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Thread: Post-WWII Playoff

  1. #21
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    I voted in the post before BR did (although if you WANT me to vote twice...)

    Maybe we should post this in Between Innings for a couple days, to get more opinions?

  2. #22
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    Quote Originally Posted by Wade8813 View Post
    Obviously there will be some subjectivity to it - that's why we vote, instead of just declaring me the winner

    My second method would be to pretend that everyone on your team was a rookie this year. They each produce their real rookie season's production, and compare how the teams do with that production. Then for the next year, look at everyone's sophomore year value, etc.
    That's not complicated at all.
    Mythical SF Chronicle scouting report: "That Jeff runs like a deer. Unfortunately, he also hits AND throws like one." I am Venus DeMilo - NO ARM! I can play like a big leaguer, I can field like Luzinski, run like Lombardi. The secret to managing is keeping the ones who hate you away from the undecided ones. I am a triumph of quantity over quality. I'm almost useful, every village needs an idiot.
    Good traders: MadHatter(2), BoofBonser26, StormSurge

  3. #23
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    Key Obezags and N.A. Grahams are in regardless of RMB, but the Bums/Knights teeters on his very whim.
    "Allen Sutton Sothoron pitched his initials off today."--1920s article

  4. #24
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    I believe the N. A. Grahams could beat the Bees
    I actually had the Alphas over the Key O's, but what do I know, and fortunately it doesn't matter.
    I'll give the edge to the Gotham Knights.
    Mythical SF Chronicle scouting report: "That Jeff runs like a deer. Unfortunately, he also hits AND throws like one." I am Venus DeMilo - NO ARM! I can play like a big leaguer, I can field like Luzinski, run like Lombardi. The secret to managing is keeping the ones who hate you away from the undecided ones. I am a triumph of quantity over quality. I'm almost useful, every village needs an idiot.
    Good traders: MadHatter(2), BoofBonser26, StormSurge

  5. #25
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    Ok, it's all set. The Grahams, Obezags, and Knights are all in. Now we decide the wild card.

    Out of the teams left, who is worthy enough to make it to the semifinals?
    Is it BigRon's Post-WWII Bums?
    Is it Tyrus4189Cobb's Alphas?
    Is it Brad's Bees?

    Only YOU can decide.
    "Allen Sutton Sothoron pitched his initials off today."--1920s article

  6. #26
    Well, since BigRon's Post-WW2 Bums are better than the Gotham Knights, who are already in, I think it should be clear.

    Hahaha- just a little joking among friends, though I truly do believe my guys are better than the Knights- so, my vote for Wild Card is the Post-WW2 Bums.

  7. #27
    Quote Originally Posted by Wade8813 View Post
    You're right, I forgot about your platoons.

    You don't have any positions where it's lopsided in your favor.

    Of course, sticking Snider as your primary CFer also really hurts your fielding.

    .
    Campanella probably is the best HR hitting catcher in ML history, on a rate basis- WAY ahead of Posada.

    In terms of fielding, it's clear that you never saw Snider play. He was an elite CFer until his knee injury in the mid-50s, significantly better than Mantle, and at least as good as Puckett- actually better since he had an exceptional arm.

  8. #28
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tyrus4189Cobb View Post
    Ok, it's all set. The Grahams, Obezags, and Knights are all in. Now we decide the wild card.

    Out of the teams left, who is worthy enough to make it to the semifinals?
    Is it BigRon's Post-WWII Bums?
    Is it Tyrus4189Cobb's Alphas?
    Is it Brad's Bees?

    Only YOU can decide.
    I was going to say the Alphas but I looked it over and will go with the Bums
    Mythical SF Chronicle scouting report: "That Jeff runs like a deer. Unfortunately, he also hits AND throws like one." I am Venus DeMilo - NO ARM! I can play like a big leaguer, I can field like Luzinski, run like Lombardi. The secret to managing is keeping the ones who hate you away from the undecided ones. I am a triumph of quantity over quality. I'm almost useful, every village needs an idiot.
    Good traders: MadHatter(2), BoofBonser26, StormSurge

  9. #29
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tyrus4189Cobb View Post
    Ok, it's all set. The Grahams, Obezags, and Knights are all in. Now we decide the wild card.

    Out of the teams left, who is worthy enough to make it to the semifinals?
    Is it BigRon's Post-WWII Bums?
    Is it Tyrus4189Cobb's Alphas?
    Is it Brad's Bees?

    Only YOU can decide.
    Technically, TSS and Brad might still vote - isn't today the last day? As much as I want to continue (since I won my matchup), I think we should give them a chance, just in case.

  10. #30
    Quote Originally Posted by Wade8813 View Post
    Technically, TSS and Brad might still vote - isn't today the last day? As much as I want to continue (since I won my matchup), I think we should give them a chance, just in case.
    I was wondering the same thing.

  11. #31
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    Quote Originally Posted by BigRon View Post
    Campanella probably is the best HR hitting catcher in ML history, on a rate basis- WAY ahead of Posada.

    In terms of fielding, it's clear that you never saw Snider play. He was an elite CFer until his knee injury in the mid-50s, significantly better than Mantle, and at least as good as Puckett- actually better since he had an exceptional arm.
    Piazza was better than either of them (in both rate and totals). It's true that Campy's HR rates are better than I thought, but that's only because he had so many less games per season. He had only 2 seasons over 140 games, 1 season with exactly 130 games, 4 seasons with 120-129 games, and 3 seasons with under 119 games. Posada had a season with 151 games, 5 seasons with 140-149 games, etc (not to mention playing in more than 3x as many playoff games).

    Even then, Campanella averaged 7 more homers per 162 games - that doesn't quite compare with Banks' 18 more per 162. And Mantle had 25(!) more per 162 than Raines did.

    You're right, I never saw Snider field. But every metric I've seen says he wasn't very good, and I know that basing things solely on observation is shaky (observational bias, etc). You ask a bunch of people who witnessed a car crash what happened, and you can get several drastically different details. And car crash reports tend not to be skewed by hype (if you really like a player, you'll probably be predisposed to assume the best about them).
    Last edited by Wade8813; 07-12-2010 at 01:02 PM.

  12. #32
    Quote Originally Posted by Wade8813 View Post
    Piazza was better than either of them (in both rate and totals). It's true that Campy's HR rates are better than I thought, but that's only because he had so many less games per season. He had only 2 seasons over 140 games, 1 season with exactly 130 games, 4 seasons with 120-129 games, and 3 seasons with under 119 games. Posada had a season with 151 games, 5 seasons with 140-149 games, etc (not to mention playing in more than 3x as many playoff games).

    Even then, Campanella averaged 7 more homers per 162 games - that doesn't quite compare with Banks' 18 more per 162. And Mantle had 25(!) more per 162 than Raines did.

    You're right, I never saw Snider field. But every metric I've seen says he wasn't very good, and I know that basing things solely on observation is shaky (observational bias, etc). You ask a bunch of people who witnessed a car crash what happened, and you can get several drastically different details. And car crash reports tend not to be skewed by hype (if you really like a player, you'll probably be predisposed to assume the best about them).
    Well, we digress away from the playoffs, but....

    Piazza's HR rates are slightly higher than Campanella's, but Piazza also hit in the highest HR rate era in history, about 9% higher than Campy's era. My point is that Campanella was a far greater home run threat than Posada ever was- and he was.

    In terms of Snider's fielding, that's the problem with looking at stats- new or old- without clearly understanding context. Snider played half his games in a fairly cramped CF- he played next to other very good defensive OFers, e.g. Furillo, Pafko, then Amoros, so he didn't have to protect lousy corner outfielders like Ashburn, Maddux, and some others did. The Dodger pitching staff of that era was the highest K staff in baseball, meaning fewer balls in play, and fewer fielding opportunities. Interestingly, although they were a high K staff, several of their top pitchers were basically ground ball pitchers- Erskine, Roe, Labine, etc.

    I'll openly admit that I'm a big Duke Snider fan. But, don't take my word for it. Read newspapers, magazines from that era and see what the consensus was on Snider's fielding. The consensus was that it was outstanding. Just because you saw a stat that shows his TC/game around 2.5 doesn't mean that he wasn't good. You've got to look at and understand the circumstances.

    Conversely, Ashburn's stats make him look superhuman in CF. And, he WAS very good. But, a big centerfield, a staff that didn't strike out a whole lot of batters, a staff that threw zillions of fly balls, mediocre to lousy corner OFers, all conspire make his stats look better than reality. His big assist totals are a result of his weak arm- everybody ran on him, and he threw some of them out. Snider had pedestrian assist totals- he had a great arm and guys didn't test him.
    Last edited by BigRon; 07-13-2010 at 10:18 AM.

  13. #33
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    Looks like Wade doesn't need to vote. We now have our semifinals.

    Key Obezags vs. Gotham Knights
    Post-WWII Bums vs. N.A. Grahams

    Let's get our final two in ASAP, sound good?
    Last edited by Tyrus4189Cobb; 07-13-2010 at 01:40 PM.
    "Allen Sutton Sothoron pitched his initials off today."--1920s article

  14. #34
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    Quote Originally Posted by RuthMayBond View Post
    I was going to say the Alphas but I looked it over and will go with the Bums
    You are no longer my friend.
    "Allen Sutton Sothoron pitched his initials off today."--1920s article

  15. #35
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    Quote Originally Posted by BigRon View Post
    Piazza's HR rates are slightly higher than Campanella's, but Piazza also hit in the highest HR rate era in history, about 9% higher than Campy's era. My point is that Campanella was a far greater home run threat than Posada ever was- and he was.
    Probably the biggest reason for the high HR rates is steroids - unless you think Posada was on steroids, then any era adjustment will be off. And I agree that Campanella was a bigger HR threat - and as I said, his advantage in HR rate was higher than I thought because I didn't realize how much less he played. So I (more or less) agree with you. But Banks had a far bigger power differential compared to Larkin (and actually did it while playing more games), and Mantle had an even bigger one than Banks.

    In terms of Snider's fielding, that's the problem with looking at stats- new or old- without clearly understanding context. Snider played half his games in a fairly cramped CF- he played next to other very good defensive OFers, e.g. Furillo, Pafko, then Amoros, so he didn't have to protect lousy corner outfielders like Ashburn, Maddux, and some others did. The Dodger pitching staff of that era was the highest K staff in baseball, meaning fewer balls in play, and fewer fielding opportunities. Interestingly, although they were a high K staff, several of their top pitchers were basically ground ball pitchers- Erskine, Roe, Labine, etc.
    I agree - it's important to look at context. Unfortunately, it takes a lifetime of effort to look at the context on everyone.

    I'll openly admit that I'm a big Duke Snider fan. But, don't take my word for it. Read newspapers, magazines from that era and see what the consensus was on Snider's fielding. The consensus was that it was outstanding. Just because you saw a stat that shows his TC/game around 2.5 doesn't mean that he wasn't good. You've got to look at and understand the circumstances.
    While it's certainly a good sign for a player when all the media views him a certain way, it's only a sign. They whiff completely on a few players (Jeter for example).

    Quote Originally Posted by Tyrus4189Cobb View Post
    Looks like Wade doesn't need to vote. We now have our semifinals.

    Key Obezags vs. Gotham Knights
    Post-WWII Bums vs. N.A. Grahams

    Let's get our final two in ASAP, sound good?
    Key Obezags vs. Gotham Knights
    Post-WWII Bums vs. N.A. Grahams

    The Key Obezags have the best hitting, but they're not as good as they seem when you account for steroids. Their pitching is pretty bad, and their fielding is horrendous. My hitting is right behind his, but my pitching and fielding are far better.

    The second match was harder to determine. The NA Grahams have stellar pitching, but their hitting is ugly. I gave the edge to the Bums, but it could easily go either way.

  16. #36
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tyrus4189Cobb View Post
    You are no longer my friend.
    I could rename my team
    Not
    Making
    Endearments

    You wouldn't believe the other stupid thing I did.
    Maybe you would
    Mythical SF Chronicle scouting report: "That Jeff runs like a deer. Unfortunately, he also hits AND throws like one." I am Venus DeMilo - NO ARM! I can play like a big leaguer, I can field like Luzinski, run like Lombardi. The secret to managing is keeping the ones who hate you away from the undecided ones. I am a triumph of quantity over quality. I'm almost useful, every village needs an idiot.
    Good traders: MadHatter(2), BoofBonser26, StormSurge

  17. #37
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    Votes, RMB and BigRon?
    "Allen Sutton Sothoron pitched his initials off today."--1920s article

  18. #38
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tyrus4189Cobb View Post
    Votes, RMB?
    Posts 24 & 28?
    Mythical SF Chronicle scouting report: "That Jeff runs like a deer. Unfortunately, he also hits AND throws like one." I am Venus DeMilo - NO ARM! I can play like a big leaguer, I can field like Luzinski, run like Lombardi. The secret to managing is keeping the ones who hate you away from the undecided ones. I am a triumph of quantity over quality. I'm almost useful, every village needs an idiot.
    Good traders: MadHatter(2), BoofBonser26, StormSurge

  19. #39
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    Quote Originally Posted by RuthMayBond View Post
    Posts 24 & 28?
    That's pretty clever - voting for round 2 before round 1 is even finished...

  20. #40
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    OK, what did I screw up now?
    Mythical SF Chronicle scouting report: "That Jeff runs like a deer. Unfortunately, he also hits AND throws like one." I am Venus DeMilo - NO ARM! I can play like a big leaguer, I can field like Luzinski, run like Lombardi. The secret to managing is keeping the ones who hate you away from the undecided ones. I am a triumph of quantity over quality. I'm almost useful, every village needs an idiot.
    Good traders: MadHatter(2), BoofBonser26, StormSurge

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