Mike Epstein

[getjiggywitit]

Do you see what I see

I see palm up palm down here at the point of contact.What is he a stealth of a split second away from hitting the ball.I see palm up palm down,dont you?? end of what story??...lol

[Stealth]

I see palm up palm down here at the point of contact.What is he a stealth of a split second away from hitting the ball.I see palm up palm down,dont you?? end of what story??...lol

And the barell is above the hands to, right......................

I guess you see what you want to see - time to move on.

[Steve Englishbey]

Quote from getjiggywitit :

"You mention Steve Englishbey.Go to his website and look at the kid swinging the bat.Gorgeous swing,but purely rotational in that he spins on a back foot that rotates on the ball of his foot,unlike Mr.Bonds who finishes off on his tippy toe,and also Ted Williams along with many other greats.By finishing on their tippy toe it is proof positive that these guys are weight transfer hitters.Weight going from back to the center position as you notice when they finish their swings their heads are in between their feet if you draw a line from the top of their heads to the ground in between their feet.That's what Hudgens teaches.This video shows a kid who does not finsh like Bonds in that he is strictly rotational,hes clearly not on top of his toe check it out http://www.englishbeyhitting.com/. if this kid is not doing what Bonds is ."

............"look at the kid.........

.........."video shows a kid".......

Well I just had my 53rd birthday .........and have been feeling a little tired.

But hell ,these comments have reinvigorated me !!!

I am feeling a youthful surge allready!!

"The kid"


ps : It might be helpful to understand the "intent/goal" of this particular swing ,ie a "modified " one -handed swing with goal being distance [power].
The goal /intent has a good deal to do with the manner in which THIS ONE SWING was unloaded.

I would further add here that I do disagree with your characterization as to the "kids swing" lacking a shift of the center mass forward .

And would also add that you and I probably have a different defintion of the term "spinning ."

Meaning here that the actions of the back foot are not necessarily indicative of what I would define as "spinning ."

Nor would I characterize the "kids " swing here as "spinning."

[GetYourBestSwing]

It seems to me that many of these theories have been around since time (baseball that is) began. "Rotational" vs "Linear": "Weight Back" vs. Upright (or even off the Front Foot").
The ball can only respond to Bat speed and Position and Relative Orientation at contact! And how you maximize this bat speed for a given situation and pitch will always, to some extent, be individual.
Rotational - Ted Williams
Linear or Rotational (depending on the pitch) Stan Musial.
Short Compact swing - Johnny Mize.
Weight back or forward - again Stan Musial.
He would sometimes even have his back foot off the ground before he uncocked hes wrists to drive the ball. But when he "Turned On" the ball, his weight was back.
I played Baseball from 1944 to 1960, (and was a serious student of the game), Fast pitch softball for a while, and ended up playing Slow pitch softball until 1999.
The one thing that is a certainty is that hitting style is individual in allof these sports, and must be tailored to the individual and circumstances.
As only one example - when I learned to play on open fields, a hard hit line drive was preferred. A gap shot could roll for a home run, potentially. A long fly ball, hit with the same velocity, would more often than not, merely be a long out. But if a fly ball was needed to advance a runner from third base, I kept my weight back while using the same swing.
If you review games from the 30s and 40s, most hitters tried to hit line drives. Now most hitters try to hit home runs. All they have to do is get a fly ball to land a few feet beyond the fence, whereas, for many reasons (a subject of another thread, I think) it was less possible for most hitters in the past.
THE POINT IS - NO HITTING METHOD OR STYLE CAN BE UNIVERSAL. BUT THERE IS ONE BASIC PRINCIPLE.
TO TEACH A BEGINNER TO HIT. START ONLY WITH THIS FUNDAMENTAL - AGRESSIVELY ATTACK THE BALL!
Technique comes later. I have seen too many little league players who have been so conditioned to "wait for a good pitch" that they will never be good hitters. The agressive hitters will learn with time to lay off a bad pitch, but if they have been mentally conditioned to wait to decide if they should swing, they are out of luck.

Cheers
Warren

If you give lessons to a kid and all you start with is "AGGRESSIVELY ATTACK THE BALL"..... then congratulate yourself for being in the business of how to ruin a kids swing.

There are points in the mechanics of a baseball swing that are universal.
1. Hitting Position- when a hitters front foot lands they are all virtually in the same position.
2. Start of the swing- how the hips start, how the barrel stays connected to the shoulder- all kinds of different terminology but it all looks the same in any good hitter- this part is extremely important to get to contact point correctly, looks basically the same in every good hitter.
3. Contact Point- this isn't even debatable- It's important how you get to contact point, but if you do it right, it will look virtually the same in every hitter.

Those 3 things to me are "UNIVERSAL." To me, its not even debatable that these things happen in a good swing- hence UNIVERSAL.

These things are individual style:
1. Stance- All kinds of different stances- open, where you start your hands- bla bla bla
2. Load- different ways to properly load- leg lift, no-stride, seperation....
3. Finish of the swing- some guys finish with 1 hand, others with 2, etc.

Individual style is where I am not going to clone hitters- let the hitters be athletes and have this be there own deal. if something in there individual style prevents them from doing one of the 3 universal parts of the swing- then it will be changed. Otherwise not.

it's crazy coaching in college what guys are taught in high school- most of them nothing. Theres good high school coaches on the boards it sounds like- i think it should be mandatory to pass a test to coach in high school baseball to make sure you teach the kids correctly and give them a chance!!!

[Jake Patterson]

He emphasizes knocking knuckles being in line during the stance which is vital with the palm up palm down effect at contact.

Wow! Who does that??? Here's Ortiz.
Ortiz knuckles.bmp

[tom.guerry]

Happy Birthday Steve.

Kumbaya.

[CoachB25]

Quote from getjiggywitit :


Well I just had my 53rd birthday .........and have been feeling a little tired.

But hell ,these comments have reinvigorated me !!!

I am feeling a youthful surge allready!!

53? Heck, I knew you were old but...

Now I know how to get you p.o.-ed. Call you a kid.

[getjiggywitit]

could someone tell me what to change

If my approach is hands back ,front foot to the pitcher.The heel toe process begins which transfers the weight from front to back,and begins the rotation of my back foot,and the inward turn of my back knee.As my back knee begins to turn so do my hips.My hands begin to start their path at this point.The path that they take should be what then???? short,what does short exactly mean then?? I though it was a knob to the ball then explode with the wrists at the point of contact.Hitting against a firm front leg.with of course good extension with the power "v" and a good follow through, either one handed or two handed.I thought the swing was a top hand punching motion and the bottom hand karate chop at an angle motion.What do i need to change in order to correct this type of swing??

[jima]

If you give lessons to a kid and all you start with is "AGGRESSIVELY ATTACK THE BALL"..... then congratulate yourself for being in the business of how to ruin a kids swing.

There are points in the mechanics of a baseball swing that are universal.
1. Hitting Position- when a hitters front foot lands they are all virtually in the same position.
2. Start of the swing- how the hips start, how the barrel stays connected to the shoulder- all kinds of different terminology but it all looks the same in any good hitter- this part is extremely important to get to contact point correctly, looks basically the same in every good hitter.
3. Contact Point- this isn't even debatable- It's important how you get to contact point, but if you do it right, it will look virtually the same in every hitter.

Those 3 things to me are "UNIVERSAL." To me, its not even debatable that these things happen in a good swing- hence UNIVERSAL.

These things are individual style:
1. Stance- All kinds of different stances- open, where you start your hands- bla bla bla
2. Load- different ways to properly load- leg lift, no-stride, seperation....
3. Finish of the swing- some guys finish with 1 hand, others with 2, etc.

Individual style is where I am not going to clone hitters- let the hitters be athletes and have this be there own deal. if something in there individual style prevents them from doing one of the 3 universal parts of the swing- then it will be changed. Otherwise not.

it's crazy coaching in college what guys are taught in high school- most of them nothing. Theres good high school coaches on the boards it sounds like- i think it should be mandatory to pass a test to coach in high school baseball to make sure you teach the kids correctly and give them a chance!!!

Its just my guess, but I bet that Mr. Stover has played more baseball than you will ever hope to play...how do you ruin a kids swing by starting out aggresively?...you can't. So you want H.S. coaches to past a test...here's guessing that Mr. Stover would pass any test with flying colors. You sound like another frustrated athlete who is blaming past coaches on not having a MLB career. What is this bitter "congratulate yourself" stuff and in your humble opinion certain things are "not debateable". Dude, get over yourself.

[Jake Patterson]

it's crazy coaching in college what guys are taught in high school- most of them nothing. Theres good high school coaches on the boards it sounds like- i think it should be mandatory to pass a test to coach in high school baseball to make sure you teach the kids correctly and give them a chance!!!

Who would develop the test? We have trained nearly 1000 youth coaches and it amazes me what each coach takes away from each class, especially the skills training. If the best in the business can't agree on what is to be taught who would be responsible for developing the test and moderating it's compliance???

Here we do certify the coaches and they are licensed, but the training does not go as deep as specific skill's training. I feel this is unfortunate as I do agree there are good and bad ways of teaching skills.

[jbooth]

I thought it was a knob to the ball then explode with the wrists at the point of contact.Hitting against a firm front leg.with of course good extension with the power "v" and a good follow through, either one handed or two handed.I thought the swing was a top hand punching motion and the bottom hand karate chop at an angle motion.What do i need to change in order to correct this type of swing??

Depends on what you mean by knob to the ball. It means to change it from pointing at the ground, to pointing in the direction from which the ball is coming. It does NOT mean to move the knob toward the ball. The knob stays near your back shoulder for a LONG time. Then the knob goes around your body and up toward your front shoulder. NOT, down toward your front hip.

Extension is part of the follow through. The front elbow is bent on any pitch middle in, and only straightens AFTER the ball is hit. It kinda feels like a punch from the top hand, but it isn't from an extension into the ball, it's due to the back arm staying bent and close to the body.

Watch this video of Bonds 756. A baseball swing doesn't get any better than this. I paused it at contact, and slowed it down. There is no extension at contact. There is no knob to the ball.

And he doesn't line up his knocking knuckles, and neither did Mays, Aaron, Ruth, or Williams. The top 4 HR hitters of all-time, plus one of the best hitters period. Very few MLB hitters line up the knocking knuckles, but it doesn't mean you can't.

And he isn't hitting down through the ball. He catches it on the upswing.

http://wms17.streamhoster.com/firstp...56animated.wmv streaming

[Jake Patterson]

............"look at the kid.........

.........."video shows a kid".......
Well I just had my 53rd birthday .........and have been feeling a little tired.
But hell ,these comments have reinvigorated me !!!
I am feeling a youthful surge allready!!
"The kid"

At 52 I must be just a "babe."

[Jake Patterson]

Jiggy,
Much of what you believe indicates dated techniques and theories. I would consider looking at more conventional and current ways of teaching hitting. Take a look at Siggy's site (Found in Clips, Pics and Sites) and see for yourself what is true.

[GetYourBestSwing]

Its just my guess, but I bet that Mr. Stover has played more baseball than you will ever hope to play...how do you ruin a kids swing by starting out aggresively?...you can't. So you want H.S. coaches to past a test...here's guessing that Mr. Stover would pass any test with flying colors. You sound like another frustrated athlete who is blaming past coaches on not having a MLB career. What is this bitter "congratulate yourself" stuff and in your humble opinion certain things are "not debateable". Dude, get over yourself.

How do you ruin a kids swing by starting out "aggressively?"

what does that mean if you say that to a kid??? swing at every pitch thrown to them in short toss and bp? is that aggressive???

just attack the baseball huh? so a kid who has no idea how to load, how to get into hitting position..... no concept of balance and control of their body.... you want them to just swing aggressively?
let me rephrase it.... i would never teach a kid this way, it doesnt make any sense.
I would want to develop a sense of balance, sense of the strike zone, things like that before i told a kid to "swing aggressively."

Coaching in college- and I clearly stated not Mr. Stover or any high school coach on this board, I really didnt even know i responded to "Mr. Stovers" post.... but, kids that are talented enough to play in college are not taught a thing about having an approach and certainly not swing mechanics.
this leads me to believe there are many average kids- the kids not that talented like the ones that get the privelage of playing in college- that don't get the help they need to learn how to hit and end up quitting or just flat out not being good..... that was my point.

being "aggressive" can be a great thing- our team has finished in the top 10 in hitting the last 3 years in a row in the nation at our level- and on 0-0 counts in the last 3 years we are hitting .424.......... so i'll be the first to admit i love the concept of being "aggressive" but after you have learned how to hit... not to learn how to swing a bat.

[GetYourBestSwing]

Who would develop the test? We have trained nearly 1000 youth coaches and it amazes me what each coach takes away from each class, especially the skills training. If the best in the business can't agree on what is to be taught who would be responsible for developing the test and moderating it's compliance???

Here we do certify the coaches and they are licensed, but the training does not go as deep as specific skill's training. I feel this is unfortunate as I do agree there are good and bad ways of teaching skills.

I dont know what the test would encounter or who would develop- quite honestly I was just ranting on an issue that has bothered me for awhile. I just think there are way too many kids that aren't given the opportunity to learn the game, and in this case hit, because of coaches who don't know what they are doing and give wrong information... examples being squishing the bug, swinging down on the ball to create backspin, or total disregard of taking an athletic kid and not showing them anything.

Hell, it happens in college too, kind of silly of me to just say kids in high school- if you have anyway of learning the hitting approach at Stanford University- do it. It's crazy how many D1 schools just don't do it right. It's even crazier when the players at the respective school no they aren't being taught right and tell there hitting coaches to just let them do there own thing. lol

But anyway- onto Mike Epstein- i'd rather see a high school coach or instructor at least try to learn his methods rather than just teach what they think or what has been passed down onto them.

Video doesnt lie.