
    16. J. Williams
    17. Seaver
    18. Foxx
    19. Crawford
    20. Mathews
    21. Carlton
    22. Yastrzemski
    23. J. DiMaggio
    24. Gehringer
    Gehrig is #10 in the first circle. Perhaps Lloyd or Bench?
    Eradicate, wipe out and abolish redundancy.

    Free El Duque!(and Mark Mulder) -- discover how the HOF rules are cheating this renowned member of Torre's Yankees dynasty and ask the HOF to include him on the ballot for the next BBWAA election.

  12. #12
    1. Grover Cleveland Alexander
    2. Lefty Grove
    3. Jimmie Foxx
    4. Josh Gibson
    5. Joe Dimaggio
    6. Mike Schimdt
    7. Satchel Paige
    8. Frank Robinson
    9. Christy Mathewson
    10. Johnny Bench
    11. Mel Ott
    12. Yogi Berra
    13. Warren Spahn
    14. Rickey Henderson
    15. Joe Morgan
    16. Steve Carlton
    17. Nap Lajoie
    18. George Brett
    19. Tom Seaver
    20. Carl Yastrzemski
    21. Wade Boggs
    22. Sandy Koufax
    23. Bob Gibson
    24. Cap Anson
    "I would walk through hell in a gasoline suit just to play baseball."-Pete Rose

  13. #13
    1. Josh Gibson
    2. Pete Alexander
    3. Nap Lajoie
    4. Mike Schmidt
    5. Mel Ott
    6. Joe Morgan
    7. Lefty Grove
    8. John Henry Lloyd
    9. Rickey Henderson
    10. Warren Spahn
    11. Satchel Paige
    12. Frank Robinson
    13. Smoky Joe Williams
    14. Cal Ripken Jr.
    15. Joe DiMaggio
    16. Turkey Stearnes
    17. Tom Seaver
    18. Arky Vaughan
    19. Christy Mathewson
    20. Cristobal Torriente
    21. Bob Feller
    22. Eddie Mathews
    23. Jimmie Foxx
    24. Johnny Bench

    Mize, Yount, Berra, Carlton and the ABC first basemen are next in line. . . .

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    Quote Originally Posted by Freakshow View Post
    Gehrig is #10 in the first circle. Perhaps Lloyd or Bench?
    I'll edit again, removing the Iron Horse. Dan Brouthers will fill the new bottom spot.
    Seen on a bumper sticker: If only closed minds came with closed mouths.
    Some minds are like concrete--thoroughly mixed up and permanently set.
    A Lincoln: I don't think much of a man who is not wiser today than he was yesterday.

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    1 Satchel Paige
    2 Joe DiMaggio
    3 Josh Gibson
    4 Tom Seaver
    5 Christy Mathewson
    6 Grover Alexander
    7 Warren Spahn
    8 Nap Lajoie
    9 Pop LLoyd
    10 Mel Ott
    11 Johnny Bench
    12 Jimmie Foxx
    13 Ed Delahanty
    14 Frank Robinson
    15 Ricky Henderson
    16 Sandy Koufax
    17 Kid Nichols
    18 Cap Anson
    19 Mike Schmidt
    20 Yogi Berra
    21 Mickey Cochrane
    22 George Brett
    23 Charlie Gehringer
    24 Hank Greenberg

    I gave extra credit for all time great peaks, which is why Koufax and Greenberg placed well. Greenberg was a monster in the 30s. Lefty Grove is deliberately left off. His peak stats are dramatically padded; the As and Yankees had most of the talent in the league and he hardly pitched to either team - he played for the As and ducked the Yankees.


    "The Fightin' Met With Two Heads" - Mike Tyson/Ray Knight!

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    Quote Originally Posted by Mongoose View Post
    1 Satchel Paige
    2 Joe DiMaggio
    3 Josh Gibson
    4 Tom Seaver
    5 Christy Mathewson
    6 Grover Alexander
    7 Warren Spahn
    8 Nap Lajoie
    9 Pop LLoyd
    10 Mel Ott
    11 Johnny Bench
    12 Jimmie Foxx
    13 Ed Delahanty
    14 Frank Robinson
    15 Ricky Henderson
    16 Sandy Koufax
    17 Kid Nichols
    18 Cap Anson
    19 Mike Schmidt
    20 Yogi Berra
    21 Mickey Cochrane
    22 George Brett
    23 Charlie Gehringer
    24 Hank Greenberg

    I gave extra credit for all time great peaks, which is why Koufax and Greenberg placed well. Greenberg was a monster in the 30s. Lefty Grove is deliberately left off. His peak stats are dramatically padded; the As and Yankees had most of the talent in the league and he hardly pitched to either team - he played for the As and ducked the Yankees.
    And DiMaggio never faced the best pitcher of his era, Satchel Paige, but meh......
    "The value of a stat is directly proportional to how good it makes Steve Garvey look." -- Nerdlinger

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    Quote Originally Posted by Mongoose View Post
    Lefty Grove is deliberately left off. His peak stats are dramatically padded; the As and Yankees had most of the talent in the league and he hardly pitched to either team - he played for the As and ducked the Yankees.
    As long as you're not singling out Grove, but applying this same criteria to every pitcher you're ranking, that's fine. Otherwise, it's extremely arbitrary and quite unfair to hold Grove to a standard being used for ranking nobody else.
    Eradicate, wipe out and abolish redundancy.

    Free El Duque!(and Mark Mulder) -- discover how the HOF rules are cheating this renowned member of Torre's Yankees dynasty and ask the HOF to include him on the ballot for the next BBWAA election.

  18. #18
    Quote Originally Posted by Freakshow View Post
    As long as you're not singling out Grove, but applying this same criteria to every pitcher you're ranking, that's fine. Otherwise, it's extremely arbitrary and quite unfair to hold Grove to a standard being used for ranking nobody else.
    I couldn't agree more.

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    Bill James' ballot

    1. J Gibson
    2. DiMaggio
    3. Morgan
    4. Paige
    5. Grove
    6. Alexander
    7. Schmidt
    8. F Robinson
    9. Stearnes
    10. Henderson
    11. Lloyd
    12. Ott
    13. Foxx
    14. Brett
    15. J Robinson
    16. E Mathews
    17. Spahn
    18. Yastrzemski
    19. Seaver
    20. Vaughan
    21. Lajoie
    22. Berra
    23. Mathewson
    24. Suttles
    Eradicate, wipe out and abolish redundancy.

    Free El Duque!(and Mark Mulder) -- discover how the HOF rules are cheating this renowned member of Torre's Yankees dynasty and ask the HOF to include him on the ballot for the next BBWAA election.

  20. #20
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    We'll give this round a couple more days before we close it out. Hopefully, a couple more of our regulars will weigh in here.
    Eradicate, wipe out and abolish redundancy.

    Free El Duque!(and Mark Mulder) -- discover how the HOF rules are cheating this renowned member of Torre's Yankees dynasty and ask the HOF to include him on the ballot for the next BBWAA election.

  21. #21
    1. Lefty Grove
    2. Josh Gibson
    3. Joe DiMaggio
    4. Tom Seaver
    5. Napoleon Lajoie
    6. Grover Cleveland Alexander
    7. Frank Robinson
    8. Christy Mathewson
    9. Satchel Paige
    10. Mike Schmidt
    11. Turkey Stearnes
    12. Joe Morgan
    13. Jimmie Foxx
    14. Mel Ott
    15. Rickey Henderson
    16. Pop Lloyd
    17. Joe Williams
    18. Warren Spahn
    19. Johnny Bench
    20. Cap Anson
    21. Yogi Berra
    22. Eddie Mathews
    23. Carl Yastrzemski
    24. George Brett
    25. Ed Delahanty
    Bill Tom George Mark Bob Ernie Soupy Dick Alex Sparky
    Joe Gary MCA Emanuel Sonny Dave Earl Stan
    Jonathan Neil Roger Anthony Ray Thomas Art Don
    Gates Philip John Warrior Rik Casey Tony Horace
    Robin JEDI

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    Results - Level 2: The Inner Circle

    Here are the results of the second poll, the 24 hall of famers that we at BBF consider to be just behind The Immortals. This is the Hall's Level 2 - The Inner Circle:
    Code:
    Rank	HOF Level 2	Pts	Bal	1st	2nd	3rd
    16	Pete Alexander	424	11	2	1	1
    17	Josh Gibson	418	11	4	1	2
    18	Mike Schmidt	411	11	0	2	1
    19	Lefty Grove	410	10	2	3	1
    20	Frank Robinson	390	11	0	0	1
    21	Joe DiMaggio	389	11	0	3	1
    22	Nap Lajoie	389	11	1	0	1
    23	Mel Ott	         387	11	0	0	0
    24	Jimmie Foxx	358	11	0	1	1
    25	Satchel Paige	352	10	2	0	1
    26	Ch. Mathewson	336	11	0	0	0
    27	Tom Seaver	333	11	0	0	0
    28	Joe Morgan	332	9	0	0	1
    29	Warren Spahn	332	11	0	0	0
    30	Ri. Henderson	265	9	0	0	0
    31	Eddie Mathews	250	9	0	0	0
    32	Johnny Bench	238	8	0	0	0
    33	Pop Lloyd	         232	8	0	0	0
    34	George Brett	214	9	0	0	0
    35	Yogi Berra	202	8	0	0	0
    36	Cap Anson	         194	7	0	0	0
    37	Turkey Stearnes	152	5	0	0	0
    38	Dan Brouthers	132	5	0	0	0
    39	Cal Ripken	119	4	0	0	0
    Also in the running:
    	Kid Nichols	107	4	0	0	0
    	Joe Williams	 96	3	0	0	0
    	Carl Yastrzemski	 92	4	0	0	0
    	Ed Delahanty	 78	3	0	0	0
    	Johnny Mize	 73	3	0	0	0
    	Ch. Gehringer	 69	3	0	0	0
    	Jackie Robinson	 68	3	0	0	0
    
    Named on 2 ballots: Sam Crawford, Steve Carlton, Wade Boggs, Arky Vaughan, Sandy Koufax.
    Named on 1 ballot: Cristobal Torriente, Bob Feller, Paul Waner, Al Kaline, Bob Gibson, Tony Gwynn, Mickey Cochrane, Hank Greenberg, Mule Suttles
    DiMaggio won the tie-breaker over Lajoie, being ranked higher on 6 of the 11 ballots.
    Morgan won the tie-breaker over Spahn, being ranked higher on 7 of the 11 ballots.

    We'll see you in the third election for The Seven Circles of Fame, when we decide on the 34 players comprising Level 3: The All-Time Greats.
    Eradicate, wipe out and abolish redundancy.

    Free El Duque!(and Mark Mulder) -- discover how the HOF rules are cheating this renowned member of Torre's Yankees dynasty and ask the HOF to include him on the ballot for the next BBWAA election.

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