Multi-million dollar mechanics

[jdfromfla]

You too can make 11.8 million dollars before you turn 30...ROY...
If you believe that copying mechanics is worth while...what a bargin..

I'm really glad to see this...
He is, by all reports one of the really good guys.

This is an open vid...not restricted..so you guys are seeing it early on

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Qk_GWTyLtzo

still has those monster calf muscles too

[Chris O'Leary]

You too can make 11.8 million dollars before you turn 30...ROY...
If you believe that copying mechanics is worth while...what a bargin..

I'm really glad to see this...
He is, by all reports one of the really good guys.

This is an open vid...not restricted..so you guys are seeing it early on

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Qk_GWTyLtzo

still has those monster calf muscles too

His arm action is somewhat better -- no Inverted W -- but he's still got the significant timing problem, due in part to how late he breaks his hands.

Unfortunately, this isn't going to fix things.

[FiveFrameSwing]

His arm action is somewhat better -- no Inverted W -- but he's still got the significant timing problem, due in part to how late he breaks his hands.

Unfortunately, this isn't going to fix things.

Was your intent with this post to be helpful? What are the fixes you feel that are needed?

[Chris O'Leary]

Was your intent with this post to be helpful? What are the fixes you feel that are needed?

I'd start with breaking his hands earlier.

He's also got to get the external rotation of his PAS upper arm going sooner (e.g. show the ball to 3B sooner).

Right now his arm is really late.

Unfortunately, this may be by design because IIRC House has talked about the importance of a fast arm (at least in the past).

P.S. This also makes the point that just because you make the Inverted W you aren't necessarily in trouble and just because you don't make the Inverted W you aren't necessarily fine. What matters is timing.

[jdfromfla]

At full footstrike he is exactly equal and opposite (Frames 66 & 67). Define the timing issue. What constitutes a timing issue if not this benchmark?

Here is what one of those scouts you are so fond of pushing thought;

Mark Prior's agent says that one club wants to sign the right-hander after his workout this week, tweets Tom Krasovic of AOL Fanhouse. Prior reportedly hit the magic number of 90 mph during his workout.

A big we will see. If he breaks down again well you I'm sure will gloat at his misfortune. One thing you can't refute..the guy has made many millions, he's worked his way this far back and at least one team is interested, I would consider that to be laudable and a good thing..something to point a kid to and say..that dude cares about what he does..and he dreams. If only we could teach that sort of courage and effort.

[trademark]

At frame 65, the gentalman in the above video is not in the same postion as the pitcher in the below image.

[dominik]

I'd start with breaking his hands earlier.

He's also got to get the external rotation of his PAS upper arm going sooner (e.g. show the ball to 3B sooner).

Right now his arm is really late.

Unfortunately, this may be by design because IIRC House has talked about the importance of a fast arm (at least in the past).

P.S. This also makes the point that just because you make the Inverted W you aren't necessarily in trouble and just because you don't make the Inverted W you aren't necessarily fine. What matters is timing.

Marshall is also talking about this. He wants to break with the hands(and lead with the ball instead of the elboww) and start to externally rotate the arm when you start the backswing. This is alot better for the arm but on the other hand maybe creates less stretch in the arm.

Some guys are teaching "scapula loading" which means that you led to break with the elbows and try to pinch the elbow behind the shoulder line with the hand following.
This can create a little more velocity but is very dangerous for the arm.
I think one should choose something in between. if you are only health oriented like marshall you will never get injured and can pitch forever but might never reac a top level. and on the other way round only searching for power can kill the arm fast.

With a child I would teach a healthy arm motion and get speed from the important things(core, legs, hips). later he can still do things like scapula loading if he wants.

[dominik]

chris: you are correct on the timing thing.
The acceleration of a ball can't begin before maximum external rotation of the arm(because the throw is an internal rotation of the upper arm).
correct timing means that maximum external rotation is reached at the moment the elbow starts to pull forward.

too late and you have that late forearm turnover where the elbow pull forward while the ball going backward which results in a shortened acceleration path and banging the arm. too early and you loose power because of no stretch reflex(like you see in many marshall pitching videos-at leat in their drills don't know game footage).

[jdfromfla]

At frame 65, the gentalman in the above video is not in the same postion as the pitcher in the below image

Are you suggesting that the guy in your picture is the standard, or that he's not at equal and opposite? Are you saying everyone should look the same? Could you clarify your point?

[Chris O'Leary]

At full footstrike he is exactly equal and opposite (Frames 66 & 67).

Obviously symmetry (equal and opposite) isn't the be all end all that some say.

Define the timing issue.

His Pitching Arm Side (PAS) upper arm is at 0 degrees of external rotation when the glove side foot plants when it should be closer to 90 degrees of external rotation.

This is Prior's core problem, not the Inverted W.

The Inverted W and his arm action just worsen his timing.

What constitutes a timing issue if not this benchmark?

Rushing = Timing Problem
Habitual Rushing = Mark Prior, BJ Ryan, etc.

Here is what one of those scouts you are so fond of pushing thought;

Mark Prior's agent says that one club wants to sign the right-hander after his workout this week, tweets Tom Krasovic of AOL Fanhouse. Prior reportedly hit the magic number of 90 mph during his workout.

Let's see how this works out.

A big we will see. If he breaks down again well you I'm sure will gloat at his misfortune.

What kind of person do you think I am?

What he's going through is a tragedy, a tragedy that is made all the worse by the fact that he was taught these mechanics. Maybe he'd never have made it without these mechanics, but I doubt it.

If he called me I would work with him in a second.

I am currently talking to two major league pitchers who decided to copy Mark Prior's mechanics in their formative years and who are now regretting that decision due to chronic injury problems.

[Chris O'Leary]

chris: you are correct on the timing thing.
The acceleration of a ball can't begin before maximum external rotation of the arm(because the throw is an internal rotation of the upper arm).
correct timing means that maximum external rotation is reached at the moment the elbow starts to pull forward.

Sorry, but this is wrong.

Marshall ideas on this are full of holes.

Even his best guys don't do this (because the laws of physics dictate certain things).

[dominik]

Sorry, but this is wrong.

Marshall ideas on this are full of holes.

Even his best guys don't do this (because the laws of physics dictate certain things).

The external rotation of the arm is getting up to high cock early. Teaching that is the same thing as teaching early external rotation. Late external rotation is the "inverterted W with the elbow coming up before the hand. The move that gets you from inverted W to high cock is external rotation of the humerus.

If it is late the ext. rotation is very fast and creates high forces in the arm. Earlier rotation creates a smoother transition to the start of the pull when the arm is externally rotated.

[trademark]

Are you suggesting that the guy in your picture is the standard, or that he's not at equal and opposite? Are you saying everyone should look the same? Could you clarify your point?

I am saying that from what I've watched on DVD's and read, the picture I posted from CO's site is the position you should be in at foot plant.
There are to many opinions for it to be THE standard.

[jdfromfla]

What kind of person do you think I am?

Well Chris isn't that open ended...Well years ago when we were both admins on a different board, I thought you were a guy who wanted to help..now? I think you've tried to establish your reputation by destroying two good mens reputation. I believe it misguided and I believe it to be a weak way to get people to listen to you. No matter what you say or how you say it, you have very little experience, you've not trained or participated at any meaningful level in the art, you are a tremendous marketeer, and quite an egotist...thinking that your study of still pictures and your insinuating yourself into some MLB exposure somehow trumps the good hard work of guys who actually paid their dues.
I think you have no understanding of the scientific method, though you use psudo-scientific jargon, I think when presented with irrefutable evidence of something, you follow a certain political style and just act like it isn't there.
I think that you've done as well as anyone who started from scratch on this huge internet world..you'll get people to believe you..give you their money...so does the guy who invented the hit away.

Obviously symmetry (equal and opposite) isn't the be all end all that some say

This is just typical of you..I wasn't advocating anything..I was establishing a basis for discussion..you see, to have timing..you have to have a point that establishes timing....traditionally..classically, the way the several professional pitching coaches that I know establish timing is at the power position..you never being trained, have obviously devised some super-intelligent new timing point so I was inviting you to share it with us. You do go on and on about "timing" Chris..I've never ever seen you define it.

This is Prior's core problem, not the Inverted W.

The Inverted W and his arm action just worsen his timing.

Wow I guess you better get to updating your site...did you tell yourself you've been wrong all this time?

Rushing = Timing Problem
Habitual Rushing = Mark Prior, BJ Ryan, etc

Jargon..meaningless jargon.


So how come no one wants to celebrate the fact that this guy...so demonized by certain folks..with "the worst mechanics", has been able to battle back from such terrible odds..isn't that really what we ought to be discussing. I find it just phenominal..the horrendous injuries he's sustained and the torrent of negative crud about how "terrible" this and that...He isn't my favorite ballplayer btw, he's a kid who I admire for his fortitude and desire, this desire trumps the negativity...man we need that sort..I wish and hope my kid wants to emulate that (He's smart enough to know his mechanics are his own and has had great success with them..copying anyones mechanics is stupid and wrong).

[dominik]

@jdfromla
Are you actually wanting to discuss mechanics or just starting a fight?
Let us now what you think about pitching mechanics.

[jdfromfla]

Was this about discussing mechs..I was bringing forth that this guy made a come back. Yes I did say in the title that they were multi-million dollar mechs..but that was truthful now wasn't it? He's made 11.8 mill in his career, those mechs earned that. What is your standard of success?
This site had the first opportunity outside of the major leagues to see his delivery, this vid was shot this week.
Did I think Chris would jump in there and have to prognosticate his doom? Of course I knew he wouldn't be able to resist. But I do try to help him along in his quest to be the authority on it all.
I don't think Prior has a timing issue. I think one pitch is no way to judge anything..though I'm glad to see him look good here and thow in an easy manner.
Now instead of poking me in the eye why don't you address the op? Isn't it great to see a guy get back after such a rough go? I don't know of any pitcher lately who has had so far to go to get back to it. It's a great story.imo I thought I'd share it.
Jake/Cannon..if I'm being too antagonistic here I apologize.

[jdfromfla]

I am saying that from what I've watched on DVD's and read, the picture I posted from CO's site is the position you should be in at foot plant.
There are to many opinions for it to be THE standard

.

But yet you say it's the standard.

To say that David Kopp is in the position that everyone should be in..David is an exceptional kid and a minor leaguer....nice form..not saying a bad thing about him but think about what you said.
Prior doesn't look like Pedro or Johnson or Maddux at the power position either..but they don't look like each other either. The power position..in traditional mechanics (Non MM) is defined as equal and opposite at footstrike. Prior's E&O looks different than others and others look different from him, this is why your comment was incoherent to me and why I asked for clarification.
btw that picture is post footstrike..his weight is already on his front foot..so if we all follow what you are saying, having a timing issue (Because if your weight is already out front at footstrike your timing is whacked) is what we should have.

[Chris O'Leary]

The acceleration of a ball can't begin before maximum external rotation of the arm(because the throw is an internal rotation of the upper arm).

This is not true of a high-level throw.

The ball starts accelerating before maximum ER.

[Chris O'Leary]

Well Chris isn't that open ended...Well years ago when we were both admins on a different board, I thought you were a guy who wanted to help..now? I think you've tried to establish your reputation by destroying two good mens reputation.

Pointing out that Mark Prior has a mechanical flaw is not trying to destroy his reputation. It's attempting to help him.

I'm also not trying to destroy Tom House's reputation. I'm just trying toget him to be accountable for his actions instead of blaming Prior's problems on Prior.

I believe it misguided and I believe it to be a weak way to get people to listen to you. No matter what you say or how you say it, you have very little experience, you've not trained or participated at any meaningful level in the art, you are a tremendous marketeer, and quite an egotist...thinking that your study of still pictures and your insinuating yourself into some MLB exposure somehow trumps the good hard work of guys who actually paid their dues. I think you have no understanding of the scientific method, though you use psudo-scientific jargon, I think when presented with irrefutable evidence of something, you follow a certain political style and just act like it isn't there.
I think that you've done as well as anyone who started from scratch on this huge internet world..you'll get people to believe you..give you their money...so does the guy who invented the hit away.

We have established multiple times on this board that the experts often have no idea what they are talking about.

This is just typical of you..I wasn't advocating anything..I was establishing a basis for discussion..you see, to have timing..you have to have a point that establishes timing....traditionally..classically, the way the several professional pitching coaches that I know establish timing is at the power position..you never being trained, have obviously devised some super-intelligent new timing point so I was inviting you to share it with us. You do go on and on about "timing" Chris..I've never ever seen you define it.

Rushing, which is a form of a timing problem, is a very common and well-recognized problem among pitching coaches.

Wat I am doing is pointing out that rushing has negative health consequences, not just negative performance consequences.

My views are accepted by multiple professional pitching coaches and doctors, so your view of them means nothing to me.

Wow I guess you better get to updating your site...did you tell yourself you've been wrong all this time?

I've been pointing out this distinction for at least 2 years.

Jargon..meaningless jargon.

Rushing is a very common and accepted term among pitching coaches.

So how come no one wants to celebrate the fact that this guy...so demonized by certain folks..with "the worst mechanics", has been able to battle back from such terrible odds..isn't that really what we ought to be discussing. I find it just phenominal..the horrendous injuries he's sustained and the torrent of negative crud about how "terrible" this and that...He isn't my favorite ballplayer btw, he's a kid who I admire for his fortitude and desire, this desire trumps the negativity...man we need that sort..I wish and hope my kid wants to emulate that (He's smart enough to know his mechanics are his own and has had great success with them..copying anyones mechanics is stupid and wrong).

I absultely admire his drive and good faith.

[Chris O'Leary]

Prior doesn't look like Pedro or Johnson or Maddux at the power position either..but they don't look like each other either.

Prior does it wrong, and it explains everything.







Prior needs to stop listening to House and start listening to the greats.

btw that picture is post footstrike..his weight is already on his front foot..so if we all follow what you are saying, having a timing issue (Because if your weight is already out front at footstrike your timing is whacked) is what we should have.

You have no idea what you are seeing or talking about.

[jdfromfla]

Rushing is a very common and accepted term among pitching coaches.

Which one? Who told you? Where did you learn it and what exactly does it mean?

As for my not knowing what I'm seeing....the picture posted of him, David Kopp from your web site (By Trademark), where it shows him at frame 75 shows he's already turned his back foot over so his weight HAS to be transferred..are you attempting to say that this is at the point of footstrike or clearly showing once again you really don't understand?
Is it different than I just described...is he not got his weight moving on the front portion?

It is ironic to me that I can name and not damage the professionals in whom I've learned and base my understanding, you on the other hand refer to shadowy people who are never named but that they have all this belief in you, I've seen one guy write a nice note to you on your site and say he thought you might be on to something..wow thats a ringing endorsement...but you find your renown to be infinately greater than even someone like House. And while we are at House... You throw up a picture of two guys who credit him..how about that? House hasn't been stuck like you on some bug-a-boo, he trains pitchers, he's recognized by people around the world as the foremost in the area..what does he do? He promotes arm health, he builds people up..he's got no time for small people who take constant swipes at him hoping to somehow make their ignorant claims correct..he's taken his methods on the road..not to make himself famous (He already was) but to help other people who care try to assist people/kids to develop into the highest potential they may have. You can't poke holes in that..heck you can't even poke holes in the things he does teach..you take a guy who..I've proven in so many ways was never ever injured before the Giles collision and attempt to establish yourself as an expert by saying the injury was caused by the mechanics the Tom House trained into him...this is a flat lie..an untruth..fabrication O'Leary and your weak ass has tried to gain money and rep on that lie..I call you on it every opportunity...Dominik is right..I guess I did bait you into being you yet again..but hey you had an opportunity to be a class act and say something like "hey the guy is trying..or how about that for effort or nice day in San Diego....instead..on one pitch..one stinkin pitch you declare that it's utter failure. Way to go Sparky..As to your like, respect or any emote you may have about me...when you can't argue facts attack..thats another marketing technique...come talk to me after you've spent 30 years training players and had success doing it.

[dominik]

I haven't read anything about mechanics from you yet. just how much more experienced you are and that chris shouldn't critizise people that have made more money than him.

I'm not saying that chris is the geatest baseball expert, but this is a technique forum. so why don't you say what you don't like about chris baseball opinions instead of questioning his credentials? should be easy with your experience

[Chris O'Leary]

Which one? Who told you? Where did you learn it and what exactly does it mean?

Just google the term rushing and you can learn all you'd like.

As for my not knowing what I'm seeing....the picture posted of him, David Kopp from your web site (By Trademark), where it shows him at frame 75 shows he's already turned his back foot over so his weight HAS to be transferred..are you attempting to say that this is at the point of footstrike or clearly showing once again you really don't understand?

Pitchers stride and move their weight from their back foot to their front foot.

Some are even up in the air for a frame or two.

Is it different than I just described...is he not got his weight moving on the front portion?

What point are you trying to make, exactly?

It is ironic to me that I can name and not damage the professionals in whom I've learned and base my understanding, you on the other hand refer to shadowy people who are never named but that they have all this belief in you, I've seen one guy write a nice note to you on your site and say he thought you might be on to something..wow thats a ringing endorsement.

I don't post their names to protect their privacy and my relationship with them.

I've already named one client and certain people have done everything in their power to damage our relationship by lying about what I have said about him.

Stupid, little girl playground garbage like, "So Andres, Chris O'Leary is going around telling everyone that he taught you everything you know. What do you think about that?"

Jake knows who I know.

but you find your renown to be infinately greater than even someone like House.

I don't care about my renown. I care about being right about what's safe.

In the past, House seems to have been overly fixated on velocity (steroids, fast arm) and I don't see any evidence that he has changed that fixation.

And while we are at House... You throw up a picture of two guys who credit him..how about that?

What's weird is that they don't do what he teaches.

They certainly don't do the Inverted W.

House hasn't been stuck like you on some bug-a-boo, he trains pitchers, he's recognized by people around the world as the foremost in the area..what does he do? He promotes arm health, he builds people up..he's got no time for small people who take constant swipes at him hoping to somehow make their ignorant claims correct..he's taken his methods on the road..not to make himself famous (He already was) but to help other people who care try to assist people/kids to develop into the highest potential they may have. You can't poke holes in that..heck you can't even poke holes in the things he does teach..you take a guy who.

As long as apologists like you keep defending House and ascribing Prior's problems to fluke accidents, people will keep getting injured.

I've proven in so many ways was never ever injured before the Giles collision...

You haven't proven a thing.

...attempt to establish yourself as an expert by saying the injury was caused by the mechanics the Tom House trained into him...this is a flat lie..an untruth..fabrication O'Leary and your weak ass has tried to gain money and rep on that lie..I call you on it every opportunity.

House is on the record as having worked with Prior for 6 years. The fact that Mark Prior and Anthony Reyes and Ian Kennedy, three House proteges, have the same basic arm action proves that this is something they were taught.

Now, ultimately the fault probably lies with Nyman, who first advocated scap loading by breaking the hands with the elbows, but House bears responsibility for not checking out what he was teaching before he taught it.

House just adopted an idea and ran with it without researching it.

I discuss some of what I know in the piece...

- Mark Prior's "Perfect" Pitching Mechanics

..Dominik is right..I guess I did bait you into being you yet again..but hey you had an opportunity to be a class act and say something like "hey the guy is trying..or how about that for effort or nice day in San Diego....instead..on one pitch..one stinkin pitch you declare that it's utter failure. Way to go Sparky..As to your like, respect or any emote you may have about me...when you can't argue facts attack..thats another marketing technique...come talk to me after you've spent 30 years training players and had success doing it.

I hope to God that Mark Prior succeeds, but my experience tells me that he won't.

[jdfromfla]

I think I've made many comments about mechs Dominik..perhaps you missed them..

Prior doesn't look like Pedro or Johnson or Maddux at the power position either..but they don't look like each other either. The power position..in traditional mechanics (Non MM) is defined as equal and opposite at footstrike. Prior's E&O looks different than others and others look different from him, this is why your comment was incoherent to me and why I asked for clarification.
btw that picture is post footstrike..his weight is already on his front foot..so if we all follow what you are saying, having a timing issue (Because if your weight is already out front at footstrike your timing is whacked) is what we should have.


..copying anyones mechanics is stupid and wrong

I don't think Prior has a timing issue. I think one pitch is no way to judge anything..though I'm glad to see him look good here and thow in an easy manner

I was establishing a basis for discussion..you see, to have timing..you have to have a point that establishes timing....traditionally..classically, the way the several professional pitching coaches that I know establish timing is at the power position..you never being trained, have obviously devised some super-intelligent new timing point so I was inviting share it with us. You do go on and on about "timing" Chris..I've never ever seen you define it.

Now agree or disagree these things are discussing mechs..even though as I said, I was celebrating his return..I said a few other things but you can see that it's not all about attacking Chris. As you very obviously want it to go..look here..I've shown you to be wrong in calling me out. I made no bad juju here...but if ya gotta go there I won't be backing down any
If you go back to the start and look at the dates, I made no response at all to Chris forecasting his doom. Let it be because I was hoping to see someone else appreciate the great effort, then fiveframe made a comment
I made no negative statement of any kind until the 14th post..every post I made previously made no attempt to descend anywhere..actually just tried to stay on the positive side of the whole thing..I responded honestly to Chris' question to me, which is when things started going south.
I didn't call him names but I called it as I saw it..you seem to like him quite a bit..ok by me..but you are wrong thinking me the bad guy or off topic..disagree with my mechanics thoughts or credentials..he questioned mine not mine his..as usual he threw out the "scouts" and "others" as his badge of credability..mine is slim Dominik..really so..in comparison, I acknowledge that....Name me anything else played on earth where someone can become "expert"...not by playing and learning but by looking at pictures and applying personal previous experience from another industry (Insurance). This is what you accept in front of a guy like House who was a major leaguer, is credited by 2 of the greatest pithers who ever laced em up as saving or extending their careers, has coached very successfully for YEARS... DECADES in the major leagues and is now doing so with one of the most honored and respected D-1's ever..come on...

[Chris O'Leary]

If you go back to the start and look at the dates, I made no response at all to Chris forecasting his doom. Let it be because I was hoping to see someone else appreciate the great effort, then fiveframe made a comment I made no negative statement of any kind until the 14th post. ..every post I made previously made no attempt to descend anywhere..actually just tried to stay on the positive side of the whole thing..I responded honestly to Chris' question to me, which is when things started going south.

Liar.

Here's you in post 5...

If he breaks down again well you I'm sure will gloat at his misfortune.

Classy.