Is Mariano Rivera REALLY a HOFer?

[dgarza]

Mariano's off to a great "start"!

How have pitchers fared through their 1000th IP season?

  Cnt Player            ERA+   IP   From  To   Ages
+----+-----------------+----+------+----+----+-----+
    1 Mariano Rivera     199 1023.2 1995 2008 25-38 
    2 Mordecai Brown     158 1172.2 1903 1907 26-30 
    3 Joe Wood           155 1001.2 1908 1912 18-22 
    4 John Clarkson      153 1231.2 1882 1886 20-24 
    5 Dan Quisenberry    150 1036.2 1979 1989 26-36 
    6 Trevor Hoffman     147 1042   1993 2009 25-41 
    7 John Franco        147 1000.2 1984 1998 23-37
    8 Kid Nichols        146 1302.1 1890 1892 20-22 
    9 Bob Caruthers      146 1293.1 1884 1887 20-23 
   10 Al Spalding        146 1159.2 1871 1873 20-22

[brett]

Originally Posted by dgarza

If Hoffman may deserve on record setting (a 4 year feat), then Fingers and Smith should as well (12+ year feats).

Hoffman is better than Fingers, Smith or Sutter.

Fingers has a 119 ERA+. Relievers as a group are historically in the 120s!

Fingers IP/ERA+ stretches
1701/119
1377/130
1137/134
Career WHIP: 1.156
Saves: 341

Smith
1289/131
1007/136
Saves 478

Gossage
1198/156
1315/149
1590/139

Sutter
890/152
1042/136

Quisenberry
726/171
895/162
1043/146

Hoffman
1042/147
952/153
Career WHIP: 1.041
Saves 591

Some comparisons:

1) Quiz matches Sutter in IP with a better ERA+ 146 to 136.

2) Quiz and Hoffman are two of just 7 pitchers not in the hall who are not topped by anyone outside the hall in both IP and ERA+. The list:

Blylevin, Kevin Brown, Schilling, Quiz, SJ Wood, Hoffman, Rivera

Hoffman has extended the record by over 100. He has been the first to 500 and will be the first to 600. 4 years ago I never would have voted for him, but when someone continues to be effective beyond expectations it improves their case.

I still would stick with this:

Mixed roles:
Eck and Wilhelm deserve it but need their relief and starting time.

Closers:
Rivera is by FAR the most dominant CLOSER ever. He deserves it. Hoffman is FAR behind. Smith might be as good. I'll grant that Smith could probably have had almost 600 saves in the current short save environment. Neither should be in based on value, but Hoffman is an active pitcher extending the record. OK lets say neither.

Firemen: (guys who put out rallies, and literally saved games with 1+ innings of work primarily)

Gossage has a hall of fame stretch
1198/156
1315/149
1590/139
which is held down by a few early developmental years as a starter. He is by FAR the best of the 1+ save men-well Wilhelm was probably as good as a fireman and also proved he was a good starter.

[J W]

Good call on Quisenberry. One day perhaps the new Vet Committee will take a close look at his career.

[J W]

Originally Posted by Greg Maddux's Biggest Fan

Just taking another look at Rivera's post season escapes is a thing to behold. This past playoffs, he pitched 16 IP only yielding 1 ER and 10 hits. For his career, he is now 8-1 in 133 IP with 39 SV and an 0.773 WHIP! I don't think they'll ever be a more dominant showing over similar innings in my lifetime - all done in the most crucial game situations and often more 1 2/3 innings or more.

It's been asked many times before but I still haven't found the answer: How can someone who throws the same pitch over & over continue to dominate hitters so thoroughly? I'm still dumbfounded by his results considering a batter only has to look for 1 pitch. That cut fastball is probably the single most dominant pitch by any pitcher in baseball history.

As a lifetime Oriole fan, I anxiously await the day that Mariano Rivera announces his retirement.

[dgarza]

Originally Posted by brett

Fingers has a 119 ERA+. Relievers as a group are historically in the 120s!

Actually, this is too high of an estimate.

80% of career as a reliever:

1500+ IP = median 115-116 ERA+

1000+ IP = 112 ERA+

500+ IP = 109 ERA+

250+ IP = 105 ERA+

100+ IP = 101 ERA+

[beisbolfiebre]

Future Famer - no doubt, there.

[RyanExpress30]

In a word, YES. In three words, without a doubt.

[dabigyankeeman]

If the point of this thread is to ask whether or not Mariano Rivera is a hall of famer, than this is really thread is a moot point (no offense to the starter of the thread or the posters here), because if anybody ever deserved to be in the hall, its Mo.

As to other relievers getting in the hall, i think you have to judge each player by comparing them to the players who also played that position, so therefore i think more relief specialists should be in the hall.