The Seven Circles of Fame - Level 2, The Inner Circle

[Freakshow]

Welcome to the second election for the Seven Circles of Fame. See the original thread for a full explanation of the project and Level 1 results.

Here are the 15 players we named as The Immortals, the best players in the Hall of Fame:

Top 25%
1) Babe Ruth
2) Ty Cobb
3) Honus Wagner
4) Willie Mays
Mid-level
5) Ted Williams
6) Walter Johnson
7) Stan Musial
8) Hank Aaron
9) Mickey Mantle
10) Lou Gehrig
11) Tris Speaker
Lower 25%
12) Rogers Hornsby
13) Cy Young
14) Oscar Charleston
15) Eddie Collins

Now in this 2nd election we will determine Level 2, The Inner Circle, identifying the next 24 players currently enshrined in Cooperstown’s Hall. So don’t give us Bonds or Maddux or ARod or Joe Jackson. However, you should consider Black ball players like J. Gibson, Paige and Lloyd. Also give consideration to 19th century stars like Anson, Brouthers, Nichols, etc.

Since we are only ranking players in this exercise, do not give any extra credit (or discredit) if a guy also was a manager, pioneer, or whatever. Do not give any credit for being famous or colorful. Rank players only on their contributions to their teams’ quest for wins, things that have an effect on the team's fortunes in the win-loss column. This includes considering a guy’s leadership and effect on his teammates (for good or bad). Postseason play should also be given some consideration, though this should be minor, given players’ unequal opportunities for such credit. Give credit for missed playing time due to wars, strikes or short schedules. Minor league play may be considered. Players should not be penalized for PED use; if they were good enough for the HOF, consider them as having passed that test.

I would ask you to rank them in order (1 to 24). If that’s too cumbersome at least break them up into three groups, to show the top 25% (6 players), and the bottom 25% (6 players) along with the middle 12 players.

I always find it helpful to reference previous projects done here in the HOF forum. One I find very useful is The Collaboration Game v2.0. The History forum has also done many ranking projects that are worth reviewing.

Here is my list:

1) Josh Gibson
2) Lefty Grove
3) Mike Schmidt
4) Joe Morgan
5) Mel Ott
6) Nap Lajoie
7) Pete Alexander
8) Frank Robinson
9) Joe DiMaggio
10) Pop Lloyd
11) Johnny Bench
12) Jimmie Foxx
13) Ricky Henderson
14) Cap Anson
15) Eddie Mathews
16) Satchel Paige
17) Tom Seaver
18) Warren Spahn
19) Cal Ripken
20) Yogi Berra
21) Jackie Robinson
22) George Brett
23) Christy Mathewson
24) Dan Brouthers

Just missed: Arky Vaughan, Turkey Stearnes, Ed Delahanty, Bob Feller, Charlie Gehringer, Kid Nichols
Coming up: Steve Carlton, Reggie Jackson, Carl Yastrzemski, Smokey Joe Williams, Wade Boggs, Bob Gibson

You are free to reconsider your ballot at any time until the vote is tallied. If you do, make a post here that you have made a change.

[dgarza]

1. Napoleon Lajoie
2. Jimmie Foxx
3. Frank Robinson
4. Mel Ott
5. Mike Schmidt
6. Pete Alexander
7. Christy Mathewson
8. Cap Anson
9. Dan Brouthers
10. Joe DiMaggio
11. Lefty Grove
12. Warren Spahn
13. Ed Delahanty
14. Charlie Gehringer
15. Sam Crawford
16. Tom Seaver
17. Josh Gibson
18. Wade Boggs
19. Eddie Mathews
20. George Brett
21. Kid Nichols
22. Paul Waner
23. Johnny Mize
24. Tony Gwynn

[Brad Harris]

1) Josh Gibson
2) Mike Schmidt
3) Lefty Grove
4) Grover Cleveland Alexander
5) Joe Morgan
6) Mel Ott
7) Nap Lajoie
8) Frank Robinson
9) Joe DiMaggio
10) Johnny Bench
11) Pop Lloyd
12) Tom Seaver
13) Jimmie Foxx
14) Satchel Paige
15) Warren Spahn
16) Cal Ripken
17) Turkey Stearnes
18) Eddie Mathews
19) Ricky Henderson
20) Ed Delahanty
21) Yogi Berra
22) Johnny Mize
23) George Brett
24) Christy Mathewson

[PVNICK]

1. Satchel Paige
2. Joe DiMaggio
3. Josh Gibson
4. Joe Morgan
5. Lefty Grove
6. Mike Schmidt
7. Jimmie Foxx
8. Frank Robinson
9. Napoeon Lajoie
10. Pete Alexander
11. Mel Ott
12. Christy Mathewson
13. Eddie Matthews
14. Tom Seaver
15. Yogi Berra
16. Warren Spahn
17. Rickey Henderson
18. George Brett
19. Johnny Bench
20. Pop Lloyd
21. Kid Nichols
22. Dan Brouthers
23. Al Kaline
24. Cap Anson

Delahanty, Cochrane, Crawford, Clarkson, Reggie are next Mize, Boggs, Keefe, Stearnes and Gehringer after that (or something like that)

[BigRon]

In a real HOF I don't like the idea of segregating the inductees by "class". However, I'm okay for the sake of this exercise.

1. Lefty Grove
2. Mike Schmidt
3. Grover Cleveland Alexander
4. Joe DiMaggio
5. Frank Robinson
6. Joe Morgan
7. Mel Ott
8. Satchel Paige
9. Josh Gibson
10. Jimmie Foxx
11. Tom Seaver
12. Rickey Henderson
13. Christy Mathewson
14. Eddie Mathews
15. Nap Lajoie
16. Johnny Bench
17. Yogi Berra
18. Warren Spahn
19. George Brett
20. Cal Ripken Jr.
21. Jackie Robinson
22. Pop Lloyd
23. Johnny Mize
24. Dan Brouthers

[Freakshow]

So far, I'm the only vote for Jackie Robinson. I'm giving him "race credit", of course.

Most Batting Wins, 500 G at 2B, age 29-33

Rk	Player	         BtWins	OPS+	 RC	 PA	From	 To
1	Rogers Hornsby	30.08	177	769	3224	1925	1929
2	Joe Morgan	25.11	160	663	3222	1973	1977
3	Nap Lajoie	19.58	160	412	2745	1904	1908
4	Jackie Robinson	18.21	143	563	3241	1948	1952
5	Charlie Gehringer	15.78	135	641	3545	1932	1936
6	Craig Biggio	15.53	131	638	3627	1995	1999
7	Eddie Collins	13.76	134	425	3121	1916	1920
8	Ryne Sandberg	13.72	135	532	3221	1989	1993

EDIT: I just noticed BigRon is also supporting Jackie.

[jalbright]

1. Alexander
2. Grove
3. Paige
4. LaJoie
5. Mathewson
6. Spahn
7. Nichols
8. Schmidt
9. Ott
10. F. Robinson
11. Stearnes
12. J. Gibson
13. Anson
14. Morgan
15. J. Williams
16. Seaver
17. Foxx
18. Crawford
19. Mathews
20. Carlton
21. Yastrzemski
22. J. DiMaggio
23. Gehringer
24. Brouthers

[BigRon]

1. Alexander
2. Grove
3. Paige
4. LaJoie
5. Mathewson
6. Mantle
7. Spahn
8. Gehrig
9. Nichols
10. Schmidt
11. Ott
12. F. Robinson
13. Stearnes
14. J. Gibson
15. Anson
16. Morgan
17. J. Williams
18. Seaver
19. Foxx
20. Crawford
21. Mathews
22. Carlton
23. Yastrzemski
24. J. DiMaggio

Mantle is number 9 in the first circle.

[jalbright]

So he is. I've edited my post. Thanks.

[Brad Harris]

So far, I'm the only vote for Jackie Robinson. I'm giving him "race credit", of course....

....I just noticed BigRon is also supporting Jackie.

You both have him listed at #21 in this round which is the 36th spot overall. Since this list only helps fill the remainder of the top 39 spots, it's reasonable to conclude that, just like you and Ron, most of us have Robinson closer to the cutoff at the end of this ballot than towards the beginning. In other words (to date), not a single voter believes Jackie Robinson is one of the 35 greatest players in the Hall of Fame. Speaking for myself, Robinson was one of the tiny handful of guys I was considering for the last spot on my ballot this time. I would expect that practically all of us will be including him in the next round. Long story short, it's just the length of this particular ballot that's creating the perception that he's not well supported. That's my guess anyway.

[Freakshow]

1. Alexander
2. Grove
3. Paige
4. LaJoie
5. Mathewson
6. Spahn
7. Gehrig
8. Nichols
9. Schmidt
10. Ott
11. F. Robinson
12. Stearnes
13. J. Gibson
14. Anson
15. Morgan
16. J. Williams
17. Seaver
18. Foxx
19. Crawford
20. Mathews
21. Carlton
22. Yastrzemski
23. J. DiMaggio
24. Gehringer

Gehrig is #10 in the first circle. Perhaps Lloyd or Bench?

[swingman24]

1. Grover Cleveland Alexander
2. Lefty Grove
3. Jimmie Foxx
4. Josh Gibson
5. Joe Dimaggio
6. Mike Schimdt
7. Satchel Paige
8. Frank Robinson
9. Christy Mathewson
10. Johnny Bench
11. Mel Ott
12. Yogi Berra
13. Warren Spahn
14. Rickey Henderson
15. Joe Morgan
16. Steve Carlton
17. Nap Lajoie
18. George Brett
19. Tom Seaver
20. Carl Yastrzemski
21. Wade Boggs
22. Sandy Koufax
23. Bob Gibson
24. Cap Anson

[Tiboreau]

1. Josh Gibson
2. Pete Alexander
3. Nap Lajoie
4. Mike Schmidt
5. Mel Ott
6. Joe Morgan
7. Lefty Grove
8. John Henry Lloyd
9. Rickey Henderson
10. Warren Spahn
11. Satchel Paige
12. Frank Robinson
13. Smoky Joe Williams
14. Cal Ripken Jr.
15. Joe DiMaggio
16. Turkey Stearnes
17. Tom Seaver
18. Arky Vaughan
19. Christy Mathewson
20. Cristobal Torriente
21. Bob Feller
22. Eddie Mathews
23. Jimmie Foxx
24. Johnny Bench

Mize, Yount, Berra, Carlton and the ABC first basemen are next in line. . . .

[jalbright]

Gehrig is #10 in the first circle. Perhaps Lloyd or Bench?

I'll edit again, removing the Iron Horse. Dan Brouthers will fill the new bottom spot.

[Mongoose]

1 Satchel Paige
2 Joe DiMaggio
3 Josh Gibson
4 Tom Seaver
5 Christy Mathewson
6 Grover Alexander
7 Warren Spahn
8 Nap Lajoie
9 Pop LLoyd
10 Mel Ott
11 Johnny Bench
12 Jimmie Foxx
13 Ed Delahanty
14 Frank Robinson
15 Ricky Henderson
16 Sandy Koufax
17 Kid Nichols
18 Cap Anson
19 Mike Schmidt
20 Yogi Berra
21 Mickey Cochrane
22 George Brett
23 Charlie Gehringer
24 Hank Greenberg

I gave extra credit for all time great peaks, which is why Koufax and Greenberg placed well. Greenberg was a monster in the 30s. Lefty Grove is deliberately left off. His peak stats are dramatically padded; the As and Yankees had most of the talent in the league and he hardly pitched to either team - he played for the As and ducked the Yankees.

[Brad Harris]

1 Satchel Paige
2 Joe DiMaggio
3 Josh Gibson
4 Tom Seaver
5 Christy Mathewson
6 Grover Alexander
7 Warren Spahn
8 Nap Lajoie
9 Pop LLoyd
10 Mel Ott
11 Johnny Bench
12 Jimmie Foxx
13 Ed Delahanty
14 Frank Robinson
15 Ricky Henderson
16 Sandy Koufax
17 Kid Nichols
18 Cap Anson
19 Mike Schmidt
20 Yogi Berra
21 Mickey Cochrane
22 George Brett
23 Charlie Gehringer
24 Hank Greenberg

I gave extra credit for all time great peaks, which is why Koufax and Greenberg placed well. Greenberg was a monster in the 30s. Lefty Grove is deliberately left off. His peak stats are dramatically padded; the As and Yankees had most of the talent in the league and he hardly pitched to either team - he played for the As and ducked the Yankees.

And DiMaggio never faced the best pitcher of his era, Satchel Paige, but meh......

[Freakshow]

Lefty Grove is deliberately left off. His peak stats are dramatically padded; the As and Yankees had most of the talent in the league and he hardly pitched to either team - he played for the As and ducked the Yankees.

As long as you're not singling out Grove, but applying this same criteria to every pitcher you're ranking, that's fine. Otherwise, it's extremely arbitrary and quite unfair to hold Grove to a standard being used for ranking nobody else.

[BigRon]

As long as you're not singling out Grove, but applying this same criteria to every pitcher you're ranking, that's fine. Otherwise, it's extremely arbitrary and quite unfair to hold Grove to a standard being used for ranking nobody else.

I couldn't agree more.

[Freakshow]

Bill James' ballot

1. J Gibson
2. DiMaggio
3. Morgan
4. Paige
5. Grove
6. Alexander
7. Schmidt
8. F Robinson
9. Stearnes
10. Henderson
11. Lloyd
12. Ott
13. Foxx
14. Brett
15. J Robinson
16. E Mathews
17. Spahn
18. Yastrzemski
19. Seaver
20. Vaughan
21. Lajoie
22. Berra
23. Mathewson
24. Suttles

[Freakshow]

We'll give this round a couple more days before we close it out. Hopefully, a couple more of our regulars will weigh in here.

[Captain Cold Nose]

1. Lefty Grove
2. Josh Gibson
3. Joe DiMaggio
4. Tom Seaver
5. Napoleon Lajoie
6. Grover Cleveland Alexander
7. Frank Robinson
8. Christy Mathewson
9. Satchel Paige
10. Mike Schmidt
11. Turkey Stearnes
12. Joe Morgan
13. Jimmie Foxx
14. Mel Ott
15. Rickey Henderson
16. Pop Lloyd
17. Joe Williams
18. Warren Spahn
19. Johnny Bench
20. Cap Anson
21. Yogi Berra
22. Eddie Mathews
23. Carl Yastrzemski
24. George Brett
25. Ed Delahanty

[Freakshow]

Here are the results of the second poll, the 24 hall of famers that we at BBF consider to be just behind The Immortals. This is the Hall's Level 2 - The Inner Circle:

Rank	HOF Level 2	Pts	Bal	1st	2nd	3rd
16	Pete Alexander	424	11	2	1	1
17	Josh Gibson	418	11	4	1	2
18	Mike Schmidt	411	11	0	2	1
19	Lefty Grove	410	10	2	3	1
20	Frank Robinson	390	11	0	0	1
21	Joe DiMaggio	389	11	0	3	1
22	Nap Lajoie	389	11	1	0	1
23	Mel Ott	         387	11	0	0	0
24	Jimmie Foxx	358	11	0	1	1
25	Satchel Paige	352	10	2	0	1
26	Ch. Mathewson	336	11	0	0	0
27	Tom Seaver	333	11	0	0	0
28	Joe Morgan	332	9	0	0	1
29	Warren Spahn	332	11	0	0	0
30	Ri. Henderson	265	9	0	0	0
31	Eddie Mathews	250	9	0	0	0
32	Johnny Bench	238	8	0	0	0
33	Pop Lloyd	         232	8	0	0	0
34	George Brett	214	9	0	0	0
35	Yogi Berra	202	8	0	0	0
36	Cap Anson	         194	7	0	0	0
37	Turkey Stearnes	152	5	0	0	0
38	Dan Brouthers	132	5	0	0	0
39	Cal Ripken	119	4	0	0	0
Also in the running:
	Kid Nichols	107	4	0	0	0
	Joe Williams	 96	3	0	0	0
	Carl Yastrzemski	 92	4	0	0	0
	Ed Delahanty	 78	3	0	0	0
	Johnny Mize	 73	3	0	0	0
	Ch. Gehringer	 69	3	0	0	0
	Jackie Robinson	 68	3	0	0	0

Named on 2 ballots: Sam Crawford, Steve Carlton, Wade Boggs, Arky Vaughan, Sandy Koufax.
Named on 1 ballot: Cristobal Torriente, Bob Feller, Paul Waner, Al Kaline, Bob Gibson, Tony Gwynn, Mickey Cochrane, Hank Greenberg, Mule Suttles

DiMaggio won the tie-breaker over Lajoie, being ranked higher on 6 of the 11 ballots.
Morgan won the tie-breaker over Spahn, being ranked higher on 7 of the 11 ballots.

We'll see you in the third election for The Seven Circles of Fame, when we decide on the 34 players comprising Level 3: The All-Time Greats.